It seems that sequential distribution, typical of ancient Roman architecture (and particularly reflected in the layout of Roman baths), is a direct result of male-dominated ”˜formalisms'. In the baths, we see, not only a procession related to bathing and cleansing, but one that implies the control of social interaction according to a particularly ”˜male' agenda (financial transactions, panoptical control,...). In a sense, this reading of the organization as ”˜masculine' might also be interpreted as ”˜classical' (were the formalisms of ancient Rome due to a subjective ”˜predisposition', or to a generalized ”˜spirit of the times'?). I am currently considering the design of a spa in 2006 Los Angeles. In looking at the ancient Roman bath as inspiration, I am confronted with these issues, as well as an interest in considering social connections between building and city. How might one extrapolate from the past to the present, based not only in the general structuring of program, but also on the basic fact that the bath, originally, was not only a place of ”˜water', but also one of social connections?
this is basically what my thesis was on!
it's really easy to use a lot of the classical functions of the roman bath house and design in a more contrmporary way.
if you're have a problem with getting over the masculine thing, i would suggest looking at other culture's bath houses, and perhaps spas that are geared towards women.
i was concerned with masculine/feminine architecture when i first started working on my project, but then realized that a lot of the conclusions i was drawing were really trite. but i was also interested in the social aspect. ultimately i ended up "celebrating the procession" and really making that visible in plan and section.
i don't know enough about LA to make any judgement on how to connect with the city, but for mine, i sited the building ina park, where that it had direct access to natural geothermal lines, as well as the boise river. so, i would look for similar existing water resources.
and have fun with it!
Mar 16, 06 9:43 am ·
·
Check out ancient Rome's Baths of Helena, now gone but Palladio recorded their remains. Helena was born in Drepanum, today's Yalova, Turkey, where there are still some of the best thermal baths of that region. The relation of major fault lines and thermal baths might make an interesting study, (and maybe St. Helena and St. Andreas have already discussed this).
The Imperial Baths at Treves, today's Trier, Germany, were the largest Roman baths outside of Rome, built under Constantine, Helena's son. Treves was Constantine's Imperial capital before Constantinople.
Historians are still not certain whether Constantine's second wife Fausta committed suicide or was kill in the steam room of a bath in Rome. Did this unfortunate event happen in the Baths of Helena? In any case, Constantine never returned to Rome after Fausta's death, although their daughter Constantina for sure did.
I like Stirling and Wilford's unexecuted design for the Kaiserplatz at Aachen, 1987--"The Kaiserquelle imperial baths once stood on this site, where excavated remains of Roman baths mark the original settlement of Aachen." Aachen = aqua, get it?
Yet Wolfhilde says, "Mir aus, Baden-Baden ist bad ass!
From my travels I was fascinated by the spas of Budapest. Might be good for a case study.
As for a modern American connection to the ancient Roman bath house, I would look into the new fitness clubs. Socially and physically they are on similar levels. Granted they didn't have elliptical machines in Rome, but the modern fitness club is more related to the Roman bath than a NYC bath house or a health & beauty spa. At least on a family oriented cultural level.
Mar 16, 06 1:27 pm ·
·
I spent a lot of the Summer of '72 at Boulevard Pools.
Jim, Bob, John and I would "thumb it" (hitch-hike) up the Roosevelt Boulevard--I think our rolled-up-towels-in-hand got us most of the rides, seeing how we were fine young teenagers on our way to an afternoon of swimming and diving and flirting. For sure the heyday was long gone, but no doubt the best "50 cent" I spend back in those days. Now it seems very lost urban America.
We always hung out on the lawn towards the west end of the 7' olympic pool. I actually found two 4-leaf and one 5-leaf clovers there; it was like a little clover mutation spot.
I also did a swimming and bathing center for my thesis project (2004). There is lots of info out there on traditional forms of bathing. All cultures have them. From the north american sweat lodge to the various european (finnish, russian, german) forms. There's so much info out their on the various forms of bathing, but the contemporary swimming centres tend to look like highschool locker rooms. Great thesis topic, I had loads of fun with the program and design.
Good luck.
I also did a swimming and bathing center for my thesis project (2004). There is lots of info out there on traditional forms of bathing. All cultures have them. From the north american sweat lodge to the various european (finnish, russian, german) forms. There's so much info out their on the various forms of bathing, but the contemporary swimming centres tend to look like highschool locker rooms. Great thesis topic, I had loads of fun with the program and design.
Good luck.
A> I went to europe for 3 months in college with some of my best friends. We actually went to that bath house in Budapest.....and we made giant "tornados" in that circular pool in the front! Gosh that brings back memories.
