why would designing a religious structure be any different than designing any other type of building? you don't have to be a scientist to design a lab or a doctor to design a hospital. like any other project type, you just have to research the precedents and understand the needs of the client.
Well, he didn't mean it's impossible...
garpike, what about you? Are you a christian? If so, do you design a church only through what it means to you or through what it means to others?
i'd love to design a church or a mosque or a synagouge or a temple.
which i did but just as projects no built.
i like gehry's church in loyola law school. he is jewish.
bryan and French, I am an atheist. I was raised Protestant, but lurched into atheism during my teens. My religious upbringing, I imagine, would only affect my design by providing me with a little knowledge - not so much something I would feel passionate about just because I feel connected.
I have never design a church. I guess I am trying to generate a conversation about how others have gotten into their work, when it doesn't necessarily fit what they believe. bryan, I am not sure if it is as common that a devout anti-science fundamentalist Christian would feel upset about designing a laboratory. I think the issues are not as simply stated, but if you'd like to elaborate, I am all ears... er eyes.
garpike. you can comment if you like. I was wondering if you're atheism was decided more on a rejection of religion and, in that case, religion's perversion of God, or just God in general.
i'm an atheist and i think that a church would be a really fun design problem...as an atheistic architect, i don't have all of the baggage and preconceptions that for instance a catholic architect would have when designing a catholic church/cathedral...for me it would be a chance to really study all of the ritualistic aspects of what goes on in a church and then really let the program develop out of that research and in turn let the form be generated by that program...
but then again, this sorta brings up the question of "would you accept a commission from an organization that advocates something that you find repulsive?"
for example...
if you're pro-life, would you design an abortion clinic?
if you're anti-gun, would you design the NRA headquarters?
if you're atheist, would you design a church?
architphil, I share your interest in studying the ritualistic aspects.
At first I think, naively, that an atheist would not have a problem with a church in the way a pro-lifer an abortion clinic, but you never know. Are there any of those architects here that would be absolutely put off buy a church project?
I think a designer or architect, shuld first challance his or her own attribute. Ask if you realy are in the possion to realy contribuate acturly being an ateist.
Beside from that, I think a church must be beautifull, perfect in detail and strong in expression.
without reading the whole thread i think there is a difference in an agnostic and an atheist taking on the problem of a church. most of the agnostics i have ever known were either undecided about god(s), skeptical, or simply neutral. (i always think of corbusier's comment about ronchamp here, where he says something to the effect of "i have never known the miracle of faith but i have known the miracle of space". something like that, someone please correct me as i know the quote is wrong.)
whereas the atheists i have known have been as damn sure in their hearts that there isn't a god(s) as i am damn sure in my heart that there is.
so yes, it's a valid question: do you take a commission from someone/for something that in your heart-of-hearts you know is wrong (or maybe just bullshit)? and i think that personal integrity says: refuse the commission. in my opinion the agnostic maybe can do the church but the atheist shouldn't in order to maintain their principles.
of course the self-same corbusier designed for the vichy french and tried to design for the soviets. johnson was a nazi lover. gehry changed his name from goldberg because it sounded too jewish. rem is working for the communists in china. som built for the saudis. all kinds of instances where, if pressed, the architect might concede that they had taken a commission that they simply disagreed with.
personally i think we all have some commissions we wouldn't take and all for our own reasons. thread starter.
Ah yes. I should have searched the subject. I feel like a big hypocrit.
French, are you saying you prefer being agnostic over atheist? They are quite different, though while I suppose an agnostic could lean much more toward dismissing god(s) an atheist just plain makes it a non-issue. It is not a question for the atheist.
It is weird. When I was questioning the existence of god I didn't even realize I was an agnostic. I thought you had to decide to be an agnostic. Technically the second you question existence you become agnostic. Now I understand how broad agnosticism is, though I feel that in my case being agnostic had mostly to do shaking the idea/issue of there being a god or force at all. That's a tough one to reprogram - "If there is no god, what is ther?" The answer for the agnostic is simple, but man it can cause a headache: nothing. The question does not exist.
Simil-post! Ha. ochona, I agree with the above statements that an atheist could have great interest in a religious project if seen as a study or design challenge of religion, rituals, culture, etc.
