The firm I work for is considering Autodesk Revit. Has anyone used this application and, if so, has it improved efficiency? Also, how is the 3-D modeling?
i've been in it for about a year. unfortunately, we haven't done a similar project type as a second project yeah so we haven't seen as much an improvement in efficiency as we should. IT has to provide you the proper equipment and you must be smart when modelling or file size becomes a problem. it's definitely the wave of the future and more and more people are moving that direction quickly.
Going to Beginner Level Training this Wed, Thurs, Fri - The office is switching over soon...then we will do an office space - take the fax machine out to the pasture and mutilate it- except instead of a fax machine it will be a licence of autocad
Revit Architecture 2008 (the new release) will come out in April and this release entirely focused on performance and scalability. Plus it works on Vista, so you wouldn't need to split the model in several pieces like before. Scalability was the biggest issue in Revit, but with this new release, nothing will stand in anyone way to move to BIM/Revit.
Been doing Revit for 5 years now, wouldn't go back to acad for anything. We tried Archicad, like slitting your wrists and doing push ups in salt water, same amount of work, much much more pain. One other user I talked to claims that a job that required 10 people before in autocad, now requires 3 w/ revit.
j
Okay here's a summary of what Revit is... I'm not an expert, but I've taken a course in it, and I like it alot... Maybe some of the other people who have actually used in real practice can comment further... Sorry if I am telling you things you already know, but just want to help and I'm bored so... Here is my personal take on the value of Revit or a software like it:
AUTODESK REVIT IS TO AUTODESK AUTOCAD, AS MICROSOFT EXCEL IS TO MICROSOFT WORD.
The bottom line is, just like an accountant who has always kept their books by changing line items on a word processor might be able to do something quicker making changes to tables in a word processor rather than learning how to use a spreadsheet, a draftsperson who is expert at making drawings and changes in autocad will probably be able to do things faster using autocad than learning revit and doing it with revit... But like the spreadsheet, Revit, once learned is much more powerful and much faster than AutoCAD.
Revit is "parametric modelling", meaning, your numbers, lines and shapes, the dimensions of walls and elements, your text, dims, whatever are all (generally) parameters in a model... Basically like data in a database, or a behind the scenes spreadsheet that connects one thing you draw to the next thing you draw... so these things are no longer just dumb numbers and letters and lines and shapes, real data... "building information" (aka B.I.M. building information modelling/management)... but walls and floors or, custom components that you invent...
Revit makes all of your drawings on sheets views of a 3D model. Plans, sections, elevations, detail call outs, etc. If you move something in plan it automatically translates on all drawings. The callouts for details create new detail drawings, but you basically draft on top of those to add depth to the detail... the symbols and bugs etc. aren't just symbols but the real reference to the other sheet... So you drop in a section bug on your plan view with the "section tool", move it around to where you want to cut your section, and the moment you dropped in that section in plan, a new "view object" is created which IS that section... you can then look at that section... When you move the bug in your plan, the section is actually changing... Everything is a parameter that you can define, how section cuts read, hatches that are related to an element viewed in elevation, or viewed when cut, etc...
All text (page numbers, tags etc., names), are actual data in a database behind the scenes. Think excel vs. word. Your revenue number is your "revenue", not just some dumb characters in word. So you never have to change
When you move a wall in plan, it pulls all things that are linked to it, like the floorslab, etc. so (theoretically) changes happen simultaneously in all drawings. But in practice, it often means cleaning up stuff, you moved a wall and a warning pops up that if you move the wall it violates the connection to the slab above or something, so you maybe have to unlock the connection to the slab, as an example... basically, where you can cheat in a 2D representation, you can't in the 3D model so it will tell you when something doesn't make sense... Which on the one hand means you will notice everything... On the other hand it forces you to either have to deal with everything that doesn't really work or just turn a blind eye to it...
Basically, this all means, you don't spend as much time drafting, and making changes, but you have to know how to build the model of your whole building within the constraints of the program. I've heard that its not great for large scale projects and that its better for smaller projects... But I haven't tried to model anything larger than a small addition to a single family home.
Personally, if I ever run my own practice, I will use Revit... It saves manpower and is useful for working things out... You don't need an army of people picking up every little change on every sheet... You drop down plans in a plan view and it is automatically extruding walls to your set floor heights... Throw down 3 of these plans, add floors and you almost have sections finished... develop the details later... You create your wall types, which have the actual construction info contained in them, the sandwich of materials, etc. which you use as your wall schedule. But you can click any wall and change it to another wall type in your schedule at a click... It automatically changes the thickness of the wall in all drawings... Of course, then you can adjust where you want that change in thickness to align, so you have to go back in and fidget with it... Which maybe forces you to think about some other detail somewhere else, etc...
So you can't really get away with not knowing issues, you can still ignore them, but you will know about it, and you'll know youre ignoring a problem...
There are problems with it. It's not a great freeform modeller. You can do freeform stuff, basically as well as say in autocad, maybe better... but its still clunkier than 3D studio or microstation, etc. because, since everything is a "real object", a component in your model like a pierce of furniture or a wall, a window, a ceiling, a floor, a curtain wall mullion, rail, etc. Everything that is free form is also a component, simply a "custom component". Custom components are made by modifying existing components in your library or you could start from scratch...
