RISD is expensive, but is it worth the $$? How's the program/education? Does a RISD degree help to "open doors" for internships? Is RISD a nationally known school? We're just the parents, we don't know much about architecture, but we have to come up with the cash, so need to be involved in this decision. Thanks for any help/guidance you can give us.
RISD is known nationally and internationally as a top design school. In the US it is one of the top two or three of this type of program.
RISD has great facilities, an excellent career center, etc. Finding internships would not be a problem.
But that having been said - and having attended a similar design school myself - at this point I question the wisdom of choosing a design school rather than a more broad liberal arts program as an undergraduate.
Design schools are extremely intense, time-consuming programs. There is very little room in the curriculum for coursework in other areas - generally only a minimum of liberal arts courses are required and many of these are in history of art, architecture, etc. RISD has an exchange program with Brown, so the problem is not the availability of course offerings, great libraries, etc., but it is very difficult to schedule around the required architecture curriculum.
It's also hard to find time to do many other things outside of the architecture studio. One of my regrets about my undergrad experience is that I didn't have the usual range of extracurricular activities that are part of a more traditional college education.
I would have no concerns at all about the quality of design education at RISD or about your son's employability
.
However, some other things to consider are that B.Arch programs in general have a very high drop-out rate - I don't know RISD's statistics on this but many schools graduate only about half of those who start the major. It's possible that your son will decide at some point that architecture isn't what he thought it was (not an uncommon realization.) Of course this can happen in any major and at any school - but a person with an intensive design major who decides to switch to another design major or to a more academic field will often find that at least one additional year is required to catch up with the course requirements, etc.
These days there are more Master of Architecture programs than Bachelor of Architecture programs. Many schools have "phased out" their B.Arch programs entirely, and a recent AIA survey of employers showed that 40% of employers offer higher startting salaries to M.Arch grads than B.Archs, and that many employers expressed a preference for hiring M.Archs.
With a B.Arch your son could go on to do a "post professiona" 1- to 2-year M.Arch if he chose to do so - though it would not be an absolute necessity. But: "first professional" M.Arch programs currently graduate about the same number of students each year in the US as do B.Arch programs and these are the people your son would be competing with for entry-level jobs.
First-professional M.Arch programs take 2.5 to 3.5 years and are open to people from all undergrad fields of study (meaning people who studied everything from biology to music to art as undergrads are on equal footing for acceptance purposes.) So, if your son has any other interests I might encourage him to consider getting a broader undergrad education now and consider grad school later, rather than jump into design school at this point.
But this is just my opinion and others will tell you otherwise. The 5-year B.Arch is of course the fastest route to a professional degree - so possibly the most economical in the short-term.
Make sure that you and your son have realistic expectations about this profession. Entry-level salaries in the US range from 28k to 42k in various regions of the US but average 35k. It is often difficult to move beyond the mid-40k range without getting licensed. The licensing process usually takes a minimum of 3 to 4 years after graduation but currently averages 7.5 years. The average architect in the US with 15 years of professional experience makes 75k. RISD is currently in the top 10 "most expensive" schools in the US. Is it worth it? Only you and your son can really decide that.
"So, if your son has any other interests I might encourage him to consider getting a broader undergrad education now and consider grad school later, rather than jump into design school at this point."
YES! I couldn't emphasize this point more! I received a B.A. (a Liberal Arts degree) in Architecture from a state university in the Midwest. I'm currently a Masters student at an ivy on the east coast.
If your son really wants to become an architect, the best thing he could do is get an undergraduate degree in a different discipline and study architecture during graduate school. Odds are he'll want to get a masters after school (better pay, etc.) so it is probably best if he spends his time learning about something seemingly unrelated (philosophy, physics, english, art history, cultural studies, history) that will develop his skills as a thinker - art or architecture classes on the side can help him with his skills as a "maker" and the portfolio for graduate school.
By the time he is done with a degree in english (what I would have studied if I could go back and do it all over again) he'll be smarter and more articulate than half of his graduate school classmates who have spent the past however many years of their life cutting chipboard... In addition, he'll be able to bring a unique way of seeing and understanding architecture (as a result of studying something else), which always seems to result in some of the most interesting architecture in the end. Graduate schools in Architecture love students that have studied something else. As someone who studied architecture, I couldn't be more thankful for my exposure to those who did not study architecture as an undergraduate student.
As far as I am concerned, undergraduate degrees in architecture are a BAD idea. (Probably the reason places like Harvard don't offer such a degree in the first place...)
Just to continue marketfair's statement, most graduate schools of architecture admit a hefty percentage of each class from non-arch backgrounds. The GSD (harvard), for instance, tends to have an incoming class which is split about 50/50 between those with previous architecture experience and those without. I mention this to allay any fears that not studying architecture as an undergraduate will hurt your chances of getting into grad schools later on.
The salary question is a primary concern and should be explained to every student and parent. For many of us, we were under the misconception (as most of society is) that architects make a lot of money. They don't, plain and simple.
Many of us, myself included have a very solid education (4 year undergrad from UF in arch, 3 year Master from UCLA, both highly respected) and have chosen to leave the traditional path in architecture due to financial concerns (as well as professional concerns, but that's not worth getting into here). To the point, I owe a ton of money and could not be happy struggling. This is not to say that I am not trying to build my designs, just that I am not working in an architect's office, slowly working my way up - I've decided to take matters in my own hands, so to speak.
Personally, I could not imagine having an education in something else. I love it and it's what I am good at. However, I do wish I had looked at alternatives like I mention below, instead of just getting two degrees in architecture.
Obviously, your son has talent. RISD is a highly respected school, albeit not as respected in architecture as it is for art and design.
(I actually went to RISD for a summer Intro to Architecture program. I highly recommend it. I had a wonderful time and was quickly introduced to working nonstop and eventually pulling several all nighters - a great sample tasting of what the entire education will be)
If your son decides that this is a passion, and it must be to make it through it all, not just something he likes or is interested in, then I would say get a bach in it.
I would suggest either getting the a BArch, then a business degree, or a business degree and a MArch. However, I think, and this is just a guess, that having a BArch and an MBA would go farther than an undergrad biz degree and a MArch.
If you are concerned about money, I would suggest he think about getting a master degree in something profitable, such as the MBA or consider getting an MBA with a focus in Real Estate/Construction Management. There are several schools that offer this (Columbia is the first that comes to mind, but it's extremely expensive - I think $120k).
To get into a top MBA program, as with architecture (for grad, at least), is extremely competitive. Just things to be aware of.
Last note, tip o' the hat to ya for looking into things. I wish these resources were available when I was making decisions.
Ask every question that you come up with. Folks on here will help out. We're an opinionated, somewhat cynical but somehow still blindly optimistic bunch, so take some of this as simply one persons view.
before it seems like a unanimous opinion, i'd counter that entering architecture school as a freshman and continuing through the program (assuming your son sticks with it) is no less a good path than the starting-in-liberal-arts path described above.
i also went to a very expensive first professional degree program - in my case financed a lot by scholarships, student loans which i've finally retired, and work study - and i don't regret a penny. i've visited risd and found it to be a great facility, with a great faculty and a wonderfully well-rounded program. and, as noted above, it IS nationally recognized for it.
if your son has already been accepted to risd, going as a freshman should be a great experience for him. it will be transformative - having a tremendous impact in the formation of his values and interests in a way that a liberal arts education may not. one of the primary things that students get in architecture school that they don't get elsewhere is introduction to critical thinking (esp. a skill at self-critique) and spatial thinking. this can never happen too early, imo.
After high school, I spent 2 years at a state university studying humanities etc. After receiving an AA, I swithced to another state university to study architecture. The architecture degree that I received is a four year, pre-professional degree. In order to become licensed, I will have to attend graduate school (M.Arch 1).
Having spent the majority of my undergraduate career studying architecture, I found the experience extremely fulfilling, and recommend it to any young mind. Students from my undergrad class have gone on to do a number of things not directly related to the architectural profession. Our education provided us with analytical skills, making us critical thinkers who address our environments and practices more thoughtfully than many of our contemporaries from other fields of study.
