where are you? in Los Angeles, because of all the hillside requirements, I'd say 6-8 months minimum for schematics/DD & 4-6 months minimum for CDs - given waiting for survey, soils reports, engineering & permitting...realistically you'd be looking at a year and a half from start of design to start of construction at least, and that's if the clients are fairly responsive (could be done faster, but I've never seen it happen) and the structural corrections were reasonable. Don't forget to factor in time to find contractors & get bids, if you're doing CA - another 3 months at least unless the client has someone lined up in advance.

This varies widely from firm to firm.
The majority of the firms I've worked in would usually spread a project like this over the course of 6 months to a year - but certainly it would not be their only project and it would probably be worked on in dribs and drabs. Often this depends a lot on the client needing time to go away and "process" drawings, then come back weeks to months later with comments. Things usually speed up in the CD phase.

By contrast, occasionally I've worked with some extremely tight schedules - for instance schematics and design development all rolled into one 6-week timeframe, then a full CD set in another 5 to 6 weeks. If you choose to attempt this sort of schedule you should caution the client that wait times for zoning approvals, lead times for some project elements (windows, casework, whatever) and various other factors may stretch the schedule regardless of how quickly the design and drawings might be completed.

yes...LA...
6-8 months of design time seems like a lot. Although i understand waiting for all other consultants is going to increase the time...

For a proposal how would you compute that in hours... 40, 90, 180 hours? more? for design...

I'll add that while this time frame is possible, as a result of compacting the CD phase you will probably spend many more hours resolving things during construction via construction sketches and the like. So add some time into your CA fee accordingly.

faster slave faster

jas, just speaking from experience... we've been working on our own residential projects in southern CA for about 5 years - all private clients, not development projects, where the clients are very invested personally in the design, hence the long timeframe.
As an example, we've got a project under construction in Coronado (small city near San Diego) that's about 3,500 sq.ft. - total gut of existing house plus addition, pool, pool house, etc. The project is on a flat lot with some minor zoning complications (we had the house designated historic & had to get extra approvals but it was fairly painless) - the clients have been extremely easy to deal with, the engineer was great, and no soils report was required - that one took us a year from start of schematics to having the permit in hand, and construction started right away because the clients had a contractor picked out from the beginning...
In addition, the Bldg Dept. in LA is crazy when it comes to hillside (my opinion anyway) - things can go much faster in the flatlands but inevitably there are issues with lot irregularities & complexities for hillside projects - often relating to parking requirements and dedications owned by the city for fire lanes/future street widening, as well as sprinklering/water pressure. Consultants are very busy - we've found it takes 3-4 months to get a soils report no matter what you do, and the engineer can't really work effectively without it - plus you ideally want some schematic design done before you have the soils report done (otherwise the city won't accept it and you'll end up paying twice for it).
We charge a percentage of actual construction cost - no way in hillside that I would do anything for a flat fee, and even engineers are reluctant to do hillside projects for a flat fee. After working on 3 of them, we've decided we'll charge more than our ususal percentage if another one comes along. Recently we had some friends that bought a lot in Echo Park and wanted us to design a nice modern house for them - we more or less talked them out of it once we explained the potential headaches, cost uncertainties and timeframe (2 years at the very minimum until the house would be built - and we do design/build) - they sold the lot. Anyway, don't want to discourage you - just be ready for headaches and make sure to explain you haven't done a hillside project in LA... one last word of caution - one of our first design projects was a hillside project, that tunred into a nightmare, threats of lawsuits, etc. - all because the zoning issues are so complicated with hillside and the city makes it very difficult to determine in advance what is required (you really won't know until you submit the plans - no matter how many times you go down there to talk to them in advance).

nice vado - nice Rudolph!


Best of luck to you.
. . . I have nothing of value to add here.

Wow - Cali sounds terrible. Chicago is flat but slow, and thats just permit bottleneck at city hall. Were doing a high-end 2500 s.f. addition in the western burbs, slight slope, to an existing 2800 s.f. 2 story masonry - 5 weeks for schematics while simulataneously doing product selections and on the go pricing ( excel is wonderful) / We'll be in for permit at the end of feb. and will break ground in Mid-March.

