Compensation is bad compared to other professionals with equivalent education - it's great compared to most of the populace. In most settings, business classes probably won't affect your salary much, although they might make you more employable. In some settings, licensed architects make more because of the firms billing structure - in others they won't make any more than someone with the same worth to the firm. And where your degree is from probably doesn't make much of a difference money-wise either. These are of course generalisations, there may be someone who went to an someplace extra-prestigious (maybe Princeton?) that gets $20K a year more just by virtue of the degree, but I haven't heard of them. Mostly where you go to school matters within your region, or within the type of work you are trying to do. I interviewed with a firm in NY where the guy who was interviewing me went on a tirade about Harvard students, and said he wouldn't hire them. That's just as stupid as hiring someone just BECAUSE they went to Harvard, but hey - those people are out there. Architects can be stupid just like everyone else. As long as we are speaking generally, since I graduated I have always had shit insurance and benefits packages compared to my non-architecture friends.

But if you are set on making money, there are ways to do it. Work for a developer. Work for a big non-architectural company doing facilities. Work for an architecture firm, but bring in projects. Work for an architecture firm that does profitable/boring work. Work in an region where the cost of living is low. And most of all, work hard when you are working and be respected by your employers and co-workers. Easy to say, right?

justin: the salaries for entry-level interns are fairly low regardless of where your degree is from or which degree (B.Arch or M.Arch) you have. The most recent AIA salary survey had some information about this: about 40% of employers currently say they offer a higher starting salary for someone with an M.Arch - but the difference is usually no more than 10% to 15% of what the B.Arch person would start at. Starting intern salaries currently average anywhere from 28k to 40k or a little more, depending on the region and firm type.
As for the licensing issue: the average licensed architect earns more than an unlicensed person. But many people find that there is no difference at all in salary if they stay in the same firm. To realize much of a salary gain many people switch jobs soon after licensure. Recently NCARB stated that the average amount of time between graduation and licensure is currently 7.5 years. The licensing process also runs about $2000 these days - for test fees, state fees, NCARB fees for IDP and record compilation and transmittal, study materials, etc. If you decide to join the AIA once you're licensed the fees average $700+ per year for local+state+national dues. If you decide to become NCARB certified you'll owe NCARB a couple hundred dollars per year, plus another $275 everytime you transmit your record...

i also wondered about the architects salaries. in my"research" i found out that industrial designers make huge money, according to idsa.org after like 20 years(100k +)
as with many careers, experience and ability is what pay is based on so if i become an architect, i think that even though i know im going to be poor paying off loans and debt, i'll take it. i know i wont have a family or something where money is a need, so i when i realized this, money is not really that important...until you need it. and as far as i have heard, architects make a pretty good living (after many years of experience)

I live in alaska where petroleum engineers are the hottest jobs known. starting salary sometimes 75k or more, with signing bonus of tens of thousands. i know if i tried i could be an engineer and it fits who i am , but for the rest of my life i don't think i want to do it.
i'm on a rant but i just wanted to make a point that a lifetime job/career is priceless and starting pay should not be a major factor in choosing what to major in

i mean..we only have one lifetime to live right? might as well do what you enjoy doing

but dang..75k starting salary? jeez. typically engineer starting salaries are lower than 75k but they're definitely higher than architect starting salary. i could never imagine myself being an engineer unless it was really really design/creation orientated, which in most cases it's not.

yeah, but only in the oil industry
the rest of the country is like 50 k start(which is really high)

: this topic has been done to death many, many times before ... sugggest you might want to review the previous discussions by using the search function to identify prior threads containing such keywords as:

pay
salary
salaries
compensation
slavery
overtime
underpay
abuse
value
unhappy
survey
worth
review
raise
etc.

though i think many professional careers have a far higher starting salary than that of an architect, the mobility for an architect to earn more money later on is greater, since experience is mainly the determining factor to how much you will be paid. In other careers, it is probably the degree you have but since experience for them is less of a factor than architecture, their raise is not as high.

correct me if i'm wrong

Mmm. Not so much. Unless you own your own firm, or become a principal, or leave traditional practice, architects in large markets will top out around 100K, and nowadays (typically) you are looking at 15-20 years experience to get that amount. When you are fifty and have two kids approaching college age (who want to go to Cornell -wink-) and a mortgage, that isn't that much money. In LA, I was told recently by a headhunter that rates are currently around $40K+3K/year of experience. 'Course that's a rule of thumb and subject to other factors, but that does cover most of my friends here.

