I am looking for a 3d program to learn. Please advise me on which.
I am:
- not a natural with computers and a 3d novice BUT
- am proficient with autocad 2d
- am looking to devote a good amount of time and effort learning a 3d program
what i need:
- compatibility with 2d autocad
- ability to do photoreal renderings
- am looking to make good still images, not movies
- not looking to model complex shapes and curved surfaces, just basic geometries with good detail and good light
friends have thusfar suggested rhino or form z. thanks in advance.
As far as I know, you're going to have a hard time getting "photo-real" renderings from form-z and rhino.
Photo-real images require knowledge of advanced lighting systems, materials, and render engines--not directly available in these programs....possibly with plug-ins
I would suggest learning 3d CAD and importing or File-Linking your CAD model into 3d MAX. If you know 2d cad, you can teach yourself 3d CAD fairly quickly. And for modelling simple geometries...it comes down to just a few commands. p-line, extrude, slice, subtract, union. This way you don't have to learn how to model in a foreign program.
Then use 3D MAX for everything else....setting up cameras, applying materials, lighting, and rendering. It's this stuff that requires a bit of a learning curve. I would suggest learning the Mental Ray renderer for photo-realistic lighting. This is a pretty complex renderer, but with practice it will produce great images.
rhino-
it's very easy to learn if you know autocad. Lots of the same commands and a command prompt like in cad, which also makes it very fast. (no pointing and clicking). It renders well with the proper plug ins, is not expensive and it very fun! I could go on and on. I LOVE rhino.
I'd have to ditto rhino - especially if you are fluent in autocad's command prompt user interface. Alot of the commands are the same between the two programs. I had done some 3d stuff in Autocad before trying Rhino, and I was zooming away in Rhino after about an hour and a half with the trial version (Compared with just straight modelling in Autocad, Rhino is superior in every conceivable way.). Haven't used vray much, but it does seem to be the best option for a rendering plugin with rhino (otherwise you have to export). There's also maxwell, which looks great on paper....but I can't really get it to do anything.
"- compatibility with 2d autocad
- ability to do photoreal renderings
- am looking to make good still images, not movies
- not looking to model complex shapes and curved surfaces, just basic geometries with good detail and good light"
Sorry guys, but since he's not going to model complex forms, I don't see the use of nurbs based modelling. Autodesk owns both autocad and max.
So you should choose 3ds max, or viz if you're not going to do animation (almost half the price of max), completed with vray render.
You'll also need good photoshop skills for photorealistic renderings.
I'll chime in for FormZ. If you are doing nurbs and school like forms, Rhino is great. But I personally don't know of one firm that uses Rhino. Every firm I know of uses FormZ.
It's an extremely fast modeler for architecture - "normal" architecture.
Those on here using Rhino - a few questions:
1. Are you in a firm? In school?
2. Where are you?
I think the answers will reveal a lot.
FYI - Max is the best for rendering/animation/compatibility (need a certain car or palm tree, np, you can find a Max file). It's modeler is soso for architecture (very slow if you don't have a super graphic card - FormZ rocks on the slowest computers).
I have to agree with French on sticking with the Autodesk suite. I get great results from 3D modeling in CAD, and rendering in either VIZ or 3DS. For an even cheaper alternative, but lacking photorealistic results, render in CAD, save some $$$!
Trace:
I use Rhino. I have worked in three firms, all use Rhino. And there is variety in those firms as well. A boutique, a starchitect, and a corporate office. Rhino has the capability to create very complex nurb models, but it is also very easy to use for simple geometries. The great thing is that you can grow with it and constantly learn more complex aspects of the software. Rhino is great for the 3-d guru and the novice alike!
you can dowload an evaluation version of rhino for free. try it!
also try the flamingo eval version. spend some time playing eith the lighting, the plants, the sun. you'll see how easy and fun it can be. and its all free!!! woohoo!!!!
you can dowload an evaluation version of rhino for free. try it!
also try the flamingo eval version. spend some time playing eith the lighting, the plants, the sun. you'll see how easy and fun it can be. and its all free!!! woohoo!!!!
I'm so happy no one has suggested Sketch-up! Thank God.
