Im currently a max user, but recently started at a firm that is in between software packages. We currently use sketchup now, but might be looking to get into some more sophisticated software. Im obviously only interested in 3d Modeling as it relates to Architecture, with maybe a little bit of animation.
I wanted to see what is the public opinion on the best (value) software. I know of the powerhouse companies (autodesk, maxon, newtek, etc.), but in your opinion what are the top 5 software packages out there for architecture?
Thanks
(also anyone know of anywhere to go for free software for students?)
SketchUp sucks, but I use it all the time. It reminds me of one of those 3D House programs you can get at Office Max for $5. I'm a big fan of 3Ds. Vis is okay as well. I have worked with Vue also, and that's not bad. If the firm is on a budget and doesn't have the needs for any high end photo-realisic graphics, stick with SketchUp, although everything tends to look a little chunky. I do all of my 3-D modeling in CAD then import to SU for rendering. If your firm is really on a buget, you can get by rendering right in CAD, although this is definately not presentation quality work. If you're budget is more liberal, 3Ds is the way to go, in my opinion.
if best means a program that lets you model almost anything that you can think of and that's geometrically possible for the best price, rhino would be my pick. Not for renderings or light research, but for modelling for sure.
Been using Revit (Building) for about a year now (does anyone else out there use it...?). By far the best value; autodesk product, so if your consultants don't use it, easy to import and translate into autocad. Rendering a bit cartoony, and the modeling seems to work best for generally planar forms (great if you are out there in the real world, dealing with real clients, and building mostly realistic buildings). The best thing about this product for architects is that while you are modeling you are building the drawing set as well, including schedules, and your information is "smart" (how many yards of concrete are in this building, for example). SketchUp is not a parametric sofware as far as I can tell. Yes, there are bugs and some of the commands are completly cryptic; however if you ask anyone who has used it (and actually produced a drawing set) if they would go back to their previous sofware, the answer is always "no way!"
I got a free copy of Revit from Autodesk, it works fine, but it is no where near the level of complexity in terms of solids modeling and rendering capabilities of a 3Ds or Rhino. SkethUp is fun and easy to use, and you can actually do some pretty cool things with it, but nothing in the photorealistic realm. Autodesk has a free trial version of most of their software on their website. SketchUp also has a trial period, and they both offer deep discounts for studnets.
Oh, I agree with you there. I can't tell you how sick I am of hearing "But that's not what that looked like in the picture," in reference to a VERY minor detail or the slightest change in color of a finished project, but that is what a lot of people are interested in these days. I tend to keep my renderings for presentations on the sketchy side, but occasionally photorealism is called for on a web site or in print media.
bryan, you are absolutely right. it's so high school, so last century, so god damned boring. sketch up is fine and can actually do some great things or i should say people that use can do some great things, just check out the boys over at form:uLA...great models...it's all in the user.
I have only ever modeled in AutoCAD and rendered with Max (now with VRay). Never seemed to need anything else, but they are what I started with.
You can get really nice, non-photorealistic renderings with the big software as well. A guy I went to school with is doing great “digital chipboard†models and “digital watercolor†models that look amazing. All with Max and Photoshop…
also, for those of you who "model" in ACAD, stop. Switch to Rhino, similar commands and everything, but unbelievably better navigation, just as good, if not, better accuracy, plus nurbs....
free software... go to hong kong, or find someone who has... torrents work well too! chances are someone you know has it and is willing to share. in fact, their isn't a large crackdown on piracy because firms have to buy what their employees use
BIM software like Revit and Archicad suffer under the idea that they can only do straightforward boxy buildings. That notion is what kept me from using any BIM software untill I attended Autodesk University and saw them build the STRata center and a building designed by Gaudi all within an hour. Since then, i was hooked on Revit and the who concept of BIM. And the more you learn the program the more complex geometry you can put out. And if it realy gets too complex, you can always import Rhino nurbs surfaces and Formz geometry and convert it into buildable components.
I tend to use an oldschool version of lightwave to get great white model renderings and then bring it over to photoshop to the final touchs. It takes some much less time to touchup and perfect something there then having to constantly re-render something.
