I have been dating a girl since Oct, she lived in NYC and I recently moved up here after graduation to be with her and find a job. We are currently on the fritz and I have been doing a lot of thinking about why things when wrong.
She's in fashion, which I feel is a very politicial and superficial industry, much more so than architecture can be/is. Naturally, being a recent grad I have problems with this superficiality and potential lack of meaning and have begun to wonder whether or not it is appropriate to separate my critical, relentless, sometimes cynical view of the world that has been injected into me via my education. I feel that my pursuit of perfection has caused problems in my relationships with those outside of architecture who don't understand a lot of what I am doing, especially my girlfriend. I have found out that you can't always talk like a pretentious, arrogant know-it-all to your girlfriend like you can your studio buddies. My question is whether or not it is possible to fence this questioning mentality in around my architectural pursuits and not allow it to enter into my relationships. After all, in a relationship you have to take the good and the bad, and compromise to make it last, something that I have not had to do [as of yet, I know it will probably change when I work more] as of yet.
Wait wait wait...you talk to your girlfriend like you talk to your studio buddies? I'm not sure this has anything to do with your views on fashion and superficiality.
in regards to "I feel that my pursuit of perfection has caused problems in my relationships with those outside of architecture who don't understand a lot of what I am doing"
architecture fits into society, not the other way around.
I think she's helping to put it all in perspective for you - your studio BS means nothing to the real world and has a big fat 0 impact on anyone, beyond yourself.
Imho, fashion, in general, has a much larger impact on society than architecture does (with the exception of maybe one building every few years). Her career, it could be argued, has more validity than yours will (assume you are average to talented and not rich).
You really need to get your head out of the clouds. We are taught to think that the BS in studio actually matters and that good architecture won't happen without it. That's total BS.
I could even go so far as to argue that the over-intellectualized theorectical nonsense is a way of over compensating for a profession that pays nothing for talent. The fasion world pays HUGE dividends for talent. Imho, that says alot about which profession is true to itself. At least fashion is honest and not pretending to be something it is not.
Suck it up, toss that Delueze out the window and keep your gf. She'll be more beneficial to you in many ways for a long time.
I guess that's what i've been dealing with, I know that my studio was not reality and was a very isolated event. I guess I was just looking to see if anyone else has had problems trying to adjust back into life in the real world after graduation. I know that I am having difficulties, such as I have stated, and feel that the elitism that was taught to me is really starting to kick my ass right now.
well, crits aren't supposed to model real life right? they're designed to make you better problem solvers and designers. of course a lot of the problems faced in the real world may not apply to those in critiques but I think in the long run, they're essential for an architect. if you don't know what you're designing, how are you helping the client???
sloring - fyi, grad school killed a long term relatioship I had going, but not for those reasons. For me, it was priorities that I set that, looking back, should have been more balanced.
School only lasts so long, there's the rest of your life with or without architecture that should be at least as important.
sloring, it's good that you are questioning how your architectural institutionalization is affecting your life outside the cult. that is the first step to rejecting the cult. and by "cult" i don't mean the practice or the profession of architecture -- but rather the "discipline" of architecture. the mindset. the worldview. i'll get to the mindset in a moment.
if you and your GF are on the rocks there could be any number of different reasons, and any combination of them. maybe she's tired of you leaving your socks on the floor, or maybe you really didn't want to go out to brunch with her ex who she swears is "just a friend now." i dunno.
but you know, your professions may have something to do with this. you are both in jobs with high stress, long hours, high profiles, and (yeah, it's true) low pay at the start of one's career. ostensibly you are both creative, opinionated, and looking to do and be something new on an almost daily basis.
BUT the priorities are different, and architects LIVE architecture and fashion designers LIVE fashion.
if there is REALLY something there (the REAL question) then the answer to your question is YES. y'all can BOTH learn to leave your work at work, or at least not let it interfere with your relationships.
and you are smart, you mentioned that you know EXACTLY what is required: compromise.
the architectural "mindset" is that because we both create something essential AND that we create art, that our art is essential, and that there is an objectivity to our subjective opinions. and that what conflicts with those opinions is WRONG.
thus, that barcelona chair replica you got for $500 absolutely CANNOT be sullied by her pink-fringed pillow. thus, there is absolutely ONLY ONE RIGHT WAY to make the bed. you get the idea.
fashion is pluralistic, eclectic, and readily acknowledges its own mutability and temporality. yet it managed to keep us from going around naked (or wearing gaucho pants, except for early this year). my advice: if y'all are really good together otherwise, you learn to like her profession and she learns to like yours.
and if your specific relationship is doomed then take these lessons and move on to the next one.
or date other architects...at least you won't be complaining that she never has time to go out on dates.
if you just recently moved to NYC, give it some time and you'll slowly be desensitized to the superficiality...same goes for your view that architecture is less political and superficial than other professions. Park that high horse in Thompkins Sq park and go have a beer.