I prefer modeling in CAD and Rendering in Max. I would recommend not limiting yourself to one program though. I like Rhino for some things. Max is really tough to model in. Almost every arch office has CAD in some form or another so it would make sense to be familiar with the 3D aspects of the program. There will always be good, new rendering plug-ins and programs that you can import that model into.
Also, check out Revit. Not the be all end all of programs but at least you can build a model and cut sections and plans and build off of it, unlike Sketch-Up or even Max.
3D Studio = 3D Studios Max = 3DS = Max - names have changed over the years, but it's all the same. I think they all suck ;-)
3D Studio Viz = Viz - the "simpler" version of the above program. No character rigging (which meant nothing until mocap data was regularly available - think walking people), less animation, less special effects
Soup - I have no doubt Rhino is a superb modeler - it wouldn't take much to beat Max! Just depends on what you need. If you don't need photoreal renderings, then it doesn't really matter.
From the programs I've used, FormZ is the fastest for architecture.
SketchUp will work, too.
What's wrong with SketchUp? Do people hate it so much because it makes modeling so easy? I can do a great render modeling in SketchUp and rendering in Vue. I think peoples hatred for the program stem from its ease of use and low costs.
...in regards to the the BIM's comment - I think we are waiting for the next generation of Arch Firm Owners and Consultants to get on board (the ones that used computers in school that were smaller than an entire building)
Sketch-up is junky and cumbersome...plus it is a joke. It's interface is childish. Don't insult me with crappy graphics. I remember seeing a tool that looked like a pair of eyeballs...
It's unfortunate that you waste your money on bells and whistles you will never use. I got a student version of sketch-up and a student version of vue and I can create photorealistic renderings that look as good as ones done in CAD, 3ds, Vray, etc.
Nie, I was in the same position as you at one time, dissing SketchUp seemed like the "in" thing to do. Congrats on jumping the bandwagon. Try the program. I mean really try it. You, too, will change your tune.
Chili Davis-
Do as you chose and be "that guy" at LTU. It unfortunate that you jumped on the traditional LTU bandwagon...wrong direction guy.
Also, I use SketchUp at work...because that is all the owner will purchase for modeling. Fortunatly for me, ADT2006 comes with a version of Viz called VizRender and I can actually do some nice things...
pedromartinez-
You can learn sketchup in a day. Would really recomend trying all the programs you can get your hands on and make your own decision. The problem with Rhino and Sketchup is it imports a ton of serfaces and makes life difficult if you render outside of programs.
Chili, what is "vue"?
My office uses sketchup for modeling, but not rendering. No one has mentioned vue. Is it a sketchup plug-in? is there a trial version?
Sketchup - depends on what you want to do with a model. I personally hate it. I will say that it does look better on screen, and so is easier to show an unrendered model to your boss or client and have a conversation. But sketchup tends to bias towards certain notions of what a building is. I find a program like rhino to be much more open. Design a house, design a boat, design a diamond ring, design a city - same basic tool set. Also with a program like rhino there are really no limits to the level of complexity/detail and it is very easy to take a basic sketch/concept model to something that is very real. You can develop shop drawings from a rhino model, you can't do this with sketchup, max or other strictly "visualization" tools. But this goes a little off topic, since pedro is primarily concerned with producing images.
what is it that wangsta said that you are flipping out on?...his comment on formz/rhino not being able to produce photo real renders or autocad as a 3d modeler?...
pedro...since you're not interested in modeling complex shapes and you're already proficient in autocad, you can step up your autocad skills by learning its 3d commands...like wangsta has mentioned, it's only a few more commands that you have to learn in order to model in autocad...then you can render, animate, etc in 3dsmax...
before i learned how to render in 3dsmax, i was rendering in autocad...setting up the camera in autocad is a bit cumbersome...more like trial and error unless you really keep track of coordinates in model space and know camera settings, etc...regardless, autocad can produce some respectable looking 3d models and renders...
plus, you'll get the extra kick of seeing people's surprised and amazed reaction when you tell them that you modeled and rendered your stuff in autocad out of the schematic plans or construction documents that you produced in autocad...kids flip out
Chili Davis good points. Those Sketch Up haters are probably 'visualisers' and for them image is everything.