I'm also with postal on the whoever is modeling in autocad stop nothion.
here's work flow that works great for me:
sketchup= schematic design and visualization (also great for diagraming)
cut the plans and section from sketchup and rework them to finals in cad
if there is a need for advanced modelling (not most typical projects) go into rhino as mentioned above.
then either render in max (mental ray or your preference) or for great lighting analysis etc break out the lightwave
Revit has a function coming down the pipe that will allow you to map components like walls onto the surface of any curvy form that you generate in rhino or 3d studio, etc.
These functions will basically allow you to translate schematic massing models into a revit parametric model.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned microstation... It might not stand out above the rest in any particular aspect of modelling, but it does everything well... it's the all around package: parametric functions, drafting, robust modelling, good enough rendering capability...
maxwell... not personally but I hang around here too much and hear the griping about how long it takes. IMO it is nearly unuseable in a production environment unless you have 1. an army of rendernodes or 2. no deadlines. The material editor is also rumored to be a little cumbersone.
...the results you get with it are, argueably, no better than what you can get with any of the other rendering engines on the market such as FinalRender, Vray, Mental Ray, etc...
for non-bim modeling I don't think there's a better tool out there than Form-Z.
maxwell is coming along, but the gripes about it are generally well deserved. it requires a different approach than alot of other renderers, and it's easier to pick up for certain types of people than others. it takes a very long time to render, but if you're good with it, the time spent setting things up can be a bit shorter.
at this point I think Vray is a better buy, but in a couple years when everyone's running 8 or 16 core workstations, it may be a different story - from what I've seen maxwell does a better job of scaling to multi (>4) core platforms than Vray.
http://www.indigorenderer.com/
... it's also free and (some say) comparable to Maxwell... actually more like the early M~W beta version that is lacking a slick GUI
I use Rhino to model, and have used Max to render. I think I might go to Vray for Rhino. Ive been really happy with the trial results I've gotten and it's very nice to have it IN Rhino. Plus, educational price is not bad, $250. I think it will save me a lot of time because I have a lot to do as far as getting my shitty portfolio to look good. I have to rerender everything and make some changes to the models. Max render is so easy to navigate, maybe just because I am familiar with it. Also, I love the modifiers in Max. So easy. But I find getting accurate architectural stuff much faster in Rhino, because it is more like CAD.
maya = most capable of modeling complex geometries, but imprecise. not meant for architects.
rhino = accuracy and simple interface and pretty good capabilities
max = good for rendering, materials, lighting. contains a lot of stuff i never use.
formz = interface designed for and by architects. a bit oversimplified.
i don't think there is a "best" modeling software and there never will be. some softwares are just better than others at certain tasks.
You could look at Modo, too, if you want to do too much research. It looks promising and is relatively cheap (we are assuming this will be bought, right? If this is the case, there si a huge difference between $3500 for Max, sans plugins, and $500 for Sketchup)
yeah i think it all depends in how complex ur modelling can get or not, but i think overall and standard things, and also best-known by practice is to model in rhino and render in MAX
Can anyone explain why architects all seem to think that Maya is the least precise 3d modeling software when it is actually twice as precise per byte as 3d or Rhino? According to Alias/Autodesk it's going to be integrated with Revit and ACad within the year.
they'd really be foolish to do that. 99% of the arch viz community uses Max and if Adesk started pushing Maya they'd lose tons of customers (everyone is already a little upset at the pricing structure). Cinema 4D will take over before Maya does (and it's starting to take a large chunk of Max's market, mostly do to a modular pricing structure).
Any program can be accurate with enough patience. I find Max and Maya to be insanely cumbersome for accuracy.
mespellrong - could you please post a link to that news? Thanks.
I actually don't think sketchup sucks at all. Actually, I have used a lot of the modeling programs and I think sketchup is by far the easiest to use. Maybe people say it sucks due to its rendering capabilites, which is true...you would need to throw the geometry into a renderer or another program like MAX that has a renderer in it. Also, sketchup is not a nurbs modeler so if you need those capabilities, the other programs will work with that.
