yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Just like with architecture (art, music, etc.) everyone's got their opinion and are entitled to them.
I have to disagree with you about the other technologies. My site, which is entirely html (js/css), doesn't blink as things load inconsistenly, but that's rare and I don't have tons of text and scrolling things to add to the inconsistency. My next site, and indeed 99% of the work I do for clients, will be 90-100% Flash.
Personally, I can't stand sites that change as you change the browser size. I want my content in front of me, text static so I can read and pick up at the same spot even if I change the browser size.
FYI, you an do these things with Flash now, too.
Yes, you can control the browser buttons (bck/frwrd) from Flash, but it requires some js and tricky coding that no one I know bothers with.
Everyone has their opinions and that's fine, but do recognize that the web is not only for straight forward (ie boring) presentations of information. Just like architecture, some of it is there for itself and the target audience (which obviously would not be you). The 'wow' factor cannot be underestimated as a sales and marketing tool and many sites, all Flash, are pushing the boundaries and challenging what the conventions are.
And I like the norms to be challenged, otherwise we'd have square sites and warehouse/box buildings everywhere....oh wait... ;-)
i am also not a fan of content resizing. outside of aesthetic reasons, it requires using larger images so that when they are scaled up render appropriately, but for the user that has a smaller screen load times are increased. no?
to be kind to those on less robust connections, i make images small on my site and allow users to click on a link if they'd like to see a larger version of that image.
Again, I agree almost entirely with your last paragraph. I fully recognize that the web is not just for presenting information, and I can enjoy sites (and architecture) that is for itself. I like challenging norms as much as the next guy. insinuating otherwise is kind of insulting.
I just think the positions are swapped: it's the great non-flash sites that are pushing the boundries and challenging conventions. Flash IS the norm. To me, the novelty of flash has worn off, the wow factor it had has become an eyeroll, and it's now flash that's for the most part boring. In my mind the world is moving on.
If you have any more info on controling browser buttons from flash, I'd love to see it - would be good knowledge to have.
e: I didin't mean in terms of using larger images, I meant more in terms of text and in general more content, not bigger content.
my apologies, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you don't like challenging the norm, just that I appreciate firms (arch, sites, etc.) that do push the boundaries.
the boundaries are not defined by flash or any other plugin...it is in the understanding of code structures and how they function for a particular site.
Where these concepts have been considered, the site is usually good; when they have not, it is usually bloated, unintelligent and amatuer at best.
I would say it depends...for the regular web design type it may be intuitive, but for the more laymen, it is probably a good call out.
i would in no way call group94 minimal or any of the sites they make...extremely elegant and intellegent through their UI functionality...but also highly complex in their structure...just because something appears to be simple or minimal in no way means that it is - I think that is the beauty in sites like that.
yeah, I didn't mean to post those as minimal sites, but any means, just that they are pushing the envelope in web design.
Honestly, I've never noticed the mouse (their logo that they stick on all the sites they do) telling me what to do. Their site is not blatantly obvious, but it does become easy to navigate if you move your mouse around.
The other site, the Detremmerie site, I think is beautiful. Their actionscript skills are incredible and they do a wonderful job of keeping things intuitive, smooth, and well hidden. I wish I had the time to develop skills to create a site of that calibre (not that I couldn't, but finding clients to pay that much to justify the time is rare - good clients for anything is rare). But it is far more sophisticated than the majoriy would need (or want), but for some of their high end clients, it's a perfect match.
Of the two I think I like group94's work the best...but there's still too much use of dippy transitions, sliding text, etc for me. + for them is it seems most of their recent work has working browser buttons, and some of it sorta plays nice with larger screen windows. definitely some of the best flash work I've seen.
the detremmerie site has a great use of color, but after one or two clicks I started to get irritated with the same animated "opening" happening over, and over, and over... and the navbar on the bottom is very awkward.