Bottom line is that you will start out making less money than your peers, and probably never catch up. On the positive side, you will probably be able to work just about anywhere you want.

i don't want to super rich. i just want to be able to live. i want to be able to afford a family..stuff like that. money is not my thing..but i don't want to starve.

fullfillment in life is my thing. i hope the path of an architect will give me a fullifilling life. i hope this is the same for all you architects out there.

if the pay is not good, at least let it be fullfilling.

justin_hui -- methinks you're looking to complete strangers to help you figure out the rest of your life -- ok -- maybe that's too harsh -- but, look around this forum, like comb suggested above

there is lots of complaining here about poor pay AND crappy working conditions -- there are many people here who clearly are second guessing why they went into architecture in the first place -- they're not earning the compensation they would like AND they're not having much fun either -- there are some very unhappy people here

there also are some who truly love what they do, some who make good livings, and some who accomplish both of those. i'm one of those. i work damn hard; i'll never be considered a "great" architect, but i enjoy my clients; i enjoy the work i do for them; i have great colleagues here at the firm and elsewhere in the profession who i respect and enjoy spending time with; overall, i'm reasonably happy with my life

earlier in my career, i left architecture to work in real estate -- i made tons more money than i make now -- i also wasn't happy, despite the money -- so, i came back.

my advice, if you don't know if architecture is for you, find a way to spend some time in an architect's office for a while - take an administrative job, if necessary. but, don't go into this blind. research the money and decide if you can live with that, cause it's not likely to change. decide if the work is likely to be otherwise fulfilling. but, decide for yourself -- the people here can only give you glimpses of what it's like

Architects work around people that make better money than them all the time: realtors, developers, engineers, marketing personnel, IT people, construction managers, insurers, lawyers, sales reps, and your clients. It can be frustrating to have that always in your face, knowing that your education/training is intense and you work hard.
It is also hard when people assume you make 2-3 times what you actually do, and when you hint that you don't, they tend to think you've done something wrong with your career then.
As for being able to eat and pay bills, you'll be OK. If you are living a nice lifestyle now with your parents that may continue through college with their help, it might be hard to take that down a few notches when you get out on your own.
Part of it is also, is that it's hard to know what the good life is, to have good taste and then try to live within your means. You just want so much more, so then become bitter.

There is a problem with working with other professions that “keep score" particularly if you are in the game because you are passionate and have a higher calling, they equate your salary with the value of your service.

The generaly lower salary that architectgs are willing to accept hurts the profession in many ways.

so why can't we all raise our prices? like lawyers...

will you run out of business if you raise your prices?cause some other firm is going to charge less

I say Architects ought to be entreprenuers. we complain about bad design and sit back and let bad developers design and layout our cities. Freakin heck, we ought to do it and be the ones making all the crazy cash. Then we won't have to complain about being underpaid yet more valuable than other professional practices. However, I will say I still think doctors are more qualified to make the kind of money they do for what they do. we try to be careful with our xacto knives to make a beautiful model, but imagine a wrong cut in a brain operation...

Absolutely. The problem with that idea is competition - even if every architect in the world somehow managed to agree with each other that they were going to going to raise their rates by a certin amount, there would be a considerable number who would back out at the last minute, realizing the potential for work increase based on maintaining lower rates. It's the way money works - you can either make a great profit on a product and only need to have a few customers, or you can make a tiny profit on a product but have wayyyy more customers, thereby earning an equivilant profit. Therefor, the lesser-quality designers will always chicken out and keep charging less, because they know they are not in a position to demand more, and will thereby keep driving the whole range down.

And you'll be a normal middle-class person as an architect. You will not have to worry about food on the table unless you're stupid with money, but there will be a month or two a year that you scrape to make rent. And you're not buying a house (or even a condo) right away, or a new car. You'll keep driving your parents hand-me-down car for as long as it will run, and then you'll go buy something decent, but cringe every time you write the loan check. It will take you a long time to pay off your student loans. There will not be a point at which everything suddenly clicks and becomes vastly more comfortable, because your lifestyle will increase as your salary does (unless you marry rich). Eventually you will have a nice house and a nice car, but your kids probably aren't going to private schools or anything, and when they come home and say they want to take dance lessons, you'll have to check your budget before you can say 'yes.' This is life for a good portion of the American population. And guess what, that's damned good compared to the rest of the world, so unless you feel the need to be some spectacular millionaire because you think you're so special that you deserve that, don't sweat it.

Justin hui



1) calm down





2) Get your Degree/diploma whatever





3) Start working




the rest will follow.

Architects do not make a lot compared to most other professions.

I have a few friends who are 23 and doing investment banking...their avg salary atm is around $75+ k.