I think a lot of people say sketchup sucks because it isn't accurate; however, I believe it is accurate, but you have to use it accurately to ensure this. Layers options allows great control of object organization, and one of the best tools is the perspective field of view tool allowing quick generation of really cool 2 point perspectives (LTL style). Then, a quick EPS export allows great rendering in illustrator and photoshop.
what i don't understand about people saying sketchup isn't accurate is that it uses the same god damn mathematical principles as other 3D software. I've had the same arguments with my tutor. It's just the rendering which isn't great but then it's just meant to be used to help visualize space. The sketchy lines can be turned off.
I wholeheartedly believe in SketchUp. As has been stated before, outside of photorealism, you can really get an amazing amount of stuff out of it for minmal investment (both money and time). I tend to judge software on how easily I can get an idea visualized in two or three dimensions. Basically, I tend to shun software that hampers how you can think about architecture because of limitations the software imposes based on depth of knowledge required (Maya) or interface (Form Z). SketchUp is a front-end tool and to judge it based on any other criteria is pointless. Criticisms questioning accuracy I would say are also ill-founded. It actually is considerably accurate. It is not meant to be a renderer - in fact it doesn't render. It does however, play incredibly well with others and is easily integrated into any other platform. You can pick it up in 20 minutes. This is incredibly empowering.
Outside of SketchUp, for more intensive NURBS surface modeling, I agree that Rhino trumps most for similar reasons that SketchUp is a great B-Rep modeler. Easy to pick up, fairly transparent, and accurate.
Use those 2 as a foundation and add a renderer you like and you'll find that that combination will get you virtually anything you can think of other than a set of CD's, which of course may or may not be the intent.
This work used SketchUp entirely as a base modeler (75%), and supplemented Rhino when neccessary (25%). Let the link load for a little, the flash file is large.
that is some great work Surry! next time i have an arguement with someone over sketchup i'll post a link to your work. I realy wish they made a version of Rhino for mac, since it is one of the better "complex" 3d apps out there, i just don't agree with some of the scripts that some people are using with it, well the cases where people use the scripts and base their work off that.
i whole heartedly agree w/ surry. spot on w/ sketchup. (very nice renderings btw)
i too use sketchup and rhino as my primary modelers. sketchup is great for quick studies and site analyses. just acquired maxwell and have been messing around with work flows of SketchUp>Maxwell; Rhino>Maxwell; and Sketchup>Rhino>Maxwell...
If you want to have a link to post in favor of sketchup, take a look at PushPullBar. It's all sketchup with some things rendered in Max (or other high end program). Great stuff there, including architecture (it's not just 3D).
I still think FormZ is the fastest, but for the cash and ease of use, Sketchup can't be beat.
If you want to have a link to post in favor of sketchup, take a look at PushPullBar. It's all sketchup with some things rendered in Max (or other high end program). Great stuff there, including architecture (it's not just 3D).
I still think FormZ is the fastest, but for the cash and ease of use, Sketchup can't be beat.
Best Modeling Programs
Im currently a max user, but recently started at a firm that is in between software packages. We currently use sketchup now, but might be looking to get into some more sophisticated software. Im obviously only interested in 3d Modeling as it relates to Architecture, with maybe a little bit of animation.
I wanted to see what is the public opinion on the best (value) software. I know of the powerhouse companies (autodesk, maxon, newtek, etc.), but in your opinion what are the top 5 software packages out there for architecture?
Thanks
(also anyone know of anywhere to go for free software for students?)
SketchUp sucks, but I use it all the time. It reminds me of one of those 3D House programs you can get at Office Max for $5. I'm a big fan of 3Ds. Vis is okay as well. I have worked with Vue also, and that's not bad. If the firm is on a budget and doesn't have the needs for any high end photo-realisic graphics, stick with SketchUp, although everything tends to look a little chunky. I do all of my 3-D modeling in CAD then import to SU for rendering. If your firm is really on a buget, you can get by rendering right in CAD, although this is definately not presentation quality work. If you're budget is more liberal, 3Ds is the way to go, in my opinion.
if best means a program that lets you model almost anything that you can think of and that's geometrically possible for the best price, rhino would be my pick. Not for renderings or light research, but for modelling for sure.