I take exception to marketfair's statement that: if one were to study something other than architecture during undergrad, they would be smarter and more articulate than half of [their] graduate school classmates who have spent the past however many years of their life cutting chipboard. I only call this statement out to express that his/her experience is contrary to my own.
Everyone's comments have been helpful, though. Just sharing a different point of view...
I would also throw in this consideration regarding the B.Arch- If you get a B.Arch, there is no need for an M.Arch, and he has more options for grad school, including (but not limited to) Urban Design, Planning, Environmental Design, Landscape, etc. with would allow him to explore something else later, when he is more capable of making a choice about what *specifically* interests him. If he went somewhere that had a four year program, then for licensing purposes he would most likely be constrained to getting that professional M.Arch, and not necessarily have a chance to do that intense exploration. It's really a choice between exploring other topics casually as an undergrad, or intensively as a grad student.
If you've already made the decision that a B.Arch is the way to go, then be assured that RISD is well known to be a quality program.
If your son loves architecture, or thinks he will, and wants to get into it, by all means, encourage him to follow a BArch program. If it is too intense for him he can always switch into design or art and pursure architecture at the Master's level.
I would like to put my two cents in, however, that nothing in the world of architectural education can replace the value of good studio classes, and if you want to learn architecture, you cannot skimp on studio courses. A BArch will require 10 studios, an MArch is typically 6. In my opinion this is a shame for those who pursue only MArch's in architecture, for they are getting skimped on the most important aspect of the education process. (There are other benefits to an MArch, of course, and I feel those have been addressed by others above.)
A BArch is also the shortest route to the profession and can be cheaper than an undergrad + MArch combo (depending on your son's choice of schools).
RISD enjoys an excellent reputation and is known generally as being a free-thinking, creative school (within the context of other arch. schools). Getting a job out of school is not generally a problem in recent years but seems to depend more on market fluctations and location than in the name of your school.
The BArch is extremely difficult and intense; most schools have a high dropout rate in the program. Your son should know that going in, and please, as parents, try not to put any pressure on him grades-wise. Arch. grades are highly subjective and many schools intentionally depress the grades in order to scare students into working extremely hard. Your son will come home at semester breaks looking absolutely dead exhausted, mentally fatigued, etc. You will be horrified at the stories he tells you about what his professors say to the students during critiques. You will want to fly out to the school personally and give his professors a dressing down, at least once in your child's arch. school career. Trust me on this one.
But it's also an amazing education. He'll learn so much, not just about architecture but about ways to think about the world, about many other disciplines, about how to work hard, etcetera. If he thinks he'll like it, please encourage him to try for it. If he struggles, tell him it's ok to struggle, and to just try his hardest, as long as he enjoys it keep on going! If he really starts to hate it, it's ok, he can transfer out and it won't affect his professional life. He can always pick it up again later.
The comments are all on target, but I would add a bit about RISD itself. I spent a year there, and left because I felt the program was too heavy on the conceptual design without enough emphasis on the fundamentals of architecture. Having said that, if I had done my undergrad in architecture I think RISD would have been a great place to push my design skills and question my understanding of architecture. If your son is set on a B.Arch at RISD, my advice would be to plan on attending an M.Arch program that will teach him how to translate conceptual design into architecture.
As for internships and work after school, as I was deciding to leave I met with a career councilor at RISD. He told me that a lot of firms look for RISD grads that have been working for a couple years, but are hesitant to hire them directly out of school, because they feel they 'have their head in the clouds' and don't understand what it actually takes to put a building together.
I don't mean to bash RISD. It is a good program, and my experience was several years ago. And as far as student loans go, what better investment than education. And a B.Arch at RISD will expose your son to a world of possibilities outside of traditional architecture.
i think an architecture education is unlike any other education. it's unique and very challenging but very rewarding at the same time. unlike other majors, where learning comes more from reading and taking in information, i think architecture is more a socrates style of education, where you learn by doing and learn through experience. there are pretty much no boundaries in architecture school. they encourage you to do what you want to do (for the most part)..whereas in engineering or science, you are bounded to certain rules that you have to abide by.
architecture school is tough and takes many hours but I would rather stay in studio working all night rather than doing homework and studying for an exam.
Posted in the news section a day or two ago was an amusing article in the yale newspaper about the life of an undergrad in architecture at a liberal arts college and the pros and cons vs a barch, I highly recommend you and your son read it
Sorry....just thought I'd throw in another comment. If your son is pretty set on studying architecture, you should def. let him do it.
If I were a parent, my fear of sending a student to a place like RISD would be the lack of other lib-ed classes that are taught in a rigorous manner and taken seriously - not that providence isn't a diverse place, but just be aware that in allowing your son to attend, he might not be exposed to other aspects of education that (in my opinon) are criotical to the development of a well rounded individual / architect.
or as long as everyone is doing long posts and for the benifit of future readers, here it is
Learning to love archi-torture
EASHA ANAND
They file in with coffee, this Wednesday night. With Starbucks cupholders and Atticus bags. With laptops and headphones, stopping to check out viciously markered posters and notes from TAs. Corner of York and Chapel, up seven flights, past the grad students with their balsa wood and foam core, through The Pit, now a museum encasing posters recently rendered obsolete by a professor's criticism.
By 10 p.m., a half dozen senior architecture majors are in the undergraduate studio of the A&A building, clustered, mostly, around open RhinoCAD windows at a computer terminal.
Before 2 p.m. the next day, one or two more will have trickled in.
At 2 p.m. the next day, Steven Harris, architecture professor and senior design studio leader, will collect their disks, each with a 24x36-inch poster, formatted and oriented correctly, and FedEx them to California.
It is the last night of the senior design studio, a project for which these Yalies have traveled to the West Coast -- "not California like beaches and palm trees," Adrian Coleman '06 clarifies, "California like a shithole off Route 99" -- and interviewed truckers, researched alternative energy and fudged their way through funding applications. This senior project -- to design a "green" rest stop for an architecture competition -- has absorbed nearly every waking hour of every senior architecture major in the design track for days now.
"It is judgment day, my friend!" Tory Wolcott '06 says, glassy eyes fixed to PC screen, covering the remaining white in her rendering with asphalt texture, all autopilot fingers and caffeine-twitch knees.
"This is bad," Coleman says, glancing back at the sheaf of paintings covering his work bench, empty Red Bull as a paperweight. "I'm tired, and it's only 10:30."
"I want to jump off this building," Frances Edelman '06 says.
They laugh. Tiredly.
Marketable but masochistic?
Yesterday, the seniors effectively graduated, dropping off images perfected with a semester's worth of late nights and a locker's worth of bent up models, having worked, if not 24 hours straight, then 24 hours minus a nap and a hot shower. And three weeks from now, a new crop of masochists will vie to hunch over the same computers in the same concrete bunker, as the Class of 2008 submits its portfolios for admission to the architecture major.
Why? Why change your lifestyle, your schedule and even your friendships in a way that no other major would expect you to?
The architecture major is caught somewhere in the no man's land between the School of Architecture, which funds the major, and Yale College, which supplies the warm bodies to complete it. It's an odd major for Yale to offer: Harvard, for instance, doesn't do it -- Cantabs don't believe in letting their undergraduates major in anything offered at their professional schools, according to Geri Nederhoff, director of admissions for the Harvard Graduate School of Design.
Undergraduate architecture programs are typically five-year, licensing Bachelor of Architecture programs. Can a discipline as pre-professional, marketable and, yes, practical as the architecture major ever fit comfortably into Yale's much-touted liberal arts framework?
Truck-stop schemes
The undergraduate section of the seventh floor of the Art & Architecture building is something of a symbolist's wet dream. Crammed like a catty-corner afterthought into a graduate studio, the 50 desks, one for each junior and senior in the architecture major, look like 50 neatly arrayed landfills from afar. Under each desk is what Wolcott calls the model graveyard: Skeletal remnants of toothpick dioramas, expired cardboard buildings with roofs trampled underfoot, little fossilized cutouts of human figures, used for scale's sake in all models.
