so here's something i've been pondering a lot about lately. what's more important, getting an A on my grad. project, basically by letting my idiot of a professor have it his way, or having a project i can be proud to put in my portfolio? the idiot happens to be head of the department this year and, being also my project supervisor, controls 60% of the final project grade., he told me to basically change everything i've worked on, that is because he can't process anything through his thick head. he wants an over simplified project so that it wont offend him. i've shown my work to a couple of other super brainy professors i admire and they told me to continue with it and keep everything as is, even if that involves getting into a fist fight with him. i never had this problem before since non of my other professors are that stupid, and he is, incredibly depressingly stupid!! i'm usually an A student and i already got a lousy D for the first part, lowest grade in class. don't want to compromise my work for a lousy A either, but don't know how far this prof. will go to avoid getting humiliated in crits. i've been advised by many to compromise and just get done with it already, and after that while holding my degree in one hand i'll be able to flick him the finger with the other haha. right, so should i handle this professionally or just be a spoiled brat about it - not take his bullshit? i know this sounds trivial (yeah and a bit cheesy!) but i'd definitely appreciate any suggestions/opinions.
If you have everything going for your project, you will literally learn nothing by doing your professors project. Do your project, fight with it. Best Architects are rarely good "students".
except for zaha hadid who was a very good student.
rem even wrote on her transcript that he thought she was exceptional (not kidding).
dunno, any chance he has a point when he is critiquing the work? if not and you got a good design then go for it and do your thang. but it would be more impressive if you could get good grades and do your own project too....
thanks guys. yeah i think so too jump, might be bit of a nerd that way. i am fairly stubborn to be honest, however i do usually listen and bend my designs to meet each professor’s criteria. but this guy.. his idea of a good design is basically a good layout of well calculated programme “boxes†on plan with a quick fix for ventilation/ lighting “issuesâ€. can’t even talk with him without getting the urge to jump out of the nearest window. i do remain seriously polite though, that should earn me extra grades no?
can you satisfy his criteria while still holding on to what you've got? you don't have to talk about those other/more compelling ideas with him. maybe tell him the things that interest him and keep the good stuff in your hip pocket for other reviewers, portfolio, and posterity?
sure, this'll take some additional work on your part because the things in which he's interested will take some number-crunching and detailed space planning > left brain stuff. but this is what this particular professor can teach you - you owe it to yourself to learn from every professor you encounter and it's good to have a facility with these more mundane aspects of what we do.
when you have a client this comes up again and again: you find it hard to sell your best ideas if you haven't really nailed the more mundane technical, planning, structural, and function questions.
yeah i guess this would be reasonable. i'm willing to work the extra bits if this would satisfy him, though i think he still might get "confused" on jury days if i mention the main bits! ah well, at least would've done my chores. this definitely would be useful later on, like dealing with seriously defective clients. haha yeah can't help but sound bitter about it.
Steven has a good point, take this experience as a learning step into your future career, you will encounter people, bosses, client that care about fulfilling their requirements and might not share the same vision as you do at this point in time, it’s essential that you built on their interest without selling your ideas and process short of your expectations. Go the extra mile to make then understand that you have given careful consideration to their concern and input. Part of being a good architect is to able to work the crowd at hand, if you have ever seen the big “Wigs†in action, you know what I am talking about it.
Steven Ward as always has excellent advice. If you can, try to selfishly take whatever of value the professor has to offer, while at the same time selfishly hang on to your own ideas about what is important in the project. Your education is about your own development, so trying to learn from every situation is important. At the same time, you want to do work that you feel good about. It's hard to find a happy medium, and the risk is that you either end up with a project that makes neither of you happy...or makes both of you happy! With three more months to work on it, though, it seems like there is enough time to try to achieve a project that is ultimately educational for you as well as one you like. Good luck.
my own similar experience - prof was actually a bright guy, and a great instructor for the first half of the semester. Then, he got caught up in some "thought provoking" work with his practice (that was 1000 miles away) and completely zoned out in regards to the studio for the rest of the semester. Desk crits were murder, it was like we were speaking different languages. He would mumble pat cliche's without even looking at anybody's work. I got really, really bitter ("I'm fsking paying for THIS?!?!?"), and started to more or less try to piss him off, which more or less worked.
grade wise, I had an A/A- on my midterm report, that went to a B for the class because he caught on that I was obviously being antagonistic.
leaving the anger and bitterness out of it, at least till the end of the semester, would have helped both the project and my grade.
my experience came in 4th year. i had a prof who was old/maybe
senile...who continously asked for certain things to be shown in
each project...a covered walkway all over campus for instance (our
project was on campus)...i considered his advice and then decided
to ignore it...completely. he eventually stopped talking to me on
a daily basis since i was sort've/was an ass and wouldn't listen to
anything he said...but on the other hand his advice seemed
meaningless to me at the time, and still now...and i felt it unfair
that his critiques weren't about seemingly important issues, but
instead about a campus that was friendlier to the elderly...
