OK, so im in the market for a new laptop. through my research i've narrowed my choices down to the Dell e1705 and the HP dv8000t. both run about the same in price [although only after a Dell coupon]. im sort of in a dell hating phase right now, but cnet.com rates the dell better than the HP, although notebookreview.com rates them both very highly.
does anyone have an opinion, own either one?
programs i'd be running: aCAD, illus CS2, p-shop CS, rhino and perhaps maya 7. both machines come with a 256MB video card.
my other question relates to processor speed and RAM.
is it better to have more speed and less RAM or vice versa? im trying to decide between a 1.83 or 2.0 GHZ and 1 or 2 MB RAM.
i realize 2 and 2 are best, but do i need it, is it money well spent?
I've got an almost 2 year old Dell 8000 (widescreen, only 128mb graphics card, 1G ram, 2.0GHZ processor), and it works great for similar apps. I use 3DSMax instead of rhino, but imagine they use similar resources. What I did was bought it with the good processor, and then bought the RAM aftermarket and popped it in myself. Dell seriously rips you off on RAM, so even if you do decide to get the bigger RAM package, it will probably be more cost effective to get it elsewhere.
i hear you there, although its only like $100 to go from 1MB to 2MB...now im sure i could get it a little cheaper somewhere, but its not breaking the bank.
but regardless of that you think i should pony up for the faster processor and then if i need more RAM later i can always add it? that makes sense.
yep. I actually bought mine with the baseline 256 of RAM, which made a big price difference. It only cost me around $120 to get two 512M cards aftermarket. What's the baseline model come with and what is the cost difference there?
On the other hand, if you're wanting to go from 1G to 2G, then make sure that your 1G is composed of only one card. A lot of places cheap out on you by giving you 2 512M cards, which makes it more difficult to upgrade to 2G. In that situation you would have to go out and buy 2 1G cards, which is obviously twice as expensive. So just pay attention to what configuration your RAM comes in in the initial model so that you can make the most of it, because most people won't buy used RAM, so if you can't keep using what you've got (i.e. replacing 2 512 M cards with 2 1G cards), that'll put you out some $$.
er, hopefully someone else will come along to help you with that! I've never gotten into the whole screen size/resolution madness, so don't really understand it myself. Good luck on your choice.
i've got an hp. it's the 17" widescreen, although i can't figure out if it's the ultra or normal brightview. sorry.
in any event, it's clearly the NICEST, EASIEST to stare at monitor i've ever worked with.
right now my system's a p5/3.4mhz/768mg ram/80g internal @ 7200rpm.
i run the following ad nauseum - adobe cs (ill/ph/ind/acr), acad'04 and my workhorse, vectorworks 12.
in general i love my computer, as much as i can actually love an inanimate object.
i usually have 4-5 programs + winamp running at any one time. at this moment those programs include winamp/firefox/excel/vectorworks/acrobat.
although i would like to have more ram, i second the notion put forth earlier that they work in increments of two.
for instance, i went to upgrade from 512 to 1g thinking that i had one 512 chip internal and just needed one other.
not until i had bought my new pny512sddr ram card and opened my machine did i stupidly come to realize that there was two 256m cards, now with the new 512m deal i have totalled 768.
my rendering is not too speedy, but fortunately i don't need to do lots of it.
the cons:
heavy like a mother'effer.
fan runs loud AND hot, though apparently to no detriment to the hardware.
short battery life. both in terms of it's daily use and it's lifespan.
did i mention heavy as sh1t?
that's all i can give at the moment...btw, mine is the zd7320 i think. or maybe the zd7230. can't remember.
is your machine a centrino? if so, that adds plenty of $$ but removes plenty of pounds.
any other specifics you want to know, i'll get to more info later.
Best support in the biz (it's a Worksation-business machine, which means you get their business support, not the home support - average wait for a US tech support guy is about 5-10 minutes, max, and they know their stuff).