First client contact was Halloween. Project completion End of June. Design-Build really truely does work like a well oiled machine - the only downside is we start with a client who brings in the last 10 isues of Southern Living, Midwest Living, Architectural Digest, Bla, Bla, Bla.....

At least they got money and NO these are classy old buildings not McMansions.

Is SoCal just a big nightmare for Architects? I mean - When a project is strung out that long how do you guys handle draws from client? Once every 6 months?

Hmmm, maybe my hunch that the entertainment industry screws up the clients is right on - I can't fathom having clients make decisions that fast. Every job we have, people change their minds right to the last minute (including one I'm working on now - they want to be in by the end of January and they're talking about changing special order tile, moving plumbing fixtures, and can't decide on paint colors - meanwhile the floor is just going down now and I'm due to have a baby in 3 weeks, haha).
But you're breaking ground mid-march and the project will be done by the end of June? Must be a different scenario with the subs, or you have a huge crew that does it all? We bill once a month or so during design and every 2 weeks during construction - generally don't have a problem getting paid except sometimes at the very end of construction...
but yeah, i think so-cal is a nightmare - heard San Francisco is similar as well... I'm convinced things would be easier if we moved away from the movie money, but maybe it's just that the grass is greener?

Our clients are typically corporate types and financial guys who have a disdain for prolonged indesicion. Generally we sell residential up front as contractor lead design build becuse they seem to react to the contractor's word over the architect, even if the architect has valid points. I think its a "preconditioning" to fear designers. But since we are the contractor, and have design in mind from the get go, its seemless process.

We are also unusual in that our average carpenter is 45 years old. These are experianced guys in evey type of construction from high rise to log cabin and our area is full of capable sub contractors, typically old family businesses going back to the 40's and 50's, which makes all the difference in the world.

We still get burned sometimes by the changing of the minds - sometimes were going so fast clients do get a little upset that their products are already delivered but as salesmen, experianced architects and builders can make them feel good about their decisions and move on.

R.A. - Are you working for the stars? Or those in the same league finacially as the stars?

Evil...still missin' John G.?
He's still swinging a hammer (or snippin).
Wolff can still turn off a radio from 75 feet with a block of wood.
They both say Hello.

I'd like to add that the clients we have - although they may be averse to more cutting edge designs, they're nononsense approach sometimes amazes me on how it leads to very simple and elegant solutions - almost functional modernist floor plans with traditional, rich materials. It leads to a reserved simplicity whith vast open floor plans inside - listening to the client can help guid you even if they themselves dont know where to go. Heres a couple examples....

Before


After

I liked those guys - I dont think anyone else here really cared. These are tuff dudes to work for over here - One guy drinks 7 pots of coffee a day - no food. Theyre here at 5am and leave at 7.30 or 8. You feel guilty about putting in a 10 or 11 hour day only. I hope B.W. is doing well with his outfit.

I would recommend Grover Hollingsworth to do the soils reports, I think the last one my old office got from them they had turned around in well under a month. The hillside residential (different project) that I was working on they did about a half dozen addendums and revisions since the client kept moving his pool addition further and further out onto the hillside. Every one was back to me usually within a week of requesting it. Only problem was the city takes 2+ months to review those reports....

I would agree with Rudolph on the time frame. My experience with clients has been the same, no matter how many drawings and renderings you show them they are going to try and make changes once on site. And I would recommend, unless there are some really good reasons, that you just demo the existing house. Depending on when the original was constructed there could be several foundation upgrades, the city could require you to do all kinds of things, leave existing joists in some areas, not in others, etc. All these things that can slow the process down. At some point you might be standing there looking at nothing but studs and wonder why you've gone to all the trouble to keep a house that the owners weren't so fond of in the first place.

evilp, are you hiring?!? It sounds like a dream work environment. Very nice remodel project, thanks for posting it.

