Pedro,
are you rendering buildings/shapes that are amorphic and complex, or more rectilinear?
for the former i would say rhino, based on what i've heard about it because i have no experience (trying it at home though), and for the latter i would suggest sketchup....because it is FAST and EASY and FREE....but i'll leave my taste in women out if this ;). it can do basic shadow studies....maybe take chili's advice on "vue"???
pedromartinez – to reiterate Cris's statement – these are only tools; don’t get worked up about it. Obtain a copy of said suggestions or download trial versions and see which one(s) tickles your fancy. They all have pros and cons and picking a tool has a lot to do with personal preferences.
guppy - to expand our discussion beyond the banal name calling.
I agree with the flexibility of rhino however as an architects tool in practice it is considered a specialist program. I guess those studying as oposed to practicing may find the experimental nature of shape forming usefull. I do wonder whether the time spent learning comlex modelling software may be more productively spent studying the 7 lamps of Architecture or understanding some other quality read. Sketch up bridges a gap in practice between simple input (learning the program and inputting data) and information output (quick 3D realisation and investigation).
I used version 1 of rhino for modeling and cinema 4d for rendering back in school (shape forming stuff). Im a big fan of both but dont know of too many offices that use them. Now its autocad and 3ds, unfortunatly autodesk controls most of the market. Most established firms dont seem to stray.
I learned autocad 3d first, it made learning other 3d apps easier. I find knowing autocad 3d, 3ds, revit and sketchup the way to go.
For me sketchup is great for down and dirty modelling (and cause the "Clients love it", really!,) 3ds for rendering, autocad for complex arch. models, revit for MEP coordination.
do2, my last 4 offices used Rhino. It may just be location.
I'd like to see Rhino eventually be that do-all program. Just needs xrefs. I am surprised AutoCAD hasn't aped many of the features, like autocomplete text and nicely label dynamic osnap.
But then again would I use Explorer just because it copies Mozilla? No.
I think this thread has gone far beyond what it was intended to be....but hey...
BOTS: sorry about the banal name calling - I was blowing off steam after an annoying client call....I work, but I try to keep the backs of my ears as wet as possible nonetheless.....
I actually couldn't care less what program someone else uses (unless of course its my employer and it affects my daily life). My rhino boosterism boils down to this:
Yes you can do all the complex nurbsy models you want. But you can also model an A-frame house just as well. Basically I gravitated towards it initially because I could do everything I was doing in 3d autocad (and in a basically identical way) with a much more comfortable interface (orbiting around and modelling in perspective are difficult in autocad). In other words it was an ease of use issue initially. I hate learning software and would actually rather read books than do tutorials. As time has gone on I've been able to grow with the software and discover its potentials both for visualization and for fabrication. It would be interesting to see a thread about the role of 3d modelling in architecture in general. It strikes me that there is a lot of potential there beyond the production of images. I suppose this is what the "BIM revolution" is about, though no one really knows where that is going yet. Cheers.
our job as archtiects comes down to this: we portray the final product through some sort of shorthand: romans used a stake in the ground and string of a certain length to indicate how a cylinder should be constructed, we use, now, plan and section. some use the third dimension too. work and tools and methods. utility, my oh my.
now we'd be foolish and retrograde for the sake of being egyptian to be roman without acknowledging the value of the stake and string. so in the same vein, lets try to see what the value of technology is, without somehow placing so much importance in it as to quibble over the v8 or the v6 as opposed to simply what the combustion engine simply has gotten us. which is distance traversed in a shorter span of time.
so all i want to know is this: what tool can best illustrate the lie of the third dimension printed out in two dimensions with the least amount of effort and the most amount specificity?
what, in other words, is the best tool for the portrayal of the instruction necessary to woo myslef and some potential client and builder into imagining the procuct which shall be built according to the vision which exists somewhere between my synapses and my fingertips?
That's subjective. I create different images for different clients and even different ones for myself.
Design - sketch-like, rough renders, etc.
Marketing or Public - photoreal
Some architect's don't like to show photoreal too soon and I can understand that. I prefer a balance for competition images. For pure marketing images, nothing can compare to the best photo real.
Different needs, different solutions.
Rhino, unfortunately, will never make it past a niche market (without joining with some other major player). Autodesk, with Max and Maya, own the market.
