how often do you have them? sometimes I see how little design matters to most people, and how little value is attached to it, and how subjective and debatable its results are, and I just stop giving a crap. This happens about once a day now.
Yet, it's not like we're doing paintings or sculpture, where you don't really need a customer in order to express yourself... to do architecture somewhere other than on paper, you usually need a client and users.
i recently visited an exhibition at the Cleveland Museum of Art on "The Arts and Crafts Movement" ... i was struck how similar the problems back in the late 1800s / early 1900s are to ours today ...
those folks thought it would be a good idea to work together to "elevate the public taste" and they produced a lot of stuff that holds very broad appeal 100+ years later ... it's wonderful stuff
threads like this depress me (actually, they disgust me) because they convey this "screw it, i'm worthless, i'm a victim and i'm going to throw in the towel" ... come on people, get a backbone ... stop whining and fix the fucking problem
i'm damn proud to be an architect ... i take every possible opportunity to discuss my craft and my art with laypeople and i try to help them understand what we do and how we can make their lives better ... i volunteer with aia to work on public awareness initiatives ... i want to be successful in these endeavors and i'm willing to get off my ass and out of this damn discussion group from time to time to actually do something ...
I agree that at least 80% of the folks out there have bad taste, and that sucks. But as paperboy points out, it's not all about accolades and others. Some of it has to be for yourself. Personally, when I design something I love and still love it years later, that's happiness and satisfaction I can't imagine getting anywhere else.
Make yourself happy. The future is yours, so take advantage of your youth and find a way to make a living doing what makes you happy. If that makes someone else happy too, then you're a great success.
Life is all about balance. This is true in professional and personal life. You have to balance things or you'll never be happy. Don't rely on one source for satisfaction (i.e. don't rely on one job for everything you need - which most do).
It takes more effort than just showing up at a job and doing what you're told, but if you make your future yours, you'll eventually find what you want.
And listen to BlueGoose. You have to do extra things to get what you want, it ain't gonna be handed to you.
i dunno, i couldn't do anithing else, i love almost every part of it. there are other things i like, i sometimes wish i was a bass player in kyuss, but the band doesn't exist anymore, so that's not an option.
i agree with what bluegoose said, but also, if you don't like this stuff enough, you should get out of it. if you do, stick with it. is that easy!
1. If you don't have neighbors, crank up your stereo and amp and play along (or nerd out, I like to call it).
2. If you do have neighbors, plug your bass into you computer and play along with mp3s though headphones.
Oh, if only you knew all the bands I have been a member of. Did you know back in the 90's I was the only white member of Living Colour? Well, maybe not the only.
Thanks for the advice, really. But I think it's wrong that we aren't compensated as much as we should be, for as sensitive, informed and hard-working as we are. And the reason we aren't compensated is that people don't give a crap about design.. moreso in India than in your countries. Its not that I'm obsessed with the creation of wealth, but the fact that society doesn't attach value to your work gives you the lingering feeling that what you do doesn't really matter.. it does for me, atleast. Its tragic, because I really love design, its been a passion for the last 4 years of my life. I love the process, the interactions, the all-nighters, the back-and-forth, the jury reviews.. but I guess I feel it doesnt give enough back to me.
ManuG..I understand your frustration and I think we all feel it sometimes but you just need to hang in there..it always seems very bleak in the begining...(beginning of your professional career I mean)
But the main question to ask yourself is are you designing only for others or is there anything you get out of it, as in... do you think you would rather be doing something else??
garpike, if that's all it takes i'm a regular member of
kyuss
refused
mastodon
motorpsycho
most bands on the 90's epitaph roster
anyway, it's a job, you enjoy the process of doing it, not the by product of appreciation.
and when yoru design will actually impact people lives, you'll get that feedback.