Speaking of being preconditioned to fear the designer...there is a tempest in a teapot here in Indy over the Wishard Hospital Guild's annual Decorators Show House fundraising event. The event was to be held in the Governor's residence this year - but it has been cancelled due to the State's unwillingness to let the designers do what they want in the house -even though every designer has a contract stating that at the end of the event the rooms are to be emptied of any furnishings/finishes the Owner does not wish to purchase and repainted a mutually agreed-upon color.

Every bit of press on this topic (a lot of it lately) has painted the "designers" as a bunch of emotional divas who throw temper tantrums when they don't get their way. My partner has an article on the editorial page of the Star today rationally explaining the circumstances and how the State is not reading what the contract actually says. And yet simulatanously there is a letter to the editor complaining about how a charitable event had to be cancelled due to "designer's whim".

Grrrrrr! Sorry to so blatantly thread highjack (yet again) but I really needed to get out a rant about this. OK, thanks - back to work on the paying client jobs!

i wouldn't want to hire an architect who works on my bedroom/kitchen addition design for a year and tells me i can't make any decisions. whose money is being spent? hillside or not..

We just tell them have to decide in 4 weeks. Sometimes they can change - sometimes not. Depends on the job. You know - its really about the client - read them and get them what they want even if they dont know it.

this isnt a bathroom remodel. This is how to save 300K worth of existing structure when everyone else told you tear it down, and you walk away with a 1.3 million dollar home.

nor, i want to be someone's architect who expects me to keep designing their remodeling job over a year. no thanks.what if i miss that masterpiece oportunity while working on their tile edging detail.. oh no. sorry pal and palettes.

then again never say never in this business..
i personally heard frank gehry saying 'i'll never design a museum' after loosing moca in los angeles to arata izosaki..

1.5 years from start of design to start of construction?!? Guess I've never done a house, but that seems incredibly long considering I've done custom commerical jobs infinitely larger in a shorter time frame. Is DD/CD time so long due to a small support staff? Or is the rumor that residental clients are just painful to work with true? I'm with abra on this one.

Evil,
You are forgetting do disclose that your company is reknowned as one of the premier structural improvisation outfits in the country...I'm sure that comes with a price. Not many crews are as ambitious, and successful, as yours. Alot of guys walk away from what you do. Some of that bowstring retro-fitting you do is mind-boggling.

Thanks abra, you responded to yourself! I don't even have to rebut. Now I know why you have that advice column, so even handed!

Of course it's always the clients ultimate decision, but it's frustrating when you spend 6 months on changes only to have them go back to the original drawings! Much like EP was saying, it's about getting them what they want, even when they don't know they want it.

hard to get an apples to apples comparison: i did a fairly complicated renovation and additions to a one story house, built as a dairy in the '20s. two rooms were extended and two rooms added, site development both front and back (terraces, arcade connecting to garage), and the renovation touched almost all rooms of the house. added about 800 sf; final product approximately 4000 sf.

6 mos working solo from beginning of design until release of cds, including time for review/revisions/approval by the local architectural review board.

Poz- I think your exagerating on the renowned part. But absolutely correct on the most people walk away part. Theres just no more carpenters willing to think - and worse - the time frame for this type of structural carpentry is getting shorter - essentially there no time to build a temporary structure in another then take it down again. Its just too expensive to do for most projects unless you can convince them theyre throwing away a ton of money. Its a nightmare and I want to wake up.

You're fighting the good fight, evilplatypus. Keep it up as long as you don't hurt yourself doing it!