Apart from just working drawings of your model, you can have other views of your model... It renders pretty well if you get used to it, sun studies, animation, etc...
So that's the basics of what Revit is...
Although I have never used Archicad, it looks very similar... Basically Archicad is the direct competitor of Revit... Revit is the autodesk version of Archicad... Think Excel to Lotus123... Bentley Architecture / Triforma is also parametric modelling, although I think Archicad and Revit are alot closer in how they approached this... Bentley's products use references and extractions to create drawings. Revit and Archicad generally contain everything in one model, which means that if the model gets really complex and huge it might slow the software down (although I've never actually built anything in Revit at a scale where I experienced any of these issues)... Bentley's approach avoids these processing issues by splitting files up... But on the other hand, Microstation / Triforma then lose alot of the advantages of speed and connectivity between all objects. In other words, as things are right now, Microstation is better for larger projects, ArchiCAD and Revit are better for smaller projects.
Personally, I'm a Revit Fan... Can you tell? I know its pretty nerdy to be a fan of a software package, but if you try it and learn how to use it, it becomes actually fun and saves time and manpower for even better results... Your whole project including your sheets, every little detail, a model you can take views of, walkthrough animations, etc. are all in one neat little package... Just my 2 cents, and I've never actually gone through a whole project working in Revit or used it while working in an office...
OMG... sorry for that long post... Its basically practically "intro to revit" tutorial or a revit sales seminar... Oh well it's a holiday tomorrow which is maybe why I have time to rant about computer software...
Regarding 3D modelling, I find it easy. If you are just dropping standard type plans like partition walls, doors, windows, stairs, etc. maybe multiple levels, a roof etc... then it will take you maybe a day to model your whole building. You are modelling by basically "drawing in plan" with a wall tool which shows its thickness and automatically extrudes the height to the ceiling.. You can go in and modify later... You drop in windows which are objects in your walls, which have the intelligence of reading as proper simbols in plan view but are actually 3D objects when you view your model in any 3D view... They will also read correctly if you section through them.
Most standard construction, you can throw in using the standard families that come defaulted with Revit... Stairs same, there are stairs tools... You drop in a stair and pull it and it adds treads... It tells you if you don't make the height of the floor, the stair object reads with the proper notation and information, treads and riser info etc. in all drawings automatically... You have to tweak to "debug" your stair which basically means make it work with the reality of the floorslabs, etc.
A railing is a component of a stair or floor, a furniture object sits on a floor... A mullion and a piece of glazing, and the grid that those things are attached to are all objects, components of a curtain wall... So... you can very very quickly model things using the given families that come with the software...
And I think there are wall types that are generic 6" partitions etc...
The key then is using Revit for custom details. Custom details mean actually freeform modelling custom families, which is the trickier part of Revit, but when you are able to do it, makes it much more powerful than a dumb geometry modeller... You can do dumb geometry but it is clunkier... The key to custom families is to think about designing those families like you are writing a computer program or programming in excel while you are modelling... You can basically parameterize, create rules on how a particular object works... Like assign the height of your custom table to a variable "height"... your diameter of the post supports for your table "post diameter"... the thickness of the table's top as "top thickness'... Once done, your custom table is not just a piece of dumb model... It is a custom furniture object that you can drop on any floor... It knows that it sits on a floor plane, and you can drop those tables in at the click of a button... (similar to a blockin autocad)... But that block has parameters that you can define in that instance, so here the table is 34" high, here it is 38" high... Basically, if you made a custom window detail in one project, you could just drop it into any other wall in any other project, and even modify the parameter of it to make it look totally different... In other words, just as in excel you have to know a bit of the program to do custom tables, and you can program calculations and relationships and rules... You can do the same in Revit.
If Revit were like a complex version of "The Sims" computer game, where you are both builder and programmer... you can basically drop in bits and pieces of a house, then Custom Families are the tools that are already built into Revit to allow you to program one of the "Sim furnitures or wall pieces" etc. that you can drop into your house... You program how it works... If you were doing say a custom guardrail, you could say that it is always a certain height, or you could make "height" a parameter... You could say that it always hangs 2" off the edge of a slab, or you could make it a parameter where it is connected to the slab in each instance...
When making the custom families, you are modeling like in another program, except you are assigning variables to the object... Programming your model...
unrelated, but this popped up in the press release for AutoCAD 2008:
Autodesk Impression 2008
Autodesk Impression software is Autodesk's response to thousands of customers who asked for a tool that would let them produce illustrations. Incorporating feedback from more than 30,000 Autodesk Labs beta testers, Impression is now available for purchase. The application enables users to create presentation-ready graphics directly from DWG and DWF files, boosting teams' productivity and allowing clients to experience ideas and explore design alternatives while a project is in development. With Impression, users can quickly produce high-quality illustrations and renderings that have a hand-drawn look, while leveraging the value of their CAD data.
Highlights of Impression 2008 features include:
--Easy-to-use tools for applying pre-built and custom styles. Styles are comprised of everything from strokes that look like pencil work, to fills representing markers and watercolors. Custom styles can be developed to create a "signature style" for a specific project or for use by everyone in a firm.
--Time-saving features such as Style Mapping.These features let users create multiple images that all have the same look and feel.