i got a D, but i filed a complaint with the dean who assured me that
the grade would be changed after the prof retired the following year..
sadly he didn't..and i ended up taking my idea and expanding on
it/improving it/ and presenting it later to the same prof...showing that
i still cared about the project and still disagreed with him...to his
'credit' he changed my grade to a C+ which was still by far the lowest
grade i got in studio..the previous low being b+ i believe.
but i think i would have felt very compromised and wouldn't have
been as satisfied with myself/work if i had done everything solely
to please this one man and get a good grade. grades afterall are
basically important until you get your first job..and in this profession
your work/portfolio is far more important than your grades..i never
had one interviewer ask me for my gpa..and it's never been on my
resume.
the trick with an obnoxious prof...esp about form...is how do you learn?
i find that we all have to have our teenage-tantrum moments in school and yes sadly at work...but the trick is how can you find out to listen to advice and evolve. (something as adults, we are just finding out how right our parents were!!) so now you are just proving your point to a guy who doesn't like A, while trying to get to C or D down the line becomes an obstacle. you keep talking about A... so your trick is find a way to evolve your design...while proving A is good and right. use professors that will cause you to explain your whole idea...i always thought it was interesting to take it to a Systems prof or a strucutral prof...i had to explain the whole thing to them, and they usually came at it from a whole other point of view.
proving your point is a rewarding thing...and an incredible skill to learn out of school. ESP if you can get someone who has a preconceived idea from the start...
big thanks all! reading all this i feel a lot better than i did this morning. it was good to read about others' experiences because i do somewhat relate to most if not all of them. i'm going to try to be mature about it, like lb said got plenty of time to come up with something cool we can both appreciate. plus it is a good exercise trying to rationalize with someone like him, i do love a challenge haha. however i think, if it does come down to either of us, i'd prioritize myself, it’s nothing to do with being stubborn or anything like that but i reckon in a couple of years i’ll look back and remember the project, process and end result, and how passionate i was working on it and not some stupid grade, portfolio is far more important right? about the bitterness, can’t help it i reaallly hate being bitter, gonna try to work on that. i’ve this recurring mental image of him head first going down the stairs. such an awful person i am.. but nah not gonna act on that just a naive death wish, which is only healthy right?
hibz, it looks like this project you are talking about is a grad project, and you will be looking for a job after this. In that case, what matters is your portfolio-no one gives a shit about the grades you might have obtained (and honestly, if an office does, then its not the place for you).
That said, if you are planning to study more after this, then the grades might be important, but for most grad programs, the portfolio outweighs the grades.
yeah i'm planning to start applying to grad schools in a year or so. i definitely hope the portfolio outweighs the grades or at least isn't overshadowed by them. current gpa's not that bad right now actually but i was hoping to keep it that way!
A similar thing happened to me during my thesis semester - my professor got a bit schizo on me and started suggesting all KINDS of randomness that just didn't fit in my project. Then sometimes I'd try it in hopes of pacifying him, not like it, and change it back before he even knew. So most of the time he called me a stubborn mule who wouldn't take any of his suggestions, and told me my project was the most boring thing he'd ever seen. But I knew where I was going, and once I figured out the skin system he turned around completely, and actually admitted in a group crit, "I couldn't see where this was going and was angry you weren't listening to me, and then you turn it into this beautiful thing. Obviously you should continue not listening to me!" He hardly gave me suggestions after that, and he ended up giving me an A.
So sometimes they're just not seeing where you're going yet, and when it reaches a point where they DO get it, it's all good. So if you understand your process and where your project is now is pretty typical of your process, it's on track for you, then just keep going. He may just not get how you work yet. My whole problem was that I start very slowly with very geometrically simple schemes, and make every little piece of the plan work like a glove, and the materials/details end up making the project, not some grand gesture. And people who are into grand gestures just aren't going to get that and are going to try and work against it. So if you guys are just having procedural conflicts, go with what works for you.
