hi everyone, this is my first post, i'm an intern architectural technologist working in Ontario and im currently attending the Royal Architectural Institute of Canada to become an architect. Ok so as i mentioned i work in a medium size firm in Ontario. We are a production firm working with a lot of contractors from Windsor to Ottawa doing large retirement centers, small and medium commercial centers and some auto dealerships. Now we are a "production firm" and i understand that we are keeping in business and since we live in a real "lunch box" type of area of the country and no one cares about design, we need to focus on getting our buildings out fast and cheep.
now i have a problem with this, i want to do whats best for my firm. i want to produce what they need to keep our clients happy. but feel it is my responsibility to try and promote a good design ethic. it seems every time my boss asks for design i try and give him something with a real concept, something original, innovative and with a design that attempts to positively influence how people are interacting with their environment. Now, we seem to get no positive response from any client form these design attempts, even if my boss will promote them (usually not though.. but only because he knows what the client will say). The client or my boss with always come back with something that totally defies my concept. They always want some cookie cutter building that dosn't have any concept or innovation. Now i know why this is happening. My boss is only doing what the client wants, its just to keep is in business, but isnt there any way we can push true design to the client?
When the client dosn't care how are we supposed to convince them they should seek true design in their multi million dollar buildings? I want to create true designs that are innovative, unique and a reflection of my emotion and imagination. I try to do whats best for the project, i always try to find ways to create the best space for the person(s) occupying the building. I want to be creative and an innovator, but no one seems to care, Everyone just wants to please the client that doesn't care (they just want to build something to make a buck)
What should i do? is this something that plagues the lives of everyone in the field? I love my firm, and the people i work with, we do the best we can in our environment. The people there are trying to make a living. I want to stay with my firm, but i want to make a difference. Any thoughts?
I may be way off here, but what about the desires of your clients? I know you want to inject all of your own sensibilities into your designed work, but your clients are the other half of the equation. Put another way... what if, with the same budget, you were allowed to do whatever you wanted. That might make YOU happy, but then, you don't have to work at that car dealership. Your clients do, and maybe they don't quite understand (or care) about the way the light falls on the watercooler at sundown.
I'm being an ass, but you understant.
A little off-topic, but how is the RAIC system/program? I don't know much about it, and I don't know anybody who's done it. I'm just a future student in Ontario, myself, with a background in industrial design.
to make a good design ... i wont say it's easy but i can say that many can do, to sell ur design ... that's the big deal, it's not that easy to convince ur boss or ur boss's client with ur designs ... i suffered this problem several times ... it's like ur boss tells u indirectly: 'who r u to tell me this and that? and why should i make decisions based on ur thinking and imagination?'.
I think it requires communication talents besides artistic ones in order to convince anybody with ur work, it requires some patience also, wait till u have wat it takes ... then boost ur work.
I agree with meeez. You do have to be able to not only sell yourself, but sell your design as well. And that will take a bit of time to build several things: 1) a strong design sense and economy, 2) a relationship with the client [the client won't care about your design or the fact that you're still within budget unless they know you and trust you] 3) more professional credibility. It is always frustrating, but until you really push those things to the front it really won't matter what your design looks like. You have to be able to sell it. My two cents.
thank you all for your response, i feel my firm does give the client what they want, and they do that well. i have been learing alot from this firm in the last 2 years, its definatly more a "production" than a design firm and i understand that. i agree with you j when you say there is more to architecture than design, yes, and this firm is the place to learn that. but i will need to get into another firm maybe in 10 years when im done with the RAIC, that is more design oriented. its not that bad im only 23 so ill be an architect with alot of technical experience by the time im 33.
I know what your saying slantsix when you say that i need to satisfy the desires of the client. I want to satisfy the client 100% but i guess my experiences in dealing with clients desires has lead to disappointment, they are not designers, they will grab a picture of another building down the street and say "make my building look like this" - storey of my life! and that is frusterating when you have just shown them somthing that is designed with a great concept and genuine creativity. i guess im just disappointed by the clients lack of faith in us, or somthing, but maybe the more design based clients are seeking out more design based firms. So i guess the best job i can do in this situation is to keep suggesting, but then go with what they want.. the cookie cutter building in the end. Maybe one day someone will fall in love with one of my original designs..
