I'm working on the building which is designated as landmark building. Here, I have a couple of questions which I wish to get some help~please.
1.2nd exit leading to the closed rear yard.
we will put 4 condos in this over 40 feet high, 4 story buidling.
We may need 2 means of egress from every floor.
Luckily, we have old steel firestair at the rear side of the building which come down to the rear yard which is closed by other buildings.(even though it's outdoor)
Since , we cannot provide the direct exit from the rear yard to street at the ground floor, we want people to go down to cellar and come back out to the street.
Do you think it makes sense?
or, our second means of egress is fine if only the outdoor steel stair find its way to the outdoor rear yard?(just like sometimes rooftop can be the refuge place)
2. rooftop extension in landmark building.
we may will put extra floor to the existing structure.
Since, facade of the landmarked building cannot be redesigned, we are careful about this issue.This rooftop extension will be set back from the face of the facade, but I don't know if this is allowable.
3. handicap access to one of the unit?
Do we need to provide ramp for one unit?(probably the basement floor), I don't know we need that or not. At least, we don't want to ruin the facade with this issue.
Related to all of the above, some people say I may need to take a look at the "old code" which is being implemented to this project.
Then, all of the 'new code' research I did was all incorrect? :-
I don't know where to start.
1. your best bet is to contact a code review official, make an appt, and show them what you'd like to do. we could answer from here, but the odds of us being right, given that the same code in diff states can be interpreted diff, some states have modifications to model codes, etc - we're like to mislead you.
sounds complicated anyway without visuals for you to walk us through.
the 'old code' reference sounds like what we in ky, using our modified version of the ibc, have in the form of a separate chapter specifically about historic preservation. basically it takes you out of the standard code altogether and asks you to examine every non-code-compliant move and argue for its imptce as part of maintaining the character and integrity of the existing bldg. i think its chap 34 or 37 in our ibc-based book.
2. sounds like your solution could be a good one but, again, it's going to depend on local jurisdiction. in this case, there is probably an architectural review committee for the landmarks district (diff from code review official, and necessary to resolve prior in most cases because you'll have to have a.r.c. sign-off before reviewers will finalize their review). find out who they are and see if you can get a preliminary review. even BEFORE that, their job shouldn't be to design your project but to interpret regs. you need to know those regs. they may answer your questions.
big issues will be: how tall is the new floor?, how far back from the existing facade?, can it be seen from the street? (not usu a deal breaker), what is it made of? most (smart) landmarks group want new work to distinguish itself from the old, not match it, so that the existing structure maintains its integrity/identity and you're not confusing historic/non-historic.
3. kentucky has adopted adaag as part of its bldg code. this is not true everywhere. the only universal is that the old ada is law. code may not enforce it but you and your owner/developer may be subject to civil suit if you don't meet it.
more importantly (imo) why would you design something that you want to be really great and beautiful - that you want people to admire because you're an architect - but only make it accessible to certain people? yes, it's hard. but bite the bullet.
Before you contact a city official, you may want to look at the 'Building Code' and 'Building Laws of the City of New York' books. The latter details building laws relating to buildings built before 1968.
You can get both at the Municipal Building downtown.
cric...i totally agree with the other two responses...get information from an official person...but, i am working on a res bldg in NYC and we have had similar issues...so just to tell you how ours turned out: yes, one of scissor stair exits in in the cellar, and then back up another stair to the front (this exit door and the other one must be 15' apart) and 2. our apts had to be ADA adaptable (not accessible)...didn't have the roof issue.
but remember, each zone in NYC is totally different, and if you get involved with Quality Housing or anythign like that...it gets MORE complicated.
these were our resolves...just for your own information...but go talk to someone...get a GOOD expeditor! NYC DOB is all over us about everything!
the most important thing is to get an expeditor and ask him/her these questions. In NYC, it is not feasible to just go to a city official and ask them questions.
Steven, the "old code" refers to the NYC code that existed before 1968 and still applies for some alterations to pre-1968 buildings. Also, the ADA only applies to publicly accessible buildings, not residences. In this case, NYC requires elevator buildings to be adaptable according to RS 4-6, which modifies ANSI A117.1, which is basically the same as ADAAG.
cric, if you get a professional answer to your questions, please post them. Anyway, here are my thoughts,
1. 2nd means of egress to rear yard is probably ok.
2. you will have to prove that the rooftop addition is not visible from the street. I've worked on projects where landmarks required a full scale mock-up on the site.
3. I don't know. In general I say make your building as accessible as possible, but a ramp might not be worth the cost or harm to the historic building.
i love that there's a job called expeditor in ny! beautiful.
the 'old code' situation in ny sounds wild - that they'd still reference it, i mean.
generally we see single family residences are not subject to ada, but multi-family are reviewed/interpreted as publicly accessible. but it's also somewhat discretionary, depending on jurisdiction and individual reviewer's interpretation, in our relatively small city. i hope that in a construction market as big as ny they've standardized it more so that the rules are the rules.
May 8, 06 6:56 am ·
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Brownstone Building in Upper West, NY
I'm working on the building which is designated as landmark building. Here, I have a couple of questions which I wish to get some help~please.