You are the man of the house, take charge! Tell that woman she better start toeing the line and that means now. For some people taking charge in their own house is not easy. It is not your fault. You were never taught by your father. But things can change. Stand up and have a backbone, Man!!!!!!!
ochona - thanks a lot for your input, you really nailed what I have been struggling with. I tell her that, 'less is more,' and she retorts with, 'more is more,' and because of this I have been struggling to see what our future holds, as silly as it sounds. I feel [and she does] that we really have something special and it is not something that either of us want to lose. It has just been hard because we are both so passionate about what we do, and I know that I, in particular, am a very stubborn person and do not want to yield to many, more temporal ideas. Obviously, I need to work on this because I really want to try and work things out with her, as I could really see myself spending the rest of my life with this woman. We are both very careeer oriented [I just got a job offer at a firm I was excited about!], but I think that we can make it work without sacrificing our relationship.
i am married to an art historian / curator and it's funny because while we share a lot of philosophies, we also have our differences. makes for some interesting and stimulating debates.
our first-ever conversation was about the guggenheim in bilbao...she hated it, i loved it...and we talked about why.
one of her points was that...it's almost impossible to curate inside the museum, you cannot craft an exhibition or adequately put the museumgoer in a proper frame of mind to experience the art because the museumgoer is so confronted with the form of the museum that you can never escape it and concentrate.
she had and has a point. and my point is, if the two of you really like each other, if it's all worth it, then you will learn from each other and it will inform both of your philosophies. but.
you HAVE to not only SAY that you see her point...you have to SEE HER POINT. you two will both have to empathize with each other first-off or else you won't stay together. learn to yield to more temporal ideas. (this is also good advice for the "real world" of architecture)
i hope it works. i think great relationships -- interesting relationships -- make for great and interesting artists and architects. i know that my practice, such as it is, has benefitted from me having this day-to-day relationship with another allied but not identical artistic force. hopefully you will too.
Re: less is more vs. more is more: the heart of this conflict is usually that less stuff = more space, so the one saying 'less is more' values space over stuff, and the one saying 'more is more' values stuff over space. This can be tough. Unfortunately, stuff has a natural tendency to win over space. It's got to be some law of physics, because it always happens.
This is most damn intresting Architectural Psycological bull crap I have ever read....must be all those architecture psycology courses one takes in school. The ones I slept thru.....
Sloring - you are on the right track. Using the same value systems about architecture on other things in our lives in the first step to really understanding and reading the environment around us.
However...
fashion is a wee bit more important than that...despite how superficial their personalities may be
and
if you over think it - its pointless to actually be in the relationship. I'm not including the sex of course.
but don't listen to me - I've had to find other ways to deaded that aspect of me - copious amounts of alcohol and tennis
oh, that sounded bad...was trying to be coy and avoid answering the question without any details (because we don't discuss our sex lives outside the house) but i just sounded apathetic
physical compatibility is important, unfortunately if you are of our religious conviction it's hard to find that out before you get married
Not that I'm a huge fan of Frank Gehry's architecture, but I do find he offers many down-to-earth pearls of wisdom. One of them I read paraphrased is that architecture students should read less architectural theory and more novels, because then they'd learn about men and women.
Sloring, if you're worried that you can't relate to non-architects, I would ask if you've cultivated other interests. Reading, volunteer work, a geeky hobby, music, sports, politics...? School tends to demand so much time and energy from us to be devoted to it and architecture, that I find it can be hard to maintain other interests - interests which would develop your personality more fully and have you interact with people outside of this one little field. This could help open you up to non-architectural values.
Jul 18, 06 7:20 pm ·
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Separation of Architecture and Relationships
Just a little backgound info:
I have been dating a girl since Oct, she lived in NYC and I recently moved up here after graduation to be with her and find a job. We are currently on the fritz and I have been doing a lot of thinking about why things when wrong.