It just came out. One of the nicer looking PCs, too.
i needed hp's support once. it was typical overseas support type stuff.
if i remember correctly, super over the top polite indian operator who pretty much dialed in on the problem without much effort. i was pretty surprised actually. had a lovely chat about kirala, gujurat, mumbai, etc.
he gave me his mom's recipe for uthappam. not really, but it was fine for what i needed at the time.
i've heard dell's support is great too, but that they're more practised if you know what i mean.
i don't know at all how the intel core duo stacks up against what i've got which is the p5 with HyperThreading technology that was the new darling chip when i bought my machine.
around $2200 or so including my 3yr service plan. was pretty tops'o'the line at the time. less so now. prices have come down on this machine since the duo came out.
btw - also a spec dvd-r/w was included.
i maxed out my 80g internal pretty quick, have since added another 80g external just for music, and an additional lacie 250g for backup.
i just wonder how much is too much to spend right now, how long do these machines last? that precision is super nice, but do i need a machine like that? will i just want/need another one in 2-4 years anyway?
i guess i wonder if i should pony up $2500 for the M90 or spend $1600-1800 on the HP or the e1705.
i know its my money, but does anyone have a sense on what's too much?
buy the best you can afford. The better the machine is now, the longer it will be useful/competitive. It's a mistake to think that saving a few hundred dollars will make a big difference to your next purchase. Better to spend it now (if you can, of course) and have a top of the line machine.
My rule of thumb (and others) is to buy one notch down from the best. You'll get top performance, but without the mark up.
That said, if you don't need the powerful graphics of the M90, the e1705 is still a great machine. I'd skip the HPs, personally. They were very nice before Dell came out with these models, but I personally think the Dells are the nicest (next to the Apples, but they cost a ton and have bad support = long waiting).
Remember, though, that you have a choice with the e1705. Yon can buy it on the home side and get the coupon and home support (think India, although they are knowledgeable, they don't come close to comparing to the biz support - I know, I use them both) or pay mroe and get it on the biz side.
My advice would be to try to get an on the phone rep to sell you a biz machine, but with the coupon. They sometimes have manager's coupons they can use. So, #1, try to buy from the biz side and con the salesperson into giving you a deal, if that fails then save the bucks and get the home side.
This is just a guess, but if you don't think you need the M90 or will get the use out of it, don't get it. It's top o' the line and meant for folks that need the best (to make money). For me, it's worth it 'cause it's business, but for the more casual user the e1705 is great (just make sure you get good things like 2gigs ram, 7200rpm hard drive, upgraded screen, etc.)
I've said this before, but I still don't know how trace can say dell has good support. I'm fairly certain he's the only person I've ever heard (seen) say that.
even when I delt (quite often) with their uber-expensive gold server support, it was still an absurdly complicatated phone system to get in line for what was obviously an idiot reading from a manual.
I would toss in my usual stump for a lenovo IBM t60p purchased through an edu loophole (knock off anywhere from 15-40%), but if you need 17" widscreen then that tosses them out.
here's another question, i thought i read on here that certain 3D programs [maya didn't mesh well with the nvidia video card, is this not true?
because the m90 has a:
NVIDIA® Quadro FX 1500M, 256MB (dedicated)
while the e1705 has a:
256MB ATI MOBILITY™ RADEON® X1400 HyperMemory
the quadro (or ati's firegl) will perform better in programs that make use of the extended openGl featureset. maya is one of them.
graphics drivers are fairly fickle and easy to mess up. most people who run around screaming that such-and-such card won't work with such and such program genearlly had problems at one point and somehow decided that their problems must be universal. that is rarely the case.
additionally, workstation level graphics cards can be configured to give better image quality in some situations (enabling hardware line AA, for example)
RAArch - I have a HP8000 - its pretty damn amazing to tell you the truth, and this from coming from a dell (granted it was smaller). The screen is crisp and clear and I've not had a problem since buying it last November. There are two downsides - of which matter very little to me, the first is the heat generated from the processor and the other is the poor battery life - less than an hour. I've been told I can increase the battery time with an upgrade of the battery - but really would only think about that after this one completely dies - the beast is usually plugged in. Some say the weight is an issue, but I guarantee you any other laptop presently on the markey + accessories weighs about the same if not more, and that's something I've checked personally. Oh I made slight upgrades on mine going for the 512 - the intention was 2gb but only specification cards work with this one...and they aren't cheap, maybe later when I can write it off as a business expense. Hope this helps tidy your decision
how long have you had it? is yours the dv8000t? they say on the HP site that its new...not sure what "new" actually means. does yours have the 8 Cell Lithium Ion Battery?
thanks for your input.
i'd also like to hear more about the video card issue
The choice is actually pretty simple --Dells are made of mostly proprietary parts, so you have to go to them for repairs. Since their service is good, for most folks its a reasonable choice.