Nice site by the way - neptis that is. I am a little on the fence about the rasterized text juxtaposed with the normal web text. It seems it is necessary with Flash, but sometimes the duality presents itself more.
pawson's has a lot more stuff than i might have expected. not that it's crowded, but you'd expect a guy who sells minimalism to push it in all aspects of his self-presentation, i.e., he should out-minimal the rest.
a different approach to minimal. not visually minimal, but no choices to make and very little hard information. just a montage of images and video clips meant to convey an impression. and an email address.
funny discussion here.
i like link, cause it's ugly and the place is close to my place link, cause it's nice, and has content, and i was living around toronto for some time (on north york univ.-campus - OH, CANADA... great place, i miss it) link, cause it's nice, and has content, and is good to read (mostly german, sorry), and is loading fast because of plain html, and it's my own.
Minimal Websites
an off-topic question -
what is the architect's obsession with Courier font?
Mana -
yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Just like with architecture (art, music, etc.) everyone's got their opinion and are entitled to them.
I have to disagree with you about the other technologies. My site, which is entirely html (js/css), doesn't blink as things load inconsistenly, but that's rare and I don't have tons of text and scrolling things to add to the inconsistency. My next site, and indeed 99% of the work I do for clients, will be 90-100% Flash.
Personally, I can't stand sites that change as you change the browser size. I want my content in front of me, text static so I can read and pick up at the same spot even if I change the browser size.
FYI, you an do these things with Flash now, too.
Yes, you can control the browser buttons (bck/frwrd) from Flash, but it requires some js and tricky coding that no one I know bothers with.
Everyone has their opinions and that's fine, but do recognize that the web is not only for straight forward (ie boring) presentations of information. Just like architecture, some of it is there for itself and the target audience (which obviously would not be you). The 'wow' factor cannot be underestimated as a sales and marketing tool and many sites, all Flash, are pushing the boundaries and challenging what the conventions are.
And I like the norms to be challenged, otherwise we'd have square sites and warehouse/box buildings everywhere....oh wait... ;-)
i am also not a fan of content resizing. outside of aesthetic reasons, it requires using larger images so that when they are scaled up render appropriately, but for the user that has a smaller screen load times are increased. no?
to be kind to those on less robust connections, i make images small on my site and allow users to click on a link if they'd like to see a larger version of that image.
Again, I agree almost entirely with your last paragraph. I fully recognize that the web is not just for presenting information, and I can enjoy sites (and architecture) that is for itself. I like challenging norms as much as the next guy. insinuating otherwise is kind of insulting.
I just think the positions are swapped: it's the great non-flash sites that are pushing the boundries and challenging conventions. Flash IS the norm. To me, the novelty of flash has worn off, the wow factor it had has become an eyeroll, and it's now flash that's for the most part boring. In my mind the world is moving on.
If you have any more info on controling browser buttons from flash, I'd love to see it - would be good knowledge to have.
e: I didin't mean in terms of using larger images, I meant more in terms of text and in general more content, not bigger content.
understood manamana.
you mean the days of gabocorp are gone? noooooooooooooooooooo.
my apologies, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you don't like challenging the norm, just that I appreciate firms (arch, sites, etc.) that do push the boundaries.
Two of the best in the world:
http://www.hi-res.net/
http://www.group94.com/
One of my all time favs:
http://www.detremmerie.be/
I'd be interested to hear what people thought of that one.
the boundaries are not defined by flash or any other plugin...it is in the understanding of code structures and how they function for a particular site.
Where these concepts have been considered, the site is usually good; when they have not, it is usually bloated, unintelligent and amatuer at best.
trace, I am not sure I like the mouse on group94 telling me how to navigate. It should be pretty intuitive, no?