Oh, to update you all, I have been down with a broken leg and have had time to think about anything and everything that distracts me from the restless leg syndrome and just plane restlessness.
i think agnostic is more a self-identifier than simply being a skeptic or occasionally questioning the existence of god, for it would ludicrous for someone to go all the way through their life and NOT question the existence of god or lack thereof. i certainly know i have had a lot of doubt and on days like yesterday when some b...sorry, lady...in a tahoe implanted the imprint of the bumper of her tahoe into the side of my prius and then told the cops that i drove sideways into her car (which by the way was coming out of a private driveway)...you have to at least for a second wonder why someone let that happen.
is this true?:
agnostics don't eliminate the possibility of the existence of god, but do not attempt to believe in god because the idea of a god existing is beyond the minds of human beings...
Well, not really. Atheism is not a religion. An atheist is a person without religious belief doing a religious project. It seems disconnected and interesting as a design problem. A Christian doing a temple could be viewed as asking the architect to design for their rival - quite connected to the issues.
Where did you find that definition dammson? It completely eliminate the notion of doubt. If that's what it is, then it doesn't sound that interesting anymore.
ag·nos·tic
n.
1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
3. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning “without, not,†as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, “knowledge,†which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things†hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics†a group of his fellow intellectuals“ists,†as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,†Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.
a·the·ist
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
I am currently working on both a church (addition) and a new synagogue. I am atheist/agnostic. Architecture is architecture - we want to design in a manner that makes the users feel a certain way. Personal beliefs dont have much to do with it.
Jan 18, 06 5:49 pm ·
·
What would you call a person that doesn't believe in the existence of God, but finds it ridiculous to deny the existence of religions?
i think as a christian i could probably design a synagogue, a mosque, or a temple. but i would actually have a hard time stomaching the design of the churches of some christian denominations. they won't let me do a mormon temple probably and i don't know if i would ask. aside, the mormon tabernacle is pretty awesome; if anyone is ever in SLC on a sunday morning go to the concert. but watch out, the men in the black name tags will be out in force outside.
Strawbeary, see "Sign of the Beast" thread. I seriously did not plan for the atheist thread to coincide with my turning the number of the beast.
quondom, your statement baffles me. Religions exist. Who doesn't believe they exist? There are thousands of them out there. Maybe I am confused by your question. So I guess to answer you question: Atheist.
Jan 19, 06 11:02 am ·
·
The way I see it, believers really can't prove that God exists the same way that atheists can't really prove that God doesn't exist, thus the belief/disbelief issues cancel themselves out.
I see. So you didn't mean the existence of religions, which are totally mortal institutions. You meant the existence of God.
Jan 19, 06 11:48 am ·
·
Actually garpike, you're wrong because I do mean the existence of religions. You can't prove that religions are totally mortal institutions the same way you can't prove the nonexistence of God. The reality remains, however, that religions exist whether anyone can prove the existence of God or not.
Where I am most atheist myself is on the issue of separaton of Church and State, even though I can't prove that an actual separation of Church and State can actually exist.
On the issue of designing a religious building, it would be foolish, for me at least, to outright ignore all precedence on the matter.
How could you possibly mean religion? A religion is a belief system. They exist. It is a clear fact that people have beliefs. I still think you mean another word in place of religion. If we are mortals and we have a beliefs we call religions wouldn't it be fair to say a religion is a belief held only, and I really mean only, mortals??? Gods don't have religions...
city buses here in ABQ are currently selling bus board advertising space to a local christian business directory - i wish i could remember the name.
i wonder if they put fish in their advertisements? preaching to the choir?
not so many are bachelors because of a philosophical position, mind. and we all (theoretically) grew up with a family of some persuasion or other...
oddly i would feel very uncomfortable about designing an abortion clinic even though i believe in the right to use one and have been a raving atheist since the age of 8. but i would love to do a church.
i have been to the mountain and seen thu burnin bush. he spoke to me in a thunderin voice that made me tremble in my snake skin boots. the next mornin i woke up and found that i had eatin the damn worm again.
Jan 21, 06 7:53 pm ·
·
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why would designing a religious structure be any different than designing any other type of building? you don't have to be a scientist to design a lab or a doctor to design a hospital. like any other project type, you just have to research the precedents and understand the needs of the client.
Well, he didn't mean it's impossible...
garpike, what about you? Are you a christian? If so, do you design a church only through what it means to you or through what it means to others?
i'd love to design a church or a mosque or a synagouge or a temple.
which i did but just as projects no built.
i like gehry's church in loyola law school. he is jewish.
bryan and French, I am an atheist. I was raised Protestant, but lurched into atheism during my teens. My religious upbringing, I imagine, would only affect my design by providing me with a little knowledge - not so much something I would feel passionate about just because I feel connected.