Friend working at Microsoft...23..$80k.

My other friend who is going into accounting said, "I hope to break 6 digits by the time i'm 30." That guy has a tendency to be overly conservative so I think he'll break the 6 digit salary barrier by the time he is 26.

Obviously, these are generalizations. But the likelyhood of getting "rich" in architecture is a helluva lot lower than in many, many, many other fields.

so now that we all agree that architects don't get paid that well,

why did all of you choose architecture then? i mean, if you're still in the field, there MUST be something that's keeping you in it.

what do you feel you are getting in exchange of high pay in some other career by being an architect? So what's making you guys stay in the field rather than doing something else?

Justin...

this is my3rd job..am in a Engg/arch consultancy corporate

Most of my contemporaries/peers/classmates have

1)either dropped out of the profession(due to salary issues or because they didnt have the balls to continue ) OR

2) are designing furniture/residential interiors etc.



dont want to sound like Im bragging but within 4 months of my new job,I've got a freehand to design and masterplan airports,townships and new cities.

My pay so far has been strictly average( by the industry standards )but HELL im happy that ive progressed so fast.



everything depends on where you want to go and what you want to accomplish.


P.S--?and ive just turned 27 years.and dont have any masters PHD etc from any star school

make the best of your undergrad justin and the rest will follow.

why can't there be a set standard pay for labor?

justin_hui ... for the most part, design firm fees are established by market forces that we do not control -- we do not have unlimited ability to set our own rates -- about all we can do is quote a fair fee, and then start negotiating when the client says it's too high and that he can get Firm XYZ down the street to do the work for 75% of what we quoted -- as a profession, we find it very hard to walk away from low fees on work that we otherwise want to undertake

not saying it's right ... just saying that's the way it seems to be.

I'm actually lucky (I guess) because of my parent's financial stance. If I make 40k a year by the age of 26 or 27, that's a lot compared to my childhood, and assuming i'm making more like 30k+ for 10 years (the other 10k goes to paying off loans) that's also more than enough for me to live off of comfortably. Ofcourse I hope that my Masters will help improve that amount, and licensure before age 30 will also help improve that (maybe 10k to 15k extra?) Plus add about 10k for an extra 5 years from now, that'll get you too almost 60k by age 30. Add some kids to the mix, but a spouse's income of something between 30kto70k, that'll put you at 90k to 160k for a household at age 30, and since my parent's were pulling in probably close to 20k to 30k (today's inflation calculated) as a household when they were around 30...well then 90k is a fortune to me.

My point is, it's all about how you look at it. Sure, it's not a fair amount for our education in comparision to our peers, but a 40k income is still largely above the national average, and a small fortune compared to the rest of the world. Just invest and save for large purchases rather than take out loans and credit cards for your new automobile or plasma TV and you'll live a comfortable lifestyle.

I would agree with some of what metamechanic said, especially the part about a household making less than 30k with kids and already we're better off than that...

but dude, lay off the submit button...:)

all you need to know:

a) it varies A LOT, and for many many many many reasons, so really you shouldn't listen to any of us

b) chances are, you won't starve, but chances are, you won't be living a luxury lifestyle, either

c) in this current american culture, daring design typically comes at the expense of great time and personal initiative, which translates into money out of your pocket, therefore typically nowadays in order to make anything out of the ordinary you should be prepared to work quite a bit with correspondingly frustratingly low pay. but, should this worry you...

d) chances are, you won't starve, but chances are, you won't be living a luxury lifestyle, either.

also,

e) if you can handle a corporate lifestyle, and things get rough, you can usually always go work for a big firm for awhile and you'll make pretty good money and benefits.

the end.

(at least ) two of these things - you should consider o.k. when thinking about your job.

problem with architecture:

as mentioned above salary is not o.k. compared to the personal effort, education, other professions, etc.
And it's like that in all countries I've worked in.
the amount of spare time as you can see in other discussions is often reduced by overtime (unpaid or paid) and because architecture is a profession that tends to grab every aspect of your daily life.
So there keeps fulfillment in your job.
This is surly the reason most of us do architecture (or at least I do)
But still it's only one out of three...
That's why I very often think about changing into something different where I do something dull but the ratio of payment and time for my family are better or I think about possibilities of how I can do what I love AND still keep enogh time for myself (and family), risking that my salary gets even less.
But I must confess that I find myself very often in persuading me and others that the point of fulfillment is more important than the other two and that it's ok. to betry my very own rule.

justin,

i find it extremely commendable that you are questioning why being and architect and loving ones work = low wages.