This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately after hearing non-architecture student friends point out tasteless, fake, empty, uncreative or otherwise meaningless buildings as "nice." We have a serious lack not of good taste but of education of design theory in this culture. I remember reading in a post this summer that people need only walk into a recently-built bank lobby (whose exterior is no doubt clad in brick with double hung windows) with it's eight foot drop ceilings and compare it to an older bank lobby of the Art Deco, Modernist or any other creative era with its soaring ceilings to understand that faux-colonialism (for example) does not make a good building--creative design, aesthetically and experientially, is what makes a good building. That having been said, this is what I'm wondering.. In schools, no matter whether you intend to become a philosopher, poet, microbiologist or custodian, our public (and private) education system mandates that you study and understand literature--not just reading, but literary periods, and so on. This is true of many fields of study, especially the arts perhaps, in school. Certainly someone whose literature education ended in tenth or twelfth grade will not have the same knowledge, understanding and expertise as a literary scholar, but there is a basic framework there. Why is there hardly--if ever--any remotely similar time given to the study of architectural design or design in general? The problem is not that people have bad taste, but that they have no taste at all, because an uneducated or ignorant taste isn't real taste--it has no comparison to make. People who are educated about design will inevitably choose buildings that make them feel good, that have something to say over buildings pretending to be two hundred years old, but devoid of meaning, characteristics or sympathy for the human experience. The built environment is the only world in which we live and if we continue to fail to educate people about the design of that world, it will continue to languish in mediocrity. That's my opinion anyay.
This all reminds me of the story about the county fair somewhere in West Virginia in the 1800's: Some young conductor played Mozart, but the crowd stood there with blank stares on their faces. But when he played "Yankee Doodle", the crowd went wild.
FLM--
This *is* a good "design era", it's just that there are shit buildings produced in *every* design era! :) Don't worry, it's not getting any worse than it has been before. You're right about education; there are a number of interesting social studies that have shown that America, for various reasons, has come to praise the "sciences" and the "scientific method" over anything else, and our educational system reflects that; in France, the humanities (for a long time) were first and foremost in schooling. This country is obsessed with being "scientific" and not necessarily artistic. It's worth fighting to change, I feel.
I don’t agree on the note that we should take the design as a way to merely satisfy our own ass***** and forget about the people who will be using our oh-so-difficult spaces that we say were "designed for them to use". Hello?!
We must remember that yes, we are the "demi-gods" of this earth and we have the power and the ability to create. But don’t you think gods worshipped from (or should I say emanated from) the middle earth are the ones who were usually born "stupid"...lets take Zeus for example...duh!
I hate the mentality that we as architects do not pay attention to what the clients (other people) are saying for they don’t have a single idea on what is best for them...HELL NOT! It’s a two-way thing, we learn from one another. They present us what they need and we’re the ones who interpret it in our own perspectives. We are mediators and we are in the service for them not the bosses.
Designing for a project is a collaboration thing that every architect must take into consideration and regard as a social thing to do by connecting their ideas and principles to what other people have in their minds.
A design that fulfills what an architect wants by injecting all his ideas and creativity into it and at the same time collaborating "some" of those ideas that his clients/other people are presenting to him is a challenging thing for us to do. Lets not forget that it’s not merely a self-expression thing, it’s also a profession.
It all gets better when you see your clients get so excited by your designs that what started out as a $300,000 kitchen renovation turns into a 1.1 million entire house gut, literally step by step as they get REALLY into it and get slowly carried away. And you watch them get hooked by architecture, curious about it, and they come back and report to you things they now notice in other buildings, and ask you so many questions, and want so much to learn what good design means, and get so excited when they start to recognize it on their own... wow. It is SO MUCH FUN to see design literally transform someone's outlook like that.
And the day that you're standing in what's going to be their TV Room with them... and they point to some bit of framing and ask you what you think of putting built-in shelves there... and you stand there for a second thinking of how to explain to them what you think, and finally you just say, "you know what, I think that you wouldn't get very much usable space out of it, and frankly, it just wouldn't look good." and they say, "we trust you, we need you to show us these things, if we're wrong." and so you follow it up with, "See how the closets form a sort of monolith in the middle of the space? If you squeezed built-ins next to it it would throw off the balance of the composition." And then you watch them, and you see in their eyes that they get it, and they say, "Oh yes yes, you're right! No shelves!"
