Sure they do, they just don't provide them for easy public consumption. You can extract it easily enough from the census data if you know how. But here's a quick breakdown for anyone who can't figure how to lookup the department of labor and calculate SES.
The average Columbia grad will earn 90% of the median income for her profession over the course of her working life, plus or minus 6 percent. That suggests that the average Columbia grad almost certainly makes $99,800 in an average year (the top ten percent according to the OOH). So the $600 a month to pay off that consolidated loan is only slightly less than the lease payment on the BMW convertible they drive down to their summer house.
aesculanus, I feel for you. Even if your starting salary is, say 50K, and you decide to pay $1000 towards your loan per month, it is still 120 months. Bad times.
Where did you get the 90%? Also, I did check out the OOH website earlier. But different sites lend different stats. According to Princeton Review, architects can expect 80k 10-15 years out. Decent enough, but what those first 3 years interning and preparing for the ARE? under $30k. That is depressing.
I'm bringing this up because, well, my wife is breaking my balls about going to columbia, and I'm having a really hard time convincing her.
sameold: don't forget interest and insurance. over 10 years that 120k loan bloats to 150k, and taxes cut your 50k income down to around 33k.
I graduated this spring, from a non-ivy league school and while I'm going on to grad school I know many friends from undergrad that are making 37-40k straight out of school with little to no prior experience. I was offered around the same, so I think that the "making under 30k while you study to take the ARE as an intern" may be a little extreme. Granted 40k isn't much better but its enough to get by on for a few years.
mespellrong - why are you comparing the 'average Columbia grad'? Of course it'll be high. Most Ivy's produce high paying business professionals. Architects, however, make the same regardless of where you go or came from. Design is the only thing that will separate you, but since you won't be designing right off the bat, you are as valuable as any chump architect grad.
I thank GOD that I turned down Columbia's offer. GOD knows I owe enough just going to UCLA!!
I do feel sorry for those that go expecting to get more out of it with no real knowledge of how things are a pretty level playing field once you graduate. I envy those that can really afford it.
Oh, and let's not forget the cost of living in Manhattan!!
It's a good question you ask trace. The fact of the matter is that whatever profession you get into, the single most important factor in your lifetime earning power is where you went to school. So anyone who has spent some time analyzing datasets of a cohort to find the high earners (say, for a college development office) finds out fairly quickly that the graduates of any college will fall into a pattern of about eight to twelve percentage points of each other relative to the profession they practice.
For example, it might be that case that an alum of Columbia living in NYC who has been doing software development for four years will earn in the 84th percentile of incomes for someone who does software development inn NYC, and another would earn in the 96th percentile and so on. The point is that two standard deviations will fit into plus or minus six percent of midpoint parker for their wage category – regardless of whether it is software developers, CEOs, or fry cooks.
As for the guys who make the big bucks, well, they invariably fall into that one half of one percent who own seventy percent of the wealth in the nation. Statistically speaking, they are insignificant aberrations, so anyone who wants meaningful results throws them out of their analyses.
Think for example of Peter Lewis, who paid Gehry billions just to design his house. If you added his income to the average for the small liberal arts college he graduated from, then you would bump up the median salary by, say, one million per student in the same cohort. It would distort any subsequent analysis.
By the way, some people will use this information as a way to negotiate a higher salary.
Notice, I'm saying one's LIFETIME earning power. It is probably the case that at the moment starting salaries for interns are 96 percent in the range of 33 to 48k, and the average Columbia grad is earning 46,500. The point is that the average amount earned per year adjusted into current dollars is in the neighborhood of 100k, so presumably she is getting an annual raise some 2,600 more than inflation, and after forty years is making about $153,500 a year. Of course, it's probably not linear, so it might take her twenty years to break 100k, and only ten to hit the 200k equivalent.
So unless you are already wealthy, you will consolidate your loans, and pay them off over 20 years at $600 a month – not too much money if you are earning 4k a month. Of course, that 600 a month is more than the difference in what you would earn if you had gone to a state school, but it will make you richer before you retire.
The 90% figure comes because when I was looking at this problem my project partner was a Columbia grad. My first alma mater only got 79%, and my second 92%. Our PI, a Harvard Alum, trumpet us both at 96%.