Rhino is lacking animation capabilities and that's a huge limiatioin. It may model and render (via plugins), but it's not a versatile program. C4D, and possibly Modo (once they get the animation in there) will be alternatives as peole get more tired of paying Max's outrageous cost.
I hate Max's modeler, but like Autocad, it's the standard and it cost a ton to deviate from the norm (from a business owner's perspective).
Pedro, do you have an image or examples of what type of rendering you'd like to achieve in the "least amount of effort and the most amount of specificity?"
There are a couple of places online you can get video tutorials to get you up and running quickly.
VTC - tutorials for AutoCAD, Rhino, 3dsMax, Adobe Products & More. Lynda.com - 3dsmax, Maya tutorials Gnomon - Maya, 3dsmax, Vray, Zbrush etc. DVDs CG Academy - 3dsmax DVDs
trace is probably right about the niche market, but I stand by Rhino as a modeler (and with plug-ins renderer and animator - but we don't need animations for this thread). In my opinion, it has the best interface. I can't say whether it will leave the niche market, though I do believe that Autodesk is paying attention.
On a side note, my friend makes high end bass guitars. He has always used Rhino to design the plastic pick-up covers. And recently we met to consider 3d milling the complex body shapes using NURBS.
I think Rhino has some serious legs in the product design world. No other "main stream" company prides itself in "curve continuity" and boasts the precision of major CAD softwares in one same software. And as long as young architects look to product design, Rhino may be right there to offer its capabilities.
Kent Larson, (if he's the guy you're referring to) used Lightscape for those renderings.
Lightscape has been incorporated into 3ds max but I personally like using either Vray, Brazil, Final Render or Mental Ray myself depending on the project, the client and turnaround time.
Our workflow usually goes from AutoCAD 2D (usually supplied by client) imported into 3dsmax and extruded or lofted then rendered and animated there with Photoshop and Combustion or AfterEffects for material maps and post. I don't import the whole AutoCAD drawing however but wblock selected polylines (which become splines in 3ds max)
Now that Maya is an Autodesk product I believe you can have a similar workflow rather than working with a raster image as a template.
For more organic modeling we opt to model directly in 3dsmax.
There's a nurbs plugin for 3dsmax from NPower Software (PowerNurbs) that we like using if we need to export the models out to IGES or STL.
maybe a good question would be 'do you want to design with the 3d program or just model'?
Form-Z is a great design tool, for exploring and developing 3d ideas, and its toolset for achieving this is unparalleled, and faster than any of the competitors.
Rhino is a great modeling tool for when you already know what you are going to build and just need to construct it, or if you just 3d-point scan in a wacky crumple paper model and need to 'tweak' it (a-la gehry). or if you have a bitchin' script to make something uber-cool.
i've used both, both have their positives and negatives, and both are directly compatible with autocad. if you want to render in max though, there are far less problems exporting scenes from formz. rhino produces poor results consistently into max.
big question though, as stated earlier, do you want '3d' to design with or just build with?
punky, it'd be great to be able to design with 3d software, not just render. there's a co-worker who strongly advocates formz. he agrees with you that its what i'm looking for.
Learn Revit as your basic software. With this software you can create your model in 3d and substract 2d plans, section and elevations. Because it is a BIM model, it has information in it so you are able to schedule everything and make cost estimates during the design process. Learn Rhino or Formz if you want to make very very complex geometry. This can be imported back in revit for further development and documentation of the model. And finally if you need a high end rendering and animation software, learn max. The revit model can be linked in 3ds max or viz without losing any information
Sketchup if your project is very orthogonal and all you want is quick visualizations or light studies.
Rhino for anything involving complex curves, or for a more complex rendering. Easy interface (more intuitive for me than Sketchup, and very similar to Autocad). Exports well to most programs.
Maya for animations. Imports well from Rhino.
Personally I don't like FormZ. I find its interface clunky, and it is not a true nurbs program, so it doesn't export well to Maya, e.g.
which 3d program should i teach myself?