Been using Revit (Building) for about a year now (does anyone else out there use it...?). By far the best value; autodesk product, so if your consultants don't use it, easy to import and translate into autocad. Rendering a bit cartoony, and the modeling seems to work best for generally planar forms (great if you are out there in the real world, dealing with real clients, and building mostly realistic buildings). The best thing about this product for architects is that while you are modeling you are building the drawing set as well, including schedules, and your information is "smart" (how many yards of concrete are in this building, for example). SketchUp is not a parametric sofware as far as I can tell. Yes, there are bugs and some of the commands are completly cryptic; however if you ask anyone who has used it (and actually produced a drawing set) if they would go back to their previous sofware, the answer is always "no way!"
I got a free copy of Revit from Autodesk, it works fine, but it is no where near the level of complexity in terms of solids modeling and rendering capabilities of a 3Ds or Rhino. SkethUp is fun and easy to use, and you can actually do some pretty cool things with it, but nothing in the photorealistic realm. Autodesk has a free trial version of most of their software on their website. SketchUp also has a trial period, and they both offer deep discounts for studnets.
photorealism is highly overrated
Oh, I agree with you there. I can't tell you how sick I am of hearing "But that's not what that looked like in the picture," in reference to a VERY minor detail or the slightest change in color of a finished project, but that is what a lot of people are interested in these days. I tend to keep my renderings for presentations on the sketchy side, but occasionally photorealism is called for on a web site or in print media.
bryan, you are absolutely right. it's so high school, so last century, so god damned boring. sketch up is fine and can actually do some great things or i should say people that use can do some great things, just check out the boys over at form:uLA...great models...it's all in the user.
I have only ever modeled in AutoCAD and rendered with Max (now with VRay). Never seemed to need anything else, but they are what I started with.
You can get really nice, non-photorealistic renderings with the big software as well. A guy I went to school with is doing great “digital chipboard†models and “digital watercolor†models that look amazing. All with Max and Photoshop…
I am with French. If the question is really about modeling and only about modeling, Rhino, I feel, is the best all around modeler.
sketch up for concept massing and cheap jobs...
rhino to model...
max to render...
go forth and be enlightened...
also, for those of you who "model" in ACAD, stop. Switch to Rhino, similar commands and everything, but unbelievably better navigation, just as good, if not, better accuracy, plus nurbs....
free software... go to hong kong, or find someone who has... torrents work well too! chances are someone you know has it and is willing to share. in fact, their isn't a large crackdown on piracy because firms have to buy what their employees use
BIM software like Revit and Archicad suffer under the idea that they can only do straightforward boxy buildings. That notion is what kept me from using any BIM software untill I attended Autodesk University and saw them build the STRata center and a building designed by Gaudi all within an hour. Since then, i was hooked on Revit and the who concept of BIM. And the more you learn the program the more complex geometry you can put out. And if it realy gets too complex, you can always import Rhino nurbs surfaces and Formz geometry and convert it into buildable components.
I tend to use an oldschool version of lightwave to get great white model renderings and then bring it over to photoshop to the final touchs. It takes some much less time to touchup and perfect something there then having to constantly re-render something.
I'm also with postal on the whoever is modeling in autocad stop nothion.
here's work flow that works great for me:
sketchup= schematic design and visualization (also great for diagraming)
cut the plans and section from sketchup and rework them to finals in cad
if there is a need for advanced modelling (not most typical projects) go into rhino as mentioned above.
then either render in max (mental ray or your preference) or for great lighting analysis etc break out the lightwave
Revit has a function coming down the pipe that will allow you to map components like walls onto the surface of any curvy form that you generate in rhino or 3d studio, etc.
These functions will basically allow you to translate schematic massing models into a revit parametric model.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned microstation... It might not stand out above the rest in any particular aspect of modelling, but it does everything well... it's the all around package: parametric functions, drafting, robust modelling, good enough rendering capability...