She's in fashion, which I feel is a very politicial and superficial industry, much more so than architecture can be/is. Naturally, being a recent grad I have problems with this superficiality and potential lack of meaning and have begun to wonder whether or not it is appropriate to separate my critical, relentless, sometimes cynical view of the world that has been injected into me via my education. I feel that my pursuit of perfection has caused problems in my relationships with those outside of architecture who don't understand a lot of what I am doing, especially my girlfriend. I have found out that you can't always talk like a pretentious, arrogant know-it-all to your girlfriend like you can your studio buddies. My question is whether or not it is possible to fence this questioning mentality in around my architectural pursuits and not allow it to enter into my relationships. After all, in a relationship you have to take the good and the bad, and compromise to make it last, something that I have not had to do [as of yet, I know it will probably change when I work more] as of yet.
boo hoo
Wait wait wait...you talk to your girlfriend like you talk to your studio buddies? I'm not sure this has anything to do with your views on fashion and superficiality.
fashion is more political?
in regards to "I feel that my pursuit of perfection has caused problems in my relationships with those outside of architecture who don't understand a lot of what I am doing"
architecture fits into society, not the other way around.
my wife is an ex-english major, and is now in culinary school. there are two things I don't do unless I am looking for trouble:
1. i don't criticise her cooking, she has professors and colleagues for that (i also don't cook, because of my many culinary flaws)
2. i don't ask her to review anything I have written (unless I am prepared to be ripped apart)
oh, one more thing, if it doesn't work, let it go...
and stop being so ultimately cynical, go have some fun.
I think she's helping to put it all in perspective for you - your studio BS means nothing to the real world and has a big fat 0 impact on anyone, beyond yourself.
Imho, fashion, in general, has a much larger impact on society than architecture does (with the exception of maybe one building every few years). Her career, it could be argued, has more validity than yours will (assume you are average to talented and not rich).
You really need to get your head out of the clouds. We are taught to think that the BS in studio actually matters and that good architecture won't happen without it. That's total BS.
I could even go so far as to argue that the over-intellectualized theorectical nonsense is a way of over compensating for a profession that pays nothing for talent. The fasion world pays HUGE dividends for talent. Imho, that says alot about which profession is true to itself. At least fashion is honest and not pretending to be something it is not.
Suck it up, toss that Delueze out the window and keep your gf. She'll be more beneficial to you in many ways for a long time.
I guess that's what i've been dealing with, I know that my studio was not reality and was a very isolated event. I guess I was just looking to see if anyone else has had problems trying to adjust back into life in the real world after graduation. I know that I am having difficulties, such as I have stated, and feel that the elitism that was taught to me is really starting to kick my ass right now.
well, crits aren't supposed to model real life right? they're designed to make you better problem solvers and designers. of course a lot of the problems faced in the real world may not apply to those in critiques but I think in the long run, they're essential for an architect. if you don't know what you're designing, how are you helping the client???
sloring - fyi, grad school killed a long term relatioship I had going, but not for those reasons. For me, it was priorities that I set that, looking back, should have been more balanced.
School only lasts so long, there's the rest of your life with or without architecture that should be at least as important.
sloring, it's good that you are questioning how your architectural institutionalization is affecting your life outside the cult. that is the first step to rejecting the cult. and by "cult" i don't mean the practice or the profession of architecture -- but rather the "discipline" of architecture. the mindset. the worldview. i'll get to the mindset in a moment.
if you and your GF are on the rocks there could be any number of different reasons, and any combination of them. maybe she's tired of you leaving your socks on the floor, or maybe you really didn't want to go out to brunch with her ex who she swears is "just a friend now." i dunno.
but you know, your professions may have something to do with this. you are both in jobs with high stress, long hours, high profiles, and (yeah, it's true) low pay at the start of one's career. ostensibly you are both creative, opinionated, and looking to do and be something new on an almost daily basis.
BUT the priorities are different, and architects LIVE architecture and fashion designers LIVE fashion.
if there is REALLY something there (the REAL question) then the answer to your question is YES. y'all can BOTH learn to leave your work at work, or at least not let it interfere with your relationships.
and you are smart, you mentioned that you know EXACTLY what is required: compromise.
the architectural "mindset" is that because we both create something essential AND that we create art, that our art is essential, and that there is an objectivity to our subjective opinions. and that what conflicts with those opinions is WRONG.
thus, that barcelona chair replica you got for $500 absolutely CANNOT be sullied by her pink-fringed pillow. thus, there is absolutely ONLY ONE RIGHT WAY to make the bed. you get the idea.