BTW, RAIC is a 10 year super ultra part time school for people working under an architect who want to be an architect. its an affordable and accessabe alternative to university. It is recogonized all through Canada and once you are an architect, im sure you could move over to the US with a few tests and courses (dont quote me on that im not sure) check it out
thanks for all of your thoughts, i guess i just need to aperciate what ive got here for technical experience and one day i can gain the design experience i need in a different firm - probably when im done school as i mentioned (i like it here) then i can move into the design role i would like
Sorry but my understanding is that you're still a student. Many architects don't even get their designs built, so don't get frustrated. Show us your work. We'll tell you if they're actually worthy to be built.
i will submit something i did 3 years ago when i was in 3rd year college.. i think i could improve on it 1000% now, now i get alot of space planning opportunities but when we design at work, our ideas will always get trumped by a client with a picture of another building he/she saw on the ride home.. make my building look like this building... its so depressing, am i the only one who hates copying someones building facade onto their footprint?
.. oh i will post something soon, its a building ive been very proud of since i put my heart and soul into it... when i get my stuff together, i need to put cad back onto my machine and get some PDFs made to post
i have a feeling im being set up for ambush, im going to post somthing and get 100 responce saying, why on earth do i think i my work should be built
i think it should be known that my throughts on design are NOT ment to be an argument that I think know best, and everyone else is an idiot.. that is 100% NOT the case
at my firm we are all working as a team, we dont assign in individual to design 1 thing. but i feel we DO NOT get to do very create unique work because of our clients. It seems they just want the typical
cookie-cutter buildings..
i dont want people here thinking im an ignorant ass who sits on their high horse, im far from it. I'm simply trying to get a grasp of the design world and trying to see how i can learn from it, and contribute somthing of VALUE, not just more clones of the same old thing you see at every street corner.
ive always felt architecture is an art, and like a painting, or a piece of music it can be a piece of beauty,, but how would you like to listen to the radio if everyone did a cover of the same song.. whould you consider those bands as artests or would you just be bored and turn it off?
The below is me venting to a friend about a similar situation, maybe we all have felt this way before, I feel like the client's interest and needs are important, but I also feel like there is a severe lack of trust between the client and the architect, for some reason the client sees us as merely a means to make their vision a reality, which yes is true, BUT there has to be a point when the client trust the architect to take control creatively.
"
Does anyone ever ask a doctor "Hey, are you sure you know how to fix my broken arm, wait a minute I have a better idea on how to do this."
If you were in the middle of litigation would you ever tell your lawyer "Hey, I saw this seen on A Few Good Men and I would really like to pretend to be Tom Cruise when he catches Jack Nicholson in a lie."
Then why is it whenever someone talks to an architect they say "Hey what I think you should have done is added a gabled roof, some arched windows and make our 35000 sf project look like a 'country home'. WTF! I can't wait until one day I can tell a client what to do with that idea. Do I tell people how to do their job, no. I wonder what would happen if I wrote up an e-mail explaining to her how she should do her job, even though I have no training or idea what it is the dean of ___ does, but I used to go to school so that could make me an expert, kind of like having a subscription to arch. digest makes her an architect.
WHATEVER!! Our clients are more than the guy signing the check, and most of you know that. Too many architects use "pleasing the client" and "serving the needs of the client" interchangeably at their own risk. Serving the needs of our clients include good design, because our work, unlike the doctor or lawyer, has profound effects on people not signing our checks, that means we do stuff that the paying client doesn't want to do, because our other clients demand it. The reason for much mediocre design today is because we narrowly define who our client is, and then bend over backwards to please them, rather than serve their needs.
j
while i sort of agree with oldfogey's argument in that it seems to be the way things work, i've always argued (and some of you may be sick of it by now) that our paying clients are not the only impt stakeholders in the jobs that we do. this is what makes us professionals instead of salesmen, entrepreneurs, etc. as licensed professionals we have an ethical responsibility to a larger group of stakeholders than merely our clients, including a buildings' users and the general public that has to live with what we put out in the world.
the paying client does NOT, therefore, own all of the parameters. if that were the case, there would be no relevance to codes, deed restrictions, form or overlay districts, design review boards, landmarks/preservation commissions, etc.
shaner I feel your pain and have spent the last five years in a similar position. I work in a municipal office with the same kind of problems where we are expected to churn out the "norm" versus good design. We've had some success with about 80% of our clientele.
The biggest difficulty we've found was that they always thought that it was more an expression of our egos than quality design. So eventually we allowed the design to come from them...sounds easy enough but given the opportunity they really didn't know what quality was. So it became a learning exercise.