I'm really sorry aesculanus that your wife is busting your balls. You might point out that if you had done it before you got married that it would be 60% likelier that you would drop out, and then you still would have part of the debt, no chance at the income, and she'd still have to help you pay it off.
i'm paying 50k for 2 years at cranbrook for a m.a. in industrial design....
could have went for a m.a.arch but in reality, i'm trying to be a bit more diverse with my design work..... it's bad enough when i can't even get a cad monkey job in an office...... i just turned 30 and have experience in the office/construction/models/design/detailing interior and i still can't find shyt....
i hope all the grad students that come out with a b.a. and a m.a. in arch realize that experience tends to have more weight than a degree....
but then again, to each his own...... but then again i have some experience in a bit of everything and still can't find anything.....
maybe it's time to switch fields........ mailmen start out at 22 bucks an hour.......
i'm starting at columbia in the fall as well, and i'm having the same dilemma. turns out after factoring in tuition, estimated living expenses/supplies, scholarships, UCLA would only be about 7K cheaper than columbia for me after the whole 3 years. UCLA does not like to give out much money in scholarships, if they offer anything at all. and then i had this offer at another (decent, but less desirable in my opinion) state school for a full ride + cash. so now i'm stuck having to justify the difference in cost between columbia and the free state school.
i mentioned this concern of mine to a student who is currently attending columbia, who told me that the school offers a lot of opportunities to make money while you're there, in addition to perhaps increasing scholarship money during your second year if you can prove that you're broke enough. he said that the school doesn't necessarily admit people who can afford it, so they like helping students pay for school, who otherwise cannot affort to.
i REALLY hope it's worth it. former professors of mine keep reassuring me that it will.
i graduated from columbia in may and got a job at a great firm within two weeks of graduation earning $50k/year (+ health benefits, vacation, etc.) with only a couple of summer internships as experience (ie, no experience with construction documents at all other than building systems class). would i say that going to columbia allowed me to swing this? absolutely. from studio to building systems to software courses to professional practice to history, columbia's curriculum is excellent and the faculty second-to-none. i really wonder whether my portfolio would be anywhere near the quality it is if i had gone to another school. and, having gone to another relatively good and completely different architecture school for undergrad (wash u), i feel pretty comfortable in saying that columbia really does have something special going on.
now, how any of this factors into justifying the cost factor is obviously for each individual to decide for himself, but, personally, i feel that the costs were completely justified.
Qualifying the price factor
Columbia costs over 120K over 3 years.
The average starting for archs in NYC now is low 40s.
How do you rationalize it?
I see this post is left unanswered. Interestingly, Columbia's faculty also has no records on starting salaries for its graduates.
This is not reassuring....
Sure they do, they just don't provide them for easy public consumption. You can extract it easily enough from the census data if you know how. But here's a quick breakdown for anyone who can't figure how to lookup the department of labor and calculate SES.
The average Columbia grad will earn 90% of the median income for her profession over the course of her working life, plus or minus 6 percent. That suggests that the average Columbia grad almost certainly makes $99,800 in an average year (the top ten percent according to the OOH). So the $600 a month to pay off that consolidated loan is only slightly less than the lease payment on the BMW convertible they drive down to their summer house.
I like statistics.
aesculanus, I feel for you. Even if your starting salary is, say 50K, and you decide to pay $1000 towards your loan per month, it is still 120 months. Bad times.
Where did you get the 90%? Also, I did check out the OOH website earlier. But different sites lend different stats. According to Princeton Review, architects can expect 80k 10-15 years out. Decent enough, but what those first 3 years interning and preparing for the ARE? under $30k. That is depressing.
I'm bringing this up because, well, my wife is breaking my balls about going to columbia, and I'm having a really hard time convincing her.
sameold: don't forget interest and insurance. over 10 years that 120k loan bloats to 150k, and taxes cut your 50k income down to around 33k.
*puts pistol in mouth*
if u r graduating and have no experience you aint gonna make 50 grand. soory...
I graduated this spring, from a non-ivy league school and while I'm going on to grad school I know many friends from undergrad that are making 37-40k straight out of school with little to no prior experience. I was offered around the same, so I think that the "making under 30k while you study to take the ARE as an intern" may be a little extreme. Granted 40k isn't much better but its enough to get by on for a few years.
mespellrong - why are you comparing the 'average Columbia grad'? Of course it'll be high. Most Ivy's produce high paying business professionals. Architects, however, make the same regardless of where you go or came from. Design is the only thing that will separate you, but since you won't be designing right off the bat, you are as valuable as any chump architect grad.
I thank GOD that I turned down Columbia's offer. GOD knows I owe enough just going to UCLA!!
I do feel sorry for those that go expecting to get more out of it with no real knowledge of how things are a pretty level playing field once you graduate. I envy those that can really afford it.
Oh, and let's not forget the cost of living in Manhattan!!
It's a good question you ask trace. The fact of the matter is that whatever profession you get into, the single most important factor in your lifetime earning power is where you went to school. So anyone who has spent some time analyzing datasets of a cohort to find the high earners (say, for a college development office) finds out fairly quickly that the graduates of any college will fall into a pattern of about eight to twelve percentage points of each other relative to the profession they practice.