And unfurling his own rest stop designs -- painted, because he was almost an art major, and depicting a building made of shredded tires, because an artificial topography ought to be derived from the refuse of what it's contouring -- Coleman surveys the studio.
"The strength of the Yale architecture program is not our technical skills," he said. "Yale teaches you how to think outside the box. Our strength is how outlandish all these projects are."
The Yale students' entries have historically been strong: Last year, when his seniors entered a competition to design a pedestrian border crossing between Texas and Mexico, three out of the top six prizes went to Yalies, Harris said.
And this year, they certainly are outlandish. One project projects the rest stop onto the sides of moving trucks; another is inspired by trucker sex. Wolcott overlaid the surrounding agricultural region onto her rest stop, blending the agricultural and automotive. Edelman had reeds filtering the water in her rest stop, so that 18-wheelers could be framed by natural cleansing processes.
Classmates and kegstands
Yale's architecture majors are, across the board, hip. There is a high density of emo glasses and blazers and skinny pants in the A&A building. They are (ironically) unspeakably eloquent, waxing lyrical about form and function. They are fond of coffee: Within one block of the A&A building, there are four coffee shops, at least two of which are effectively kept alive by A&A business.
Hoping to join their ranks are the sophomore neophytes, such as Alexander Sassaroli '08 and Alexander Newman-Wise '08. Newman-Wise said the architecture major "feels more authentic"; his design project for "Intro. to Architecture," one of three prerequisites to applying for the major, was a lampshade, which absorbed more of his energy than any other assignment he's ever done. Sassaroli liked that he was forced to come up with a completely different way of thinking about each project.
The application process is competitive, but the applicant pool tends to be self-selecting, students said. Director of Undergraduate Studies Sophia Gruzdys would not comment on the major's selectivity, since it varies from year to year. But last year, architecture major Henry Chan '07 said, almost everyone who wanted to be in the major wound up in it, though they could not always choose the track within the major -- design, history and theory, or urban planning -- they wanted.
Applicants and majors alike agree that the communal spirit of the tiny program -- spending 50 hours a week in the same building as all your classmates, 6 on 7 (6 p.m. on the seventh floor) kegstands with TAs, days-long road trips with a senior faculty member -- is its primary attraction.
Everything but architecture
A line from Saul Steinberg, illustrator and architecture school graduate, courtesy of Deborah Gans, who teaches both Yale's junior design studio and at the Pratt Institute School of Architecture: "Architecture is the best education for everything but architecture." By that, Gans said, Steinberg meant that being an architect is like learning to drive: The learning that matters takes place after you get your license to hit the road.
Though Gruzdys insists that the difference between a B.Arch. and a B.A. only matters for "the first 10 years" and that it's "the next 30 that count," there is a measurable difference between the two types of degree. As an undergraduate at Cooper Union, for instance, Sean Khorsandi ARCH '06, an architecture TA, was exposed to around 15 times as much studio time as Yale students are.
But if Yale is failing to adequately prepare would-be Roarks for the real world, it's not exactly clear how or why.
One of Khorsandi's gripes with Yale architecture, for instance, is that students learn to go from concept to CAD (computer-assisted design) to cutter with little in between. In the time crunch, something is lost.
Dean Robert Stern makes a point of taking architecture students out for hors d'oeuvres, for a meal at the Union League or for a drink at his loft. The point, besides building community?
"The business happens on napkins or on the flip sides of menus," Khorsandi said. "It's important to be able to sketch your thoughts with a few clean lines, without having to pull out blueprints."
Coleman and Wolcott, by contrast, think that Yale doesn't put nearly enough emphasis on technology.
"You just kind of have to pick up computer skills as you go along; they're not really taught," Coleman said. "It hurts in the job market to not have those skills."
Brain slice of an architect
Mei-Lun Xue's '07 first experience in the job market was with a design company in Shanghai last summer. Though she readily admits to having "nowhere near the same level of facility" as her counterparts working toward B.Arch. degrees, her "Yale bias" wants to believe she still has an advantage.
"There is more to architecture than a process," she said. "It is as important to have a rich background to draw from. The basic process -- what you become good at in a B.Arch. program -- can be subcontracted out, but a creative person is irreproducible."
Not only does a liberal arts education make architecture majors better architects, they say; an architecture major makes them better at everything else they do. Chan will be applying to medical school next year. Sassaroli doesn't rule out going to law school. And Newman-Wise wants to move to Los Angeles and act.
"Yale approaches architecture as a way of thinking," Harris said. "Aspects of it are quantifiable: How long, how tall, will it fit. But it also reflects the intellectual life of the mind, and this duality makes it a very interesting discipline from a liberal arts point of view."
In the end, Gans said, Yale offers something of a "section" with regards to architecture. A section, in building lingo, apparently refers to a slice of a building, something akin to a neurosurgeon's brain slice.
"In that section, you can learn an incredible amount," Gans said. "But you know that it is not the whole building, and that there are other slices you could take."
No one is ever finished
The intellectual slices they examine in architecture classes, all of the majors agree, are different in a number of fundamental ways from their other classes.
For one thing, Khorsandi said, an architecture project is never actually finished.
"When you're writing a paper, you'll write your 10-12 pages, then hit print and maybe flip on 'Conan O'Brian'," he said. "With an architecture project, you'll get to a stopping point and have to keep rethinking all the steps. No one is ever finished."
For another, there's no way to Dean's Excuse your way out of a final crit if you get food poisoning.
"I'm sure there's technically a way to do it, but our jurors are like …"
"Flown in from Dubai?" Peter Feigenbaum '06 interrupts.
"… Well, at least from Manhattan, and so there is no makeup," Wolcott finishes.
On the flip side, working in the same building as your TA can come in handy.
"Imagine being able to ask your TA a question about your paper at 3 the day it is due," Coleman said.
The biggest difference between an architecture final project and, say, a history seminar's 15-pager, is this: "If I spend 24 hours just on polishing a paper, it'd be a goddamn good paper!" Xue said. "That won't even give me an A here."
The unattainable A
A's are remarkably -- and, seniors say, unjustly -- hard to come by in the architecture major.
"Come midterms week at Yale, everyone's like 'I have 109 papers'; 'Yeah? Well, I have 25 midterms!'" Wolcott said. "But I do put more work in than other people, and the highest grade anyone can get is an A-. All our other grades suffer because we spend all our time here."
The grading system is especially hard to stomach because it routinely comes with the sort of subjective vitriol that is not common in other majors. Wolcott describes architecture crits as "brutal" -- "You had better be strong, because you will be torn apart." Julie Andress '07 said that, as with most artistic disciplines, the subjective nature of the architecture major renders the process particularly exasperating.
"If the professor does not agree with your ideas about aesthetics, the major can be frustrating," Julie Andress '07 said.
Architecture also tends to leave its students struggling to cover the cost of trips to survey sites and pounds of material needed for each project.
"Regrettably, [the School of Architecture] can't offer any kind of financial support," Gruzdys said. "We would love Yale College's support on that front."
Yale's School of Architecture has state-of-the-art facilities, recently renovated and due for another update next year: A woodshop to die for, a waterjet cutter that can slice through two inches of concrete, brand new software. But graduate students, who are, after all, in the premiere graduate architecture program in the country, have first dibs, Xue said.
In the end, Aleksandr Bierig '06 wrote in an e-mail, the architecture major is neither here nor there with regards to the Yale University framework.
"Not quite in Yale College, not quite in the grad school," Bierig wrote. "As within the liberal arts education, as in social situations, we fit awkwardly."
At the end of the night
"This project kind of blows chunks," Coleman says, attaching a polygonal human figure to a motorcycle in a 3-D computer image of his rest-stop project.
"I would not be able to stay up like this for a paper, though," Edelman replies.