Though there are many good responses here, i personally feel that if you 'think outside the box' (i hate that phrase, but have nothing better to use) you can get a good balance of doing what you like in architecture, and getting a pretty good pay (im talking about 80k in 3-4 years after your masters) - just see the salary poll. Dont ask me on how to achieve that balance, but if you go down the same beaten path ( i mean 'learning' for a while with a starchitect with starving wages etc) you will be unhappy with your pay situation.

thanks guys! i appreciate all your comments. i will also read "architect? a candid guide to the profession" just to confirm my decision. It is highly un-likely I will go to another field and that is why I sometimes dread about the lifestyle I will have but hey, if I was created to be an architect, so be it!

and like some of you said, it's really what you decide to do that matters.I'd like to make my existence worthwhile by designing buildings for people.

er, just keep in mind that *making your existance worthwhile* is one hell of a lot to ask out of any career. You might want to work on some things to make you feel worthwhile outside of architecture as well.

My two cents points to my current situation. I'm 24 and in between Undergrad and Graduate school with only two years experience. I approached a relative about working for myself instead of working on his payroll. It's a win-win situation for both of us. I work 40 hours a week, rarely any more than that. I make rounghly a little under $60k a year and that's pretty freaking good for a 24 year single guy that's not about to be licensed and has little overall experience, especially where I live right now, which if southest Georgia. As far as pay down the road, My boss brings in well over $300k and only pays one other person like me, which of course he writes off as a business expense. He pays himself a $100K base salary and invests the profits back into the business and gives himself a bonus twice a year. He's also 45. Which is pretty young in this profession. Of course this is not typical as it does involve self-employment and knowing enough people to start a successful practice, but I'm merely giving you my perspective.

The point is. If you plan on having a bunch of kids, if you plan on buying a brand new Mercedes every two years, and you plan on taking more than one trip to Europe or the Carribean every year it might not be for you. But as far as a good living, the rewards the career can bring you aside, you will do fine.

Oh, and there are some perks that enable you to make some extra money. . . . I've learned.

GT and Meta have it correct.

You have to think broad brush.
I can do two renderings a month for realestate concerns and nearly double my salary.

Maybe do some graphics? etc


In the end it is about why you got in this game in the first place. Most of you knew there wasn't money in it. So it had to be something else. Whatever that is you have to keep your eyes on it. Hold on to it.....
Like your life depended on it. There will be many people trying to cloud that vision and ushually money is the tool they use.

The guys that are making 6 digits by the time they are 27 are well on thier way to the third wife and an empty shell of an existence.

I see these guys.. I do work for these guys. They all wonder why I am so happy and fulfilled when I only make $60-$70,000..
They just dont get it.
You guys getit!

Architects have an opportunity ( if they want it) to have something better...and if they position themselves properly still get paid.

60-70k! that's not too shabby..but it'd make sense if you had a couple of years of experience.

Yeah, you have to want it and get off your lazy ass and do something about. For instance: A guy I used to work with has a 5 year degree, had all his IDP credit, and was about to start the ARE. He made about $43,000. I'm of course making $60K and I'm 4 years younger then him. I told him that he could go to work the next day for my boss, who's a relative and ok'd it. He would make $20k more a year with less hours than he was currently working (50+/-). There are ways to shelter some of the money from taxes when you work for yourself so that would put a little extra money in his pocket. What does the guy do? Nothing. He was miserble with the firm and still wants to leave but he's not willing to follow the money when the oppurtunity arises. Be willing to take risks. He has no wife or children, is a single guy like me. He may never have another oppurtunity like that.

I'm not clear why we always seem to assume that doctors and lawyers hate their jobs but do them for the money. My experience is that most doctors get an immense amount of personal satisfaction out of their jobs, even if there are huge frustrations (malpractice) and paperwork. Lawyers I think more often choose their career because they realized they were about to graduate from undergrad and the choice was either Work or Law School. But that doesn't mean that a great many of them don't find very meaningful work when they're done--probably not at the absolute highest paying firms, but as Urbanisto says above, there are many ways to find fulfillment. "Job" can be a means to a large, very satisfying end as well as an end in itself.

Also, lots of lawyers work at nonprofit organizations, making less than many of the people who post to Archinect do, and their choice to do so is actually much more conscious than most architects' choice (since they already are laywers). Perhaps as a result, there are fewer threads on public interest law websites about why they make so much less money than their colleagues in their own profession. It's a choice they make and so they move on.

We should too.

....no that they hate thier jobs but there is a notion that these guys are clocking out at 5:00.

i've just come to accept that my meager salary gets me by and i enjoy my work

The only certainties are death and taxation