if you're 'ok' with the salary # under normal 40/wk conditions, divide it out to see what it is per/hr. tell them you want that $ per hour. if they don't want to give it to you, screw them, find someone who pays a fairer wage.

i've turned down a lot of 'good' jobs, not because i'm money grubbing or greedy, but because i respect myself as an employee and demand to be treated as such. it's not selfish to look out for yourself.

there are a lot of jobs right now. use your power wisely.
good luck!

salary comes with progressing in the profession, imo. at a certain point, yes, it doesn't look good on paper. but that's the point in your career where it's expected that you're taking control of your time management. you're expected to do what it takes to get things done.

disclaimer: if you will NOT be put in a position where you get to manage your own time and you will have to answer to the bidding of a manager who might watch the clock when you arrive and leave, this is not a good situation. salary should come with the ability to have personal control of your time.

$ per hour is a dead end. they'll be hesitant to promote you as long as you remain hourly.

Don't rush to assume the company is trying to confuse you or get you at the cheapest rate. Any decent employer will want to pay you well so as to not risk losing a good employee. A little more background on the job you are being offered would help us evaluate if salary or hourly makes more sense. But as Steven mentioned, eventually you'll have to accept a salary if you want to get anywhere in this profession.

if you don't like the offer, don't take the job ... what's the point of whining ?

they are trying to get you for the cheapest possible rate ... just like you're trying to snag a job at the highest possible rate ... that's the nature of the process ... your objectives and the firm's objectives are not necessarily the same when it comes to compensation ... in many ways, it's just like buying a car ... the dealer wants the highest possible price / you want to pay the lowest possible price ... that doesn't make either party inherently evil.

having said that, it doesn't mean you have to be in an adversarial position with your employer, unless you just want to walk through life with a chip on your shoulder. "A" is correct ... at the end of the day, any decent employer is going to look for a solution that is fundamentally fair to both parties ... that sometimes takes a dialogue and some give-and-take by both parties ... any solution that is fundamentally unfair to either party is doomed from the start.

its for the exhibit industry...... and they work alot prior to the detroit autoshow...crunch time..... i can see if i have worked there for a few years then they offered salary but they are trying to hire me in as salary... position is for detailing/construction doc and basically in arch terms...d.d./c.d.

so far all the exhibit houses i have talked/interviewed at tell me that i dont really have exhibit experience...hmmm..... whats the difference between design/build/construction and exhibits?..... same ideas just a different termiology....

i'm not really into salary at this stage right now.........

thanks
b

Go for the hourly, and make them pay thru the nose......

Remember, the less they pay you, the bigger their bottom line is.

keep in mind that when you're paid hourly, the firm will tend to focus much more on your hour-to-hour productivity ... for example, they'll be much less tolerant of you taking time to post on archinect ... be sure you want to work under that level of scrutiny.

if you're going to get the same total pay either way, why not just go for the salary ... what's the diff ?

difference is that since i'm getting hired in at "crunch time" then once the crunch is over, i can get layed off/let go/etc..... so then the salary is pointless.......

they based the salary on working 5 hours of ot a week over a year...... but with that said, there's no gaurentee in this so i would rather have my cash as i earn it and then look for work when things slow down....

maybe i'm looking at it wrong but when you buy milk and bread at the store, you have to pay for both

b

well ... if you're that worried about getting laid off, then maybe you shouldn't be going to this firm ... find a place where you can build a career.

i can understand your position 237, but your view maybe short sighted. maybe not, but i think by saying you will only accept hourly when the employer would prefer salary says to the employer that you will be the first to go when cuts come. no ifs, ands, or buts. employers like to know that their employees are team players and that they are there for more than just the money. these comments in no way mean that you shouldn't get paid fairly for the value you bring to the firm. just a thought.

e,

i understand your point.... i wouldnt mind being a team player but the timing seems to be off to offer salary....... i can see if i was employed for a year or so then was offered salary but for now, i'm just looking for time=money equation....

plus i need cash for grad school...thats one of the main reasons.....

life is a hustle

237- ok, you're showing a little ignorance about what you'll be getting into with designing expo booths. here are a few of the major differnces of archiecture vs expos:

-scenery is mobile so requires designing into modules/sections with easily assembled field joints that look good, ships well, is are light weight, and can adapt to different configurations

-expo fire codes are different then your typical building, no 2-hr assemblies, but need for flame resistant and low smoke materials per fire marshal at each expo hall

-is assembled by teamsters, depending on the hall, different unions control the set up, you'll need to the limitations between stretch-wrapping things together or bolting them together

-eye candy, no need to be functional, just flashy (oh, this is what blobitecture is)

-time is critical the carpenters in the shop will probably have each wall half fabricated by the time you finish the drawings, better be quick with the pencil

Back in LA, the scenery houses tended to pay between $250-$400 day for drafting on commercials/music videos/trade shows & expos. This was as a freelancer, with my own set of tools/computer and a set designer union card. And no, you won't be able to date the models hired at the show, even if you're sent to supervise the set-up.

life is about relationships. relationships are not a hustle. best of luck.

oh - I see - so, the cat's out of the bag - you're worried about them not being loyal to you, but you're using them to build a stash for grad school and will walk out on them the moment it suites you - this is nothing more than a commercial transaction.