Perhaps it has to do with Clients' schedules here - also I think with the atmosphere of 'what do my neighbors have' and 'I want what they have'... we don't deal with stars, more behind the scenes people (editors, licensing people, etc.), but people are very concerned about what other think, and they just cannot make a decision to save their lives. We have tons of meetings with the clients and push very hard to advance the design and have the process move quickly, but in most cases it just doesn't. I pray we get better with enforcing this over time - and some of it has to do with the fact that we're perceived as very young and some of the clients don't have the faith in us that they might if we were much older or had famous clients - only time will tell. The most annoying thing is that at the end of the project they're always saying 'oh, now I understand why you wanted to do it that way', or 'we should have just let you pick everything from the beginning', arggghhhh!
It seems to be worse with the younger clients - because we are a young firm ourselves a lot of our clients are in their thirties and have never done a construction project - the good ones also have more money than you would expect (which allows us to do what we do, but also creates problems). Often the budget starts at a certain number, and as the project goes on the scope keeps increasing and more money magically appears, though there's a constant desire to have the more expensive finish but not pay for it... I imagine that's a common link with remodelling everywhere, but perhaps it's worse here because there is such a large sub-section of people who make ridiculous amounts of money and can afford to spend $500/sf on a remodel (not that we get those jobs yet, ah dreaming...)
We have had better luck with older clients who are more adept at decision making, and perhaps know what they want more as well.
At this point I'm more or less a one person operation, and that has something to do with the long time frames, but really it's more a case of not being able to pin clients down, and of them not having any idea what they want things to look like at the beginning of the project... With renovations, we usually spend quite a bit of time convincing people that they don't want to add a UFO on to the side of their crafstman house, for example. We also have to explain over and over that there are code requirements and you can't just do what you want. We've had to bring incredulous clients to meetings with bldg dept officials because they can't belive they aren't allowed to put a kitchen in to their guest house, or that the house has to conform to energy regulations and they can't make the entire thing out of glass. You wonder why they bother to hire an architect in the first place...

Also, in terms of the sub-contractors on construction projects, we've definitely found that the older guys work out better. Unfortunately, everyone is so busy here that the more experienced and reputable subs are booked up for 6 months or longer - sometimes they'll squeeze us in but a lot of times we just can't wait. Everyone is charging ridiculous amounts because of the volume of work - and the cleints often want us to go with unlicensed subs (which we won't do) or the low bidders because they can't believe what they're having to pay for things (fair enough - it really has gotten out of hand - we're hoping for a bit of a slowdown honestly, though it's probably not good for our business in the long run).

Rudolph, are my clients building houses moonlighting with you?

As for time frame - since my last post we ironically just laid out a drawing time frame for another project weve been meeting with owners on - Startded Schematics in Dec. From today - DD set in 2 weeks, Final DD set 1/30, 3 day review, Permit set submission 2/22, giving 4-6 weeks for review, Break ground end of March.

That's a long time to go without sleep....

Scope Of Work and complexity of the project. That's what will determine the time frame. In addition to all prerequiste investigations and analysis mentioned above. A current project of mine is 300k interior renovations to a residence
The documents required to obtain a building permit and provide minimal information for contruction estimates took a week or two

schematics took a month

permit was gotten in a day.

Not every element was designed before construction got underway. So to some degree we are fast tracking the project. There have been changes but they were minor

Demolition started in Nov and we expect the client to move in march 1st.

My client and I are sharing construction management duties
So far everything is working out.

thats very reasonable time spent steven.

i should've add before, project time has a lot to do with how you establish a relationship with the clients.
do they see you as an architect who will lead them thru the process, apply the aesthetic talent and technical knowledge and know how, for their needs, rly and trust your design decisions, spending their money well and sensibly, steer them clear of the things with potential disasters? if you've established that relationship, you will end up a great project with happy clients who will recommend and respect you for the rest of their lives.
or,
they hired you to do what they can do (!) but never have time to do it themselves because they make soo much money doing what they do.

second group of clients are the so called clients from hell. they will knock you out, walk all over you and after doing their project against all the pain and agony, when asked their architect's name, they will say "oh the architects name was abra something. he basically drew what we told him to do".

this conversation actually took a place in a totally modern designed art collector's house in orange county. only the name changed to protect the hardworking and way under appreciated architect.

liberty there was an issue bout some wallpapa...

Vado,
Not fair, distracting me with that estrous swelling.
Is it me or does that ass look like an inverted skull?
To my fellow baboon pimps - that shit is nasty, no matter what you all think.