--Rapid updating tools such as CAD Geometry Update.These tools allow users to update and change illustrations as a design develops.
Good news, but there's always my personal fear that it might be clumsy and hokey...
I've been hoping that Revit and other BIM software will help architects get more into construction management. I see potential for the non-creative/paper-pushing roles of construction management to be handled by the software such as cost estimation. You think?
What other BIM packages are out there? I've played around with Bentley Studio (an expansion of Microstation) and it seems to have a lot of potential. But it also seems frustratingly complex and counter-intuitive to use. Is Revit this way?
Has anyone used other BIM software packages and, if so, how do they compare to Revit? I know that Autodesk has been putting a huge amount of marketing money into Revit, but is it hype or is this the very best BIM software out there?
Also, how difficult is it to use Revit? If I were moving from Autocad (in which I'm only moderately proficient,) how long would it honestly take me to learn it?
the firm i work for switched to revit just before i got here, so i've been learning it with them for the past few months. our firm is a very design-oriented one, with a lot of custom details and complex geometry, so i've found that revit can be a little tricky for our applications.. however, even so, the advantages are obvious and apparent, especially if your firm does more spec-oriented work with a lot of typical details. it's definitely the future of architectural drafting, but it is also still definitely on the steep-part of its development curve.
take a class that probobly the best thing to do...just finished w/ my 3 day class....it was fuckin awesome
-my office hasnt made the compete switch to revit yet so i will be back on acad for the remainder of the project i am workin on. :-(
-then onto revit for the next one.
-basically what i decribe revit as - its CAD stripped down to its basic capabilities(drawing lines on a computer) w/ giant muscles(modeling architecture)
farwest...if you are at all proficient with Autocad...taking the level 1 class will teach you everything you need to do. You'll get the hang of Revit fairly quickly. If you have any experience working in 3d (FormZ especially) it'll be even easier.
Our office recently acquired REVIT, and have used it as a great visual tool for our residential projects in the schematic phases. For one, the simultaneous construction makes is quicker to build the plans, sections and elevations, and create multiple perspective views and walk-throughs. So far it's been very well-received by our clients.
Revit was developed as a parametric modelling software from the ground up. It was developed by a startup company and was later bought by autodesk which began dumping R & D money into it.... Its a smart intuitive well designed software which was made with BIM in mind...
Triforma (Microstation) and ADT (Autocad) on the other hand are what happens when you take a 2D drafting software, evolve to 3D modelling, and then evolve to BIM... They try to incorporate everything but they fail to really get the new things right... They weren't designed with BIM in mind from the outset, and are more refined as drafting softwares.
Microstation succeeds as a 3D modeller but doesn't have the well thought out user oriented design of Revit when it comes to parametric modelling... In Revit, everything is parametric, and it is easier to pickup and run with I think... Microstation has more of an additive learning curve: 2D to 3D to BIM, which on the one hand gives you lots of crutches to fall back on if you ever cannot figure BIM out (since there are no 3rd party textbooks that teach you how to use Bentley Triforma)... But these crutches make the switch to BIM more difficult IMO because it's easy to fall back to just drafting everything to avoid the learning pains... (And since its a slow learning process, who can really afford to learn it on the job?)
But I've heard that for microstation, to really take advantage of the power of BIM I think you need to get 'bentley generative components', which is equivalent to the custom families aspect of Revit. I've never tried generative components, but I've heard that it is very powerful... Maybe somebody who has used it might be able to weigh in?
I may have spoke too soon. There is no real chat about this on The BIM Lists...afterall.
well,
I am still trying to find out if that was a rumor. It was all over my school though. Our school has a pretty tight relationship with Archicad. They don;t even teach Revit there. My apologies.
Anyway, yeah I consider BIM the lowest denominator of what all have to embrace and participate in. It is certainly exciting for new users, and easy to go on and on about. I also remember the first time I ever drew line in CAD and I was so proud...anyway REVIT and ARCHiCAD are bith so easy to learn even for monkeys ,..blahblah.
hmm so i might go from leaving a small hand-drafting firm, go to grad school for 3 years and come out having to learn revit?
i dunno if i should rejoice at the possibility of never having use autocad as a draftsman, or weep that i will again walk out of a university only know outdated drafting techniques.
My firm is switching at the start of 2008 and I can't wait!
Phase I of training has already started. Basically, the company president said too many contractors were getting ahead of us on this so it's time for change.
and the same positive metaphor in reverse, seen in this way: entry is simpler in revit (e.g., is there a way to have acad auto number attributes by door type?) as entry is easier in a word processor.
But in practice, it often means cleaning up stuff, you moved a wall and a warning pops up that if you move the wall it violates the connection to the slab above or something, so you maybe have to unlock the connection to the slab, as an example...
yes, and you normally expect that to happen because revit allows you stay aware of the reality of what you are working on. the common problem with this kind of edit, is that revit can perform edits with some inaccuracy. eg, you do a major paste, yet the copy doesn't insert exactly correctly. revit responds with a jillion error pops, so you just undo and try to paste again slightly differently.
also some error alerts cannot be ignored (revit refuses to continue). I'd prefer that the user can temp override revit's refusal, because user expects to fix later. sometimes the user has a planned process, and knows fixing the error later is more efficient overall.
read jaja's link. formulas (not just constants, boundaries, or on-the-fly entry) in the properties. wow. (too bad the screenshots are too small to see the examples of formulas)
I just finished a brief introduction to revit at uni and like what everyone is saying, "it is cad for monkeys" - it was a complete dumbing down of cad. Although its quick, simple and easy to learn, I only use revit for early conceptual designs.