"Sketch-up is junky and cumbersome...plus it is a joke. It's interface is childish. Don't insult me with crappy graphics." = Idiot
"...but at least you can build a model and cut sections and plans and build off of it, unlike Sketch-Up or even Max. "=wrong
"You can develop shop drawings from a rhino model, you can't do this with sketchup"=wrong
A lot of you haters come accross as wet eared freshers who have a clear opinion without understanding what you are talking about. A few more years experience should moderate these sweeping statements, wake up or your destiny is to be retailed at £9.99
Now lets get back to the architecture and onto those door schedules...
dammson, i'm not looking to be markettable. i have been unmarkettable for my whole career. its too late.
however i do like the thought of beginning with autocad 3d, if its not complicated, because i feel fairly good about my 2d cad skills. what i want to investigate mostly is taking exisiting cad plans and sections and making the lines intersect to become 3d perspectives with light.
if that resulting perspective can be then altered to easily and quickly TEST design changes that i make in plan or section, i'd see this foray into 3d technology a success. it just takes too long to white out or erase a hand drawn perspective every time a feature of detail is changed.
if iterations in 3d cad, or rhino, or form z are as much of a snap as in 2d cad, then the advantage of computer over hand is worth it to me. thats what i want to know.
a bonus is finding a program that also allows tha 3d product to then be sheared backwards to easily created the new, revised section and plan.
I hate sketchup as well.
just doesn't seem worth the time for what you get out of it.
i'd rather model in something that i can easily later get high quality rendering possibilities from.
i use max9.
the most compatible product with autocad is going to be Revit (autodesk as well). For what you are trying to acomplish this has got to be the hands down winner (on the fly sections, as many perspectives as you want, note: just because you can do it dosen't make it good...)
"if that resulting perspective can be then altered to easily and quickly TEST design changes that i make in plan or section,"
it's difficult to judge how easily and quickly it will be for you to alter a 3d model in autocad and i don't want to make it sound as if it's a breeze...making changes in an autocad 3d model will be cumbersome because one task (changing the size of an opening, whatever) will take a few commands and steps just to accomplish that single task...
what you want is an easy and quick coordination between 2d to 3d...i'm tempted to suggest architectural desktop plug-in for autocad but the way you draw your plans, sections on 2d will change versus the way you're used to drawing them in regular autocad...
architectural desktop allows you to draw components in 3d and your 2d drawings will be created from the 3d model...
regular autocad has commands that is suppose to give you the ability to produce 2d drawings from a 3d model...it works when you just need simple 2d drawings but i don't recommend it for producing a sophisticated set of construction documents...
look into emaze's suggestion with revit...just based on the demo i've seen, revit looks like what you need and want...
Pedromartinez:
Try out different 3d packages you can get your hands on. There are a lot of 3d concepts that are non specific so a lot of the knowledge you gain will be cumulative and would cross over between sofware packages. I suggest learning AutoCAD 3D first because you already have good 2d skills.
In the end clients almost never really know what 3d package you used to create an image. If they're happy and you get your idea through with the rendering and of course you get paid, then you're done. You can move on the the next project.
Any of the packages mentioned have learning curves which may sometimes be steep. There's a separate learning curve to 3d modeling, texturing and materials, lighting, animation, compositing etc. Choose the 3d sofware and start modeling.
which 3d program should i teach myself?
I am looking for a 3d program to learn. Please advise me on which.
I am:
- not a natural with computers and a 3d novice BUT
- am proficient with autocad 2d
- am looking to devote a good amount of time and effort learning a 3d program
what i need:
- compatibility with 2d autocad
- ability to do photoreal renderings
- am looking to make good still images, not movies
- not looking to model complex shapes and curved surfaces, just basic geometries with good detail and good light
friends have thusfar suggested rhino or form z. thanks in advance.
Rhino.... +vray plugin
As far as I know, you're going to have a hard time getting "photo-real" renderings from form-z and rhino.