"But it's weird telling people, 'I'm designing a rest stop,' when they're like, 'I'm discussing the paradoxical paradigm of post-structuralist Marxist theory,'" Feigenbaum says, blinking behind thick glasses as the restarting computer screen blinks back.
"Yeah, but they're regurgitating something someone else did 15 years ago," Coleman says. "At least we know we're doing something new."
I'll add a bit more personal RISD experience (I did my undergrad there in interior architecture). Although it's an art school they do require a decent number of liberal arts credits in language arts, art history, and history. However, because of the demanding schedule (like any architecture program) students in arch tend to spend much less time on these classes than they would if they were at a liberal arts college or even if they were in a different major at risd. The painters and illustration majors I knew, for instance, always seemed to have more free time than I did.
The freshman foundation courses give students a pretty solid introduction to art and design and expose undergrads to a large mix of people. The undergrads at risd seem to be more connected to people outside of their discipline than grad students because of this experience. Another opportunity for exploring disciplines outside of architecture is the winter session, a month long semester in January/February. Traditionally students take courses outside of their major or go on travel studios, both of which are great opportunities.
However, that being said, I still think it's useful to come to architecture from a different background. Personally, I studied sociology at a libarts school before finishing my degree at RISD and continuing on to arch grad school. Sure, you can never start too early, but I'm not sure it's the best use of a 18-20yr old kid's time to sit in class and learn about HVAC and acoustics-- things which you will be forced to endure in addition to all the wonderful studios.
In my opinion, the best thing about RISD ugrad for architecture is that if you decide architecture isn't right there are plenty of other great programs at the school which you can switch into.
I'm amazed that nobody's mentioned this yet, but there is an RISD student doing a school blog here. that might be worth checking out, or emailing to chat with.
I can't help but mention my discretion of the comparsion with an arch education to any other education and claim it's much more intense, unique, and rewarding. I spent a good portion of my education in the science field - the last couple years of my undergrad, i've worked immensely with grad students who were in med and pharm school & seen how different it is with undergrad studies but not any different with an arch education in the level of intensity, uniqueness, and rewarding. Of course this is all revelant in what is rewarding, unique, etc - ie. saving lives is rewarding.
Grad school tend to be more practical than undergrad where you learn the basis of working with direct experiences and active involvements. Health studies is not easy and probably just as stressful when students are going through a few days without sleep studying for their life or working in 30+ hour shifts.
Please do not make such a comparison with an arch education to other types of education without doing your reseearch.
Like many have suggested, I strongly advise your son to be exposed with different areas of studies. It not only will make him a more well-rounded person, he might discover his other interests and become more appreciative with not just in architecture. I developed a hobby in reading and keeping up with medical researches/journals but decided to focus pursuing a profession in architecture.
i went to risd for two years, entering for a major in fine arts but switching to architecture mid freshman year.
you do realize that the first year foundation studies is an intense introduction to all basics of design.. it helped a lot to have that experience, and makes easier the transition from high school to barch.
there are also many foreign program opportunities. last winter i studied photography in paris for a month, and the following summer i took a design studio in china led by peter tiaguri, the head of the arch progrm.
the studio space is wonderfull, the shop is not so bad, providence is safe and rent is relatively cheap. there is also a mixture of undergrad and grad in first year design studio which creates a higher level of competition and usually generates better projects.
i transferred for personal and financial reasons but do not regret the time spent there.
and it is far from too conceptual; i learned how to mix concrete first semester, buit pneumatic structures 1:1 scale, and they do many projects which end in an inhabitable space.
Seriously. My wonder-dad blew half a mil on landscapping his dying ranch. Now he's damn near 70, living on welfare, and I'm looking at 60k in loans over the next few years...
Really sick part is, he married into the money from my mother's side.
back onto point...I'm curious what tally isham is making of all this...
also, I, personally, never meant to express the unique difficulty of undergrad architecture - relative to other majors - only that it is a unique and capable format for developing critical abilities and analytical skills...
I dont' think architecture is necessarily as mentally challenging, as say, a physics major, but I do think we work longer hours than just about anyone on campus (possibly with the exception of the Med school).
Difficulty is all relative. I couldn't stay up all night memorizing latin phrases to save my life (or anyone elses, for that matter), but if I've got a design I love I'll not sleep to that model is perfect.
I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful, intelligent and enlightening posts in response to my questions. I am most grateful for your insights, and hope that this thread will continue over the next few days. Of course, now we're more confused than before, in a good way that comes from being on the receiving end of all this new information. As a parent, I am nervous about the workload/drop out rate issue, although my son did the RISD Precollege this past summer (not in arch) so he's had a small taste of a crazy workload, albeit probably not anywhere near that of a real arch major. Also, the whole B.Arch vs. M.Arch discussion is something we'll have to mull over. We already were aware that being an architect is not going to make most folks wealthy, but son said that he'd rather be happy doing something he likes than being miserable and rich doing something he detests. Spoken like someone who has never had to pay for college for two teenagers, right? Anyway, please keep posting anything that comes to mind that you think might be helpful. We are most grateful for your input, and who knows, maybe this thread will be googled many times in the future by confused parents and their aspiring architect children!
"Arch. grades are highly subjective and many schools intentionally depress the grades in order to scare students into working extremely hard."
"Clearly, based on assertions of architecture being unique in its level of undergrade difficulty, no one here was a physics major..."
Several years of studies by ETS concur that the single subject area where grades are most consistent is the AP exam in studio art. The least consistent? Physics.
My parents really didnt get very involved in the selecting of my major... i was very lucky in that i have loved my B.Arch schooling (which im 4 weeks from completing)... So the fact your going to know all this is very important. When i was your sons age a few years ago i was sure i knew what i was doing, and didnt do nearly enough research, i dont think 17-18 year olds have enough forsight to really make sure they are making a good choice as this is going to be his most important to date (im guessing) so definetly stay involved no matter how annoyed your son may get with you about knowing as much if not more than he (i had several altercations with my dad about this issue, he convinced me to avoid engineering and im very glad he did)
that being said...
rationalists post well up the board is very true. My B.Arch not only allows me to get licensed after 5 years, but it means i dont need to do the 2 year M.Arch. I plan on going to grad school in a year, and am taking a year off to work. This way, i can better see what i REALLY want to do. That might be anything, business, planning, comparative literature, Music... whatever i want... thats a HUGE benefit to the B.Arch Programs
I just caught something Bloopox said in the first post on here: Many schools have "phased out" their B.Arch programs entirely, and a recent AIA survey of employers showed that 40% of employers offer higher startting salaries to M.Arch grads than B.Archs, and that many employers expressed a preference for hiring M.Archs.
a) Many schools have "phased out" their B.Arch programs? Who might this be? Maybe I am out of the loop but I don't know of any. I know of some schools (like Tulane) petitioning to grant their B.Arch programs Master's status, but this would lend more weight to the B.Arch rather than take away from it as you are definitely insinuating. Please source your statement? I am curious.
b) Please reference that survey. In my experience I am paid typically equal to (and sometimes more than, due to more years of experience) M.Archs at the firms I've worked at. Since I am on my 6th firm I'd say I have decent experience with this. Every employer I have spoken to has said the same thing: some M.Arch employees are good, some B.Arch employees are good, you never know, and they don't use it in their decision making. Both are in the same position professionally when entering the workforce (ie, beginning of IDP), both start at the same level. Many large firms reflect this in their salary and hiring structure. I would be interested to see your reference.
Apr 18, 06 7:09 pm ·
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Son was accepted to RISD (BArch)...need opinions
RISD is expensive, but is it worth the $$? How's the program/education? Does a RISD degree help to "open doors" for internships? Is RISD a nationally known school? We're just the parents, we don't know much about architecture, but we have to come up with the cash, so need to be involved in this decision. Thanks for any help/guidance you can give us.
RISD is known nationally and internationally as a top design school. In the US it is one of the top two or three of this type of program.