Don't use BIM! - Long office hours are in danger. (yes – only endless office sessions make you a valuable employee) “Zooming in” –“Zooming out” in AutoCAD, counting door / window tags and put it in excel, changing floor plan > elevation > section > floor plan > elevation > section > floor plan > elevation > section... drawing polylines for area analyse – extracting attributes into excel, etc. Moreover you have to give your drafters more responsibility – which maybe results in higher salaries (no cheap interns)! Worst of all: you immediately see the building as a model! No more cheating and tricking the client! So hands-off BIM!!
we havent switched over to revit yet... but we are using ADT which is the precusor ... its really nice once you get ahang of it, lends itself to producing greater detail faster and making the 3d scheme available that much faster as well.. ill never go back to the regular cad releases.
Revit ties into a spec program, if you are diligent in assigning uniformat numbers to your construction elements, it will jam out a pretty decent spec for you, as well as estimates, energy analysis and data that you will never need. Plus it can coordinate changes with consultants, check for interference between structural and architectural elements...but you have to know what your doing or it will do nothing more than AutoCAD.
j
I just got a "invite" to an "Experience the Possibilities tour" of Autodesk live - aka Revit. My office isn't planning on switching anytime soon (within the next 10 years) and so I am wondering if you guys think I should take the class on my own. I am just an intern, only graduated in 06, and the class in on a Tuesday, so I'd probably have to take a vacation day. But I can't help but feel this would be good for MY future, even if it isn't for the company.
Should I plan to go? How much can you learn in 1 day class/tour?
I went to a revit 3 hr introduction at one of the local distributors offices (not autodesk). It was mostly a "if you're interested in this software our company can do a much more in depth series of classes for you for $$" type of thing. It was nice cause we all had our own computers so we could follow along. Don't know if this is the type of thing you're talking about. It wasn't a waste of time and it probably wouldn't be a waste of your's either but i can't say i learned much that i couldn't have learned on my own there. One problem was that it was open to anyone so i was grouped in with computer semi-illiterate persons slowing everyone else down (i don't mean people who aren't familiar with the program, i mean people who can barely turn a computer on, "wait, how did you just do that?.."can you show me that again"...to a ridiculous degree).. you shouldn't have to take a vacation day for it in my opinion, but that's between you and your boss.
i was fortunate enough that we have revit in our office and was able to just sit down and do one of our smaller schematic jobs in it (we do 3d pres models here anyway so we rendered it in MAX later but didn't use it CDs) but it was in my opinion the absolute best way to get introduced to the program. Download the free tutorial (i assume this is still available) and refer heavily to forums like AUGI.com. Even if your office isn't planning to 'switch' soon (trust me, even the ones that are planning to 'switch' often don't, mine included) you might be able to convince your boss to buy 1 or 2 copies for the office if you show what it can do.
Yeah, we have a "cad" guy for that, and they didnt bite because, as with many offices I'm sure, there were some people who just WOULDN'T change their way of doing things.
It does seem like the "check this out, then buy a class if you're interested kind of thing though. Maybe I will look at it online and see. My boss didn't seem to think it was worth the time for me to go, something about how what we sell is time, and you are worth more to us here doing redlines. So it'd probably be a vacation day. I just didn't know if it would teach me enough to be able to apply for jobs at other firms that use the software.
I'd go then.. just as a professional and ethical slap in your bosses face. And might i add that from the few things you've said about your company i hope you're doing this cause you're actively seeking out a new job cause it sounds like that might be in your best interest. The first thing you should figure out is if you even like the software enough to want to work for a firm that uses it, the seminar might help with that.
(also get the most out of the free trial download, you could definitely learn enough in 30 days to get your foot in the door somewhere else)
Autodesk Revit - Thoughts?
The firm I work for is considering Autodesk Revit. Has anyone used this application and, if so, has it improved efficiency? Also, how is the 3-D modeling?
i've been in it for about a year. unfortunately, we haven't done a similar project type as a second project yeah so we haven't seen as much an improvement in efficiency as we should. IT has to provide you the proper equipment and you must be smart when modelling or file size becomes a problem. it's definitely the wave of the future and more and more people are moving that direction quickly.
Going to Beginner Level Training this Wed, Thurs, Fri - The office is switching over soon...then we will do an office space - take the fax machine out to the pasture and mutilate it- except instead of a fax machine it will be a licence of autocad
Revit Architecture 2008 (the new release) will come out in April and this release entirely focused on performance and scalability. Plus it works on Vista, so you wouldn't need to split the model in several pieces like before. Scalability was the biggest issue in Revit, but with this new release, nothing will stand in anyone way to move to BIM/Revit.
ArchiCAD has been doing this for years...
A friend has been working on Revit recently and desperately wants to be back with ArchiCAD.
I heard through the grapevine that Vectorworks have bought up Graphisoft, so who knows what the future will bring.
