For those of you managing projects, I'm interested in the MEP, Structural, and Civil consultant fees that you would typically see. Like most smaller firms, we generally take on none of these disciplines ourselves.
Specifically, when your own fees are based upon a percentage of construction costs, what's your typical percentage payout to each of these consultants?
It seems like our firm is pretty willy-nilly on this issue, so I'd appreciate some advice.
structural: 18.3%
MEP: 13.7%
(leaving arch 68%...we drew up all civil, no parking, etc. req'd)
these were bargin basement numbers. On a complicated remodel with seismic upgrades, we've seen structural at 30% or more...
(To qualify this posted question a little bit, I'm talking about projects typically in the 2 - 10 million or so range.)
Well what about this: We work with some pretty reasonable structural and civil guys, and their number are always quite low. But I'm roughing out some numbers here, and it appears that our MEP consultants are routinely charging an amount that figures up to about 40 percent of our total design fees. To me that seems like pretty tall cash. How typical does 40 percent for just the MEP sound for any of you?
i didn't answer before because we see such a range from project to project. seeing your more specific question, though: we don't have a 'typical', but i'm not surprised by the 40% number.
Rim, 40% for MEP only sounds exactly like what we were seeing, at my old firm, from an MEP firm we had done a lot of work with, who was not only comfortable working with us but was maybe too comfortable that we would always use them, and yet were also so busy that even though they had hired a bunch of new people they were still constantly missing our deadlines/forgetting stuff/making mistakes. Our firm owner had a "come to jesus" talk with the MEP firm's owner and they shaped up, and lowered their fees, though I don't remember to what.
So in short, yes, 40% for just MEP sounds like tall cash to me, too. Though I think it is typical for the MEP to be higher than the structural.
And it could also have been argued at my old firm that we maybe weren't charging enough ourselves, and thus the MEP was figuring as too high a percentage.
If your talking to a Developer they expect that the consultants on the whole should be about 5-6% total. so you can expect probably maybe 3-4% (60%) of the consultants budget. I don't agree with it but its there expectation.
liberty,
I didn't know the 'come to jesus' phrase was widespread!
We do them occasionally, too - though usually the context is a contractor who's ramping up for a fight.
I thought it was a local term.
As for the subject at hand - I think that the market has seen an overall increase in the cost of MEP work and it has become a bigger slice of construction costs, and the engineers are reflecting this in thier fees. I doubt it is a temporary thing.
LB and Freq -- good (and bad) to know that these fees are typical in your experience --
Your second post is probably pointing where I need to get to, LB -- I think this firm has been clunking along on some old assumptions and rules of thumb and hasn't kept up -- You're probably right, we need to increase OUR fees to cover higher MEP increases. I'm free to negotiate with consultants, but the partners handle the final say on client fees. And, as we all know, asking for more fee, well, that is definitely something most architects can hardly muster the stones to do...
in our market, it seems as though SMEP fees are pretty stable but civil fees have become astronomical (assuming you can get a civil engineer to respond to a proposal). anyone else seeing this?
freq, I only heard the term recently and I've been using a lot because I like it so much! And I agree, MEP fees have been going up recently, and I don't think it's temporary either, as they really do have a big chunk of responsibility on the project.
So that leaves us, Rim, needing to raise our own fees to keep in line, as you suggest.
el jeffe, I know civil requirements have gotten bigger recently, so no doubt their fees have too. And I can sympathize with the frustration over them never returning phone calls...in Philly I had a firm whose initials are GWS who were absolutely wonderful, but every other civil I've worked with has been a disaster. Engineers are like carpenters, though: when you find a really good one, you hang on tight, even if it means paying a little more.
Oct 10, 06 2:16 pm ·
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Consultant Fees
For those of you managing projects, I'm interested in the MEP, Structural, and Civil consultant fees that you would typically see. Like most smaller firms, we generally take on none of these disciplines ourselves.
Specifically, when your own fees are based upon a percentage of construction costs, what's your typical percentage payout to each of these consultants?
It seems like our firm is pretty willy-nilly on this issue, so I'd appreciate some advice.
a recent small project:
structural: 18.3%
MEP: 13.7%
(leaving arch 68%...we drew up all civil, no parking, etc. req'd)
these were bargin basement numbers. On a complicated remodel with seismic upgrades, we've seen structural at 30% or more...
a rule of thumb that i've been taught is that the consultants should take between 35-40% of the total fee, thus leaving 65-60% for the architect...
(To qualify this posted question a little bit, I'm talking about projects typically in the 2 - 10 million or so range.)
Well what about this: We work with some pretty reasonable structural and civil guys, and their number are always quite low. But I'm roughing out some numbers here, and it appears that our MEP consultants are routinely charging an amount that figures up to about 40 percent of our total design fees. To me that seems like pretty tall cash. How typical does 40 percent for just the MEP sound for any of you?
i didn't answer before because we see such a range from project to project. seeing your more specific question, though: we don't have a 'typical', but i'm not surprised by the 40% number.
Rim, 40% for MEP only sounds exactly like what we were seeing, at my old firm, from an MEP firm we had done a lot of work with, who was not only comfortable working with us but was maybe too comfortable that we would always use them, and yet were also so busy that even though they had hired a bunch of new people they were still constantly missing our deadlines/forgetting stuff/making mistakes. Our firm owner had a "come to jesus" talk with the MEP firm's owner and they shaped up, and lowered their fees, though I don't remember to what.
So in short, yes, 40% for just MEP sounds like tall cash to me, too. Though I think it is typical for the MEP to be higher than the structural.
And it could also have been argued at my old firm that we maybe weren't charging enough ourselves, and thus the MEP was figuring as too high a percentage.
If your talking to a Developer they expect that the consultants on the whole should be about 5-6% total. so you can expect probably maybe 3-4% (60%) of the consultants budget. I don't agree with it but its there expectation.
liberty,
I didn't know the 'come to jesus' phrase was widespread!
We do them occasionally, too - though usually the context is a contractor who's ramping up for a fight.
I thought it was a local term.
As for the subject at hand - I think that the market has seen an overall increase in the cost of MEP work and it has become a bigger slice of construction costs, and the engineers are reflecting this in thier fees. I doubt it is a temporary thing.
LB and Freq -- good (and bad) to know that these fees are typical in your experience --
Your second post is probably pointing where I need to get to, LB -- I think this firm has been clunking along on some old assumptions and rules of thumb and hasn't kept up -- You're probably right, we need to increase OUR fees to cover higher MEP increases. I'm free to negotiate with consultants, but the partners handle the final say on client fees. And, as we all know, asking for more fee, well, that is definitely something most architects can hardly muster the stones to do...
in our market, it seems as though SMEP fees are pretty stable but civil fees have become astronomical (assuming you can get a civil engineer to respond to a proposal). anyone else seeing this?
freq, I only heard the term recently and I've been using a lot because I like it so much! And I agree, MEP fees have been going up recently, and I don't think it's temporary either, as they really do have a big chunk of responsibility on the project.
So that leaves us, Rim, needing to raise our own fees to keep in line, as you suggest.
el jeffe, I know civil requirements have gotten bigger recently, so no doubt their fees have too. And I can sympathize with the frustration over them never returning phone calls...in Philly I had a firm whose initials are GWS who were absolutely wonderful, but every other civil I've worked with has been a disaster. Engineers are like carpenters, though: when you find a really good one, you hang on tight, even if it means paying a little more.
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