RISD has great facilities, an excellent career center, etc. Finding internships would not be a problem.
But that having been said - and having attended a similar design school myself - at this point I question the wisdom of choosing a design school rather than a more broad liberal arts program as an undergraduate.
Design schools are extremely intense, time-consuming programs. There is very little room in the curriculum for coursework in other areas - generally only a minimum of liberal arts courses are required and many of these are in history of art, architecture, etc. RISD has an exchange program with Brown, so the problem is not the availability of course offerings, great libraries, etc., but it is very difficult to schedule around the required architecture curriculum.
It's also hard to find time to do many other things outside of the architecture studio. One of my regrets about my undergrad experience is that I didn't have the usual range of extracurricular activities that are part of a more traditional college education.
I would have no concerns at all about the quality of design education at RISD or about your son's employability
.
However, some other things to consider are that B.Arch programs in general have a very high drop-out rate - I don't know RISD's statistics on this but many schools graduate only about half of those who start the major. It's possible that your son will decide at some point that architecture isn't what he thought it was (not an uncommon realization.) Of course this can happen in any major and at any school - but a person with an intensive design major who decides to switch to another design major or to a more academic field will often find that at least one additional year is required to catch up with the course requirements, etc.
These days there are more Master of Architecture programs than Bachelor of Architecture programs. Many schools have "phased out" their B.Arch programs entirely, and a recent AIA survey of employers showed that 40% of employers offer higher startting salaries to M.Arch grads than B.Archs, and that many employers expressed a preference for hiring M.Archs.
With a B.Arch your son could go on to do a "post professiona" 1- to 2-year M.Arch if he chose to do so - though it would not be an absolute necessity. But: "first professional" M.Arch programs currently graduate about the same number of students each year in the US as do B.Arch programs and these are the people your son would be competing with for entry-level jobs.
First-professional M.Arch programs take 2.5 to 3.5 years and are open to people from all undergrad fields of study (meaning people who studied everything from biology to music to art as undergrads are on equal footing for acceptance purposes.) So, if your son has any other interests I might encourage him to consider getting a broader undergrad education now and consider grad school later, rather than jump into design school at this point.
But this is just my opinion and others will tell you otherwise. The 5-year B.Arch is of course the fastest route to a professional degree - so possibly the most economical in the short-term.
Make sure that you and your son have realistic expectations about this profession. Entry-level salaries in the US range from 28k to 42k in various regions of the US but average 35k. It is often difficult to move beyond the mid-40k range without getting licensed. The licensing process usually takes a minimum of 3 to 4 years after graduation but currently averages 7.5 years. The average architect in the US with 15 years of professional experience makes 75k. RISD is currently in the top 10 "most expensive" schools in the US. Is it worth it? Only you and your son can really decide that.
, that post should be emailed to every parent of a prospective architecture student in the country, regardless of school. Well put.
"So, if your son has any other interests I might encourage him to consider getting a broader undergrad education now and consider grad school later, rather than jump into design school at this point."
YES! I couldn't emphasize this point more! I received a B.A. (a Liberal Arts degree) in Architecture from a state university in the Midwest. I'm currently a Masters student at an ivy on the east coast.
If your son really wants to become an architect, the best thing he could do is get an undergraduate degree in a different discipline and study architecture during graduate school. Odds are he'll want to get a masters after school (better pay, etc.) so it is probably best if he spends his time learning about something seemingly unrelated (philosophy, physics, english, art history, cultural studies, history) that will develop his skills as a thinker - art or architecture classes on the side can help him with his skills as a "maker" and the portfolio for graduate school.
By the time he is done with a degree in english (what I would have studied if I could go back and do it all over again) he'll be smarter and more articulate than half of his graduate school classmates who have spent the past however many years of their life cutting chipboard... In addition, he'll be able to bring a unique way of seeing and understanding architecture (as a result of studying something else), which always seems to result in some of the most interesting architecture in the end. Graduate schools in Architecture love students that have studied something else. As someone who studied architecture, I couldn't be more thankful for my exposure to those who did not study architecture as an undergraduate student.
As far as I am concerned, undergraduate degrees in architecture are a BAD idea. (Probably the reason places like Harvard don't offer such a degree in the first place...)
Just to continue marketfair's statement, most graduate schools of architecture admit a hefty percentage of each class from non-arch backgrounds. The GSD (harvard), for instance, tends to have an incoming class which is split about 50/50 between those with previous architecture experience and those without. I mention this to allay any fears that not studying architecture as an undergraduate will hurt your chances of getting into grad schools later on.
The salary question is a primary concern and should be explained to every student and parent. For many of us, we were under the misconception (as most of society is) that architects make a lot of money. They don't, plain and simple.
Many of us, myself included have a very solid education (4 year undergrad from UF in arch, 3 year Master from UCLA, both highly respected) and have chosen to leave the traditional path in architecture due to financial concerns (as well as professional concerns, but that's not worth getting into here). To the point, I owe a ton of money and could not be happy struggling. This is not to say that I am not trying to build my designs, just that I am not working in an architect's office, slowly working my way up - I've decided to take matters in my own hands, so to speak.
Personally, I could not imagine having an education in something else. I love it and it's what I am good at. However, I do wish I had looked at alternatives like I mention below, instead of just getting two degrees in architecture.
Obviously, your son has talent. RISD is a highly respected school, albeit not as respected in architecture as it is for art and design.
(I actually went to RISD for a summer Intro to Architecture program. I highly recommend it. I had a wonderful time and was quickly introduced to working nonstop and eventually pulling several all nighters - a great sample tasting of what the entire education will be)
If your son decides that this is a passion, and it must be to make it through it all, not just something he likes or is interested in, then I would say get a bach in it.
I would suggest either getting the a BArch, then a business degree, or a business degree and a MArch. However, I think, and this is just a guess, that having a BArch and an MBA would go farther than an undergrad biz degree and a MArch.
If you are concerned about money, I would suggest he think about getting a master degree in something profitable, such as the MBA or consider getting an MBA with a focus in Real Estate/Construction Management. There are several schools that offer this (Columbia is the first that comes to mind, but it's extremely expensive - I think $120k).
To get into a top MBA program, as with architecture (for grad, at least), is extremely competitive. Just things to be aware of.
Last note, tip o' the hat to ya for looking into things. I wish these resources were available when I was making decisions.
Ask every question that you come up with. Folks on here will help out. We're an opinionated, somewhat cynical but somehow still blindly optimistic bunch, so take some of this as simply one persons view.
Good luck.
before it seems like a unanimous opinion, i'd counter that entering architecture school as a freshman and continuing through the program (assuming your son sticks with it) is no less a good path than the starting-in-liberal-arts path described above.
i also went to a very expensive first professional degree program - in my case financed a lot by scholarships, student loans which i've finally retired, and work study - and i don't regret a penny. i've visited risd and found it to be a great facility, with a great faculty and a wonderfully well-rounded program. and, as noted above, it IS nationally recognized for it.
if your son has already been accepted to risd, going as a freshman should be a great experience for him. it will be transformative - having a tremendous impact in the formation of his values and interests in a way that a liberal arts education may not. one of the primary things that students get in architecture school that they don't get elsewhere is introduction to critical thinking (esp. a skill at self-critique) and spatial thinking. this can never happen too early, imo.
I will respond from the other side of the fence:
After high school, I spent 2 years at a state university studying humanities etc. After receiving an AA, I swithced to another state university to study architecture. The architecture degree that I received is a four year, pre-professional degree. In order to become licensed, I will have to attend graduate school (M.Arch 1).
Having spent the majority of my undergraduate career studying architecture, I found the experience extremely fulfilling, and recommend it to any young mind. Students from my undergrad class have gone on to do a number of things not directly related to the architectural profession. Our education provided us with analytical skills, making us critical thinkers who address our environments and practices more thoughtfully than many of our contemporaries from other fields of study.