We are switching to Revit...and it's "wicked awesome"...no more layers, no more chasing stupid little changes through 37 sheets...
Been doing Revit for 5 years now, wouldn't go back to acad for anything. We tried Archicad, like slitting your wrists and doing push ups in salt water, same amount of work, much much more pain. One other user I talked to claims that a job that required 10 people before in autocad, now requires 3 w/ revit.
j
Okay here's a summary of what Revit is... I'm not an expert, but I've taken a course in it, and I like it alot... Maybe some of the other people who have actually used in real practice can comment further... Sorry if I am telling you things you already know, but just want to help and I'm bored so... Here is my personal take on the value of Revit or a software like it:
AUTODESK REVIT IS TO AUTODESK AUTOCAD, AS MICROSOFT EXCEL IS TO MICROSOFT WORD.
The bottom line is, just like an accountant who has always kept their books by changing line items on a word processor might be able to do something quicker making changes to tables in a word processor rather than learning how to use a spreadsheet, a draftsperson who is expert at making drawings and changes in autocad will probably be able to do things faster using autocad than learning revit and doing it with revit... But like the spreadsheet, Revit, once learned is much more powerful and much faster than AutoCAD.
Revit is "parametric modelling", meaning, your numbers, lines and shapes, the dimensions of walls and elements, your text, dims, whatever are all (generally) parameters in a model... Basically like data in a database, or a behind the scenes spreadsheet that connects one thing you draw to the next thing you draw... so these things are no longer just dumb numbers and letters and lines and shapes, real data... "building information" (aka B.I.M. building information modelling/management)... but walls and floors or, custom components that you invent...
Revit makes all of your drawings on sheets views of a 3D model. Plans, sections, elevations, detail call outs, etc. If you move something in plan it automatically translates on all drawings. The callouts for details create new detail drawings, but you basically draft on top of those to add depth to the detail... the symbols and bugs etc. aren't just symbols but the real reference to the other sheet... So you drop in a section bug on your plan view with the "section tool", move it around to where you want to cut your section, and the moment you dropped in that section in plan, a new "view object" is created which IS that section... you can then look at that section... When you move the bug in your plan, the section is actually changing... Everything is a parameter that you can define, how section cuts read, hatches that are related to an element viewed in elevation, or viewed when cut, etc...
All text (page numbers, tags etc., names), are actual data in a database behind the scenes. Think excel vs. word. Your revenue number is your "revenue", not just some dumb characters in word. So you never have to change
When you move a wall in plan, it pulls all things that are linked to it, like the floorslab, etc. so (theoretically) changes happen simultaneously in all drawings. But in practice, it often means cleaning up stuff, you moved a wall and a warning pops up that if you move the wall it violates the connection to the slab above or something, so you maybe have to unlock the connection to the slab, as an example... basically, where you can cheat in a 2D representation, you can't in the 3D model so it will tell you when something doesn't make sense... Which on the one hand means you will notice everything... On the other hand it forces you to either have to deal with everything that doesn't really work or just turn a blind eye to it...
Basically, this all means, you don't spend as much time drafting, and making changes, but you have to know how to build the model of your whole building within the constraints of the program. I've heard that its not great for large scale projects and that its better for smaller projects... But I haven't tried to model anything larger than a small addition to a single family home.
Personally, if I ever run my own practice, I will use Revit... It saves manpower and is useful for working things out... You don't need an army of people picking up every little change on every sheet... You drop down plans in a plan view and it is automatically extruding walls to your set floor heights... Throw down 3 of these plans, add floors and you almost have sections finished... develop the details later... You create your wall types, which have the actual construction info contained in them, the sandwich of materials, etc. which you use as your wall schedule. But you can click any wall and change it to another wall type in your schedule at a click... It automatically changes the thickness of the wall in all drawings... Of course, then you can adjust where you want that change in thickness to align, so you have to go back in and fidget with it... Which maybe forces you to think about some other detail somewhere else, etc...
So you can't really get away with not knowing issues, you can still ignore them, but you will know about it, and you'll know youre ignoring a problem...
There are problems with it. It's not a great freeform modeller. You can do freeform stuff, basically as well as say in autocad, maybe better... but its still clunkier than 3D studio or microstation, etc. because, since everything is a "real object", a component in your model like a pierce of furniture or a wall, a window, a ceiling, a floor, a curtain wall mullion, rail, etc. Everything that is free form is also a component, simply a "custom component". Custom components are made by modifying existing components in your library or you could start from scratch...
Apart from just working drawings of your model, you can have other views of your model... It renders pretty well if you get used to it, sun studies, animation, etc...
So that's the basics of what Revit is...
Although I have never used Archicad, it looks very similar... Basically Archicad is the direct competitor of Revit... Revit is the autodesk version of Archicad... Think Excel to Lotus123... Bentley Architecture / Triforma is also parametric modelling, although I think Archicad and Revit are alot closer in how they approached this... Bentley's products use references and extractions to create drawings. Revit and Archicad generally contain everything in one model, which means that if the model gets really complex and huge it might slow the software down (although I've never actually built anything in Revit at a scale where I experienced any of these issues)... Bentley's approach avoids these processing issues by splitting files up... But on the other hand, Microstation / Triforma then lose alot of the advantages of speed and connectivity between all objects. In other words, as things are right now, Microstation is better for larger projects, ArchiCAD and Revit are better for smaller projects.