On the other hand, if you can fix your own laptop, or have a friend who can do so for cheap (for beer) then it would be an unhappy choice.
well, that's just been my experience. I don't care for the inner workings of a computer, so my knowledge is limited. Perhaps that's why I think they do a good job? Eitherway, they've helped me do everything from install a second processor, install a new drive, reconfigure my RAID from 1 to 5 and then several maintenance issues (unlike the home side, they'll send out a new part very quickly).
As for the screen, I agree that there are better ones out there (assuming the e1705 and M90 have the same screen as the 9300, Samsung or LG made, I believe). Sony has the best I've seen, but they discontinued the only laptop I'd consider from them (and the have a horrible record for support).
The big clincher for me is the 24 hour service. I'd consider an Apple, but not without an onsite 24 hour support.
Just one perons experience, I guess. Go to www.laptopforums.com and read through the posts. There is tons on there, although most seems to be game oriented discussions (particularly regarding graphics).
Get an HP Pavilion with an AMD Turion 64 processor. This will will be a big difference once windows vista comes out... Its the up and coming 64 bit operating system so you will need the 64 bit processor to take advantage of it.
I have no experience with the corporate service, but the home service from dell sucks donkey balls. If you have a problem that is not specifically taught to the person you get on the phone with, they have no idea what to do. And they've figured out that "let me talk to your manager" probably means they'll be getting in trouble, so they do EVERYTHING they can to avoid that, up to and including hanging up on you.
I love my dell, but I hope I never have to talk with those people again (I had a shipping problem).
I like having a workstation-level card (quadro or firegl) and think it's worth the extra money if you spend lots of time with maya or autocad or whatever.
hardware line AA (anti-aliasing) is a feature that smoothes out the jaggies on vector lines. if you have a quadro or firegl, you can enable it in the driver settings for autocad or maya (or any number of other graphics applications). it makes complicated cad drawings or wireframe models much easier to read.
why waste your time with a 17" laptop. pro-star just came out with a 19". it looks badass but it will set you back $3600. i saw the hp at costco for $1500, but it seemed to be tailored to the average consumer.
you don't need to be a 'business' to buy from the business side. It's actually the only way to buy Workstations (the M65, M90, dual proc machines, etc.).
Before buying a 17", consider if you really do want a 17"... 17" laptops hinder portability, and its screens not actually That much bigger- only wider usually, actually.
Ive found 15" to be jsut right as notebook, 17" too clunky. I know the bigger is better is tempting, but think about it.
17" notebook, HP or Dell - help me choose
OK, so im in the market for a new laptop. through my research i've narrowed my choices down to the Dell e1705 and the HP dv8000t. both run about the same in price [although only after a Dell coupon]. im sort of in a dell hating phase right now, but cnet.com rates the dell better than the HP, although notebookreview.com rates them both very highly.
does anyone have an opinion, own either one?
programs i'd be running: aCAD, illus CS2, p-shop CS, rhino and perhaps maya 7. both machines come with a 256MB video card.
my other question relates to processor speed and RAM.
is it better to have more speed and less RAM or vice versa? im trying to decide between a 1.83 or 2.0 GHZ and 1 or 2 MB RAM.
i realize 2 and 2 are best, but do i need it, is it money well spent?
thanks for any help.
I've got an almost 2 year old Dell 8000 (widescreen, only 128mb graphics card, 1G ram, 2.0GHZ processor), and it works great for similar apps. I use 3DSMax instead of rhino, but imagine they use similar resources. What I did was bought it with the good processor, and then bought the RAM aftermarket and popped it in myself. Dell seriously rips you off on RAM, so even if you do decide to get the bigger RAM package, it will probably be more cost effective to get it elsewhere.
i hear you there, although its only like $100 to go from 1MB to 2MB...now im sure i could get it a little cheaper somewhere, but its not breaking the bank.
but regardless of that you think i should pony up for the faster processor and then if i need more RAM later i can always add it? that makes sense.
yep. I actually bought mine with the baseline 256 of RAM, which made a big price difference. It only cost me around $120 to get two 512M cards aftermarket. What's the baseline model come with and what is the cost difference there?