Pedro,
are you rendering buildings/shapes that are amorphic and complex, or more rectilinear?
for the former i would say rhino, based on what i've heard about it because i have no experience (trying it at home though), and for the latter i would suggest sketchup....because it is FAST and EASY and FREE....but i'll leave my taste in women out if this ;). it can do basic shadow studies....maybe take chili's advice on "vue"???
it's funny to see people get so worked up over what program they use. geez guys, lighten up, it's only software!
MAX 4 LIFE...HATERZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
pedromartinez – to reiterate Cris's statement – these are only tools; don’t get worked up about it. Obtain a copy of said suggestions or download trial versions and see which one(s) tickles your fancy. They all have pros and cons and picking a tool has a lot to do with personal preferences.
guppy - to expand our discussion beyond the banal name calling.
I agree with the flexibility of rhino however as an architects tool in practice it is considered a specialist program. I guess those studying as oposed to practicing may find the experimental nature of shape forming usefull. I do wonder whether the time spent learning comlex modelling software may be more productively spent studying the 7 lamps of Architecture or understanding some other quality read. Sketch up bridges a gap in practice between simple input (learning the program and inputting data) and information output (quick 3D realisation and investigation).
Clients love it.
I used version 1 of rhino for modeling and cinema 4d for rendering back in school (shape forming stuff). Im a big fan of both but dont know of too many offices that use them. Now its autocad and 3ds, unfortunatly autodesk controls most of the market. Most established firms dont seem to stray.
I learned autocad 3d first, it made learning other 3d apps easier. I find knowing autocad 3d, 3ds, revit and sketchup the way to go.
For me sketchup is great for down and dirty modelling (and cause the "Clients love it", really!,) 3ds for rendering, autocad for complex arch. models, revit for MEP coordination.
Can anyone think of a do-all program?
more like this
do2, my last 4 offices used Rhino. It may just be location.
I'd like to see Rhino eventually be that do-all program. Just needs xrefs. I am surprised AutoCAD hasn't aped many of the features, like autocomplete text and nicely label dynamic osnap.
But then again would I use Explorer just because it copies Mozilla? No.
I think this thread has gone far beyond what it was intended to be....but hey...
BOTS: sorry about the banal name calling - I was blowing off steam after an annoying client call....I work, but I try to keep the backs of my ears as wet as possible nonetheless.....
I actually couldn't care less what program someone else uses (unless of course its my employer and it affects my daily life). My rhino boosterism boils down to this:
Yes you can do all the complex nurbsy models you want. But you can also model an A-frame house just as well. Basically I gravitated towards it initially because I could do everything I was doing in 3d autocad (and in a basically identical way) with a much more comfortable interface (orbiting around and modelling in perspective are difficult in autocad). In other words it was an ease of use issue initially. I hate learning software and would actually rather read books than do tutorials. As time has gone on I've been able to grow with the software and discover its potentials both for visualization and for fabrication. It would be interesting to see a thread about the role of 3d modelling in architecture in general. It strikes me that there is a lot of potential there beyond the production of images. I suppose this is what the "BIM revolution" is about, though no one really knows where that is going yet. Cheers.
our job as archtiects comes down to this: we portray the final product through some sort of shorthand: romans used a stake in the ground and string of a certain length to indicate how a cylinder should be constructed, we use, now, plan and section. some use the third dimension too. work and tools and methods. utility, my oh my.
now we'd be foolish and retrograde for the sake of being egyptian to be roman without acknowledging the value of the stake and string. so in the same vein, lets try to see what the value of technology is, without somehow placing so much importance in it as to quibble over the v8 or the v6 as opposed to simply what the combustion engine simply has gotten us. which is distance traversed in a shorter span of time.
so all i want to know is this: what tool can best illustrate the lie of the third dimension printed out in two dimensions with the least amount of effort and the most amount specificity?
what, in other words, is the best tool for the portrayal of the instruction necessary to woo myslef and some potential client and builder into imagining the procuct which shall be built according to the vision which exists somewhere between my synapses and my fingertips?
That's subjective. I create different images for different clients and even different ones for myself.
Design - sketch-like, rough renders, etc.
Marketing or Public - photoreal
Some architect's don't like to show photoreal too soon and I can understand that. I prefer a balance for competition images. For pure marketing images, nothing can compare to the best photo real.
Different needs, different solutions.