Personally, I'm a Revit Fan... Can you tell? I know its pretty nerdy to be a fan of a software package, but if you try it and learn how to use it, it becomes actually fun and saves time and manpower for even better results... Your whole project including your sheets, every little detail, a model you can take views of, walkthrough animations, etc. are all in one neat little package... Just my 2 cents, and I've never actually gone through a whole project working in Revit or used it while working in an office...
OMG... sorry for that long post... Its basically practically "intro to revit" tutorial or a revit sales seminar... Oh well it's a holiday tomorrow which is maybe why I have time to rant about computer software...
Regarding 3D modelling, I find it easy. If you are just dropping standard type plans like partition walls, doors, windows, stairs, etc. maybe multiple levels, a roof etc... then it will take you maybe a day to model your whole building. You are modelling by basically "drawing in plan" with a wall tool which shows its thickness and automatically extrudes the height to the ceiling.. You can go in and modify later... You drop in windows which are objects in your walls, which have the intelligence of reading as proper simbols in plan view but are actually 3D objects when you view your model in any 3D view... They will also read correctly if you section through them.
Most standard construction, you can throw in using the standard families that come defaulted with Revit... Stairs same, there are stairs tools... You drop in a stair and pull it and it adds treads... It tells you if you don't make the height of the floor, the stair object reads with the proper notation and information, treads and riser info etc. in all drawings automatically... You have to tweak to "debug" your stair which basically means make it work with the reality of the floorslabs, etc.
A railing is a component of a stair or floor, a furniture object sits on a floor... A mullion and a piece of glazing, and the grid that those things are attached to are all objects, components of a curtain wall... So... you can very very quickly model things using the given families that come with the software...
And I think there are wall types that are generic 6" partitions etc...
The key then is using Revit for custom details. Custom details mean actually freeform modelling custom families, which is the trickier part of Revit, but when you are able to do it, makes it much more powerful than a dumb geometry modeller... You can do dumb geometry but it is clunkier... The key to custom families is to think about designing those families like you are writing a computer program or programming in excel while you are modelling... You can basically parameterize, create rules on how a particular object works... Like assign the height of your custom table to a variable "height"... your diameter of the post supports for your table "post diameter"... the thickness of the table's top as "top thickness'... Once done, your custom table is not just a piece of dumb model... It is a custom furniture object that you can drop on any floor... It knows that it sits on a floor plane, and you can drop those tables in at the click of a button... (similar to a blockin autocad)... But that block has parameters that you can define in that instance, so here the table is 34" high, here it is 38" high... Basically, if you made a custom window detail in one project, you could just drop it into any other wall in any other project, and even modify the parameter of it to make it look totally different... In other words, just as in excel you have to know a bit of the program to do custom tables, and you can program calculations and relationships and rules... You can do the same in Revit.
If Revit were like a complex version of "The Sims" computer game, where you are both builder and programmer... you can basically drop in bits and pieces of a house, then Custom Families are the tools that are already built into Revit to allow you to program one of the "Sim furnitures or wall pieces" etc. that you can drop into your house... You program how it works... If you were doing say a custom guardrail, you could say that it is always a certain height, or you could make "height" a parameter... You could say that it always hangs 2" off the edge of a slab, or you could make it a parameter where it is connected to the slab in each instance...
When making the custom families, you are modeling like in another program, except you are assigning variables to the object... Programming your model...
is also one reason why we use Revit.
unrelated, but this popped up in the press release for AutoCAD 2008:
Autodesk Impression 2008
Autodesk Impression software is Autodesk's response to thousands of customers who asked for a tool that would let them produce illustrations. Incorporating feedback from more than 30,000 Autodesk Labs beta testers, Impression is now available for purchase. The application enables users to create presentation-ready graphics directly from DWG and DWF files, boosting teams' productivity and allowing clients to experience ideas and explore design alternatives while a project is in development. With Impression, users can quickly produce high-quality illustrations and renderings that have a hand-drawn look, while leveraging the value of their CAD data.
Highlights of Impression 2008 features include:
--Easy-to-use tools for applying pre-built and custom styles. Styles are comprised of everything from strokes that look like pencil work, to fills representing markers and watercolors. Custom styles can be developed to create a "signature style" for a specific project or for use by everyone in a firm.
--Time-saving features such as Style Mapping.These features let users create multiple images that all have the same look and feel.
--Rapid updating tools such as CAD Geometry Update.These tools allow users to update and change illustrations as a design develops.
Good news, but there's always my personal fear that it might be clumsy and hokey...
I've been hoping that Revit and other BIM software will help architects get more into construction management. I see potential for the non-creative/paper-pushing roles of construction management to be handled by the software such as cost estimation. You think?
What other BIM packages are out there? I've played around with Bentley Studio (an expansion of Microstation) and it seems to have a lot of potential. But it also seems frustratingly complex and counter-intuitive to use. Is Revit this way?
Has anyone used other BIM software packages and, if so, how do they compare to Revit? I know that Autodesk has been putting a huge amount of marketing money into Revit, but is it hype or is this the very best BIM software out there?