I wholeheartedly agree that architects must have their say when it comes to design, but many seems to forget or don't know we build for humans to LIVE in it. They are our first concern, and not something such as making something architecture artistic or a sculpture, like Shaner feels. Let's leave that to Gehry, who does it best! It hasn't been long since I started going to school for architecture. I had a background in visual arts prior to it, and used to be disgusted at the mistaken "CRAP" many architects and students were designing. Little did I know that there are things in architecture more important that something only visually appealing.
i can respect each and every comment that has been written here, you all make valid points, and i 100% agree with most of your arguments.
when you say the client pay for the project and they know what they want, they have to live, or work, or whatever in this building too. i cant totally respect this.
i know what its like to seek a consultant to assist in a dream, "why should i compromise my dream to their suggestions? they don't have anything to do with MY idea?" It IS wrong of us to push something that in the end dissatisfy our client, after all, we are in the service insdustry.
but is it wrong to hope to be an innovator? and artist? to SOLVE problems with our creations, to make life better for those who live and work in our buildings.. to ADVANCE building science, and design. To keep moving forward and improving how we live by improving our environments??
i feel its hard to be an artist and an innovator in this field.. but just like a musician or a painter, we need to find a way to make it happen, to create something that is going to advance the science and art of building. Unfortunatly we have a problem that musicians and painters do not have to face. They can create their art without financial contribution from their clients PRIOR to creation. We need clients before we can create, sure we can design, but it will never be built. Its not like we can pop up all of our creations and try to sell them after..
Now this is where i get frustrated. i want to do whats best for the client, and YA, maybe whats best is to give them what they want. but you know.. when i buy music, i usually have an idea of what i want, but sometimes i listen to a new artist that just blows me away and gives me a new idea of what i like in music. Now i know people have to LIVE in or work in this place, but as ive said time and time again, i want to IMPROVE how people interact with their surroundings, how people live, how people work. i want to make buildings BETTER.
Now heres where its even harder, as design professionals we have goals in our career, everything i just said, and more. I doubt hardly ANY of our clients share these dreams. their dream is to have THEIR building how THEY want it. and their paying the bills so we need to respect that, but as i mentioned in my first post. im feeling disappointment, mostly that we very seldom get the chance to develop our dreams.
now some people think its selfish of us to just want to develop our dreams, but i don't think so. every artist wants to live their dream, to create, its just harder for an architect. some get the chance, some don't. now i don't have the talent to change the world... not yet at least, and maybe ill never have it, but i want the chance to try at some point .. well maybe not the world, but i want to make a positive influence..
ok, found it, bought it, its in the mail, last time i looked on amazon.ca the DVD hadn't been released and there was only 1 used VHS, well i got a nice dvd copy coming and the book too, so,, next time ill look before i ask! heh
One thing every architect needs to learn is how to educate your owner...if your owner is not educated on good design, they will not choose good design-when they say "I want my building to look like this" do you ever ask them why? What do they like about that building-is it the way it makes them feel, or a memory it brings up or what? Do you then suggest ideas that may evoke the same emotion in them but reflect a different design or use products that are environmentally responsible? Do you educate them about light patterns and why you are desiging the windows a certian way-how that will affect mood and how it will affect their heating/cooling bills?
Servicing the client is more than just giving them a cool design-if we want clients to respect our ideas, we need to back them up with logic that they understand. Just like when you go to the doctor-he doesn't speak to you in latin and give you terminology you don't comprehend-he/she usually tries to put it in your terms so you can accept it.
So think about what the client is thinking about-money, schedule, life of the building, work flow-and then present your idea in those terms so they understand that your design takes these things into account whereas that building down the street does not. Then which is really the better deal for them?
I've worked with a lot of Owners and Architects-education is the key to getting your ideas built-educate your owner!!!
you keep saying its an architects EGO, that pushes them to try and fulfill their goals and ideologies? i don't think its their ego, for many people, its why they became an architect, its their passion, they want to create their own vision, and if we don't have a vision or a goal, then why do anything???
if your entire reason for being an architect is to serve the client and give them what they want - with a professional opinion, and nothing more then you will be satisfied with serving the client to help the create their visions. and that can be an extremely fulfilling career. but if i want to create something that is going to have an impact on society, that will improve the science and art of building. then we HAVE to keep trying to do so, as an artist it is my passion to keep trying to but don't get me wrong, im not saying to do this irresponsibly, i'm NOT saying neglect ANY of the clients needs or desires, it IS our responsibility to do this too!! and this is where it gets difficult, how do we do both? is it possible? YES it is, I BELIEVE IT IS!!!! it just doesn't happen everyday. i feel if we keep serving our clients and guide them with their goals then it will influence our goals too, and if we don't loose focus on our goals, we will find the client that will share our passion and vision and let you see your vision though to the end, if they trust you and share your vision, it will happen. but these clients are far and few between. but they do exist, now most of these clients are not rich, not investors, or design build company owners. these people are regular society, and maybe we wont get paid for these jobs maybe our client cant pay us, HEY, maybe our client wont even come to us with their proposal, maybe we need to go to them. sometimes we might need to take a chance and make our ideas known to the world before we find a client. someone will share our visions and then things start to work out.