I'm guessing they've already figured you out and aren't much inclined to be abused.

i know about the exhibit industry and how things need to be crated/assembly/union workers/etc.... i was at another exhibit house for a minute and was able to put my foot in the door...then work slowed and i was let go...... relationships dont really mean anything these days...is there's no work then people get fired and let go...... no work/no money/no jobs..... just like the auto industry... my uncles are doing the buy outs after 20+ years working for a company that was supposed to look out for there own

whats the point of working for someone if they cant afford you?... would you like to work for shit money when the guy next to you gets paid more and doesnt perform as well as you?.... i've been there.... companies try to get you for the lowest buck...... it's not about relationships....it's about time/performance/money........

if you want to pay me 10 bucks an hour then i'll give you a 10 dollar performance...thats that........ dont think i'm gonna go out on a limb for anyone if they dont respect what i can do.......

sure, alot of people may think i'm an ass for stating this but on a serious note....it boils down to the dollar....... if you are worth it and they pay then there's no problems.... thats why there's negotiations.... find that dollar that everyone agrees on......


and i have had relationship with clients and in the end i got burned by them since it was about the dollar...i did the work and they screwed me on payment.....contracts/lawyers/etc........ it's all money......

and jabber saying me abusing them...shit....... why do you think they offered me salary in the beginning?..not to think this way...but after crunch time and working 60-80 hour days and getting paid for 45, you think they could easily "let me go" and i cant say anything about it......

sure, i can take the offer but i wont be happy and that would reflect onto my work......

just my views...... and my concerns.... not being an ass but just because i'm not taking salary then i'm abusing the fact?...hmmm

Depending on your experience level you should still be able to get an hourly rate and be eligible for OT. Just depends if you are in a decision making role as a "professional" where you would typically be on salary. Still if the hourly is paying the same even with the OT then I'd get outta there if it isn't the number you're lookign for.

hmmm i had some contact with a scenic company that does primarily all auto show work. they were all union guys.

237, i'm not sure why you came for advice. you seem to know the answer you want.

i figured an answer, i just wanted different views thats all...... some times i tend to over look things and learn the hard way......

this is more of a personal thing than a service that i could provide....

i have been self-employed for 6 years and have been able to give clients more than what they pay for...to keep the relationship.... recently i have been thinking of contracting myself out...hence the salary/hourly rates/etc....

one service is business to business
other is personal to business..... hence the topic...


thanks for the input though........


and all the shop people are union..the office isnt....


b

I see your point 237. there has been several times when I was going to leave at the normal quit time at work and the boss just looks at me wierd, and then to his watch, and back at me with a nasty look. like its expected that I work 1.5 hrs of overtime a day. I dont see the extra in my check.... but its somethin gI've been thinking about, and just wanted to say I agree with you, but its a tricky situation

seems to me this thread cuts very close to the concept of what it means to be a "professional" ... in my view, the "trades" work hourly, while a "professional" does what's necessary to get the job done.

know that doesn't help a lot when you're trying to get food on the table for a growing family, but it is an important distinction that says a lot about one's self-concept

Ive heard as a rule of thumb dont go for salery unless you are getting at least 25% more than estemated hourly or youll come out upside down.

salary is a great boon.... for employers

This is an interesting topic. Lately I'm thinking, when the job is very busy, we have to work overtime, in my office the policy is the overtime you work, you can only use within two weeks before or after the peirod, to make pay roller easier. And you need to get aproval from the principal or project manager. I found it's hard to do it. But at same time, the office has flexible hours, no one is watching you. So you can just adjust your own time. I'm not even sure if I'm on salary or hourly, but I make sure I don't work over the time I got paid.

Also as think as professional, people shouldn't work hourly. It should be task based. And you make your own hours and schedule, like a lot of computer companies. They have much flexible hours and freedom in general. There is always cycle of up and down, busy and not busy. Why should you stay at your desk same amount of time when you are not busy? Why not go out and play?

Are you talking salary (employee) vs. an hourly independant contractor? That scenario is much different than just the hourly/salaried debate, since as an employee your social security, benefits and unemployment would be covered...

I think everyone here means as an employee, not independant contractor.

employee...

i would like contractor better....

my thing is that if the cycle is slow, i can look for other work to hold me over... i'm venturing in a few different markets so a few small jobs here will help out....... but now, i finding out that these little small quick jobs is what is keeping me afloat........ i would like a few large model jobs though.....

b

237 is almost spot on,
they want to screw him over. it's not about being fair for both party's, hah! their in a crunch, their highly paid employees didn't produce, and now they have to get a lot done on the cheap. it's pretty simple, and pretty common.
tell them the hourly wage you want to make, tell them you would like a 3 month trial @ the hourly wage, and then if it works out, you would like to be salaried. after 3 months, if you prove yourself indispensable, you can renegotiate a higher salary. if they're not down with this, go somewhere else. arch firms are used to a large labor market at their mercy, and right now there is too much work and not enough skilled labor = your bargaining advantage.
no matter what blather is said about 'professionalism' and 'fairness' , you really do need to look out for yourself first, no one else will.

punky did hit the nail on the head with the 3 month trial....... i offered that to them in the beginning cause i knew what was going on..... i said 3-5 month hourly then salary after that.... i also mentioned contract.... they went straight to salary.... they gave an hourly with ot but it was low and i knew once i did the math, it still wasnt worth it..........

they know my capabilties and what i want....... i guess they would rather over work those in the office than hire a cat that can help them out in crunch time and make everyones life easier......

i have a few other projects in the mix anyways so it's not like i really need this gig......

b