I take exception to marketfair's statement that: if one were to study something other than architecture during undergrad, they would be smarter and more articulate than half of [their] graduate school classmates who have spent the past however many years of their life cutting chipboard. I only call this statement out to express that his/her experience is contrary to my own.
Everyone's comments have been helpful, though. Just sharing a different point of view...
yes, Steven Ward, that's what I'm trying to say.
I would also throw in this consideration regarding the B.Arch- If you get a B.Arch, there is no need for an M.Arch, and he has more options for grad school, including (but not limited to) Urban Design, Planning, Environmental Design, Landscape, etc. with would allow him to explore something else later, when he is more capable of making a choice about what *specifically* interests him. If he went somewhere that had a four year program, then for licensing purposes he would most likely be constrained to getting that professional M.Arch, and not necessarily have a chance to do that intense exploration. It's really a choice between exploring other topics casually as an undergrad, or intensively as a grad student.
If you've already made the decision that a B.Arch is the way to go, then be assured that RISD is well known to be a quality program.
Thank you, Steven.
If your son loves architecture, or thinks he will, and wants to get into it, by all means, encourage him to follow a BArch program. If it is too intense for him he can always switch into design or art and pursure architecture at the Master's level.
I would like to put my two cents in, however, that nothing in the world of architectural education can replace the value of good studio classes, and if you want to learn architecture, you cannot skimp on studio courses. A BArch will require 10 studios, an MArch is typically 6. In my opinion this is a shame for those who pursue only MArch's in architecture, for they are getting skimped on the most important aspect of the education process. (There are other benefits to an MArch, of course, and I feel those have been addressed by others above.)
A BArch is also the shortest route to the profession and can be cheaper than an undergrad + MArch combo (depending on your son's choice of schools).
RISD enjoys an excellent reputation and is known generally as being a free-thinking, creative school (within the context of other arch. schools). Getting a job out of school is not generally a problem in recent years but seems to depend more on market fluctations and location than in the name of your school.
The BArch is extremely difficult and intense; most schools have a high dropout rate in the program. Your son should know that going in, and please, as parents, try not to put any pressure on him grades-wise. Arch. grades are highly subjective and many schools intentionally depress the grades in order to scare students into working extremely hard. Your son will come home at semester breaks looking absolutely dead exhausted, mentally fatigued, etc. You will be horrified at the stories he tells you about what his professors say to the students during critiques. You will want to fly out to the school personally and give his professors a dressing down, at least once in your child's arch. school career. Trust me on this one.
But it's also an amazing education. He'll learn so much, not just about architecture but about ways to think about the world, about many other disciplines, about how to work hard, etcetera. If he thinks he'll like it, please encourage him to try for it. If he struggles, tell him it's ok to struggle, and to just try his hardest, as long as he enjoys it keep on going! If he really starts to hate it, it's ok, he can transfer out and it won't affect his professional life. He can always pick it up again later.
...that's about all my many cents. Good luck.
The comments are all on target, but I would add a bit about RISD itself. I spent a year there, and left because I felt the program was too heavy on the conceptual design without enough emphasis on the fundamentals of architecture. Having said that, if I had done my undergrad in architecture I think RISD would have been a great place to push my design skills and question my understanding of architecture. If your son is set on a B.Arch at RISD, my advice would be to plan on attending an M.Arch program that will teach him how to translate conceptual design into architecture.
As for internships and work after school, as I was deciding to leave I met with a career councilor at RISD. He told me that a lot of firms look for RISD grads that have been working for a couple years, but are hesitant to hire them directly out of school, because they feel they 'have their head in the clouds' and don't understand what it actually takes to put a building together.
I don't mean to bash RISD. It is a good program, and my experience was several years ago. And as far as student loans go, what better investment than education. And a B.Arch at RISD will expose your son to a world of possibilities outside of traditional architecture.
i think an architecture education is unlike any other education. it's unique and very challenging but very rewarding at the same time. unlike other majors, where learning comes more from reading and taking in information, i think architecture is more a socrates style of education, where you learn by doing and learn through experience. there are pretty much no boundaries in architecture school. they encourage you to do what you want to do (for the most part)..whereas in engineering or science, you are bounded to certain rules that you have to abide by.
architecture school is tough and takes many hours but I would rather stay in studio working all night rather than doing homework and studying for an exam.
Posted in the news section a day or two ago was an amusing article in the yale newspaper about the life of an undergrad in architecture at a liberal arts college and the pros and cons vs a barch, I highly recommend you and your son read it
Sorry....just thought I'd throw in another comment. If your son is pretty set on studying architecture, you should def. let him do it.
If I were a parent, my fear of sending a student to a place like RISD would be the lack of other lib-ed classes that are taught in a rigorous manner and taken seriously - not that providence isn't a diverse place, but just be aware that in allowing your son to attend, he might not be exposed to other aspects of education that (in my opinon) are criotical to the development of a well rounded individual / architect.
or as long as everyone is doing long posts and for the benifit of future readers, here it is
Learning to love archi-torture
EASHA ANAND
They file in with coffee, this Wednesday night. With Starbucks cupholders and Atticus bags. With laptops and headphones, stopping to check out viciously markered posters and notes from TAs. Corner of York and Chapel, up seven flights, past the grad students with their balsa wood and foam core, through The Pit, now a museum encasing posters recently rendered obsolete by a professor's criticism.
By 10 p.m., a half dozen senior architecture majors are in the undergraduate studio of the A&A building, clustered, mostly, around open RhinoCAD windows at a computer terminal.
Before 2 p.m. the next day, one or two more will have trickled in.
At 2 p.m. the next day, Steven Harris, architecture professor and senior design studio leader, will collect their disks, each with a 24x36-inch poster, formatted and oriented correctly, and FedEx them to California.
It is the last night of the senior design studio, a project for which these Yalies have traveled to the West Coast -- "not California like beaches and palm trees," Adrian Coleman '06 clarifies, "California like a shithole off Route 99" -- and interviewed truckers, researched alternative energy and fudged their way through funding applications. This senior project -- to design a "green" rest stop for an architecture competition -- has absorbed nearly every waking hour of every senior architecture major in the design track for days now.
"It is judgment day, my friend!" Tory Wolcott '06 says, glassy eyes fixed to PC screen, covering the remaining white in her rendering with asphalt texture, all autopilot fingers and caffeine-twitch knees.
"This is bad," Coleman says, glancing back at the sheaf of paintings covering his work bench, empty Red Bull as a paperweight. "I'm tired, and it's only 10:30."
"I want to jump off this building," Frances Edelman '06 says.
They laugh. Tiredly.
Marketable but masochistic?
Yesterday, the seniors effectively graduated, dropping off images perfected with a semester's worth of late nights and a locker's worth of bent up models, having worked, if not 24 hours straight, then 24 hours minus a nap and a hot shower. And three weeks from now, a new crop of masochists will vie to hunch over the same computers in the same concrete bunker, as the Class of 2008 submits its portfolios for admission to the architecture major.
Why? Why change your lifestyle, your schedule and even your friendships in a way that no other major would expect you to?
The architecture major is caught somewhere in the no man's land between the School of Architecture, which funds the major, and Yale College, which supplies the warm bodies to complete it. It's an odd major for Yale to offer: Harvard, for instance, doesn't do it -- Cantabs don't believe in letting their undergraduates major in anything offered at their professional schools, according to Geri Nederhoff, director of admissions for the Harvard Graduate School of Design.
Undergraduate architecture programs are typically five-year, licensing Bachelor of Architecture programs. Can a discipline as pre-professional, marketable and, yes, practical as the architecture major ever fit comfortably into Yale's much-touted liberal arts framework?
Truck-stop schemes
The undergraduate section of the seventh floor of the Art & Architecture building is something of a symbolist's wet dream. Crammed like a catty-corner afterthought into a graduate studio, the 50 desks, one for each junior and senior in the architecture major, look like 50 neatly arrayed landfills from afar. Under each desk is what Wolcott calls the model graveyard: Skeletal remnants of toothpick dioramas, expired cardboard buildings with roofs trampled underfoot, little fossilized cutouts of human figures, used for scale's sake in all models.