ya go ahead and say it.. come down to the real world, but the real innovators in the industry didn't conform, they kept their goals in their sights. and i will do this, because if i don't, well i might as well quit this career path. until my time comes, i will keep doing my best to serve the client, give them what they want along with my profession opinions - and not an EGO lesson.
i'm going to try and get involved in some probono work, i think this might be the only way to accomplish some of my goals, because my goals aren't to create a certian style structure or to build my ideal house, no my goal is to positively influence design and building science, while creating structures that positively influence how society interacts with their surroundings, I'm not sure how I'm going to do this yet but ive got some ideas and I'm still new and it will come in time, I'm sure of this. i know you may I've got my head in the clouds and need to come back down to earth but i do not.. I'm very grounded and i can take care of my clients while persuing my goals at the same time. i will not let my personal goals get in the way of a clients needs and wants, i just need to find the right client to fulfill my goals.. and as i said, its probably not going to be the typical client with the big bucks, it will be an innovator or an artist, or someone with a problem. i don't know yet
and tinydancer, i think you have nailed it on the head, we need to do this to help our clients fulfill THEIR goals, we need to fulfill our goals when the time comes, but maybe we can help the client to a greater degree. i always say, architects don't design buildings, clients do, but with our help, maybe the client can design something greater and more appropriate for their needs and wants then they have ever imagined something much more appropriate than the building down the street. our goals will come in time and this process will influence us to see what society needs, maybe our path will skew because of these experiences, but hopefully in a positive way
prada by h+deM was not about fulfilling client needs in the way described above...the client actually WANTED the architects to have a vision...do they fail as architects, old fogey? i don't think it is a sin to aspire to that kind of quality in design and architecture. being professional is not easy, but is really just a starting point as far as i am concerned and not enough to aspire to...some may not like rem koolhaas and gehry, but they have had i think a more positive impact on architecture, and maybe even society (at least in bilbao) than a reasonable building done in a reasonable way for a reasonable client. architecture sometimes has to be un-reasonable. like all art, and like all science there is a time when doing things the old way needs to be tested...is where our society grows, where life gets better (maybe worse), and opportunity emerges.
sure, tesla tricked his clients into building some crazy-ass towers for broadcasting power through the air, but he also gave us...well, most of our modern world actually. so is fair trade off. not that a trade is necessary, sometimes it is all good...i think we need to push the limits and have an agenda of our own at all times. living the dreams of others is great, but is even better to have your own, especially when they converge.
if you really wanna be in that realm then maybe raic 10 year program and tech job in office is not going to satisfy you. on other hand you have to make a living, so what to do? maybe try competitions on your own, or join the local AFH and do something real. either way i don't think accepting the status quo is gonna be much fun...but i wish you luck.
OldFogey- still a seamstress-hoping one day to own the band!
Shaner: your comment "come down to the real world, but the real innovators in the industry didn't conform, they kept their goals in their sights." true-innovators kept their goals, but think about Nike and Microsoft, -companies like that-they convinced us we needed their product-through marketing and appealing to us emotionally and logically-they hooked us in-that's what you need to do with your client-you can help them realize their vision and your vision-I understand many architects are artists, but architecture is more than art because you are creating something for a specific use for someone else, not creating something and then putting it out on market. So it still comes down to educating your owner-selling them on your design and influencing them in the best direction in their best interest. There is a balance to create-and that is the challenge, and unfortunately they don't teach that in school-you are finding it out right now-and many people don't want to take the time to educate others, so they conform and give up. Or they get turned down once and give up. So when your boss says no to a design-grill him why-find out the reasoning and then sell him, then you take it to the owner and sell them. But make sure you can back up your design with reason.
confused and frusterated with design.
hi everyone, this is my first post, i'm an intern architectural technologist working in Ontario and im currently attending the Royal Architectural Institute of Canada to become an architect. Ok so as i mentioned i work in a medium size firm in Ontario. We are a production firm working with a lot of contractors from Windsor to Ottawa doing large retirement centers, small and medium commercial centers and some auto dealerships. Now we are a "production firm" and i understand that we are keeping in business and since we live in a real "lunch box" type of area of the country and no one cares about design, we need to focus on getting our buildings out fast and cheep.
