amen, brother ...

I think it's because we're afraid to lose a client that we don't insist on getting paid in a timely manner ... we hem-and-haw around this issue during the sales process and we waffle about it during contract negotiations. even when our contracts provide for a carrying-charge when payments are late, we don't enforce that provision. when we do put the carrying charge on the invoice and the client ignores it, we don't tend to follow-up and insist on receiving the money

we let our clients use us as their bank and we don't complain ... how many contractors do you know would keep on working when their pay request isn't funded ? NONE ... yet, we continue to provide services as a matter of routine without being paid.

we are our own worst enemy and until we say "enough is enough" clients will continue to abuse us in this manner

Since I started doing my own thing I have learned from personal experience that collecting your fee is hard work. I have several repeated client that keep me going. but I have several that I call once a month or so....
from this, I have learned alot about the business part of this profession.
I think you guys hit on something very important for those of us that look at the mail each day hoping to get paid by that allusive client-
In terms of professionalism when is the most appropriate time and place to discuss fees and method of payment?
After many unpaid jobs, now days I certainly take the time to entertain any prospecting project and listen to try to understand the scope and particulars of the project at hand, this is usually followed by a letter of intent regarding the project my understanding of the project scope, client expectations and proposed fee. This is followed by a contract. In the past, I have run into problems when the job is rushed and the client had received the services and it is time to pay after the fact; even though we have clearly stated the financial responsibilities of each party.

to put my potentially ignorant observation into perspective, i'm a newbie who's been lurking around (end greatly enjoying) this site for a few months now. with 10 years of experience in a non-architectural field, i'm strongly considering the long road to getting into it...

put simply, are there products that the architect can withold delivery on until payment is made?

somehow during negotiations, there has to be a way of scheduling payments to coordinate with delivery of schematics, detailed drawings, et al to where, should the client be negligent on a payment, they don't get the next product until they've paid up.

am i being naive? thoughts?

broccolijet,

in the case of large projects, the schedule is over months. the architect will bill according to percent complete of that particular phase. this reduces the risk of the architect providing 100 percent of the service only to not release the product (deliverable) upon client non-payment. converesly, the client has made periodic payments and expects the deliverable.

in an ideal world, 30% of payment would be received when 30% of the work has been completed. often, 90% of the work has been completed when 50% of the payment is received. the architect continues to work on the last 10% but is at risk for 50%.

it's a fine line between deliverables and billing regarding withholding. for public projects, items must be seprated on different line items for scrutiny of department heads or tenant groups 9i'm going through this right now). contracts in the beginning are very complicated. they get almost unmanagable when supplimental or additional services are agreed to after the contract is signed. these amendments to the contract can get very cumbersome and awkward.

Devil Dog -- thanks for the scoop.

seems to work quite a bit like the defense industry (where i've been holed-up)...contractors often work at risk while the gov't gets their shit together at the end of the fiscal year...the gov't is notorious about getting way behind when it comes to payments in general.

change proposals are a nightmare over here as well...

seem to be more parallels than i expected...perhaps the business of architecture won't seem so alien to me after all ;)

broccoli- don't want to hijack the thread just a simple question
i was a contracting officer for the Air Force, what business are you in? i remember the end of the fiscal year fiasco. We would spend millions upon millions on just a few days.

hi +q...congratulations on getting into grad school btw. (i'm planning on applying m.arch for '07). that's a trip, i was an acquisitions officer in the AF and have been a contractor doing the same thing since getting out. i'm actually amazed at how similar the business side of architecture is to what i'm doing and what you used to do...for better or for worse ;)

drop me an email, i'd love to hear more of your backstory...

ditto on the hijack apology, sorry mdler

sent you that e-mail,

+q. over and out

Rendering and graphics are certainly not the same, but even with the small architecture projects we have worked on we request 30-50% upfront, as a retainer. If anyone has a problem with this, they'll most likely have a problem later on.

I remember years ago, by a developer that screwed me (I did 3D and web design for him). When I requested money up front his reply was
"I don't have to pay my architect anything up front, why should I pay you up front?" . Desparate for the job, I took it. Lost $15k on that one. Damn architects! ;-)

trace makes a good point, we also worked with clients in the past and come pay time, they would make the exact same comment about the architects.
it must still be better in the 3d business, since, in a funny way(and some of it is true too), clients think that 3d services are much more exclusive than architectural work.

trace, i agree with your comments and do the same. smaller jobs: 1/2 upfront, 1/2 on completion. larger jobs: 1/3 up front, 1/3 half way though, 1/3 on completion.

Lately, I've written my proposals so I get a certain amount as a deposit than I will bill every two weeks based on my hourly rate for time spent. My proposals stipulate a "not to exceed" amount. So far so good. Before I billed after completion of each phase sd, dd cd. Which could be dragged out over many months. I would be hurting til I could get thru each phase. A friend suggested putting "due upon receipt " on my invoice to improve respond time in writing the check and getting it in the mail. I'm still debating on that one. Other than that I still have had the flakes or clients who loose intrest. I rationalize that it's just part of the business. You can't expect that 100 percent of all jobs will go without at least one client not wanted to part with their dough

my accountant asks for bills to be paid within 10 days. i think when billing is for smaller amounts and/or to smaller firms, it is easier to ask for a quicker turn on payment.

I have discovered a use for my old T-Square. I have it hanging on the wall with a little helvetica medium typface sing below it which says
"Lethal Weapon" Then a list of people who haven't paid me, who are no longer with us. It does send a strong message.

'not to exceed' works...until the clients change their minds every two weeks and you have to start the drawings over. they then wonder why the architectural fees are as much as construction budget

one thing I find very annoying, and honestly don't understand (from both a professional and ethical viewpoint) is when companies say "sorry, we can't pay you until we get paid". If they ask if you can wait for the cash, fine, but usually that's not the case.

Personally, that seems like poor business practice. Sure, it covers their asses, but my mortage company ain't gonna wait 'cause I haven't been paid!

I also pay everyone I hire as they complete things or invoice me and don't expect to wait until I get paid. I also will pay them even if I don't get paid, as I simply believe that's good business, not to mention honest and respectful.

Just seems the profession of architecture is slacking in it's demands, which leads to lack of respect and manipulation from their (sometimes powerful) clients.
But I guess that's business in general, a la bankruptcy, individual LLCs for each development, etc.
Ain't business fun?

My "Not to exceed" number usually includes 50 percent more time than I expect I'll need to do the required work. To cover the annoying little revisions. Basically over -estimate. So even if I never get to the not to exceed number I still was paid for time I invested. The client feels like they got a fair deal since if they never reached the number.

for clients you've never worked with before, it's very important to have a substantial amount of candid conversation up-front about your firm's invoicing process and your expectations regarding payment. ask some very frank questions about where the client's funds are coming from and how his company processes bills. make sure the client tells you what you can expect and be sure that information is included in the contract. discuss and agree with your client what happens if bills are not paid within 30 days - that must be documented in the contract also.

don't be shy about any of this stuff -- if the client won't talk about it with you honestly up front, find another client -- be businesslike -- clients will respect you for that and despise you if you aren't

remember: the essential definition of a "client" is somebody who hires you to provide services and then pays you for the work. if those conditions are not met, then he's not a client - he's a "deadbeat"