...that is sooo nice. And then they take you out for sushi dinner, and thank you for all your thoughtfulness on their behalf, and tell you all about how they can't WAIT to live in their new space, and how glad they are that they have you designing for them.... wow.
myriam ... good post ... it's nice that you're willing to share positive experiences that reinforce the value and excitement of our work
i want to reinforce some of what Blue Goose writes above ... we're not victims here ... nor are we powerless to change public perceptions of our value to society ...
it is often said that "all politics is local" ... the same holds true with us ... we have to learn how to articulate the value of what we do in terms the average person can understand and appreciate ...
then, we have to be willing to have the conversation ... we have to be willing to go before a school board or church building committee or that guy your standing next to at a holiday party and deliver a persuasive professional case (not a personal opinion) that demonstrates how what we do can improve their lives and the lives of their constituents
if we believe, we have to stand up and and project our value in a professional manner ... otherwise, nothing will improve
I haven't heard so much tripe in ages. So all these people with such bad taste aren't allowing to you to express yourself, and when they do, they don't understand it?? Poor poor you.
I don't even know where to begin when I hear discussions like this - ooh its so exciting when you can open the eyes of someone who can afford $300,000 for a new kitchen (forgive me if you were being ironic, in that case I didn't get it) to the world of architecture! Who gives a shit!
Believe it or not, as architects, we are extremely capable of being agents of change - and there are plenty of clients out there who need all but the most basic of our skills. We are a clever bunch of people, and we waste our talents on trying to compete against each other for limited projects to market ourselves to ridiculous glossy magazines that noone will remember two years down the line - instead there are a lot of desperate situations out there that affect entire lives easily transformed by our hard work - not through navel-gazing abstraction, but simple interventions (which require a lot of skill to target and implement).
Accuse me of being a guilt mongering leftie pain in the ass, but believe me there is a lot more interesting work to do with our skills which will leave you with no room to say FUCK DESIGN, instead leave you with a feeling of being a part of substantial change.
PS No one is going to thank you for this, and you won't get any honourable mentions in any fucking magazines
I'm not really sure what you think you're attacking... If you are intrepreting my statement above of how rewarding it is to build good designs for people who appreciate it as somehow meaning that my life's goal is getting into magazines, then I can assure you, you are sadly mistaken.
I was addressing ManuG's frustration that design is not appreciated, so what's the whole point, anyway. We've all felt that way, and it sucks. So, I shared some recent positive experiences I had that reminded me that good design does, in fact, touch people's lives--exactly what you seem to hope it would do.
I don't say "Fuck Design"; design is my life. I don't ask for thanks, nor magazine awards. If you knew anything about me, or my life, you wouldn't feel the need to make a personal attack based on your perceptions of my motivations.
So, PS, maybe you can restructure your comment there into something that could be positive and helpful towards answering ManuG's original question. I'm sure you mean well, but attacking me personally isn't the best way to get your intentions across.
myriam - Thanks for the post, that was encouraging.
Shambloks - keep in mind that I'm at a time in my life where I can make a decision: stick with architecture, or leave. I appreciate and agree that architects ARE agents of change, and that there IS potential for us to affect people's lives and make a difference. But my question is - how much change? And I'm sorry, but the returns just dont satisfy me enough. Sure, we can create better cities, better living and working environments and so on, but we really aren't empowered enough to do much more than that, and aren't paid enough to make a really substantial difference in the lives of the people around us.