On the other hand, if you're wanting to go from 1G to 2G, then make sure that your 1G is composed of only one card. A lot of places cheap out on you by giving you 2 512M cards, which makes it more difficult to upgrade to 2G. In that situation you would have to go out and buy 2 1G cards, which is obviously twice as expensive. So just pay attention to what configuration your RAM comes in in the initial model so that you can make the most of it, because most people won't buy used RAM, so if you can't keep using what you've got (i.e. replacing 2 512 M cards with 2 1G cards), that'll put you out some $$.
that's a good point. i know for a fact the HP gets 1MB through 2 512's.
and what about the screen? seems that i want the ultra-brightview, but the resolution is less, what gives?
17.0" WSXGA+ BrightView Widescreen (1680x1050)
17.0" WXGA+ Ultra BrightView Widescreen (1440x900)
er, hopefully someone else will come along to help you with that! I've never gotten into the whole screen size/resolution madness, so don't really understand it myself. Good luck on your choice.
appreciate your help!
anyone else have an opinion on either of these computers?
thanks
i've got an hp. it's the 17" widescreen, although i can't figure out if it's the ultra or normal brightview. sorry.
in any event, it's clearly the NICEST, EASIEST to stare at monitor i've ever worked with.
right now my system's a p5/3.4mhz/768mg ram/80g internal @ 7200rpm.
i run the following ad nauseum - adobe cs (ill/ph/ind/acr), acad'04 and my workhorse, vectorworks 12.
in general i love my computer, as much as i can actually love an inanimate object.
i usually have 4-5 programs + winamp running at any one time. at this moment those programs include winamp/firefox/excel/vectorworks/acrobat.
although i would like to have more ram, i second the notion put forth earlier that they work in increments of two.
for instance, i went to upgrade from 512 to 1g thinking that i had one 512 chip internal and just needed one other.
not until i had bought my new pny512sddr ram card and opened my machine did i stupidly come to realize that there was two 256m cards, now with the new 512m deal i have totalled 768.
my rendering is not too speedy, but fortunately i don't need to do lots of it.
the cons:
heavy like a mother'effer.
fan runs loud AND hot, though apparently to no detriment to the hardware.
short battery life. both in terms of it's daily use and it's lifespan.
did i mention heavy as sh1t?
that's all i can give at the moment...btw, mine is the zd7320 i think. or maybe the zd7230. can't remember.
is your machine a centrino? if so, that adds plenty of $$ but removes plenty of pounds.
any other specifics you want to know, i'll get to more info later.
mtyltl.
haven't bought it yet, but here are the specs...says its 8lbs, certainly not light, but im not looking to travel much with it, or i should far.
one other question for you, have you had to use HP's support? how is it?
Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Professional with SP2
Intel(R) Core(TM) Duo processor T2500 (2.0 GHz)
17.0" WSXGA+ BrightView Widescreen (1680x1050)
256MB NVIDIA(R) GeForce(R) Go 7400
1.0GB DDR2 SDRAM (2x512MB)
100 GB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive
LightScribe 8x DVD+/-RW&CD-RW Combo w/Double Layer
Intel(R) PRO/Wireless 3945ABG Network Connection
8 Cell Lithium Ion Battery
thanks for the help.
Dell M90. Incredible machine reasonably priced (I spec'd a loaded one out for less than $3k).
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/featuresdetails.aspx/precn_m90?
Best support in the biz (it's a Worksation-business machine, which means you get their business support, not the home support - average wait for a US tech support guy is about 5-10 minutes, max, and they know their stuff).