fashion is pluralistic, eclectic, and readily acknowledges its own mutability and temporality. yet it managed to keep us from going around naked (or wearing gaucho pants, except for early this year). my advice: if y'all are really good together otherwise, you learn to like her profession and she learns to like yours.
and if your specific relationship is doomed then take these lessons and move on to the next one.
or date other architects...at least you won't be complaining that she never has time to go out on dates.
if you just recently moved to NYC, give it some time and you'll slowly be desensitized to the superficiality...same goes for your view that architecture is less political and superficial than other professions. Park that high horse in Thompkins Sq park and go have a beer.
better yet, if she's wondering why you're never home...go have a beer with HER
You are the man of the house, take charge! Tell that woman she better start toeing the line and that means now. For some people taking charge in their own house is not easy. It is not your fault. You were never taught by your father. But things can change. Stand up and have a backbone, Man!!!!!!!
ochona - thanks a lot for your input, you really nailed what I have been struggling with. I tell her that, 'less is more,' and she retorts with, 'more is more,' and because of this I have been struggling to see what our future holds, as silly as it sounds. I feel [and she does] that we really have something special and it is not something that either of us want to lose. It has just been hard because we are both so passionate about what we do, and I know that I, in particular, am a very stubborn person and do not want to yield to many, more temporal ideas. Obviously, I need to work on this because I really want to try and work things out with her, as I could really see myself spending the rest of my life with this woman. We are both very careeer oriented [I just got a job offer at a firm I was excited about!], but I think that we can make it work without sacrificing our relationship.
architecture's my bitch and i don't need no other woman to satisfy me. she's demanding as hell but for some reason i just can't leave.
i am married to an art historian / curator and it's funny because while we share a lot of philosophies, we also have our differences. makes for some interesting and stimulating debates.
our first-ever conversation was about the guggenheim in bilbao...she hated it, i loved it...and we talked about why.
one of her points was that...it's almost impossible to curate inside the museum, you cannot craft an exhibition or adequately put the museumgoer in a proper frame of mind to experience the art because the museumgoer is so confronted with the form of the museum that you can never escape it and concentrate.
she had and has a point. and my point is, if the two of you really like each other, if it's all worth it, then you will learn from each other and it will inform both of your philosophies. but.
you HAVE to not only SAY that you see her point...you have to SEE HER POINT. you two will both have to empathize with each other first-off or else you won't stay together. learn to yield to more temporal ideas. (this is also good advice for the "real world" of architecture)
i hope it works. i think great relationships -- interesting relationships -- make for great and interesting artists and architects. i know that my practice, such as it is, has benefitted from me having this day-to-day relationship with another allied but not identical artistic force. hopefully you will too.
by the way, more is less.
Re: less is more vs. more is more: the heart of this conflict is usually that less stuff = more space, so the one saying 'less is more' values space over stuff, and the one saying 'more is more' values stuff over space. This can be tough. Unfortunately, stuff has a natural tendency to win over space. It's got to be some law of physics, because it always happens.
This is most damn intresting Architectural Psycological bull crap I have ever read....must be all those architecture psycology courses one takes in school. The ones I slept thru.....
stop using architecture as an excuse
Sloring - you are on the right track. Using the same value systems about architecture on other things in our lives in the first step to really understanding and reading the environment around us.
However...
fashion is a wee bit more important than that...despite how superficial their personalities may be
and
if you over think it - its pointless to actually be in the relationship. I'm not including the sex of course.
but don't listen to me - I've had to find other ways to deaded that aspect of me - copious amounts of alcohol and tennis
boring. is the sex with the art historian any good?
no complaints
oh, that sounded bad...was trying to be coy and avoid answering the question without any details (because we don't discuss our sex lives outside the house) but i just sounded apathetic
physical compatibility is important, unfortunately if you are of our religious conviction it's hard to find that out before you get married
Not that I'm a huge fan of Frank Gehry's architecture, but I do find he offers many down-to-earth pearls of wisdom. One of them I read paraphrased is that architecture students should read less architectural theory and more novels, because then they'd learn about men and women.
Sloring, if you're worried that you can't relate to non-architects, I would ask if you've cultivated other interests. Reading, volunteer work, a geeky hobby, music, sports, politics...? School tends to demand so much time and energy from us to be devoted to it and architecture, that I find it can be hard to maintain other interests - interests which would develop your personality more fully and have you interact with people outside of this one little field. This could help open you up to non-architectural values.
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