Let me give you an idea of what the professional situation is like in India. I'm 21, studying in an architectural school that is affiliated with an engineering university. Now, I see my engineer friends graduate and start out with salaries ranging from 250,000 rupees to 600,000 rupees a year, at the end of their fourth year of colege education. Now my architect friends, fresh out of their fifth year of architecture school, earn between 36,000 rupees and 180,000 rupees a year (depending on how 'commercial' the firm that employs them is). That isn't enough to survive on, literally speaking. Most of us, after our long sleepless nights of work, endless research and study, FIVE years of education, aren't empowered enough to pay for our own living expenses, let alone help or support others in our lives. Our engineering friends, meanwhile, get along just fine by studying for their exams about 3 days in advance, photocopying portions of text books and getting a good night's sleep every day of their four year education. And the moment these insensitive, uninformed slackers get outta college, they get paid 10x what we do. That really sucks, and speaks volumes about how much society values our work.
Here are some more comparative starting-salary figures:
Law students: 600,000 rupees - 1,200,000
Engineer INTERNS: 120,000
Journalism/Arts: 120,000 - 600,000
I might sound grumbly or bitter, but this is pretty much a consensus among the architecture students in our school, and I'm sure in most of India's architecture schools as well. Its not all about the money, its about being rewarded for the efforts you've put in, and for your capabilities. I'm not suggesting that we escalate the pay scale for architects, I'm not even suggesting that there can even BE a change of any sort. I'm just expressing my frustration. Ciao.
you gotta do what makes you happy ... if architecture makes you happy, do architecture ... if the compensation of architecture makes you unhappy, get over it, don't be an architect or work to change things
the world doesn't need another grumpy, bitter architect ... no matter how much talent you have
You must remember that when the other students aren't expressing how passionate they are about architecture, it is largely in part because they are giving up. They are becoming sheep and following the herd.
You have the ability to be different and choose not to give up. Your passion and frustration are the same. You are frustrated because you are passionate. If you choose to give up now then you are no better than the rest. However, if you decide to stick with it then you are needed in this crazy world of architecture.
You don't agree with what architecture has presented us in the past? Imagine that....... I wonder why? Perhaps you do not like the designs of the unoriginal. You don't like the track housing or the replica structures that fill the skyline. Well, if you really feel this way, then do something about it.
You have the power to change the way others look at the world. I think that an architects ability to do that in itself is AMAZING!!! If you are determined and you pursure your dream, then you will only help the architectural world.
When others on this site make negative comments towards you, they are just frustrated and don't know how to answer your problems. They think that you are one of the sheep. However, if you are truly passionate, then you will always be a separate category.
Frustration is a hard place to be in. We have all been there. We are surrounded by people that follow the crowd. It is rather depressing to watch. However, if you can think for yourself and you are planning on changing the way we look at things then you are definately doing a service to society. Don't you want to make your mark in the world? I can't imagine a better way than designing an amazing structure for someone, and having it truly suits their needs.
Don't give up.... and don't listen to the negative people. They are just pulling you down.
You do need to realize that not everyone wants to be a famous architect. If you are passionate then you probably find this hard to believe. Some people are just in the field for the label "architect" and others do it because they seriously are o.k. with being cad monkeys. Everyone plays their role in society. You will eventually need someone to do the grunt work under you when you become a great designer. So don't get mad at the people who are going to be your future employees.
it sounds like in india you have to be independently wealthy to do the job, much like europe was not so very long ago. which sucks.
i have some friends in a similar situation in south america and i don't know how they managed to start but basically they just formed an office and found clients and worked incredibly hard and are starting to make a name for themselves. they are very talented but they are in very challenging environment and had to decide to go for it, devote every ounce of their energy into their work, or give up.. i think many of their classmates gave up, but somehow these guys have persevered. sheer stubborness can be as valueable as talent.
or maybe you need to make an effort outside of the traditional route...no idea what that means, but you would know better than anyone what is possible where you are.
one question; do wages increase after a few years or will you be stuck at that level forever? if things become more sustainable after awhile it could be worth sticking out...
Forgive me for my ridiculous tone earlier, and to myriam in particular - the gist I got from this discussion were obviously wrong.