And unfurling his own rest stop designs -- painted, because he was almost an art major, and depicting a building made of shredded tires, because an artificial topography ought to be derived from the refuse of what it's contouring -- Coleman surveys the studio.
"The strength of the Yale architecture program is not our technical skills," he said. "Yale teaches you how to think outside the box. Our strength is how outlandish all these projects are."
The Yale students' entries have historically been strong: Last year, when his seniors entered a competition to design a pedestrian border crossing between Texas and Mexico, three out of the top six prizes went to Yalies, Harris said.
And this year, they certainly are outlandish. One project projects the rest stop onto the sides of moving trucks; another is inspired by trucker sex. Wolcott overlaid the surrounding agricultural region onto her rest stop, blending the agricultural and automotive. Edelman had reeds filtering the water in her rest stop, so that 18-wheelers could be framed by natural cleansing processes.
Classmates and kegstands
Yale's architecture majors are, across the board, hip. There is a high density of emo glasses and blazers and skinny pants in the A&A building. They are (ironically) unspeakably eloquent, waxing lyrical about form and function. They are fond of coffee: Within one block of the A&A building, there are four coffee shops, at least two of which are effectively kept alive by A&A business.
Hoping to join their ranks are the sophomore neophytes, such as Alexander Sassaroli '08 and Alexander Newman-Wise '08. Newman-Wise said the architecture major "feels more authentic"; his design project for "Intro. to Architecture," one of three prerequisites to applying for the major, was a lampshade, which absorbed more of his energy than any other assignment he's ever done. Sassaroli liked that he was forced to come up with a completely different way of thinking about each project.
The application process is competitive, but the applicant pool tends to be self-selecting, students said. Director of Undergraduate Studies Sophia Gruzdys would not comment on the major's selectivity, since it varies from year to year. But last year, architecture major Henry Chan '07 said, almost everyone who wanted to be in the major wound up in it, though they could not always choose the track within the major -- design, history and theory, or urban planning -- they wanted.
Applicants and majors alike agree that the communal spirit of the tiny program -- spending 50 hours a week in the same building as all your classmates, 6 on 7 (6 p.m. on the seventh floor) kegstands with TAs, days-long road trips with a senior faculty member -- is its primary attraction.
Everything but architecture
A line from Saul Steinberg, illustrator and architecture school graduate, courtesy of Deborah Gans, who teaches both Yale's junior design studio and at the Pratt Institute School of Architecture: "Architecture is the best education for everything but architecture." By that, Gans said, Steinberg meant that being an architect is like learning to drive: The learning that matters takes place after you get your license to hit the road.
Though Gruzdys insists that the difference between a B.Arch. and a B.A. only matters for "the first 10 years" and that it's "the next 30 that count," there is a measurable difference between the two types of degree. As an undergraduate at Cooper Union, for instance, Sean Khorsandi ARCH '06, an architecture TA, was exposed to around 15 times as much studio time as Yale students are.
But if Yale is failing to adequately prepare would-be Roarks for the real world, it's not exactly clear how or why.
One of Khorsandi's gripes with Yale architecture, for instance, is that students learn to go from concept to CAD (computer-assisted design) to cutter with little in between. In the time crunch, something is lost.
Dean Robert Stern makes a point of taking architecture students out for hors d'oeuvres, for a meal at the Union League or for a drink at his loft. The point, besides building community?
"The business happens on napkins or on the flip sides of menus," Khorsandi said. "It's important to be able to sketch your thoughts with a few clean lines, without having to pull out blueprints."
Coleman and Wolcott, by contrast, think that Yale doesn't put nearly enough emphasis on technology.
"You just kind of have to pick up computer skills as you go along; they're not really taught," Coleman said. "It hurts in the job market to not have those skills."
Brain slice of an architect
Mei-Lun Xue's '07 first experience in the job market was with a design company in Shanghai last summer. Though she readily admits to having "nowhere near the same level of facility" as her counterparts working toward B.Arch. degrees, her "Yale bias" wants to believe she still has an advantage.
"There is more to architecture than a process," she said. "It is as important to have a rich background to draw from. The basic process -- what you become good at in a B.Arch. program -- can be subcontracted out, but a creative person is irreproducible."
Not only does a liberal arts education make architecture majors better architects, they say; an architecture major makes them better at everything else they do. Chan will be applying to medical school next year. Sassaroli doesn't rule out going to law school. And Newman-Wise wants to move to Los Angeles and act.
"Yale approaches architecture as a way of thinking," Harris said. "Aspects of it are quantifiable: How long, how tall, will it fit. But it also reflects the intellectual life of the mind, and this duality makes it a very interesting discipline from a liberal arts point of view."
In the end, Gans said, Yale offers something of a "section" with regards to architecture. A section, in building lingo, apparently refers to a slice of a building, something akin to a neurosurgeon's brain slice.
"In that section, you can learn an incredible amount," Gans said. "But you know that it is not the whole building, and that there are other slices you could take."
No one is ever finished
The intellectual slices they examine in architecture classes, all of the majors agree, are different in a number of fundamental ways from their other classes.
For one thing, Khorsandi said, an architecture project is never actually finished.
"When you're writing a paper, you'll write your 10-12 pages, then hit print and maybe flip on 'Conan O'Brian'," he said. "With an architecture project, you'll get to a stopping point and have to keep rethinking all the steps. No one is ever finished."
For another, there's no way to Dean's Excuse your way out of a final crit if you get food poisoning.
"I'm sure there's technically a way to do it, but our jurors are like …"
"Flown in from Dubai?" Peter Feigenbaum '06 interrupts.
"… Well, at least from Manhattan, and so there is no makeup," Wolcott finishes.
On the flip side, working in the same building as your TA can come in handy.
"Imagine being able to ask your TA a question about your paper at 3 the day it is due," Coleman said.
The biggest difference between an architecture final project and, say, a history seminar's 15-pager, is this: "If I spend 24 hours just on polishing a paper, it'd be a goddamn good paper!" Xue said. "That won't even give me an A here."
The unattainable A
A's are remarkably -- and, seniors say, unjustly -- hard to come by in the architecture major.
"Come midterms week at Yale, everyone's like 'I have 109 papers'; 'Yeah? Well, I have 25 midterms!'" Wolcott said. "But I do put more work in than other people, and the highest grade anyone can get is an A-. All our other grades suffer because we spend all our time here."
The grading system is especially hard to stomach because it routinely comes with the sort of subjective vitriol that is not common in other majors. Wolcott describes architecture crits as "brutal" -- "You had better be strong, because you will be torn apart." Julie Andress '07 said that, as with most artistic disciplines, the subjective nature of the architecture major renders the process particularly exasperating.
"If the professor does not agree with your ideas about aesthetics, the major can be frustrating," Julie Andress '07 said.
Architecture also tends to leave its students struggling to cover the cost of trips to survey sites and pounds of material needed for each project.
"Regrettably, [the School of Architecture] can't offer any kind of financial support," Gruzdys said. "We would love Yale College's support on that front."
Yale's School of Architecture has state-of-the-art facilities, recently renovated and due for another update next year: A woodshop to die for, a waterjet cutter that can slice through two inches of concrete, brand new software. But graduate students, who are, after all, in the premiere graduate architecture program in the country, have first dibs, Xue said.
In the end, Aleksandr Bierig '06 wrote in an e-mail, the architecture major is neither here nor there with regards to the Yale University framework.
"Not quite in Yale College, not quite in the grad school," Bierig wrote. "As within the liberal arts education, as in social situations, we fit awkwardly."
At the end of the night
"This project kind of blows chunks," Coleman says, attaching a polygonal human figure to a motorcycle in a 3-D computer image of his rest-stop project.
"I would not be able to stay up like this for a paper, though," Edelman replies.