Also, how difficult is it to use Revit? If I were moving from Autocad (in which I'm only moderately proficient,) how long would it honestly take me to learn it?
the firm i work for switched to revit just before i got here, so i've been learning it with them for the past few months. our firm is a very design-oriented one, with a lot of custom details and complex geometry, so i've found that revit can be a little tricky for our applications.. however, even so, the advantages are obvious and apparent, especially if your firm does more spec-oriented work with a lot of typical details. it's definitely the future of architectural drafting, but it is also still definitely on the steep-part of its development curve.
take a class that probobly the best thing to do...just finished w/ my 3 day class....it was fuckin awesome
-my office hasnt made the compete switch to revit yet so i will be back on acad for the remainder of the project i am workin on. :-(
-then onto revit for the next one.
-basically what i decribe revit as - its CAD stripped down to its basic capabilities(drawing lines on a computer) w/ giant muscles(modeling architecture)
farwest...if you are at all proficient with Autocad...taking the level 1 class will teach you everything you need to do. You'll get the hang of Revit fairly quickly. If you have any experience working in 3d (FormZ especially) it'll be even easier.
This is the Reason We USE BIM!
It is made by a sqeeky clean guy!
Our office recently acquired REVIT, and have used it as a great visual tool for our residential projects in the schematic phases. For one, the simultaneous construction makes is quicker to build the plans, sections and elevations, and create multiple perspective views and walk-throughs. So far it's been very well-received by our clients.
Long story short, a monkey can use Revit.
Anyway, I just heard the News: Autodesk bought Archicad! Well maybe this is old news in the BIM cricles but shit! They are officially the devil now.
Revit was developed as a parametric modelling software from the ground up. It was developed by a startup company and was later bought by autodesk which began dumping R & D money into it.... Its a smart intuitive well designed software which was made with BIM in mind...
Triforma (Microstation) and ADT (Autocad) on the other hand are what happens when you take a 2D drafting software, evolve to 3D modelling, and then evolve to BIM... They try to incorporate everything but they fail to really get the new things right... They weren't designed with BIM in mind from the outset, and are more refined as drafting softwares.
Microstation succeeds as a 3D modeller but doesn't have the well thought out user oriented design of Revit when it comes to parametric modelling... In Revit, everything is parametric, and it is easier to pickup and run with I think... Microstation has more of an additive learning curve: 2D to 3D to BIM, which on the one hand gives you lots of crutches to fall back on if you ever cannot figure BIM out (since there are no 3rd party textbooks that teach you how to use Bentley Triforma)... But these crutches make the switch to BIM more difficult IMO because it's easy to fall back to just drafting everything to avoid the learning pains... (And since its a slow learning process, who can really afford to learn it on the job?)
But I've heard that for microstation, to really take advantage of the power of BIM I think you need to get 'bentley generative components', which is equivalent to the custom families aspect of Revit. I've never tried generative components, but I've heard that it is very powerful... Maybe somebody who has used it might be able to weigh in?
I may have spoke too soon. There is no real chat about this on The BIM Lists...afterall.
well,
I am still trying to find out if that was a rumor. It was all over my school though. Our school has a pretty tight relationship with Archicad. They don;t even teach Revit there. My apologies.
Anyway, yeah I consider BIM the lowest denominator of what all have to embrace and participate in. It is certainly exciting for new users, and easy to go on and on about. I also remember the first time I ever drew line in CAD and I was so proud...anyway REVIT and ARCHiCAD are bith so easy to learn even for monkeys ,..blahblah.
hmm so i might go from leaving a small hand-drafting firm, go to grad school for 3 years and come out having to learn revit?
i dunno if i should rejoice at the possibility of never having use autocad as a draftsman, or weep that i will again walk out of a university only know outdated drafting techniques.
Philarch - "I've been hoping that Revit and other BIM software will help architects get more into construction management."
There is now doubt that this is a growing roll for the architect, however that statement alone would sink the heart of many a fresh faced student.
My firm is switching at the start of 2008 and I can't wait!
Phase I of training has already started. Basically, the company president said too many contractors were getting ahead of us on this so it's time for change.
and the same positive metaphor in reverse, seen in this way: entry is simpler in revit (e.g., is there a way to have acad auto number attributes by door type?) as entry is easier in a word processor.
yes, and you normally expect that to happen because revit allows you stay aware of the reality of what you are working on. the common problem with this kind of edit, is that revit can perform edits with some inaccuracy. eg, you do a major paste, yet the copy doesn't insert exactly correctly. revit responds with a jillion error pops, so you just undo and try to paste again slightly differently.
also some error alerts cannot be ignored (revit refuses to continue). I'd prefer that the user can temp override revit's refusal, because user expects to fix later. sometimes the user has a planned process, and knows fixing the error later is more efficient overall.
read jaja's link. formulas (not just constants, boundaries, or on-the-fly entry) in the properties. wow. (too bad the screenshots are too small to see the examples of formulas)
I just finished a brief introduction to revit at uni and like what everyone is saying, "it is cad for monkeys" - it was a complete dumbing down of cad. Although its quick, simple and easy to learn, I only use revit for early conceptual designs.
revit is cad for monkeys if windows is dos for monkeys
revit is cad for monkeys? i don't agree with that at all. you actually need to know how a building goes together with revit.
get with the program and keep those Autodesk profits rolling in...