The point I meant to make is simply that I find it silly to expect any appreciation from others for what we do. By being designers, we are lucky to be in the position to be possible agents of change, and even more lucky if we can leave our mark ideologically, formally etc (and that we can then discuss amonst ourselves whether we were successful in doing it in whichever manner) - but this mark that we leave is something that is a bonus handed to us, and we should appreciate it, in whatever form it emerges as.
We are enerally a talented lot, but I simply think that we are not proactive enough - designing for the wealthy is such a limiting factor that it makes fools of our intelligence and training. Of course I admire all the successful and famous designs that I see, but there are an infinite amount of even more clever and successful design that our attention is never drawn to, and never will be, and often these are ones that are more absorbing and important.
Our lack of reward, financial or otherwise, compared to others who work less, and with less passion, intelligence, and wit, is offset by our personal satisfaction from this occupation. And this satisfaction, for me at least, is enough to never think of 'fucking design'.
And this satisfaction, I believe, is far deeper when designing and being engaged in environments where they are desperately needed. We don't have to wait to be asked to design something for a client, or competition. We have to go out and look for what needs to be more carefully thought through, or possibly even designed, and be more proactive in our work.
shambloks, thanks for the addendum and apology. I totally agree, we really do need more proactivity. I've been really intrigued (and challenged) recently by public architecture and their 1% solution. have you heard of them?
when i was a student the profs were always going on about educating the public to understand architecture and i totally bought into it. mostly because i wanted to be an architect and even architects need love. now i am inclined to believe that it is best to leave people to decide their own tastes without judgement form the more tasteful than thou set. no one likes to be condescended to.
i am not offended that my mum and dad would never hire me to do their house (they are, basically, cowboys) and i have never felt the need to teach them why they are so ignorant and why their lifestyle is so wrong (i don't for a minute believe they are wrong, btw. what they do is very cool).
nah, architecture is for the elite and by the elite whether they get there by birth or education and if the public in general is happy with wal-mart then let them have it. fixing the world for everyone's good sound nice but the only way that is possible is if you are a dictator (notice corbu liked the dictators back when). the world is much better off all messy and wal-marted. i am perfectly content to do my thing within that context.
jump, I think the comparing of the dictating of taste, which is the worst, and possibly most misguided part of our architectural education, and uncritical acceptance of walmart into our lives through some class fear of seeming to be the haters of working-class (or anyone else's) love of convenience, is completely unconnected, and dangerously so.
If a client wants tastelessness, it might hurt, but as you point out, essentially 'what they do is very cool', and really that's the case with everyone [I suppose]. But taste and fundamental discussion on politics are a gazillion miles apart.
Telling people what to do is always uncomfortable, and makes you question yourself, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. The vast majority of people don't want to be dictatorial, and rightly so.
However, 'If the public in general is happy with Walmart then let them have it'? No, no, no. How about: 'If the public in general is happy with hammering the environment into oblivion, then let them [carry on] with it.' No, its baseless to let a majority of people do something irrationally destructive just because it suits them for a brief period of time, whilst not considering anything else. Frankly, this is where the minority of intellegensia [hopefully, from time to time] kick in.
Sorry to finger-wag, but this is serious, and it's an important matter of responsibility within democracy, which is a touchy subject, as most people within a democracy don't like to be told/suggested what to do -- but actually need to be, now and again...
And the world isn't better off messy and Walmarted, it IS worse, really.
to be honest i somehow remain absurdly optimistic that our various cultures will become bored with big boxes. In the meantime i agree when things get too crazy and the environment is turning wonky because of how we live then something needs to be done. but architects discuss walmart as if it is an aesthetic offence, or a moral error that requires a handslap or a spanking, which is slightly ludicrous.
the problem of walmart is complex and needs to be responded to through politics, citizen groups, and union meetings, and...i don't know what else... but architecture is really just a speck in the mix. at least in its common meaning. and anyway the most serious imediate problem with walmart is that it has created an enormous trade deficit with china that is scary...