One of my best friends did his thesis on this topic as well. Incidentally, he was the one who started the pool shenanigans.
A - went to that spa in Budapest, very nice social spaces, fully used. No heavy petting, running or dive bombing. to add to the atmosphere it was snowing and -5C outside
Nice to hear other people have experienced the Szechenyi Spa in Budapest. Would love to experience it in the winter. Has Hungary been greatly westernized since 1999? When I was there my friends and I were the only English speaking people at the spa.
Termal spas are great with cold air and snow falling on your head. Have experienced that at the Blue Lagoon in Iceland. Also at the thermal spa in Banff, Alberta.
There are social and health related issues with spas that might constrict under certain circumstances their use. In the polio epidemic of the last century - public pools closed. Public health officials have red flag warnings for vice etc........ Just something that came to mind. Personally in socal, women would probably make a better spa demographic than men. Just an opinion. They would probably have to be segregated by gender to be most effective.
Having been to a 1000+ year old Seljuk haman in Konya, Turkiye..... well, it is a social experience that would really be nice to have in LA. Fabulous experience that I would use if it were here right now.
think caldarium, tepidarium, fridgidarium............ half hour on a slab of hot marble with a towel across your backside and all your troubles melt away.
the baden baden wellness spa seems to have not been metioned yet. on its site there use to be a very nice virtual tour. now it has some password feature.
The subject of baths, especially of ancient Roman baths is potentially very loaded with all sorts of theory and program to play with. We recently had a studio project of just that and many of us found that the idea of baths in the case of Rome is inevitably an urban one, with the baths as an apex condition of roman civic/urban life. The fun came in when one re-interprets this condition to fit the Rome of today.
I think it would be difficult to tie a direct correspondance between a Roman bath and a contemporary LA bath without first working out the (enormous) differences in the urban civic structure of these two cities., depending on how you approach this problem will determine the project, i.m.o
Jun 18, 06 5:08 pm ·
·
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on Roman bath houses
It seems that sequential distribution, typical of ancient Roman architecture (and particularly reflected in the layout of Roman baths), is a direct result of male-dominated ”˜formalisms'. In the baths, we see, not only a procession related to bathing and cleansing, but one that implies the control of social interaction according to a particularly ”˜male' agenda (financial transactions, panoptical control,...). In a sense, this reading of the organization as ”˜masculine' might also be interpreted as ”˜classical' (were the formalisms of ancient Rome due to a subjective ”˜predisposition', or to a generalized ”˜spirit of the times'?). I am currently considering the design of a spa in 2006 Los Angeles. In looking at the ancient Roman bath as inspiration, I am confronted with these issues, as well as an interest in considering social connections between building and city. How might one extrapolate from the past to the present, based not only in the general structuring of program, but also on the basic fact that the bath, originally, was not only a place of ”˜water', but also one of social connections?
are today's day spas the equivalent of roman baths?
who is their primary clientele?
how are the functions different than historic spas?
can you trace a path from roman baths through the (especially german) spa culture of the nineteenth century to todays hair-and-massage spas?
what does this have to do with massage parlors?
this could go lots of directions.
this is basically what my thesis was on!
it's really easy to use a lot of the classical functions of the roman bath house and design in a more contrmporary way.
if you're have a problem with getting over the masculine thing, i would suggest looking at other culture's bath houses, and perhaps spas that are geared towards women.
i was concerned with masculine/feminine architecture when i first started working on my project, but then realized that a lot of the conclusions i was drawing were really trite. but i was also interested in the social aspect. ultimately i ended up "celebrating the procession" and really making that visible in plan and section.
i don't know enough about LA to make any judgement on how to connect with the city, but for mine, i sited the building ina park, where that it had direct access to natural geothermal lines, as well as the boise river. so, i would look for similar existing water resources.
and have fun with it!
Check out ancient Rome's Baths of Helena, now gone but Palladio recorded their remains. Helena was born in Drepanum, today's Yalova, Turkey, where there are still some of the best thermal baths of that region. The relation of major fault lines and thermal baths might make an interesting study, (and maybe St. Helena and St. Andreas have already discussed this).
The Imperial Baths at Treves, today's Trier, Germany, were the largest Roman baths outside of Rome, built under Constantine, Helena's son. Treves was Constantine's Imperial capital before Constantinople.
Historians are still not certain whether Constantine's second wife Fausta committed suicide or was kill in the steam room of a bath in Rome. Did this unfortunate event happen in the Baths of Helena? In any case, Constantine never returned to Rome after Fausta's death, although their daughter Constantina for sure did.
http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/mailing_lists/LT-ANTIQ/2003/07/0011.php
Look at the original Bath Spa and the subsequent project by Nicholas Grimshaw & Partners in Bath, Somerset UK.