now i have a problem with this, i want to do whats best for my firm. i want to produce what they need to keep our clients happy. but feel it is my responsibility to try and promote a good design ethic. it seems every time my boss asks for design i try and give him something with a real concept, something original, innovative and with a design that attempts to positively influence how people are interacting with their environment. Now, we seem to get no positive response from any client form these design attempts, even if my boss will promote them (usually not though.. but only because he knows what the client will say). The client or my boss with always come back with something that totally defies my concept. They always want some cookie cutter building that dosn't have any concept or innovation. Now i know why this is happening. My boss is only doing what the client wants, its just to keep is in business, but isnt there any way we can push true design to the client?
When the client dosn't care how are we supposed to convince them they should seek true design in their multi million dollar buildings? I want to create true designs that are innovative, unique and a reflection of my emotion and imagination. I try to do whats best for the project, i always try to find ways to create the best space for the person(s) occupying the building. I want to be creative and an innovator, but no one seems to care, Everyone just wants to please the client that doesn't care (they just want to build something to make a buck)
What should i do? is this something that plagues the lives of everyone in the field? I love my firm, and the people i work with, we do the best we can in our environment. The people there are trying to make a living. I want to stay with my firm, but i want to make a difference. Any thoughts?
I may be way off here, but what about the desires of your clients? I know you want to inject all of your own sensibilities into your designed work, but your clients are the other half of the equation. Put another way... what if, with the same budget, you were allowed to do whatever you wanted. That might make YOU happy, but then, you don't have to work at that car dealership. Your clients do, and maybe they don't quite understand (or care) about the way the light falls on the watercooler at sundown.
I'm being an ass, but you understant.
A little off-topic, but how is the RAIC system/program? I don't know much about it, and I don't know anybody who's done it. I'm just a future student in Ontario, myself, with a background in industrial design.
to make a good design ... i wont say it's easy but i can say that many can do, to sell ur design ... that's the big deal, it's not that easy to convince ur boss or ur boss's client with ur designs ... i suffered this problem several times ... it's like ur boss tells u indirectly: 'who r u to tell me this and that? and why should i make decisions based on ur thinking and imagination?'.
I think it requires communication talents besides artistic ones in order to convince anybody with ur work, it requires some patience also, wait till u have wat it takes ... then boost ur work.
I agree with meeez. You do have to be able to not only sell yourself, but sell your design as well. And that will take a bit of time to build several things: 1) a strong design sense and economy, 2) a relationship with the client [the client won't care about your design or the fact that you're still within budget unless they know you and trust you] 3) more professional credibility. It is always frustrating, but until you really push those things to the front it really won't matter what your design looks like. You have to be able to sell it. My two cents.
thank you all for your response, i feel my firm does give the client what they want, and they do that well. i have been learing alot from this firm in the last 2 years, its definatly more a "production" than a design firm and i understand that. i agree with you j when you say there is more to architecture than design, yes, and this firm is the place to learn that. but i will need to get into another firm maybe in 10 years when im done with the RAIC, that is more design oriented. its not that bad im only 23 so ill be an architect with alot of technical experience by the time im 33.
I know what your saying slantsix when you say that i need to satisfy the desires of the client. I want to satisfy the client 100% but i guess my experiences in dealing with clients desires has lead to disappointment, they are not designers, they will grab a picture of another building down the street and say "make my building look like this" - storey of my life! and that is frusterating when you have just shown them somthing that is designed with a great concept and genuine creativity. i guess im just disappointed by the clients lack of faith in us, or somthing, but maybe the more design based clients are seeking out more design based firms. So i guess the best job i can do in this situation is to keep suggesting, but then go with what they want.. the cookie cutter building in the end. Maybe one day someone will fall in love with one of my original designs..
BTW, RAIC is a 10 year super ultra part time school for people working under an architect who want to be an architect. its an affordable and accessabe alternative to university. It is recogonized all through Canada and once you are an architect, im sure you could move over to the US with a few tests and courses (dont quote me on that im not sure) check it out
http://www.raic.org/
http://www.raic-syllabus.ca/
thanks for all of your thoughts, i guess i just need to aperciate what ive got here for technical experience and one day i can gain the design experience i need in a different firm - probably when im done school as i mentioned (i like it here) then i can move into the design role i would like
..shaner
Sorry but my understanding is that you're still a student. Many architects don't even get their designs built, so don't get frustrated. Show us your work. We'll tell you if they're actually worthy to be built.
i will submit something i did 3 years ago when i was in 3rd year college.. i think i could improve on it 1000% now, now i get alot of space planning opportunities but when we design at work, our ideas will always get trumped by a client with a picture of another building he/she saw on the ride home.. make my building look like this building... its so depressing, am i the only one who hates copying someones building facade onto their footprint?