we (architects) are fundamentally tied to the money and the power in charge of our lives in a way that is incredibly frustrating. we are trained to do good for society as a whole, in the west at least (i think because of the influence of the bauhaus on so many western institutions) and then we go into the real world and it turns out the people with money don't care about the rest of the world at all. so we build walmart and we build aprons of parking around stupid boxes and we sometimes build quite nice things too. but we don't decide what or where or when to build.
without becoming a politician or starting an action group i think an architect can only have an effect by dealing with what is there. it isn't an uncritical approach but starts with reality, dealing WITH wal-mart rather than against it. i suppose, much as i dislike admitting it, it is the stance that Will mcdonough takes with the environment that will have the best effect. there is some education element there but in the end what he is offering is a service that the elite will pay for. i am not sure how we can use this for other issues yet but am working on it (i have worked for several years as an architect but recently have been researching urban planning isues for my phd; i am trying to find a way to address and discuss the craziness of our modern cities that doesn't resort to jim koenstler's point that "you're all acting fucking stupid so stop it! Oh and by the way the classical orders are the right style to use god damn you all to hell.", as this is in the end really not very useful).
"without becoming a politician or starting an action group i think an architect can only have an effect by dealing with what is there"
i agree that we have to be willing to take individual action ... but, it's important to remember that the aia was (is) set up to lobby on behalf of the profession ... aia can only be as effective as the support it receives from practicing architects in this country ... in politics, numbers and money are the only meaningful power ...
when was the last time you wrote your congressman regarding some issue aia was supporting (or opposing) before congress ?
it's one thing to sit on the outside (or inside) and rail against the supposed frailties of aia ... but, the truth is, aia is the only true collective voice we have ... it ain't perfect, but it is our voice
if you don't want to support aia, fine. but don't complain about being voiceless if you don't engage the institute and work toward achieving political clout
in my case it is the JIA as i am an expat architect(i work in tokyo and when i can, in london, in which case it is RIBA) and the issues are slightly different. still i grew up and studied in canada and never was impressed by the canadian version of the aia. from what i read the aia doesn't do much where you are either...
but the point i was making is that architects should not give so much credit to their profession cuz it really doesn't have as much of an impact as we are trained to believe, most of the time. we all know by now that pruitt igoe was a political failure as much as a design failure, whatever jencks might like us to think. and if we really truly want to deal with wal-mart or the environment or anything else then it has to be through political means.
failing that then i would again challenge the profession to try the Mcdonough approach and work with the things we all apparently dislike. is wal-mart bad because its inherently bad or can it be redeemed through thoughtful reconceptualisation? it might be possible if we are persistent enough, but then again we don't have the power in our hands and will never be more than advisors to those who DO wield it. that is our leverage, to be used or not. the big problem is that we are so afeared of losing our jobs that we become yes-men to the people in charge and the aia is never going to change that and neither is congress. worse, we are all in denial that this isn't the way the profession works, hence the conflict....
look ... the key issue in all of this remains: elevating the public taste ... ManuG started this whole thread by complaining "how little design matters to most people, and how little value is attached to it"
i don't do what i do for either respect or accolades ... for damn sure, i don't do it for the money ... i do what i do because i believe passionately that my knowledge, talent and skill can improve people's lives ... and make liveable communities ... i'm not shooting to become famous (necessarily) or to join the ranks of the starchitects ... i own very little black clothing
now, having said that, i need clients who "get it" ... otherwise, i'm going to live a very frustrated life and i won't accomplish what i want to accomplish
mostly, clients who "get it" aren't born ... they're made ... and, we've got to make 'em 'cause nobody else is going to do it for us
as Blue Goose says above, we've got to "stop whining and fix the fucking problem" ... i don't believe that we (the profession) are the fundamental problem ... but we ARE fundamental to SOLVING the problem ... we've got to get out there, we've got to make the case, we've got to stand up and be counted
Ok, I'll first admit that I have not read everyone's posts. But still, I feel the need to throw in my opinion.
