have you checked with your university? they can be an invaluable resource- that is where I have made contacts. i know of a friend who interned with asymptote as an undergrad junior- they are located in nyc- i am not sure about the pay though

I interned for Lot-ek and another friend interned for Lynn Gaffney Architects in nyc. I was not paid (got free lunch and occasional dinner though), she was paid. We both had an awesome experience though.

I say you have a better chance of getting paid with bigger firms. Like Gensler or SOM.

regarding internships in general....... do interns generally get paid? isn't not getting paid unethical????

or is it ethical?

thanks!

Yes, it is unethical to hire and overwork naive (albeit enthusiastic) college students and not pay them.

Welcome to the profession!

and what exactly is unethical about it? (so i know what to say when offered the unpaid position?)

thanks!

dont work for free. youre getting taken advantage of.

lonunu,

you interned at Lot-ek? How was it? Why didn't they pay you?

Archcity:

Well, certainly don't accuse them of being unethical in the course of receiving a job offer. I would just tell them that you would have to receive a salary in order to support yourself. There's nothing wrong with that. And if they can't/won't, then find somewhere that will.

Unless of course you're one of those magic people with trust funds/independent wealth who doesn't care about being paid, (there are a lot of those here in ny and there's nothing wrong with that either) in which case go for it but recognize that it's still technically abuse of power.

That being said, there are lots of great offices in new york that will pay you for your time, not take advantage of you, and provide you with a great experience.

Lots of places are hiring at the moment too. It's a little close to summer to look I'd think, but it's a good time in general for new hires. Good luck.

Lewis.Tsurumaki.Lewis
great firm.
check them out

stegosaurus,
thanks for all your comments.
but what does

"...It's a little close to summer to look I'd think, but it's a good time in general for new hires...."

mean?
do you mean firms are already accepting applications for summer internships?

mjh00c, What was your experience with LTL? What are their expectations of some one who is say... a recent undergrad? (soory if i'm hi-jacking.)

stegosaurus:
you said: "still technically abuse of power."

ok ok so i will not tell them, in the course of being offered an unpaid job, that they are unethical, but, for my own knowledge.....what exactly is unethical about it? what is this "abuse of power" ???

can u spell it out for me. i thank you so much. (intuitively, i know it is an abuse, but why exactly?)
thanks

archinthecity...

Making money off the work of someone else, and then not compensating them for it, is generally called "slavery". It is taking advantage of, in other words CHEATING, them. On the part of the employee who accepts such abuse... his acceptance of it legitimatizes the practice, on top of which it keeps other deserving people out of a job. If no one accepted an unpaid position, the firm would be forced to figure out a way to pay its employees, thus preserving the job market for everyone.

Unethical all around. Mean and petty. I hope I never become so blinded by hubris that I believe the mere gift of being in my presence for part of a 9-5 day is enough compensation for someone toiling to make me profits.

I think if you're actually enthusiastic and talented, the firm will end up paying you [even if they don't immediately offer you money] because they will care about keeping you...

and if a firm doesn't care if they make you a slave and you never come back... well, maybe then you really NEED the extra hours to get yourself to a place where your skills and experience make up for the lack of something else to impress a firm.

myriam is right on the money.

Once I was wondering, actually i am still wondering, why anyone would, more like, COULD work for free... and I actually asked a person who did just that. Then that person answered me with a question, "how is it different from going to school and getting credits?"

I guess you can look at it that way, too, like summer school, except they are making PROFIT off of your work!!! (oh, nevermind, sometimes I feel that my school is doing just the same....sigh~*)

The problem is, some people (including me) just can't afford to work unpaid, even if it's just for the summer, and even if there's a remote possibility that our enthusiasm and hard work might actually pay off at the end.

This whole unpaid internship thing is creating a whole class of under-privileged people that otherwise are not particularly so in any other aspects. And this, regardless of ethics, pisses me and a lot of people off. It's also about feelings, guys.

Hell, I think we should make a list of firms that don't pay and boycott them. I guess LOT/EK is automatically included? Might I add SHoP? (Let me know if it isn't true.) Who else?

Lizok... I don't see why any potential employer would respect you if they saw on your resume that you had accepted to be paid nothing for your work. Moreover, they would be tempted to (and might unconciously) offer you a lower salary, knowing that clearly you're not concerned with compensation.

Working for free is NOT a good resume-builder. Think of it this way... a lot of times in life you are considered worth what you BELIEVE you are worth. Think of the craigslist sales example: if you want to get rid of something fast on craigslist, list it as for sale for $20 or some nominal amount; if you list it as "free", trust me, you will get no one interested. People assume that if it's free, it must be worthless. But they'll pay some nominal amount for the same item if that's how it's listed. Now, if you go into a firm with a resume with a couple paid jobs on it--even if they're lowly drafting jobs--you're going to look both more confident and more worthy than someone who's got one firm on there where they worked for nothing. Frankly, as a potential employer, it would indicate low self-esteem, to me. I don't care if you're working for Tadao Ando. You should demand payment for the work that you do, or you are you saying you believe your work, and you, are worthless.

Oh - by "...It's a little close to summer to look I'd think, but it's a good time in general for new hires...." I mean that there's a lot of work in new york at the moment and a lot of places are looking for new employees. By that though, I do mean "at the moment". It is too early to tell about summer. But I don't see any reason why things should change in the next four months.

Myriam: Nicely said. Couldn't have put it better.

I'm still unconvinced why working for free is unethical. If I knowingly agree to the situation, why should I not exchange my service for a great experience? Who is hurt in the process? Obviously, not everyone can afford to take part in such an arrangement, but isn't that the reality of capitalism?

santa monica,
you're not going to find ethical guidance inside capitalism.
but if you want to give of your time (your only value in a capitalistic system) to assist those who control the means of production by helping them create capital for themselves....and you don't feel like a rube doing so....then do so.

Having worked for a while, but without a license, I now know employers who are licensed architects MUST pay you according to the AIA code. Even Brad Pitt is being paid by Frank O. So if a firm tries to get you to work for no compensation, they are taking advantage of their position and reputation, don't feel bad to walk away.
By the way, there are a great deal of good small firms in NYC. LTL is good, and you will be paid (I had a couple of friends work there before grad school) and SHoP is really nice (very selective, like the Ivy Leaguers) and Meier is good (six months mandatory).
It is a tough market, but don't let them tell you your work is not worth compensation!

We can shout about ethics all day, but let's refer to the actual AIA Code of Ethics, as pmic suggests. It says: "ES 5.2: Members should provide their associates and employees with a suitable working environment, compensate them fairly, and facilitate their professional development."

So the AIA leaves it to the employer and employee to agree on what is fair compensation, right?