Photo-real images require knowledge of advanced lighting systems, materials, and render engines--not directly available in these programs....possibly with plug-ins
I would suggest learning 3d CAD and importing or File-Linking your CAD model into 3d MAX. If you know 2d cad, you can teach yourself 3d CAD fairly quickly. And for modelling simple geometries...it comes down to just a few commands. p-line, extrude, slice, subtract, union. This way you don't have to learn how to model in a foreign program.
Then use 3D MAX for everything else....setting up cameras, applying materials, lighting, and rendering. It's this stuff that requires a bit of a learning curve. I would suggest learning the Mental Ray renderer for photo-realistic lighting. This is a pretty complex renderer, but with practice it will produce great images.
good luck
rhino-
it's very easy to learn if you know autocad. Lots of the same commands and a command prompt like in cad, which also makes it very fast. (no pointing and clicking). It renders well with the proper plug ins, is not expensive and it very fun! I could go on and on. I LOVE rhino.
thanks.
but why then do people make so much hoopla about rhino and form z? is it really unnecessary complication or is there more upside to r and fz?
I'd have to ditto rhino - especially if you are fluent in autocad's command prompt user interface. Alot of the commands are the same between the two programs. I had done some 3d stuff in Autocad before trying Rhino, and I was zooming away in Rhino after about an hour and a half with the trial version (Compared with just straight modelling in Autocad, Rhino is superior in every conceivable way.). Haven't used vray much, but it does seem to be the best option for a rendering plugin with rhino (otherwise you have to export). There's also maxwell, which looks great on paper....but I can't really get it to do anything.
thanks. lots of rhino fans. no form z boosters?
thanks. lots of rhino fans. no form z boosters?
archiCAD - but you'll need a separate rendering package
"- compatibility with 2d autocad
- ability to do photoreal renderings
- am looking to make good still images, not movies
- not looking to model complex shapes and curved surfaces, just basic geometries with good detail and good light"
Sorry guys, but since he's not going to model complex forms, I don't see the use of nurbs based modelling. Autodesk owns both autocad and max.
So you should choose 3ds max, or viz if you're not going to do animation (almost half the price of max), completed with vray render.
You'll also need good photoshop skills for photorealistic renderings.
I'll chime in for FormZ. If you are doing nurbs and school like forms, Rhino is great. But I personally don't know of one firm that uses Rhino. Every firm I know of uses FormZ.
It's an extremely fast modeler for architecture - "normal" architecture.
Those on here using Rhino - a few questions:
1. Are you in a firm? In school?
2. Where are you?
I think the answers will reveal a lot.
FYI - Max is the best for rendering/animation/compatibility (need a certain car or palm tree, np, you can find a Max file). It's modeler is soso for architecture (very slow if you don't have a super graphic card - FormZ rocks on the slowest computers).
I use Max with Final Render and Vray.
the pencil!
more specifically, HB, 2H, and 4H....~.
ah the pencil. novel thought. i can lie about my spaces with the pencil already. i want to see what kind of lies i can tell with a 3d program.
I have to agree with French on sticking with the Autodesk suite. I get great results from 3D modeling in CAD, and rendering in either VIZ or 3DS. For an even cheaper alternative, but lacking photorealistic results, render in CAD, save some $$$!
Very good Perdro...re:
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=46837_0_42_0_C
If you want a rewarding journey choose Maya. 3ds is not too shabby either. Rhino is probably among the easiest, that is worth the time.
Trace:
I use Rhino. I have worked in three firms, all use Rhino. And there is variety in those firms as well. A boutique, a starchitect, and a corporate office. Rhino has the capability to create very complex nurb models, but it is also very easy to use for simple geometries. The great thing is that you can grow with it and constantly learn more complex aspects of the software. Rhino is great for the 3-d guru and the novice alike!
3d studio + vray
whats the difference between 3d studio, 3dmax, and viz?
you can dowload an evaluation version of rhino for free. try it!
also try the flamingo eval version. spend some time playing eith the lighting, the plants, the sun. you'll see how easy and fun it can be. and its all free!!! woohoo!!!!
you can dowload an evaluation version of rhino for free. try it!
also try the flamingo eval version. spend some time playing eith the lighting, the plants, the sun. you'll see how easy and fun it can be. and its all free!!! woohoo!!!!