For example, it might be that case that an alum of Columbia living in NYC who has been doing software development for four years will earn in the 84th percentile of incomes for someone who does software development inn NYC, and another would earn in the 96th percentile and so on. The point is that two standard deviations will fit into plus or minus six percent of midpoint parker for their wage category – regardless of whether it is software developers, CEOs, or fry cooks.
As for the guys who make the big bucks, well, they invariably fall into that one half of one percent who own seventy percent of the wealth in the nation. Statistically speaking, they are insignificant aberrations, so anyone who wants meaningful results throws them out of their analyses.
Think for example of Peter Lewis, who paid Gehry billions just to design his house. If you added his income to the average for the small liberal arts college he graduated from, then you would bump up the median salary by, say, one million per student in the same cohort. It would distort any subsequent analysis.
By the way, some people will use this information as a way to negotiate a higher salary.
Notice, I'm saying one's LIFETIME earning power. It is probably the case that at the moment starting salaries for interns are 96 percent in the range of 33 to 48k, and the average Columbia grad is earning 46,500. The point is that the average amount earned per year adjusted into current dollars is in the neighborhood of 100k, so presumably she is getting an annual raise some 2,600 more than inflation, and after forty years is making about $153,500 a year. Of course, it's probably not linear, so it might take her twenty years to break 100k, and only ten to hit the 200k equivalent.
So unless you are already wealthy, you will consolidate your loans, and pay them off over 20 years at $600 a month – not too much money if you are earning 4k a month. Of course, that 600 a month is more than the difference in what you would earn if you had gone to a state school, but it will make you richer before you retire.
The 90% figure comes because when I was looking at this problem my project partner was a Columbia grad. My first alma mater only got 79%, and my second 92%. Our PI, a Harvard Alum, trumpet us both at 96%.
I'm really sorry aesculanus that your wife is busting your balls. You might point out that if you had done it before you got married that it would be 60% likelier that you would drop out, and then you still would have part of the debt, no chance at the income, and she'd still have to help you pay it off.
Sorry for being long-winded.
i'm paying 50k for 2 years at cranbrook for a m.a. in industrial design....
could have went for a m.a.arch but in reality, i'm trying to be a bit more diverse with my design work..... it's bad enough when i can't even get a cad monkey job in an office...... i just turned 30 and have experience in the office/construction/models/design/detailing interior and i still can't find shyt....
i hope all the grad students that come out with a b.a. and a m.a. in arch realize that experience tends to have more weight than a degree....
but then again, to each his own...... but then again i have some experience in a bit of everything and still can't find anything.....
maybe it's time to switch fields........ mailmen start out at 22 bucks an hour.......
i'm starting at columbia in the fall as well, and i'm having the same dilemma. turns out after factoring in tuition, estimated living expenses/supplies, scholarships, UCLA would only be about 7K cheaper than columbia for me after the whole 3 years. UCLA does not like to give out much money in scholarships, if they offer anything at all. and then i had this offer at another (decent, but less desirable in my opinion) state school for a full ride + cash. so now i'm stuck having to justify the difference in cost between columbia and the free state school.
i mentioned this concern of mine to a student who is currently attending columbia, who told me that the school offers a lot of opportunities to make money while you're there, in addition to perhaps increasing scholarship money during your second year if you can prove that you're broke enough. he said that the school doesn't necessarily admit people who can afford it, so they like helping students pay for school, who otherwise cannot affort to.
i REALLY hope it's worth it. former professors of mine keep reassuring me that it will.
i graduated from columbia in may and got a job at a great firm within two weeks of graduation earning $50k/year (+ health benefits, vacation, etc.) with only a couple of summer internships as experience (ie, no experience with construction documents at all other than building systems class). would i say that going to columbia allowed me to swing this? absolutely. from studio to building systems to software courses to professional practice to history, columbia's curriculum is excellent and the faculty second-to-none. i really wonder whether my portfolio would be anywhere near the quality it is if i had gone to another school. and, having gone to another relatively good and completely different architecture school for undergrad (wash u), i feel pretty comfortable in saying that columbia really does have something special going on.
now, how any of this factors into justifying the cost factor is obviously for each individual to decide for himself, but, personally, i feel that the costs were completely justified.
here are some of the things i've heard from other people....since i myself am going to be attending an ivy arch school
-ivy league schools give you a lot of great connections..giving you more opportunities and work in reputable firms..(along with good portfolio etc)
-the quality of education is really good...good professors..visiting crits...facilities
-since the admission rate tends to be quite competitive in these ivy league institutions, you work with highly motivated and talented students
-good quality program gives architect tools to be a good problem solver..which is good in the long term
-a lot of this is also the experience too...ppl i've talked to who have attended these ivy institutions have had no regrets
-the school you go to is very important if you plan on teaching architecture in the future.
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