"But it's weird telling people, 'I'm designing a rest stop,' when they're like, 'I'm discussing the paradoxical paradigm of post-structuralist Marxist theory,'" Feigenbaum says, blinking behind thick glasses as the restarting computer screen blinks back.
"Yeah, but they're regurgitating something someone else did 15 years ago," Coleman says. "At least we know we're doing something new."
No laughter this time.
I'll add a bit more personal RISD experience (I did my undergrad there in interior architecture). Although it's an art school they do require a decent number of liberal arts credits in language arts, art history, and history. However, because of the demanding schedule (like any architecture program) students in arch tend to spend much less time on these classes than they would if they were at a liberal arts college or even if they were in a different major at risd. The painters and illustration majors I knew, for instance, always seemed to have more free time than I did.
The freshman foundation courses give students a pretty solid introduction to art and design and expose undergrads to a large mix of people. The undergrads at risd seem to be more connected to people outside of their discipline than grad students because of this experience. Another opportunity for exploring disciplines outside of architecture is the winter session, a month long semester in January/February. Traditionally students take courses outside of their major or go on travel studios, both of which are great opportunities.
However, that being said, I still think it's useful to come to architecture from a different background. Personally, I studied sociology at a libarts school before finishing my degree at RISD and continuing on to arch grad school. Sure, you can never start too early, but I'm not sure it's the best use of a 18-20yr old kid's time to sit in class and learn about HVAC and acoustics-- things which you will be forced to endure in addition to all the wonderful studios.
In my opinion, the best thing about RISD ugrad for architecture is that if you decide architecture isn't right there are plenty of other great programs at the school which you can switch into.
I'm amazed that nobody's mentioned this yet, but there is an RISD student doing a school blog here. that might be worth checking out, or emailing to chat with.
I can't help but mention my discretion of the comparsion with an arch education to any other education and claim it's much more intense, unique, and rewarding. I spent a good portion of my education in the science field - the last couple years of my undergrad, i've worked immensely with grad students who were in med and pharm school & seen how different it is with undergrad studies but not any different with an arch education in the level of intensity, uniqueness, and rewarding. Of course this is all revelant in what is rewarding, unique, etc - ie. saving lives is rewarding.
Grad school tend to be more practical than undergrad where you learn the basis of working with direct experiences and active involvements. Health studies is not easy and probably just as stressful when students are going through a few days without sleep studying for their life or working in 30+ hour shifts.
Please do not make such a comparison with an arch education to other types of education without doing your reseearch.
Like many have suggested, I strongly advise your son to be exposed with different areas of studies. It not only will make him a more well-rounded person, he might discover his other interests and become more appreciative with not just in architecture. I developed a hobby in reading and keeping up with medical researches/journals but decided to focus pursuing a profession in architecture.
Clearly, based on assertions of architecture being unique in its level of undergrade difficulty, no one here was a physics major...
i went to risd for two years, entering for a major in fine arts but switching to architecture mid freshman year.
you do realize that the first year foundation studies is an intense introduction to all basics of design.. it helped a lot to have that experience, and makes easier the transition from high school to barch.
there are also many foreign program opportunities. last winter i studied photography in paris for a month, and the following summer i took a design studio in china led by peter tiaguri, the head of the arch progrm.
the studio space is wonderfull, the shop is not so bad, providence is safe and rent is relatively cheap. there is also a mixture of undergrad and grad in first year design studio which creates a higher level of competition and usually generates better projects.
i transferred for personal and financial reasons but do not regret the time spent there.
and it is far from too conceptual; i learned how to mix concrete first semester, buit pneumatic structures 1:1 scale, and they do many projects which end in an inhabitable space.
I wish i had parents like, all i see is loans in my future
this is turning out to be an interesting thread ..
Seriously. My wonder-dad blew half a mil on landscapping his dying ranch. Now he's damn near 70, living on welfare, and I'm looking at 60k in loans over the next few years...
Really sick part is, he married into the money from my mother's side.
Not that I'm bitter :)
back onto point...I'm curious what tally isham is making of all this...
also, I, personally, never meant to express the unique difficulty of undergrad architecture - relative to other majors - only that it is a unique and capable format for developing critical abilities and analytical skills...
I dont' think architecture is necessarily as mentally challenging, as say, a physics major, but I do think we work longer hours than just about anyone on campus (possibly with the exception of the Med school).
Difficulty is all relative. I couldn't stay up all night memorizing latin phrases to save my life (or anyone elses, for that matter), but if I've got a design I love I'll not sleep to that model is perfect.
I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful, intelligent and enlightening posts in response to my questions. I am most grateful for your insights, and hope that this thread will continue over the next few days. Of course, now we're more confused than before, in a good way that comes from being on the receiving end of all this new information. As a parent, I am nervous about the workload/drop out rate issue, although my son did the RISD Precollege this past summer (not in arch) so he's had a small taste of a crazy workload, albeit probably not anywhere near that of a real arch major. Also, the whole B.Arch vs. M.Arch discussion is something we'll have to mull over. We already were aware that being an architect is not going to make most folks wealthy, but son said that he'd rather be happy doing something he likes than being miserable and rich doing something he detests. Spoken like someone who has never had to pay for college for two teenagers, right? Anyway, please keep posting anything that comes to mind that you think might be helpful. We are most grateful for your input, and who knows, maybe this thread will be googled many times in the future by confused parents and their aspiring architect children!
he's lucky to have parents like you. best of luck...
"Arch. grades are highly subjective and many schools intentionally depress the grades in order to scare students into working extremely hard."
"Clearly, based on assertions of architecture being unique in its level of undergrade difficulty, no one here was a physics major..."
Several years of studies by ETS concur that the single subject area where grades are most consistent is the AP exam in studio art. The least consistent? Physics.
My parents really didnt get very involved in the selecting of my major... i was very lucky in that i have loved my B.Arch schooling (which im 4 weeks from completing)... So the fact your going to know all this is very important. When i was your sons age a few years ago i was sure i knew what i was doing, and didnt do nearly enough research, i dont think 17-18 year olds have enough forsight to really make sure they are making a good choice as this is going to be his most important to date (im guessing) so definetly stay involved no matter how annoyed your son may get with you about knowing as much if not more than he (i had several altercations with my dad about this issue, he convinced me to avoid engineering and im very glad he did)
that being said...
rationalists post well up the board is very true. My B.Arch not only allows me to get licensed after 5 years, but it means i dont need to do the 2 year M.Arch. I plan on going to grad school in a year, and am taking a year off to work. This way, i can better see what i REALLY want to do. That might be anything, business, planning, comparative literature, Music... whatever i want... thats a HUGE benefit to the B.Arch Programs
Actually it's three and you can take the exams after enrolling in IDP in some states. Unless of course you'd like to wait an extra two years. ;-)
He meant the five years of school.
thank you rationalist
hey, we're on the same page here. = ) Very similar situations.
aes....
yeah... nobody here went to johns hopkins either.
whoa whoa whoa,
I just caught something Bloopox said in the first post on here:
Many schools have "phased out" their B.Arch programs entirely, and a recent AIA survey of employers showed that 40% of employers offer higher startting salaries to M.Arch grads than B.Archs, and that many employers expressed a preference for hiring M.Archs.
a) Many schools have "phased out" their B.Arch programs? Who might this be? Maybe I am out of the loop but I don't know of any. I know of some schools (like Tulane) petitioning to grant their B.Arch programs Master's status, but this would lend more weight to the B.Arch rather than take away from it as you are definitely insinuating. Please source your statement? I am curious.
b) Please reference that survey. In my experience I am paid typically equal to (and sometimes more than, due to more years of experience) M.Archs at the firms I've worked at. Since I am on my 6th firm I'd say I have decent experience with this. Every employer I have spoken to has said the same thing: some M.Arch employees are good, some B.Arch employees are good, you never know, and they don't use it in their decision making. Both are in the same position professionally when entering the workforce (ie, beginning of IDP), both start at the same level. Many large firms reflect this in their salary and hiring structure. I would be interested to see your reference.
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