Rhino, unfortunately, will never make it past a niche market (without joining with some other major player). Autodesk, with Max and Maya, own the market.
Rhino is lacking animation capabilities and that's a huge limiatioin. It may model and render (via plugins), but it's not a versatile program. C4D, and possibly Modo (once they get the animation in there) will be alternatives as peole get more tired of paying Max's outrageous cost.
I hate Max's modeler, but like Autocad, it's the standard and it cost a ton to deviate from the norm (from a business owner's perspective).
Pedro, do you have an image or examples of what type of rendering you'd like to achieve in the "least amount of effort and the most amount of specificity?"
There are a couple of places online you can get video tutorials to get you up and running quickly.
VTC - tutorials for AutoCAD, Rhino, 3dsMax, Adobe Products & More.
Lynda.com - 3dsmax, Maya tutorials
Gnomon - Maya, 3dsmax, Vray, Zbrush etc. DVDs
CG Academy - 3dsmax DVDs
remonio, those renderings of unbuilt kahn blgs by the mit guy come to mind.
trace is probably right about the niche market, but I stand by Rhino as a modeler (and with plug-ins renderer and animator - but we don't need animations for this thread). In my opinion, it has the best interface. I can't say whether it will leave the niche market, though I do believe that Autodesk is paying attention.
On a side note, my friend makes high end bass guitars. He has always used Rhino to design the plastic pick-up covers. And recently we met to consider 3d milling the complex body shapes using NURBS.
I think Rhino has some serious legs in the product design world. No other "main stream" company prides itself in "curve continuity" and boasts the precision of major CAD softwares in one same software. And as long as young architects look to product design, Rhino may be right there to offer its capabilities.
Kent Larson, (if he's the guy you're referring to) used Lightscape for those renderings.
Lightscape has been incorporated into 3ds max but I personally like using either Vray, Brazil, Final Render or Mental Ray myself depending on the project, the client and turnaround time.
Our workflow usually goes from AutoCAD 2D (usually supplied by client) imported into 3dsmax and extruded or lofted then rendered and animated there with Photoshop and Combustion or AfterEffects for material maps and post. I don't import the whole AutoCAD drawing however but wblock selected polylines (which become splines in 3ds max)
Now that Maya is an Autodesk product I believe you can have a similar workflow rather than working with a raster image as a template.
For more organic modeling we opt to model directly in 3dsmax.
There's a nurbs plugin for 3dsmax from NPower Software (PowerNurbs) that we like using if we need to export the models out to IGES or STL.
maybe a good question would be 'do you want to design with the 3d program or just model'?
Form-Z is a great design tool, for exploring and developing 3d ideas, and its toolset for achieving this is unparalleled, and faster than any of the competitors.
Rhino is a great modeling tool for when you already know what you are going to build and just need to construct it, or if you just 3d-point scan in a wacky crumple paper model and need to 'tweak' it (a-la gehry). or if you have a bitchin' script to make something uber-cool.
i've used both, both have their positives and negatives, and both are directly compatible with autocad. if you want to render in max though, there are far less problems exporting scenes from formz. rhino produces poor results consistently into max.
big question though, as stated earlier, do you want '3d' to design with or just build with?
punky, it'd be great to be able to design with 3d software, not just render. there's a co-worker who strongly advocates formz. he agrees with you that its what i'm looking for.
Punky, you could use NPower Translatros to import Rhino into Max with great results.
Learn Revit as your basic software. With this software you can create your model in 3d and substract 2d plans, section and elevations. Because it is a BIM model, it has information in it so you are able to schedule everything and make cost estimates during the design process. Learn Rhino or Formz if you want to make very very complex geometry. This can be imported back in revit for further development and documentation of the model. And finally if you need a high end rendering and animation software, learn max. The revit model can be linked in 3ds max or viz without losing any information
Revit, Rhino, Max
Sketchup if your project is very orthogonal and all you want is quick visualizations or light studies.
Rhino for anything involving complex curves, or for a more complex rendering. Easy interface (more intuitive for me than Sketchup, and very similar to Autocad). Exports well to most programs.
Maya for animations. Imports well from Rhino.
Personally I don't like FormZ. I find its interface clunky, and it is not a true nurbs program, so it doesn't export well to Maya, e.g.
Graham
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.