I disagree that the public does not value design. I believe that design still is critical, even to the average person. Everyone will give you an opinion on design. Design of cars, of ipods, of houses, buildings.
It's not necessarily an issue of "modernism" versus "historicism". (did I spell that right?) A new "historic" building in my town is publicly derided, the public, rightly, calls it ugly. It's awwwwwful.
Now, where there is a problem is that the public generally does not like the same design that I do. Hence, as many have said here, the need to educate your public / client.
When you do good design (regardless of "style") the public will notice. They can't see it in advance, but they will see it later.
Firms that do poor design won't go anywhere.
Note that the public is already being educated about "design" by our American consumer culture. This culture, brought through in commercial construction, pushes a design value. (One I disagree with.) However, I belive it is worthwhile for us to understand the motovation behind this aesthetic.
Perhaps the need for some sort of Postmodern historic referant is due to the need for some sort of 'security' blanket - a story that permanance could possibly provide. I don't know if I want to go any further with that thought today.
Love & CAD to all.
Nov 22, 05 9:14 am ·
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FUCK DESIGN moments
how often do you have them? sometimes I see how little design matters to most people, and how little value is attached to it, and how subjective and debatable its results are, and I just stop giving a crap. This happens about once a day now.
This is, FYI, from the point-of-view of a 4thyear B.Arch student, on the brink of making a major decision about his future.
like virginia, design is for lovers only.
i love design.. but i'd rather patronise it than practice it. i have an idea.. everyone give me money, to do nothing. it's art!
bitter
Why give a fuck about most people, If your not designing for yourself in some regard you'll never enjoy it.
if your happiness as a designer depends on the good regard of your fellow man...
go ahead and change majors
Yet, it's not like we're doing paintings or sculpture, where you don't really need a customer in order to express yourself... to do architecture somewhere other than on paper, you usually need a client and users.
i recently visited an exhibition at the Cleveland Museum of Art on "The Arts and Crafts Movement" ... i was struck how similar the problems back in the late 1800s / early 1900s are to ours today ...
those folks thought it would be a good idea to work together to "elevate the public taste" and they produced a lot of stuff that holds very broad appeal 100+ years later ... it's wonderful stuff
threads like this depress me (actually, they disgust me) because they convey this "screw it, i'm worthless, i'm a victim and i'm going to throw in the towel" ... come on people, get a backbone ... stop whining and fix the fucking problem
i'm damn proud to be an architect ... i take every possible opportunity to discuss my craft and my art with laypeople and i try to help them understand what we do and how we can make their lives better ... i volunteer with aia to work on public awareness initiatives ... i want to be successful in these endeavors and i'm willing to get off my ass and out of this damn discussion group from time to time to actually do something ...
who wants to go there with me ?
I agree that at least 80% of the folks out there have bad taste, and that sucks. But as paperboy points out, it's not all about accolades and others. Some of it has to be for yourself. Personally, when I design something I love and still love it years later, that's happiness and satisfaction I can't imagine getting anywhere else.
Make yourself happy. The future is yours, so take advantage of your youth and find a way to make a living doing what makes you happy. If that makes someone else happy too, then you're a great success.
Life is all about balance. This is true in professional and personal life. You have to balance things or you'll never be happy. Don't rely on one source for satisfaction (i.e. don't rely on one job for everything you need - which most do).
It takes more effort than just showing up at a job and doing what you're told, but if you make your future yours, you'll eventually find what you want.
And listen to BlueGoose. You have to do extra things to get what you want, it ain't gonna be handed to you.
i dunno, i couldn't do anithing else, i love almost every part of it. there are other things i like, i sometimes wish i was a bass player in kyuss, but the band doesn't exist anymore, so that's not an option.
i agree with what bluegoose said, but also, if you don't like this stuff enough, you should get out of it. if you do, stick with it. is that easy!
bigness, you CAN be that bass player. Here's how:
1. If you don't have neighbors, crank up your stereo and amp and play along (or nerd out, I like to call it).
2. If you do have neighbors, plug your bass into you computer and play along with mp3s though headphones.
Oh, if only you knew all the bands I have been a member of. Did you know back in the 90's I was the only white member of Living Colour? Well, maybe not the only.