I have never design a church. I guess I am trying to generate a conversation about how others have gotten into their work, when it doesn't necessarily fit what they believe. bryan, I am not sure if it is as common that a devout anti-science fundamentalist Christian would feel upset about designing a laboratory. I think the issues are not as simply stated, but if you'd like to elaborate, I am all ears... er eyes.
garpike. you can comment if you like. I was wondering if you're atheism was decided more on a rejection of religion and, in that case, religion's perversion of God, or just God in general.
mjh00c, just god. I would not consider myself agnostic. Organized religion has its own problems, which is a can or worms I'd rather not open.
i'm an atheist and i think that a church would be a really fun design problem...as an atheistic architect, i don't have all of the baggage and preconceptions that for instance a catholic architect would have when designing a catholic church/cathedral...for me it would be a chance to really study all of the ritualistic aspects of what goes on in a church and then really let the program develop out of that research and in turn let the form be generated by that program...
but then again, this sorta brings up the question of "would you accept a commission from an organization that advocates something that you find repulsive?"
for example...
if you're pro-life, would you design an abortion clinic?
if you're anti-gun, would you design the NRA headquarters?
if you're atheist, would you design a church?
architphil, I share your interest in studying the ritualistic aspects.
At first I think, naively, that an atheist would not have a problem with a church in the way a pro-lifer an abortion clinic, but you never know. Are there any of those architects here that would be absolutely put off buy a church project?
Hi
I think a designer or architect, shuld first challance his or her own attribute. Ask if you realy are in the possion to realy contribuate acturly being an ateist.
Beside from that, I think a church must be beautifull, perfect in detail and strong in expression.
You can be an atheist and not feeling religion is repulsive... you just don't believe.
You can also be agnostic. I like this one better...
see the agnostic design of spiritual space
without reading the whole thread i think there is a difference in an agnostic and an atheist taking on the problem of a church. most of the agnostics i have ever known were either undecided about god(s), skeptical, or simply neutral. (i always think of corbusier's comment about ronchamp here, where he says something to the effect of "i have never known the miracle of faith but i have known the miracle of space". something like that, someone please correct me as i know the quote is wrong.)
whereas the atheists i have known have been as damn sure in their hearts that there isn't a god(s) as i am damn sure in my heart that there is.
so yes, it's a valid question: do you take a commission from someone/for something that in your heart-of-hearts you know is wrong (or maybe just bullshit)? and i think that personal integrity says: refuse the commission. in my opinion the agnostic maybe can do the church but the atheist shouldn't in order to maintain their principles.
of course the self-same corbusier designed for the vichy french and tried to design for the soviets. johnson was a nazi lover. gehry changed his name from goldberg because it sounded too jewish. rem is working for the communists in china. som built for the saudis. all kinds of instances where, if pressed, the architect might concede that they had taken a commission that they simply disagreed with.
personally i think we all have some commissions we wouldn't take and all for our own reasons. thread starter.
Ah yes. I should have searched the subject. I feel like a big hypocrit.
French, are you saying you prefer being agnostic over atheist? They are quite different, though while I suppose an agnostic could lean much more toward dismissing god(s) an atheist just plain makes it a non-issue. It is not a question for the atheist.
It is weird. When I was questioning the existence of god I didn't even realize I was an agnostic. I thought you had to decide to be an agnostic. Technically the second you question existence you become agnostic. Now I understand how broad agnosticism is, though I feel that in my case being agnostic had mostly to do shaking the idea/issue of there being a god or force at all. That's a tough one to reprogram - "If there is no god, what is ther?" The answer for the agnostic is simple, but man it can cause a headache: nothing. The question does not exist.
Simil-post! Ha. ochona, I agree with the above statements that an atheist could have great interest in a religious project if seen as a study or design challenge of religion, rituals, culture, etc.
Oh, to update you all, I have been down with a broken leg and have had time to think about anything and everything that distracts me from the restless leg syndrome and just plane restlessness.
kind of like asking if a christian can design a temple isn't it?
i think agnostic is more a self-identifier than simply being a skeptic or occasionally questioning the existence of god, for it would ludicrous for someone to go all the way through their life and NOT question the existence of god or lack thereof. i certainly know i have had a lot of doubt and on days like yesterday when some b...sorry, lady...in a tahoe implanted the imprint of the bumper of her tahoe into the side of my prius and then told the cops that i drove sideways into her car (which by the way was coming out of a private driveway)...you have to at least for a second wonder why someone let that happen.
is this true?:
agnostics don't eliminate the possibility of the existence of god, but do not attempt to believe in god because the idea of a god existing is beyond the minds of human beings...