what do think
so here's something i've been pondering a lot about lately. what's more important, getting an A on my grad. project, basically by letting my idiot of a professor have it his way, or having a project i can be proud to put in my portfolio? the idiot happens to be head of the department this year and, being also my project supervisor, controls 60% of the final project grade., he told me to basically change everything i've worked on, that is because he can't process anything through his thick head. he wants an over simplified project so that it wont offend him. i've shown my work to a couple of other super brainy professors i admire and they told me to continue with it and keep everything as is, even if that involves getting into a fist fight with him. i never had this problem before since non of my other professors are that stupid, and he is, incredibly depressingly stupid!! i'm usually an A student and i already got a lousy D for the first part, lowest grade in class. don't want to compromise my work for a lousy A either, but don't know how far this prof. will go to avoid getting humiliated in crits. i've been advised by many to compromise and just get done with it already, and after that while holding my degree in one hand i'll be able to flick him the finger with the other haha. right, so should i handle this professionally or just be a spoiled brat about it - not take his bullshit? i know this sounds trivial (yeah and a bit cheesy!) but i'd definitely appreciate any suggestions/opinions.
crap! sorry about the double click, i think that's a first timer. please choose either to reply haha.
and yeah it's what do u think not what do think. crap! again.
hibz, if you are a girl ,kiss him on his cheek...and say "Not flattering you sir,but I always found you very cute".
If you are a guy..take him out for a drink,get him sloshed and if he still isnt convinced of ur work after that..
smash him on the head with this-->
or any brand of your choice.
No Pain...No gain !
i'm a girl nevermore, but i do prefer the (second part of the) second suggestion! nice.
lol..yea Hibz..The thought of righteous Violence feels good sometimes ? doesnt it.
Dont get too aggressive..but don't take crap too.
Stick to ur guns.All the best
If you have everything going for your project, you will literally learn nothing by doing your professors project. Do your project, fight with it. Best Architects are rarely good "students".
except for zaha hadid who was a very good student.
rem even wrote on her transcript that he thought she was exceptional (not kidding).
dunno, any chance he has a point when he is critiquing the work? if not and you got a good design then go for it and do your thang. but it would be more impressive if you could get good grades and do your own project too....
thanks guys. yeah i think so too jump, might be bit of a nerd that way. i am fairly stubborn to be honest, however i do usually listen and bend my designs to meet each professor’s criteria. but this guy.. his idea of a good design is basically a good layout of well calculated programme “boxes†on plan with a quick fix for ventilation/ lighting “issuesâ€. can’t even talk with him without getting the urge to jump out of the nearest window. i do remain seriously polite though, that should earn me extra grades no?
can you satisfy his criteria while still holding on to what you've got? you don't have to talk about those other/more compelling ideas with him. maybe tell him the things that interest him and keep the good stuff in your hip pocket for other reviewers, portfolio, and posterity?
sure, this'll take some additional work on your part because the things in which he's interested will take some number-crunching and detailed space planning > left brain stuff. but this is what this particular professor can teach you - you owe it to yourself to learn from every professor you encounter and it's good to have a facility with these more mundane aspects of what we do.
when you have a client this comes up again and again: you find it hard to sell your best ideas if you haven't really nailed the more mundane technical, planning, structural, and function questions.
yeah i guess this would be reasonable. i'm willing to work the extra bits if this would satisfy him, though i think he still might get "confused" on jury days if i mention the main bits! ah well, at least would've done my chores. this definitely would be useful later on, like dealing with seriously defective clients. haha yeah can't help but sound bitter about it.
Steven has a good point, take this experience as a learning step into your future career, you will encounter people, bosses, client that care about fulfilling their requirements and might not share the same vision as you do at this point in time, it’s essential that you built on their interest without selling your ideas and process short of your expectations. Go the extra mile to make then understand that you have given careful consideration to their concern and input. Part of being a good architect is to able to work the crowd at hand, if you have ever seen the big “Wigs†in action, you know what I am talking about it.
Steven Ward as always has excellent advice. If you can, try to selfishly take whatever of value the professor has to offer, while at the same time selfishly hang on to your own ideas about what is important in the project. Your education is about your own development, so trying to learn from every situation is important. At the same time, you want to do work that you feel good about. It's hard to find a happy medium, and the risk is that you either end up with a project that makes neither of you happy...or makes both of you happy! With three more months to work on it, though, it seems like there is enough time to try to achieve a project that is ultimately educational for you as well as one you like. Good luck.
although, as my wife knows, what i think is best is always the hardest/ most complicated way and is guaranteed to take the longest.
steven's right...don't get bitter.
my own similar experience - prof was actually a bright guy, and a great instructor for the first half of the semester. Then, he got caught up in some "thought provoking" work with his practice (that was 1000 miles away) and completely zoned out in regards to the studio for the rest of the semester. Desk crits were murder, it was like we were speaking different languages. He would mumble pat cliche's without even looking at anybody's work. I got really, really bitter ("I'm fsking paying for THIS?!?!?"), and started to more or less try to piss him off, which more or less worked.
grade wise, I had an A/A- on my midterm report, that went to a B for the class because he caught on that I was obviously being antagonistic.
leaving the anger and bitterness out of it, at least till the end of the semester, would have helped both the project and my grade.