It just came out. One of the nicer looking PCs, too.
hmmm. pricey, but nice. the HP came in at $1800 and the e1705 came in at $1600 [after $750 coupon]
i needed hp's support once. it was typical overseas support type stuff.
if i remember correctly, super over the top polite indian operator who pretty much dialed in on the problem without much effort. i was pretty surprised actually. had a lovely chat about kirala, gujurat, mumbai, etc.
he gave me his mom's recipe for uthappam. not really, but it was fine for what i needed at the time.
i've heard dell's support is great too, but that they're more practised if you know what i mean.
i don't know at all how the intel core duo stacks up against what i've got which is the p5 with HyperThreading technology that was the new darling chip when i bought my machine.
around $2200 or so including my 3yr service plan. was pretty tops'o'the line at the time. less so now. prices have come down on this machine since the duo came out.
btw - also a spec dvd-r/w was included.
i maxed out my 80g internal pretty quick, have since added another 80g external just for music, and an additional lacie 250g for backup.
i just wonder how much is too much to spend right now, how long do these machines last? that precision is super nice, but do i need a machine like that? will i just want/need another one in 2-4 years anyway?
i guess i wonder if i should pony up $2500 for the M90 or spend $1600-1800 on the HP or the e1705.
i know its my money, but does anyone have a sense on what's too much?
buy the best you can afford. The better the machine is now, the longer it will be useful/competitive. It's a mistake to think that saving a few hundred dollars will make a big difference to your next purchase. Better to spend it now (if you can, of course) and have a top of the line machine.
My rule of thumb (and others) is to buy one notch down from the best. You'll get top performance, but without the mark up.
That said, if you don't need the powerful graphics of the M90, the e1705 is still a great machine. I'd skip the HPs, personally. They were very nice before Dell came out with these models, but I personally think the Dells are the nicest (next to the Apples, but they cost a ton and have bad support = long waiting).
Remember, though, that you have a choice with the e1705. Yon can buy it on the home side and get the coupon and home support (think India, although they are knowledgeable, they don't come close to comparing to the biz support - I know, I use them both) or pay mroe and get it on the biz side.
My advice would be to try to get an on the phone rep to sell you a biz machine, but with the coupon. They sometimes have manager's coupons they can use. So, #1, try to buy from the biz side and con the salesperson into giving you a deal, if that fails then save the bucks and get the home side.
This is just a guess, but if you don't think you need the M90 or will get the use out of it, don't get it. It's top o' the line and meant for folks that need the best (to make money). For me, it's worth it 'cause it's business, but for the more casual user the e1705 is great (just make sure you get good things like 2gigs ram, 7200rpm hard drive, upgraded screen, etc.)
Hope that helps.
thank you trace, very insightful. i have two remaining questions for you, if you wouldn't mind.
1. do you have an opinion on my screen question....
seems that i want the ultra-brightview, but the resolution is less, what gives?
17.0" WSXGA+ BrightView Widescreen (1680x1050)
17.0" WXGA+ Ultra BrightView Widescreen (1440x900
and...
2. can any joe schmo buy from the business side of dell? in other words, i don't need to be a business owner, do i?
thanks again.
I've said this before, but I still don't know how trace can say dell has good support. I'm fairly certain he's the only person I've ever heard (seen) say that.
even when I delt (quite often) with their uber-expensive gold server support, it was still an absurdly complicatated phone system to get in line for what was obviously an idiot reading from a manual.
I would toss in my usual stump for a lenovo IBM t60p purchased through an edu loophole (knock off anywhere from 15-40%), but if you need 17" widscreen then that tosses them out.
i hate dell.
here's another question, i thought i read on here that certain 3D programs [maya didn't mesh well with the nvidia video card, is this not true?
because the m90 has a:
NVIDIA® Quadro FX 1500M, 256MB (dedicated)
while the e1705 has a:
256MB ATI MOBILITY™ RADEON® X1400 HyperMemory
difference here?
just bought a dell m65 - love it. why do you want to carry around a 17"er? i got a 15.4 and am buying a bigger screen for home.
the quadro (or ati's firegl) will perform better in programs that make use of the extended openGl featureset. maya is one of them.
graphics drivers are fairly fickle and easy to mess up. most people who run around screaming that such-and-such card won't work with such and such program genearlly had problems at one point and somehow decided that their problems must be universal. that is rarely the case.