.. oh i will post something soon, its a building ive been very proud of since i put my heart and soul into it... when i get my stuff together, i need to put cad back onto my machine and get some PDFs made to post
looking forward to seeing a sample of ur work shaner ...
i have a feeling im being set up for ambush, im going to post somthing and get 100 responce saying, why on earth do i think i my work should be built
i think it should be known that my throughts on design are NOT ment to be an argument that I think know best, and everyone else is an idiot.. that is 100% NOT the case
at my firm we are all working as a team, we dont assign in individual to design 1 thing. but i feel we DO NOT get to do very create unique work because of our clients. It seems they just want the typical
cookie-cutter buildings..
i dont want people here thinking im an ignorant ass who sits on their high horse, im far from it. I'm simply trying to get a grasp of the design world and trying to see how i can learn from it, and contribute somthing of VALUE, not just more clones of the same old thing you see at every street corner.
ive always felt architecture is an art, and like a painting, or a piece of music it can be a piece of beauty,, but how would you like to listen to the radio if everyone did a cover of the same song.. whould you consider those bands as artests or would you just be bored and turn it off?
The below is me venting to a friend about a similar situation, maybe we all have felt this way before, I feel like the client's interest and needs are important, but I also feel like there is a severe lack of trust between the client and the architect, for some reason the client sees us as merely a means to make their vision a reality, which yes is true, BUT there has to be a point when the client trust the architect to take control creatively.
"
Does anyone ever ask a doctor "Hey, are you sure you know how to fix my broken arm, wait a minute I have a better idea on how to do this."
If you were in the middle of litigation would you ever tell your lawyer "Hey, I saw this seen on A Few Good Men and I would really like to pretend to be Tom Cruise when he catches Jack Nicholson in a lie."
Then why is it whenever someone talks to an architect they say "Hey what I think you should have done is added a gabled roof, some arched windows and make our 35000 sf project look like a 'country home'. WTF! I can't wait until one day I can tell a client what to do with that idea. Do I tell people how to do their job, no. I wonder what would happen if I wrote up an e-mail explaining to her how she should do her job, even though I have no training or idea what it is the dean of ___ does, but I used to go to school so that could make me an expert, kind of like having a subscription to arch. digest makes her an architect.
"
you sell out! where's your passion!!!
NIcely articulated Old Fogey... I agree whole heartedly.
WHATEVER!! Our clients are more than the guy signing the check, and most of you know that. Too many architects use "pleasing the client" and "serving the needs of the client" interchangeably at their own risk. Serving the needs of our clients include good design, because our work, unlike the doctor or lawyer, has profound effects on people not signing our checks, that means we do stuff that the paying client doesn't want to do, because our other clients demand it. The reason for much mediocre design today is because we narrowly define who our client is, and then bend over backwards to please them, rather than serve their needs.
j
YEAH i totally understand this !!! I really think as an industry we have a problem with many rich potential clients!.
while i sort of agree with oldfogey's argument in that it seems to be the way things work, i've always argued (and some of you may be sick of it by now) that our paying clients are not the only impt stakeholders in the jobs that we do. this is what makes us professionals instead of salesmen, entrepreneurs, etc. as licensed professionals we have an ethical responsibility to a larger group of stakeholders than merely our clients, including a buildings' users and the general public that has to live with what we put out in the world.
the paying client does NOT, therefore, own all of the parameters. if that were the case, there would be no relevance to codes, deed restrictions, form or overlay districts, design review boards, landmarks/preservation commissions, etc.
I would fully agree with Steven, and Old Fogey I feel your attitude, although honarable is the reason the profession is in the condition it is in.
shaner I feel your pain and have spent the last five years in a similar position. I work in a municipal office with the same kind of problems where we are expected to churn out the "norm" versus good design. We've had some success with about 80% of our clientele.
The biggest difficulty we've found was that they always thought that it was more an expression of our egos than quality design. So eventually we allowed the design to come from them...sounds easy enough but given the opportunity they really didn't know what quality was. So it became a learning exercise.