i guess it depends on what you're looking for...
my experience came in 4th year. i had a prof who was old/maybe
senile...who continously asked for certain things to be shown in
each project...a covered walkway all over campus for instance (our
project was on campus)...i considered his advice and then decided
to ignore it...completely. he eventually stopped talking to me on
a daily basis since i was sort've/was an ass and wouldn't listen to
anything he said...but on the other hand his advice seemed
meaningless to me at the time, and still now...and i felt it unfair
that his critiques weren't about seemingly important issues, but
instead about a campus that was friendlier to the elderly...
i got a D, but i filed a complaint with the dean who assured me that
the grade would be changed after the prof retired the following year..
sadly he didn't..and i ended up taking my idea and expanding on
it/improving it/ and presenting it later to the same prof...showing that
i still cared about the project and still disagreed with him...to his
'credit' he changed my grade to a C+ which was still by far the lowest
grade i got in studio..the previous low being b+ i believe.
but i think i would have felt very compromised and wouldn't have
been as satisfied with myself/work if i had done everything solely
to please this one man and get a good grade. grades afterall are
basically important until you get your first job..and in this profession
your work/portfolio is far more important than your grades..i never
had one interviewer ask me for my gpa..and it's never been on my
resume.
the trick with an obnoxious prof...esp about form...is how do you learn?
i find that we all have to have our teenage-tantrum moments in school and yes sadly at work...but the trick is how can you find out to listen to advice and evolve. (something as adults, we are just finding out how right our parents were!!) so now you are just proving your point to a guy who doesn't like A, while trying to get to C or D down the line becomes an obstacle. you keep talking about A... so your trick is find a way to evolve your design...while proving A is good and right. use professors that will cause you to explain your whole idea...i always thought it was interesting to take it to a Systems prof or a strucutral prof...i had to explain the whole thing to them, and they usually came at it from a whole other point of view.
proving your point is a rewarding thing...and an incredible skill to learn out of school. ESP if you can get someone who has a preconceived idea from the start...
btw...grades are stupid.
big thanks all! reading all this i feel a lot better than i did this morning. it was good to read about others' experiences because i do somewhat relate to most if not all of them. i'm going to try to be mature about it, like lb said got plenty of time to come up with something cool we can both appreciate. plus it is a good exercise trying to rationalize with someone like him, i do love a challenge haha. however i think, if it does come down to either of us, i'd prioritize myself, it’s nothing to do with being stubborn or anything like that but i reckon in a couple of years i’ll look back and remember the project, process and end result, and how passionate i was working on it and not some stupid grade, portfolio is far more important right? about the bitterness, can’t help it i reaallly hate being bitter, gonna try to work on that. i’ve this recurring mental image of him head first going down the stairs. such an awful person i am.. but nah not gonna act on that just a naive death wish, which is only healthy right?
hibz, it looks like this project you are talking about is a grad project, and you will be looking for a job after this. In that case, what matters is your portfolio-no one gives a shit about the grades you might have obtained (and honestly, if an office does, then its not the place for you).
That said, if you are planning to study more after this, then the grades might be important, but for most grad programs, the portfolio outweighs the grades.
yeah i'm planning to start applying to grad schools in a year or so. i definitely hope the portfolio outweighs the grades or at least isn't overshadowed by them. current gpa's not that bad right now actually but i was hoping to keep it that way!
would it be possible that your professor is trying to test you in someway?
he might be willing to reward you for a well developed concept that you can rationalize and justify, despite the fact that he disagrees.
just a thought.
A similar thing happened to me during my thesis semester - my professor got a bit schizo on me and started suggesting all KINDS of randomness that just didn't fit in my project. Then sometimes I'd try it in hopes of pacifying him, not like it, and change it back before he even knew. So most of the time he called me a stubborn mule who wouldn't take any of his suggestions, and told me my project was the most boring thing he'd ever seen. But I knew where I was going, and once I figured out the skin system he turned around completely, and actually admitted in a group crit, "I couldn't see where this was going and was angry you weren't listening to me, and then you turn it into this beautiful thing. Obviously you should continue not listening to me!" He hardly gave me suggestions after that, and he ended up giving me an A.
So sometimes they're just not seeing where you're going yet, and when it reaches a point where they DO get it, it's all good. So if you understand your process and where your project is now is pretty typical of your process, it's on track for you, then just keep going. He may just not get how you work yet. My whole problem was that I start very slowly with very geometrically simple schemes, and make every little piece of the plan work like a glove, and the materials/details end up making the project, not some grand gesture. And people who are into grand gestures just aren't going to get that and are going to try and work against it. So if you guys are just having procedural conflicts, go with what works for you.
Why do you consider it a do or die situation. Life is about finding a balance. Find the balance.
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