I mean, I don't think microstation is the best, but its the complete package... You can do everything from one software (plus photoshop)...
has anyone ever used maxwell render?
maxwell... not personally but I hang around here too much and hear the griping about how long it takes. IMO it is nearly unuseable in a production environment unless you have 1. an army of rendernodes or 2. no deadlines. The material editor is also rumored to be a little cumbersone.
...the results you get with it are, argueably, no better than what you can get with any of the other rendering engines on the market such as FinalRender, Vray, Mental Ray, etc...
for non-bim modeling I don't think there's a better tool out there than Form-Z.
maxwell is coming along, but the gripes about it are generally well deserved. it requires a different approach than alot of other renderers, and it's easier to pick up for certain types of people than others. it takes a very long time to render, but if you're good with it, the time spent setting things up can be a bit shorter.
at this point I think Vray is a better buy, but in a couple years when everyone's running 8 or 16 core workstations, it may be a different story - from what I've seen maxwell does a better job of scaling to multi (>4) core platforms than Vray.
I need to start learning revit.
In my office I tried to do a project on Revit. Sort of a total immersion way of learning. About 3 weeks in I gave up. I still have nightmares.
"I need to start learning revit."... ditto here
What about Cinema4d? Anybody have anything good or bad to say about it. Ive kinda heard good and bad things about it, but have yet to use it.
Revit to model; Max to render..
anyone?
it's free if that matters.
dunno much about Blender as an Arch. modeler but this was made with it: http://orange.blender.org/
http://www.indigorenderer.com/
... it's also free and (some say) comparable to Maxwell... actually more like the early M~W beta version that is lacking a slick GUI
anyone use maya?
poor form-z...
I miss you little guy :(
I use Rhino to model, and have used Max to render. I think I might go to Vray for Rhino. Ive been really happy with the trial results I've gotten and it's very nice to have it IN Rhino. Plus, educational price is not bad, $250. I think it will save me a lot of time because I have a lot to do as far as getting my shitty portfolio to look good. I have to rerender everything and make some changes to the models. Max render is so easy to navigate, maybe just because I am familiar with it. Also, I love the modifiers in Max. So easy. But I find getting accurate architectural stuff much faster in Rhino, because it is more like CAD.
i've used all of these. here is my take:
maya = most capable of modeling complex geometries, but imprecise. not meant for architects.
rhino = accuracy and simple interface and pretty good capabilities
max = good for rendering, materials, lighting. contains a lot of stuff i never use.
formz = interface designed for and by architects. a bit oversimplified.
i don't think there is a "best" modeling software and there never will be. some softwares are just better than others at certain tasks.
model in autocad......render it in photoshop...fastes and cool rendering.
3d max for more realistic shots.
rendering in Photoshop? Would love to see that!
You could look at Modo, too, if you want to do too much research. It looks promising and is relatively cheap (we are assuming this will be bought, right? If this is the case, there si a huge difference between $3500 for Max, sans plugins, and $500 for Sketchup)
I do a lot of "rendering" in photoshop. I can show you a sample, how do i insert a picture here?
Note the text at the bottom
yeah i think it all depends in how complex ur modelling can get or not, but i think overall and standard things, and also best-known by practice is to model in rhino and render in MAX
and yeah, in the most mediatic offices, trust me at least a 60% of a render is done in photoshop....
cant figure how to post an image, i konw the code is below, but if my image is on my c drive, how do i enter the code?
go to photobucket.com > create account > upload image > browse for image on C > submit > copy tagged Img below image > paste into text as desired
Can anyone explain why architects all seem to think that Maya is the least precise 3d modeling software when it is actually twice as precise per byte as 3d or Rhino? According to Alias/Autodesk it's going to be integrated with Revit and ACad within the year.
it's the way the interface is presented.
if they can really integrate maya's node structure with revit, that might be pretty damn spiffy.
they'd really be foolish to do that. 99% of the arch viz community uses Max and if Adesk started pushing Maya they'd lose tons of customers (everyone is already a little upset at the pricing structure). Cinema 4D will take over before Maya does (and it's starting to take a large chunk of Max's market, mostly do to a modular pricing structure).