Autodesk makes record profits
Don't use BIM! - Long office hours are in danger. (yes – only endless office sessions make you a valuable employee) “Zooming in” –“Zooming out” in AutoCAD, counting door / window tags and put it in excel, changing floor plan > elevation > section > floor plan > elevation > section > floor plan > elevation > section... drawing polylines for area analyse – extracting attributes into excel, etc. Moreover you have to give your drafters more responsibility – which maybe results in higher salaries (no cheap interns)! Worst of all: you immediately see the building as a model! No more cheating and tricking the client! So hands-off BIM!!
For learning how to use revit, this is a great resource with forums:
RevitCity.com
we havent switched over to revit yet... but we are using ADT which is the precusor ... its really nice once you get ahang of it, lends itself to producing greater detail faster and making the 3d scheme available that much faster as well.. ill never go back to the regular cad releases.
Maybe AutoCad will use all there excess profits to help save, "The Monkeys of the World" Now wouldn't that be sweet!
-ANYONE HERD OF A SPOT WHERE I COULD GET MY HANDS ON A VERSION OF REVIT THATS NOT $1000
- AND ANYONE KNOW WHAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE STUDENT VERSION AND THE FULL VERSION OF REVIT BESIDES $800
- I THINK THIS IS MIGHT BE THE ONLY PROGRAM THAT I WOULD ACTUALLY BUY INSTEAD OF HAVING A FRIEND BURN ME A DISC ALOTHOUGH THAT WOULD BE NICE!
- I THINK THERE IS A NEW VERSSION OF REVIT COMING OUT SOON -REVIT 10.0...WHATS NEXT???
i would like revit to do our spec books so i dont have to. specs are absolutely the worst part of this job..
Revit ties into a spec program, if you are diligent in assigning uniformat numbers to your construction elements, it will jam out a pretty decent spec for you, as well as estimates, energy analysis and data that you will never need. Plus it can coordinate changes with consultants, check for interference between structural and architectural elements...but you have to know what your doing or it will do nothing more than AutoCAD.
j
I just got a "invite" to an "Experience the Possibilities tour" of Autodesk live - aka Revit. My office isn't planning on switching anytime soon (within the next 10 years) and so I am wondering if you guys think I should take the class on my own. I am just an intern, only graduated in 06, and the class in on a Tuesday, so I'd probably have to take a vacation day. But I can't help but feel this would be good for MY future, even if it isn't for the company.
Should I plan to go? How much can you learn in 1 day class/tour?
I went to a revit 3 hr introduction at one of the local distributors offices (not autodesk). It was mostly a "if you're interested in this software our company can do a much more in depth series of classes for you for $$" type of thing. It was nice cause we all had our own computers so we could follow along. Don't know if this is the type of thing you're talking about. It wasn't a waste of time and it probably wouldn't be a waste of your's either but i can't say i learned much that i couldn't have learned on my own there. One problem was that it was open to anyone so i was grouped in with computer semi-illiterate persons slowing everyone else down (i don't mean people who aren't familiar with the program, i mean people who can barely turn a computer on, "wait, how did you just do that?.."can you show me that again"...to a ridiculous degree).. you shouldn't have to take a vacation day for it in my opinion, but that's between you and your boss.
i was fortunate enough that we have revit in our office and was able to just sit down and do one of our smaller schematic jobs in it (we do 3d pres models here anyway so we rendered it in MAX later but didn't use it CDs) but it was in my opinion the absolute best way to get introduced to the program. Download the free tutorial (i assume this is still available) and refer heavily to forums like AUGI.com. Even if your office isn't planning to 'switch' soon (trust me, even the ones that are planning to 'switch' often don't, mine included) you might be able to convince your boss to buy 1 or 2 copies for the office if you show what it can do.
Yeah, we have a "cad" guy for that, and they didnt bite because, as with many offices I'm sure, there were some people who just WOULDN'T change their way of doing things.
It does seem like the "check this out, then buy a class if you're interested kind of thing though. Maybe I will look at it online and see. My boss didn't seem to think it was worth the time for me to go, something about how what we sell is time, and you are worth more to us here doing redlines. So it'd probably be a vacation day. I just didn't know if it would teach me enough to be able to apply for jobs at other firms that use the software.
I'd go then.. just as a professional and ethical slap in your bosses face. And might i add that from the few things you've said about your company i hope you're doing this cause you're actively seeking out a new job cause it sounds like that might be in your best interest. The first thing you should figure out is if you even like the software enough to want to work for a firm that uses it, the seminar might help with that.
(also get the most out of the free trial download, you could definitely learn enough in 30 days to get your foot in the door somewhere else)
Thanks. I will try that free version...I'm assuming its a 30 trial since you said 30 days.
Guess this thread can die a slow death to the bottom of the page now.
it is sad everybody wants to jump inside the box.
jumping out is not so easy once you are inside
at least there is software that can help you with interpolarity
i designed and built a contraption to climb out of the box...it was super easy using revit structure!..i can climb back in too if i want.
and what do you call it?
is interpolarity a word?
box must contain dictionaries too.
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