I would say it depends...for the regular web design type it may be intuitive, but for the more laymen, it is probably a good call out.
i would in no way call group94 minimal or any of the sites they make...extremely elegant and intellegent through their UI functionality...but also highly complex in their structure...just because something appears to be simple or minimal in no way means that it is - I think that is the beauty in sites like that.
jason, u need a link to the frontier on that site
coming soon in the resources section...Frontier, and menu...as well as maps to Sadies and El Patio.
sadies was cooler when it was in the bowling alley. now im craving green chile chicken enchiladas. damn...
yeah, I didn't mean to post those as minimal sites, but any means, just that they are pushing the envelope in web design.
Honestly, I've never noticed the mouse (their logo that they stick on all the sites they do) telling me what to do. Their site is not blatantly obvious, but it does become easy to navigate if you move your mouse around.
The other site, the Detremmerie site, I think is beautiful. Their actionscript skills are incredible and they do a wonderful job of keeping things intuitive, smooth, and well hidden. I wish I had the time to develop skills to create a site of that calibre (not that I couldn't, but finding clients to pay that much to justify the time is rare - good clients for anything is rare). But it is far more sophisticated than the majoriy would need (or want), but for some of their high end clients, it's a perfect match.
flat, with an egg on top.
bueno dude
Of the two I think I like group94's work the best...but there's still too much use of dippy transitions, sliding text, etc for me. + for them is it seems most of their recent work has working browser buttons, and some of it sorta plays nice with larger screen windows. definitely some of the best flash work I've seen.
the detremmerie site has a great use of color, but after one or two clicks I started to get irritated with the same animated "opening" happening over, and over, and over... and the navbar on the bottom is very awkward.
Zoe, are you perchance related to a certain exectutive director?
Nice site by the way - neptis that is. I am a little on the fence about the rasterized text juxtaposed with the normal web text. It seems it is necessary with Flash, but sometimes the duality presents itself more.
tight
construct
parameters
neptis is quite nice, zoe
this is my lady's site (done for an intro to multimedia course last year, so no harsh crits)
oh, and she's not in design
jasmineprobst.com (oops)
Have we mentioned one of our own Archinector's sites?
http://www.lateralarch.com
here's one i worked on that's pretty minimal
http://www.areainstitute.org
i also really like these guys
http://www.caput58.net
by the way I have a question on website design:
to get this simple white forum did Archinect team write code for themselves or they modify code from some popular PHP programs. I am really curriuos?
Thanks
AUVN
sorry the above link doesn't work; so much for my minimal posting approach. again:
olk
brilliant website. it goes onto my list of tops for sure. i think ive seen it before. i like the consistency in his work, too.
How about the OPPOSITE of minimal. Click on Kessels Kramer's website 10 time in a row. Or actually try to find anything on it. Advertising firm.
um...
the king of minimalism
john pawson
self proclaimed, anyway
Two of my all-time favorites:
Office dA
Allied Works Architecture
both cool, but don't feel minimal exactly.
ofc da's is even fairly 'flash'-y.
pawson's has a lot more stuff than i might have expected. not that it's crowded, but you'd expect a guy who sells minimalism to push it in all aspects of his self-presentation, i.e., he should out-minimal the rest.
a different approach to minimal. not visually minimal, but no choices to make and very little hard information. just a montage of images and video clips meant to convey an impression. and an email address.
red7e
eponymous:
minimal
minimal
minimal
minimal
minimal
i always wondered what it would be like to live in one of pawson's designs.
Forgot about this guy, the first king of bitmap fonts
http://www.miniml.com/
Personally, I think that Office dA site is pretty bad - someone slap that designer for making it resize over and over!!
I've always liked the Allied sites, including the previous version (not minimal, by any means, though)
and teh office dA site is sloooooow.
funny discussion here.
i like
link, cause it's ugly and the place is close to my place
link, cause it's nice, and has content, and i was living around toronto for some time (on north york univ.-campus - OH, CANADA... great place, i miss it)
link, cause it's nice, and has content, and is good to read (mostly german, sorry), and is loading fast because of plain html, and it's my own.
also very sweet:
http://www.mvrdv.nl/
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