1.2nd exit leading to the closed rear yard.
we will put 4 condos in this over 40 feet high, 4 story buidling.
We may need 2 means of egress from every floor.
Luckily, we have old steel firestair at the rear side of the building which come down to the rear yard which is closed by other buildings.(even though it's outdoor)
Since , we cannot provide the direct exit from the rear yard to street at the ground floor, we want people to go down to cellar and come back out to the street.
Do you think it makes sense?
or, our second means of egress is fine if only the outdoor steel stair find its way to the outdoor rear yard?(just like sometimes rooftop can be the refuge place)
2. rooftop extension in landmark building.
we may will put extra floor to the existing structure.
Since, facade of the landmarked building cannot be redesigned, we are careful about this issue.This rooftop extension will be set back from the face of the facade, but I don't know if this is allowable.
3. handicap access to one of the unit?
Do we need to provide ramp for one unit?(probably the basement floor), I don't know we need that or not. At least, we don't want to ruin the facade with this issue.
Related to all of the above, some people say I may need to take a look at the "old code" which is being implemented to this project.
Then, all of the 'new code' research I did was all incorrect? :-
I don't know where to start.
Thank you for the help!
1. your best bet is to contact a code review official, make an appt, and show them what you'd like to do. we could answer from here, but the odds of us being right, given that the same code in diff states can be interpreted diff, some states have modifications to model codes, etc - we're like to mislead you.
sounds complicated anyway without visuals for you to walk us through.
the 'old code' reference sounds like what we in ky, using our modified version of the ibc, have in the form of a separate chapter specifically about historic preservation. basically it takes you out of the standard code altogether and asks you to examine every non-code-compliant move and argue for its imptce as part of maintaining the character and integrity of the existing bldg. i think its chap 34 or 37 in our ibc-based book.
2. sounds like your solution could be a good one but, again, it's going to depend on local jurisdiction. in this case, there is probably an architectural review committee for the landmarks district (diff from code review official, and necessary to resolve prior in most cases because you'll have to have a.r.c. sign-off before reviewers will finalize their review). find out who they are and see if you can get a preliminary review. even BEFORE that, their job shouldn't be to design your project but to interpret regs. you need to know those regs. they may answer your questions.
big issues will be: how tall is the new floor?, how far back from the existing facade?, can it be seen from the street? (not usu a deal breaker), what is it made of? most (smart) landmarks group want new work to distinguish itself from the old, not match it, so that the existing structure maintains its integrity/identity and you're not confusing historic/non-historic.
3. kentucky has adopted adaag as part of its bldg code. this is not true everywhere. the only universal is that the old ada is law. code may not enforce it but you and your owner/developer may be subject to civil suit if you don't meet it.
more importantly (imo) why would you design something that you want to be really great and beautiful - that you want people to admire because you're an architect - but only make it accessible to certain people? yes, it's hard. but bite the bullet.
Before you contact a city official, you may want to look at the 'Building Code' and 'Building Laws of the City of New York' books. The latter details building laws relating to buildings built before 1968.
You can get both at the Municipal Building downtown.
cric...i totally agree with the other two responses...get information from an official person...but, i am working on a res bldg in NYC and we have had similar issues...so just to tell you how ours turned out: yes, one of scissor stair exits in in the cellar, and then back up another stair to the front (this exit door and the other one must be 15' apart) and 2. our apts had to be ADA adaptable (not accessible)...didn't have the roof issue.
but remember, each zone in NYC is totally different, and if you get involved with Quality Housing or anythign like that...it gets MORE complicated.
these were our resolves...just for your own information...but go talk to someone...get a GOOD expeditor! NYC DOB is all over us about everything!
the most important thing is to get an expeditor and ask him/her these questions. In NYC, it is not feasible to just go to a city official and ask them questions.
Steven, the "old code" refers to the NYC code that existed before 1968 and still applies for some alterations to pre-1968 buildings. Also, the ADA only applies to publicly accessible buildings, not residences. In this case, NYC requires elevator buildings to be adaptable according to RS 4-6, which modifies ANSI A117.1, which is basically the same as ADAAG.
cric, if you get a professional answer to your questions, please post them. Anyway, here are my thoughts,
1. 2nd means of egress to rear yard is probably ok.
2. you will have to prove that the rooftop addition is not visible from the street. I've worked on projects where landmarks required a full scale mock-up on the site.
3. I don't know. In general I say make your building as accessible as possible, but a ramp might not be worth the cost or harm to the historic building.
Steven, unfortunately, the NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission has rarely been described as "smart". at least not by me.
i love that there's a job called expeditor in ny! beautiful.
the 'old code' situation in ny sounds wild - that they'd still reference it, i mean.
generally we see single family residences are not subject to ada, but multi-family are reviewed/interpreted as publicly accessible. but it's also somewhat discretionary, depending on jurisdiction and individual reviewer's interpretation, in our relatively small city. i hope that in a construction market as big as ny they've standardized it more so that the rules are the rules.
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