additionally, workstation level graphics cards can be configured to give better image quality in some situations (enabling hardware line AA, for example)
that was a little greek to me...bottom line though is that either video card would work fine, but the m90's quadro would work better?
macbook
RAArch - I have a HP8000 - its pretty damn amazing to tell you the truth, and this from coming from a dell (granted it was smaller). The screen is crisp and clear and I've not had a problem since buying it last November. There are two downsides - of which matter very little to me, the first is the heat generated from the processor and the other is the poor battery life - less than an hour. I've been told I can increase the battery time with an upgrade of the battery - but really would only think about that after this one completely dies - the beast is usually plugged in. Some say the weight is an issue, but I guarantee you any other laptop presently on the markey + accessories weighs about the same if not more, and that's something I've checked personally. Oh I made slight upgrades on mine going for the 512 - the intention was 2gb but only specification cards work with this one...and they aren't cheap, maybe later when I can write it off as a business expense. Hope this helps tidy your decision
architechnophilia-
how long have you had it? is yours the dv8000t? they say on the HP site that its new...not sure what "new" actually means. does yours have the 8 Cell Lithium Ion Battery?
thanks for your input.
i'd also like to hear more about the video card issue
heya
had it since November, yes its one of the t's can't remember the exact number tho. Very new. and with the 8 cell. The video card is Ati
The choice is actually pretty simple --Dells are made of mostly proprietary parts, so you have to go to them for repairs. Since their service is good, for most folks its a reasonable choice.
On the other hand, if you can fix your own laptop, or have a friend who can do so for cheap (for beer) then it would be an unhappy choice.
well, that's just been my experience. I don't care for the inner workings of a computer, so my knowledge is limited. Perhaps that's why I think they do a good job? Eitherway, they've helped me do everything from install a second processor, install a new drive, reconfigure my RAID from 1 to 5 and then several maintenance issues (unlike the home side, they'll send out a new part very quickly).
As for the screen, I agree that there are better ones out there (assuming the e1705 and M90 have the same screen as the 9300, Samsung or LG made, I believe). Sony has the best I've seen, but they discontinued the only laptop I'd consider from them (and the have a horrible record for support).
The big clincher for me is the 24 hour service. I'd consider an Apple, but not without an onsite 24 hour support.
Just one perons experience, I guess. Go to www.laptopforums.com and read through the posts. There is tons on there, although most seems to be game oriented discussions (particularly regarding graphics).
again, much thanks trace, you've been very helpful
Get an HP Pavilion with an AMD Turion 64 processor. This will will be a big difference once windows vista comes out... Its the up and coming 64 bit operating system so you will need the 64 bit processor to take advantage of it.
I have no experience with the corporate service, but the home service from dell sucks donkey balls. If you have a problem that is not specifically taught to the person you get on the phone with, they have no idea what to do. And they've figured out that "let me talk to your manager" probably means they'll be getting in trouble, so they do EVERYTHING they can to avoid that, up to and including hanging up on you.
I love my dell, but I hope I never have to talk with those people again (I had a shipping problem).
March06: yes.
I like having a workstation-level card (quadro or firegl) and think it's worth the extra money if you spend lots of time with maya or autocad or whatever.
hardware line AA (anti-aliasing) is a feature that smoothes out the jaggies on vector lines. if you have a quadro or firegl, you can enable it in the driver settings for autocad or maya (or any number of other graphics applications). it makes complicated cad drawings or wireframe models much easier to read.
why waste your time with a 17" laptop. pro-star just came out with a 19". it looks badass but it will set you back $3600. i saw the hp at costco for $1500, but it seemed to be tailored to the average consumer.
almost forgot....
you don't need to be a 'business' to buy from the business side. It's actually the only way to buy Workstations (the M65, M90, dual proc machines, etc.).
Screen - I'd go for the UXGA.
Before buying a 17", consider if you really do want a 17"... 17" laptops hinder portability, and its screens not actually That much bigger- only wider usually, actually.
Ive found 15" to be jsut right as notebook, 17" too clunky. I know the bigger is better is tempting, but think about it.
I was going to buy the AMD version, but I heard rumours that ATi graphics card wasn't optimised for it, and that it can be a wee troublesome at times
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