I'm sure the Romans would be laughinging from beyoned the grave at such a total cock up. No wonder they left soon after they conquered.
link
link
I should say that the new spa project has still not opened.
The original
The new
link
link
I like Stirling and Wilford's unexecuted design for the Kaiserplatz at Aachen, 1987--"The Kaiserquelle imperial baths once stood on this site, where excavated remains of Roman baths mark the original settlement of Aachen." Aachen = aqua, get it?
Yet Wolfhilde says, "Mir aus, Baden-Baden ist bad ass!
From my travels I was fascinated by the spas of Budapest. Might be good for a case study.
As for a modern American connection to the ancient Roman bath house, I would look into the new fitness clubs. Socially and physically they are on similar levels. Granted they didn't have elliptical machines in Rome, but the modern fitness club is more related to the Roman bath than a NYC bath house or a health & beauty spa. At least on a family oriented cultural level.
I spent a lot of the Summer of '72 at Boulevard Pools.
Jim, Bob, John and I would "thumb it" (hitch-hike) up the Roosevelt Boulevard--I think our rolled-up-towels-in-hand got us most of the rides, seeing how we were fine young teenagers on our way to an afternoon of swimming and diving and flirting. For sure the heyday was long gone, but no doubt the best "50 cent" I spend back in those days. Now it seems very lost urban America.
We always hung out on the lawn towards the west end of the 7' olympic pool. I actually found two 4-leaf and one 5-leaf clovers there; it was like a little clover mutation spot.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&q=%22boulevard+pools%22&btnG=Search
I also did a swimming and bathing center for my thesis project (2004). There is lots of info out there on traditional forms of bathing. All cultures have them. From the north american sweat lodge to the various european (finnish, russian, german) forms. There's so much info out their on the various forms of bathing, but the contemporary swimming centres tend to look like highschool locker rooms. Great thesis topic, I had loads of fun with the program and design.
Good luck.
I also did a swimming and bathing center for my thesis project (2004). There is lots of info out there on traditional forms of bathing. All cultures have them. From the north american sweat lodge to the various european (finnish, russian, german) forms. There's so much info out their on the various forms of bathing, but the contemporary swimming centres tend to look like highschool locker rooms. Great thesis topic, I had loads of fun with the program and design.
Good luck.
A> I went to europe for 3 months in college with some of my best friends. We actually went to that bath house in Budapest.....and we made giant "tornados" in that circular pool in the front! Gosh that brings back memories.
One of my best friends did his thesis on this topic as well. Incidentally, he was the one who started the pool shenanigans.
Seems to be a popular thesis topic, eh?
A - went to that spa in Budapest, very nice social spaces, fully used. No heavy petting, running or dive bombing. to add to the atmosphere it was snowing and -5C outside
There are a number of old spas scattered across America. Many of them located in the Rocky Mountains.
Nice to hear other people have experienced the Szechenyi Spa in Budapest. Would love to experience it in the winter. Has Hungary been greatly westernized since 1999? When I was there my friends and I were the only English speaking people at the spa.
Termal spas are great with cold air and snow falling on your head. Have experienced that at the Blue Lagoon in Iceland. Also at the thermal spa in Banff, Alberta.
There are social and health related issues with spas that might constrict under certain circumstances their use. In the polio epidemic of the last century - public pools closed. Public health officials have red flag warnings for vice etc........ Just something that came to mind. Personally in socal, women would probably make a better spa demographic than men. Just an opinion. They would probably have to be segregated by gender to be most effective.
Having been to a 1000+ year old Seljuk haman in Konya, Turkiye..... well, it is a social experience that would really be nice to have in LA. Fabulous experience that I would use if it were here right now.
think caldarium, tepidarium, fridgidarium............ half hour on a slab of hot marble with a towel across your backside and all your troubles melt away.
the baden baden wellness spa seems to have not been metioned yet. on its site there use to be a very nice virtual tour. now it has some password feature.
Quick, get a life guard! Oops, too late.
The subject of baths, especially of ancient Roman baths is potentially very loaded with all sorts of theory and program to play with. We recently had a studio project of just that and many of us found that the idea of baths in the case of Rome is inevitably an urban one, with the baths as an apex condition of roman civic/urban life. The fun came in when one re-interprets this condition to fit the Rome of today.
I think it would be difficult to tie a direct correspondance between a Roman bath and a contemporary LA bath without first working out the (enormous) differences in the urban civic structure of these two cities., depending on how you approach this problem will determine the project, i.m.o
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