I'm so happy no one has suggested Sketch-up! Thank God.
I prefer modeling in CAD and Rendering in Max. I would recommend not limiting yourself to one program though. I like Rhino for some things. Max is really tough to model in. Almost every arch office has CAD in some form or another so it would make sense to be familiar with the 3D aspects of the program. There will always be good, new rendering plug-ins and programs that you can import that model into.
Also, check out Revit. Not the be all end all of programs but at least you can build a model and cut sections and plans and build off of it, unlike Sketch-Up or even Max.
BIM’s are going to be huge in the near future.
pedro -
3D Studio = 3D Studios Max = 3DS = Max - names have changed over the years, but it's all the same. I think they all suck ;-)
3D Studio Viz = Viz - the "simpler" version of the above program. No character rigging (which meant nothing until mocap data was regularly available - think walking people), less animation, less special effects
Soup - I have no doubt Rhino is a superb modeler - it wouldn't take much to beat Max! Just depends on what you need. If you don't need photoreal renderings, then it doesn't really matter.
From the programs I've used, FormZ is the fastest for architecture.
SketchUp will work, too.
What's wrong with SketchUp? Do people hate it so much because it makes modeling so easy? I can do a great render modeling in SketchUp and rendering in Vue. I think peoples hatred for the program stem from its ease of use and low costs.
...in regards to the the BIM's comment - I think we are waiting for the next generation of Arch Firm Owners and Consultants to get on board (the ones that used computers in school that were smaller than an entire building)
Sketch-up is junky and cumbersome...plus it is a joke. It's interface is childish. Don't insult me with crappy graphics. I remember seeing a tool that looked like a pair of eyeballs...
It's unfortunate that you waste your money on bells and whistles you will never use. I got a student version of sketch-up and a student version of vue and I can create photorealistic renderings that look as good as ones done in CAD, 3ds, Vray, etc.
I would love to see them...Please post them...thanks.
Nie, I was in the same position as you at one time, dissing SketchUp seemed like the "in" thing to do. Congrats on jumping the bandwagon. Try the program. I mean really try it. You, too, will change your tune.
SketchUp+Vue+Photoshop=
Chili Davis-
Do as you chose and be "that guy" at LTU. It unfortunate that you jumped on the traditional LTU bandwagon...wrong direction guy.
Also, I use SketchUp at work...because that is all the owner will purchase for modeling. Fortunatly for me, ADT2006 comes with a version of Viz called VizRender and I can actually do some nice things...
pedromartinez-
You can learn sketchup in a day. Would really recomend trying all the programs you can get your hands on and make your own decision. The problem with Rhino and Sketchup is it imports a ton of serfaces and makes life difficult if you render outside of programs.
Chili, what is "vue"?
My office uses sketchup for modeling, but not rendering. No one has mentioned vue. Is it a sketchup plug-in? is there a trial version?
Yes, there are Trial Versions.
Sketchup - depends on what you want to do with a model. I personally hate it. I will say that it does look better on screen, and so is easier to show an unrendered model to your boss or client and have a conversation. But sketchup tends to bias towards certain notions of what a building is. I find a program like rhino to be much more open. Design a house, design a boat, design a diamond ring, design a city - same basic tool set. Also with a program like rhino there are really no limits to the level of complexity/detail and it is very easy to take a basic sketch/concept model to something that is very real. You can develop shop drawings from a rhino model, you can't do this with sketchup, max or other strictly "visualization" tools. But this goes a little off topic, since pedro is primarily concerned with producing images.
rhino + maxwell render have proven to be great in my case.
if maya in the mac was universal binary, i'd be using maya.
sharpie plus moon boot hangers on the ceiling.......
Rhino. Just adding my vote...