I wholeheartedly agree that architects must have their say when it comes to design, but many seems to forget or don't know we build for humans to LIVE in it. They are our first concern, and not something such as making something architecture artistic or a sculpture, like Shaner feels. Let's leave that to Gehry, who does it best! It hasn't been long since I started going to school for architecture. I had a background in visual arts prior to it, and used to be disgusted at the mistaken "CRAP" many architects and students were designing. Little did I know that there are things in architecture more important that something only visually appealing.
its that dude from Fountain Head
i can respect each and every comment that has been written here, you all make valid points, and i 100% agree with most of your arguments.
when you say the client pay for the project and they know what they want, they have to live, or work, or whatever in this building too. i cant totally respect this.
i know what its like to seek a consultant to assist in a dream, "why should i compromise my dream to their suggestions? they don't have anything to do with MY idea?" It IS wrong of us to push something that in the end dissatisfy our client, after all, we are in the service insdustry.
but is it wrong to hope to be an innovator? and artist? to SOLVE problems with our creations, to make life better for those who live and work in our buildings.. to ADVANCE building science, and design. To keep moving forward and improving how we live by improving our environments??
i feel its hard to be an artist and an innovator in this field.. but just like a musician or a painter, we need to find a way to make it happen, to create something that is going to advance the science and art of building. Unfortunatly we have a problem that musicians and painters do not have to face. They can create their art without financial contribution from their clients PRIOR to creation. We need clients before we can create, sure we can design, but it will never be built. Its not like we can pop up all of our creations and try to sell them after..
Now this is where i get frustrated. i want to do whats best for the client, and YA, maybe whats best is to give them what they want. but you know.. when i buy music, i usually have an idea of what i want, but sometimes i listen to a new artist that just blows me away and gives me a new idea of what i like in music. Now i know people have to LIVE in or work in this place, but as ive said time and time again, i want to IMPROVE how people interact with their surroundings, how people live, how people work. i want to make buildings BETTER.
Now heres where its even harder, as design professionals we have goals in our career, everything i just said, and more. I doubt hardly ANY of our clients share these dreams. their dream is to have THEIR building how THEY want it. and their paying the bills so we need to respect that, but as i mentioned in my first post. im feeling disappointment, mostly that we very seldom get the chance to develop our dreams.
now some people think its selfish of us to just want to develop our dreams, but i don't think so. every artist wants to live their dream, to create, its just harder for an architect. some get the chance, some don't. now i don't have the talent to change the world... not yet at least, and maybe ill never have it, but i want the chance to try at some point .. well maybe not the world, but i want to make a positive influence..
oh, and does anyone know where i can get a copy of the fountain head? ive looked high and low for both book and movie versions.
ok, found it, bought it, its in the mail, last time i looked on amazon.ca the DVD hadn't been released and there was only 1 used VHS, well i got a nice dvd copy coming and the book too, so,, next time ill look before i ask! heh
One thing every architect needs to learn is how to educate your owner...if your owner is not educated on good design, they will not choose good design-when they say "I want my building to look like this" do you ever ask them why? What do they like about that building-is it the way it makes them feel, or a memory it brings up or what? Do you then suggest ideas that may evoke the same emotion in them but reflect a different design or use products that are environmentally responsible? Do you educate them about light patterns and why you are desiging the windows a certian way-how that will affect mood and how it will affect their heating/cooling bills?
Servicing the client is more than just giving them a cool design-if we want clients to respect our ideas, we need to back them up with logic that they understand. Just like when you go to the doctor-he doesn't speak to you in latin and give you terminology you don't comprehend-he/she usually tries to put it in your terms so you can accept it.
So think about what the client is thinking about-money, schedule, life of the building, work flow-and then present your idea in those terms so they understand that your design takes these things into account whereas that building down the street does not. Then which is really the better deal for them?
I've worked with a lot of Owners and Architects-education is the key to getting your ideas built-educate your owner!!!
you keep saying its an architects EGO, that pushes them to try and fulfill their goals and ideologies? i don't think its their ego, for many people, its why they became an architect, its their passion, they want to create their own vision, and if we don't have a vision or a goal, then why do anything???