Well, not really. Atheism is not a religion. An atheist is a person without religious belief doing a religious project. It seems disconnected and interesting as a design problem. A Christian doing a temple could be viewed as asking the architect to design for their rival - quite connected to the issues.
Where did you find that definition dammson? It completely eliminate the notion of doubt. If that's what it is, then it doesn't sound that interesting anymore.
I looked it up in wikipedia and i'm trying to see whether my interpretation of agnosticism is correct...for all you agnostics
wikipedia agnisticism
*agnosticism
I am a deist and think that designing a place for Atheists to meet would be a fun project
Did someone say somethng about Temple architecture?
from www.dictionary.com
ag·nos·tic
n.
1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
3. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning “without, not,†as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, “knowledge,†which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things†hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics†a group of his fellow intellectuals“ists,†as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,†Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.
a·the·ist
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
+q - would any "secular" space be a place for athiests to meet?
I am currently working on both a church (addition) and a new synagogue. I am atheist/agnostic. Architecture is architecture - we want to design in a manner that makes the users feel a certain way. Personal beliefs dont have much to do with it.
What would you call a person that doesn't believe in the existence of God, but finds it ridiculous to deny the existence of religions?
i think as a christian i could probably design a synagogue, a mosque, or a temple. but i would actually have a hard time stomaching the design of the churches of some christian denominations. they won't let me do a mormon temple probably and i don't know if i would ask. aside, the mormon tabernacle is pretty awesome; if anyone is ever in SLC on a sunday morning go to the concert. but watch out, the men in the black name tags will be out in force outside.
garpike, your post count is at 666 right now.
Strawbeary, see "Sign of the Beast" thread. I seriously did not plan for the atheist thread to coincide with my turning the number of the beast.
quondom, your statement baffles me. Religions exist. Who doesn't believe they exist? There are thousands of them out there. Maybe I am confused by your question. So I guess to answer you question: Atheist.
The way I see it, believers really can't prove that God exists the same way that atheists can't really prove that God doesn't exist, thus the belief/disbelief issues cancel themselves out.
I see. So you didn't mean the existence of religions, which are totally mortal institutions. You meant the existence of God.
Actually garpike, you're wrong because I do mean the existence of religions. You can't prove that religions are totally mortal institutions the same way you can't prove the nonexistence of God. The reality remains, however, that religions exist whether anyone can prove the existence of God or not.
Where I am most atheist myself is on the issue of separaton of Church and State, even though I can't prove that an actual separation of Church and State can actually exist.
On the issue of designing a religious building, it would be foolish, for me at least, to outright ignore all precedence on the matter.
How could you possibly mean religion? A religion is a belief system. They exist. It is a clear fact that people have beliefs. I still think you mean another word in place of religion. If we are mortals and we have a beliefs we call religions wouldn't it be fair to say a religion is a belief held only, and I really mean only, mortals??? Gods don't have religions...
definition
Then please prove that God's don't have religions. The definition you offer is not a proof that Gods don't have religions.
Ok. Please do tell. What is a religion? Is it not a belief of a human?
Why am I still typing???
Oh, that's right. I am sitting, injured, bored out of my skull... getting more and more bored. I need to get off of this thread fast.
quondom, i am as baffled now by your reply as i am by the pictures you post.
is it just me?
vigggo, I'll gladly try to answer your question, but you give me nothing specific to go on. You're not being too clear yourself.
vigggo, I'll gladly try to answer your question, but you give me nothing specific to go on. You're not being too clear yourself.
quondam's point is to ask "What religion does god believe in?" One can't prove or disprove.
my $1000 question is "What does god say in confessional?"
let's say Brad Pitt = God, if Pitt is God and Jolie is his Goddess, who would they worship and why? what is their religion? who is their savior?
i'm over on the atheist side of the dodge-ball court.
city buses here in ABQ are currently selling bus board advertising space to a local christian business directory - i wish i could remember the name.
i wonder if they put fish in their advertisements? preaching to the choir?
I hate when businesses put the fish near their logo - or in there logo for that matter.
When comissioned, how do us bachelors create residential projects? Tell your stories.
not so many are bachelors because of a philosophical position, mind. and we all (theoretically) grew up with a family of some persuasion or other...
oddly i would feel very uncomfortable about designing an abortion clinic even though i believe in the right to use one and have been a raving atheist since the age of 8. but i would love to do a church.
i have been to the mountain and seen thu burnin bush. he spoke to me in a thunderin voice that made me tremble in my snake skin boots. the next mornin i woke up and found that i had eatin the damn worm again.
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