VRay for renderings. Though Maxwell is nice too.
wangsta, no. Way off.
maya is fun to play with
super wonder,
what is it that wangsta said that you are flipping out on?...his comment on formz/rhino not being able to produce photo real renders or autocad as a 3d modeler?...
pedro...since you're not interested in modeling complex shapes and you're already proficient in autocad, you can step up your autocad skills by learning its 3d commands...like wangsta has mentioned, it's only a few more commands that you have to learn in order to model in autocad...then you can render, animate, etc in 3dsmax...
before i learned how to render in 3dsmax, i was rendering in autocad...setting up the camera in autocad is a bit cumbersome...more like trial and error unless you really keep track of coordinates in model space and know camera settings, etc...regardless, autocad can produce some respectable looking 3d models and renders...
plus, you'll get the extra kick of seeing people's surprised and amazed reaction when you tell them that you modeled and rendered your stuff in autocad out of the schematic plans or construction documents that you produced in autocad...kids flip out
Chili Davis good points. Those Sketch Up haters are probably 'visualisers' and for them image is everything.
"Sketch-up is junky and cumbersome...plus it is a joke. It's interface is childish. Don't insult me with crappy graphics." = Idiot
"...but at least you can build a model and cut sections and plans and build off of it, unlike Sketch-Up or even Max. "=wrong
"You can develop shop drawings from a rhino model, you can't do this with sketchup"=wrong
A lot of you haters come accross as wet eared freshers who have a clear opinion without understanding what you are talking about. A few more years experience should moderate these sweeping statements, wake up or your destiny is to be retailed at £9.99
Now lets get back to the architecture and onto those door schedules...
pedro,
but if you're trying to make yourself marketable, then look in the job sections to see which software most offices are using...
dammson, i'm not looking to be markettable. i have been unmarkettable for my whole career. its too late.
however i do like the thought of beginning with autocad 3d, if its not complicated, because i feel fairly good about my 2d cad skills. what i want to investigate mostly is taking exisiting cad plans and sections and making the lines intersect to become 3d perspectives with light.
if that resulting perspective can be then altered to easily and quickly TEST design changes that i make in plan or section, i'd see this foray into 3d technology a success. it just takes too long to white out or erase a hand drawn perspective every time a feature of detail is changed.
if iterations in 3d cad, or rhino, or form z are as much of a snap as in 2d cad, then the advantage of computer over hand is worth it to me. thats what i want to know.
a bonus is finding a program that also allows tha 3d product to then be sheared backwards to easily created the new, revised section and plan.
I hate sketchup as well.
just doesn't seem worth the time for what you get out of it.
i'd rather model in something that i can easily later get high quality rendering possibilities from.
i use max9.
easy integration with autocad is a plus...
why limiting to one?
Haters!
the most compatible product with autocad is going to be Revit (autodesk as well). For what you are trying to acomplish this has got to be the hands down winner (on the fly sections, as many perspectives as you want, note: just because you can do it dosen't make it good...)
"BOTS" = dickhead
pedro,
"if that resulting perspective can be then altered to easily and quickly TEST design changes that i make in plan or section,"
it's difficult to judge how easily and quickly it will be for you to alter a 3d model in autocad and i don't want to make it sound as if it's a breeze...making changes in an autocad 3d model will be cumbersome because one task (changing the size of an opening, whatever) will take a few commands and steps just to accomplish that single task...
what you want is an easy and quick coordination between 2d to 3d...i'm tempted to suggest architectural desktop plug-in for autocad but the way you draw your plans, sections on 2d will change versus the way you're used to drawing them in regular autocad...
architectural desktop allows you to draw components in 3d and your 2d drawings will be created from the 3d model...
regular autocad has commands that is suppose to give you the ability to produce 2d drawings from a 3d model...it works when you just need simple 2d drawings but i don't recommend it for producing a sophisticated set of construction documents...
look into emaze's suggestion with revit...just based on the demo i've seen, revit looks like what you need and want...
have fun...
Pedromartinez:
Try out different 3d packages you can get your hands on. There are a lot of 3d concepts that are non specific so a lot of the knowledge you gain will be cumulative and would cross over between sofware packages. I suggest learning AutoCAD 3D first because you already have good 2d skills.
In the end clients almost never really know what 3d package you used to create an image. If they're happy and you get your idea through with the rendering and of course you get paid, then you're done. You can move on the the next project.
Any of the packages mentioned have learning curves which may sometimes be steep. There's a separate learning curve to 3d modeling, texturing and materials, lighting, animation, compositing etc. Choose the 3d sofware and start modeling.
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