if your entire reason for being an architect is to serve the client and give them what they want - with a professional opinion, and nothing more then you will be satisfied with serving the client to help the create their visions. and that can be an extremely fulfilling career. but if i want to create something that is going to have an impact on society, that will improve the science and art of building. then we HAVE to keep trying to do so, as an artist it is my passion to keep trying to but don't get me wrong, im not saying to do this irresponsibly, i'm NOT saying neglect ANY of the clients needs or desires, it IS our responsibility to do this too!! and this is where it gets difficult, how do we do both? is it possible? YES it is, I BELIEVE IT IS!!!! it just doesn't happen everyday. i feel if we keep serving our clients and guide them with their goals then it will influence our goals too, and if we don't loose focus on our goals, we will find the client that will share our passion and vision and let you see your vision though to the end, if they trust you and share your vision, it will happen. but these clients are far and few between. but they do exist, now most of these clients are not rich, not investors, or design build company owners. these people are regular society, and maybe we wont get paid for these jobs maybe our client cant pay us, HEY, maybe our client wont even come to us with their proposal, maybe we need to go to them. sometimes we might need to take a chance and make our ideas known to the world before we find a client. someone will share our visions and then things start to work out.
ya go ahead and say it.. come down to the real world, but the real innovators in the industry didn't conform, they kept their goals in their sights. and i will do this, because if i don't, well i might as well quit this career path. until my time comes, i will keep doing my best to serve the client, give them what they want along with my profession opinions - and not an EGO lesson.
i'm going to try and get involved in some probono work, i think this might be the only way to accomplish some of my goals, because my goals aren't to create a certian style structure or to build my ideal house, no my goal is to positively influence design and building science, while creating structures that positively influence how society interacts with their surroundings, I'm not sure how I'm going to do this yet but ive got some ideas and I'm still new and it will come in time, I'm sure of this. i know you may I've got my head in the clouds and need to come back down to earth but i do not.. I'm very grounded and i can take care of my clients while persuing my goals at the same time. i will not let my personal goals get in the way of a clients needs and wants, i just need to find the right client to fulfill my goals.. and as i said, its probably not going to be the typical client with the big bucks, it will be an innovator or an artist, or someone with a problem. i don't know yet
and tinydancer, i think you have nailed it on the head, we need to do this to help our clients fulfill THEIR goals, we need to fulfill our goals when the time comes, but maybe we can help the client to a greater degree. i always say, architects don't design buildings, clients do, but with our help, maybe the client can design something greater and more appropriate for their needs and wants then they have ever imagined something much more appropriate than the building down the street. our goals will come in time and this process will influence us to see what society needs, maybe our path will skew because of these experiences, but hopefully in a positive way
hmmm,
what if cient is looking for great architecture?
prada by h+deM was not about fulfilling client needs in the way described above...the client actually WANTED the architects to have a vision...do they fail as architects, old fogey? i don't think it is a sin to aspire to that kind of quality in design and architecture. being professional is not easy, but is really just a starting point as far as i am concerned and not enough to aspire to...some may not like rem koolhaas and gehry, but they have had i think a more positive impact on architecture, and maybe even society (at least in bilbao) than a reasonable building done in a reasonable way for a reasonable client. architecture sometimes has to be un-reasonable. like all art, and like all science there is a time when doing things the old way needs to be tested...is where our society grows, where life gets better (maybe worse), and opportunity emerges.
sure, tesla tricked his clients into building some crazy-ass towers for broadcasting power through the air, but he also gave us...well, most of our modern world actually. so is fair trade off. not that a trade is necessary, sometimes it is all good...i think we need to push the limits and have an agenda of our own at all times. living the dreams of others is great, but is even better to have your own, especially when they converge.
if you really wanna be in that realm then maybe raic 10 year program and tech job in office is not going to satisfy you. on other hand you have to make a living, so what to do? maybe try competitions on your own, or join the local AFH and do something real. either way i don't think accepting the status quo is gonna be much fun...but i wish you luck.
OldFogey- still a seamstress-hoping one day to own the band!
Shaner: your comment "come down to the real world, but the real innovators in the industry didn't conform, they kept their goals in their sights." true-innovators kept their goals, but think about Nike and Microsoft, -companies like that-they convinced us we needed their product-through marketing and appealing to us emotionally and logically-they hooked us in-that's what you need to do with your client-you can help them realize their vision and your vision-I understand many architects are artists, but architecture is more than art because you are creating something for a specific use for someone else, not creating something and then putting it out on market. So it still comes down to educating your owner-selling them on your design and influencing them in the best direction in their best interest. There is a balance to create-and that is the challenge, and unfortunately they don't teach that in school-you are finding it out right now-and many people don't want to take the time to educate others, so they conform and give up. Or they get turned down once and give up. So when your boss says no to a design-grill him why-find out the reasoning and then sell him, then you take it to the owner and sell them. But make sure you can back up your design with reason.
"But make sure you can back up your design with reason." - its not design if you cant!
thanks all
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