Any program can be accurate with enough patience. I find Max and Maya to be insanely cumbersome for accuracy.
mespellrong - could you please post a link to that news? Thanks.
I actually don't think sketchup sucks at all. Actually, I have used a lot of the modeling programs and I think sketchup is by far the easiest to use. Maybe people say it sucks due to its rendering capabilites, which is true...you would need to throw the geometry into a renderer or another program like MAX that has a renderer in it. Also, sketchup is not a nurbs modeler so if you need those capabilities, the other programs will work with that.
I think a lot of people say sketchup sucks because it isn't accurate; however, I believe it is accurate, but you have to use it accurately to ensure this. Layers options allows great control of object organization, and one of the best tools is the perspective field of view tool allowing quick generation of really cool 2 point perspectives (LTL style). Then, a quick EPS export allows great rendering in illustrator and photoshop.
what i don't understand about people saying sketchup isn't accurate is that it uses the same god damn mathematical principles as other 3D software. I've had the same arguments with my tutor. It's just the rendering which isn't great but then it's just meant to be used to help visualize space. The sketchy lines can be turned off.
Has anyone ever done any work with Vue?
I wholeheartedly believe in SketchUp. As has been stated before, outside of photorealism, you can really get an amazing amount of stuff out of it for minmal investment (both money and time). I tend to judge software on how easily I can get an idea visualized in two or three dimensions. Basically, I tend to shun software that hampers how you can think about architecture because of limitations the software imposes based on depth of knowledge required (Maya) or interface (Form Z). SketchUp is a front-end tool and to judge it based on any other criteria is pointless. Criticisms questioning accuracy I would say are also ill-founded. It actually is considerably accurate. It is not meant to be a renderer - in fact it doesn't render. It does however, play incredibly well with others and is easily integrated into any other platform. You can pick it up in 20 minutes. This is incredibly empowering.
Outside of SketchUp, for more intensive NURBS surface modeling, I agree that Rhino trumps most for similar reasons that SketchUp is a great B-Rep modeler. Easy to pick up, fairly transparent, and accurate.
Use those 2 as a foundation and add a renderer you like and you'll find that that combination will get you virtually anything you can think of other than a set of CD's, which of course may or may not be the intent.
This work used SketchUp entirely as a base modeler (75%), and supplemented Rhino when neccessary (25%). Let the link load for a little, the flash file is large.
http://homepage.mac.com/surry
cant figure out how to post a picture, but below is a link to a photoshop rendering. modeling done in autocad.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n3/arbenphotobucket/photoshop-render.jpg
that is some great work Surry! next time i have an arguement with someone over sketchup i'll post a link to your work. I realy wish they made a version of Rhino for mac, since it is one of the better "complex" 3d apps out there, i just don't agree with some of the scripts that some people are using with it, well the cases where people use the scripts and base their work off that.
i whole heartedly agree w/ surry. spot on w/ sketchup. (very nice renderings btw)
i too use sketchup and rhino as my primary modelers. sketchup is great for quick studies and site analyses. just acquired maxwell and have been messing around with work flows of SketchUp>Maxwell; Rhino>Maxwell; and Sketchup>Rhino>Maxwell...
If you want to have a link to post in favor of sketchup, take a look at PushPullBar. It's all sketchup with some things rendered in Max (or other high end program). Great stuff there, including architecture (it's not just 3D).
I still think FormZ is the fastest, but for the cash and ease of use, Sketchup can't be beat.
Nice work Surry, thanks for sharing.
If you want to have a link to post in favor of sketchup, take a look at PushPullBar. It's all sketchup with some things rendered in Max (or other high end program). Great stuff there, including architecture (it's not just 3D).
I still think FormZ is the fastest, but for the cash and ease of use, Sketchup can't be beat.
Nice work Surry, thanks for sharing.
My favorite.
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