I love Living Colour.
I jumped out the window
To get to the parking lot
Writing this little song
On my way down
Thanks for the advice, really. But I think it's wrong that we aren't compensated as much as we should be, for as sensitive, informed and hard-working as we are. And the reason we aren't compensated is that people don't give a crap about design.. moreso in India than in your countries. Its not that I'm obsessed with the creation of wealth, but the fact that society doesn't attach value to your work gives you the lingering feeling that what you do doesn't really matter.. it does for me, atleast. Its tragic, because I really love design, its been a passion for the last 4 years of my life. I love the process, the interactions, the all-nighters, the back-and-forth, the jury reviews.. but I guess I feel it doesnt give enough back to me.
Strawbeary, I totally forgot I bought that album. I need to dust it off, even though it is almost too new to be good.
Such a lovely day
To go flying
Skies above and the sun is shining
Fate has given me wings
Such terrible, funny things
Funny things
garpike, that song gives me chills. I will go listen to it as well.
sorry ManuG, not very helpful to you. Read my "renewal" thread?
ManuG..I understand your frustration and I think we all feel it sometimes but you just need to hang in there..it always seems very bleak in the begining...(beginning of your professional career I mean)
But the main question to ask yourself is are you designing only for others or is there anything you get out of it, as in... do you think you would rather be doing something else??
garpike, if that's all it takes i'm a regular member of
kyuss
refused
mastodon
motorpsycho
most bands on the 90's epitaph roster
anyway, it's a job, you enjoy the process of doing it, not the by product of appreciation.
and when yoru design will actually impact people lives, you'll get that feedback.
snore
This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately after hearing non-architecture student friends point out tasteless, fake, empty, uncreative or otherwise meaningless buildings as "nice." We have a serious lack not of good taste but of education of design theory in this culture. I remember reading in a post this summer that people need only walk into a recently-built bank lobby (whose exterior is no doubt clad in brick with double hung windows) with it's eight foot drop ceilings and compare it to an older bank lobby of the Art Deco, Modernist or any other creative era with its soaring ceilings to understand that faux-colonialism (for example) does not make a good building--creative design, aesthetically and experientially, is what makes a good building. That having been said, this is what I'm wondering.. In schools, no matter whether you intend to become a philosopher, poet, microbiologist or custodian, our public (and private) education system mandates that you study and understand literature--not just reading, but literary periods, and so on. This is true of many fields of study, especially the arts perhaps, in school. Certainly someone whose literature education ended in tenth or twelfth grade will not have the same knowledge, understanding and expertise as a literary scholar, but there is a basic framework there. Why is there hardly--if ever--any remotely similar time given to the study of architectural design or design in general? The problem is not that people have bad taste, but that they have no taste at all, because an uneducated or ignorant taste isn't real taste--it has no comparison to make. People who are educated about design will inevitably choose buildings that make them feel good, that have something to say over buildings pretending to be two hundred years old, but devoid of meaning, characteristics or sympathy for the human experience. The built environment is the only world in which we live and if we continue to fail to educate people about the design of that world, it will continue to languish in mediocrity. That's my opinion anyay.
This all reminds me of the story about the county fair somewhere in West Virginia in the 1800's: Some young conductor played Mozart, but the crowd stood there with blank stares on their faces. But when he played "Yankee Doodle", the crowd went wild.
FLM--
This *is* a good "design era", it's just that there are shit buildings produced in *every* design era! :) Don't worry, it's not getting any worse than it has been before. You're right about education; there are a number of interesting social studies that have shown that America, for various reasons, has come to praise the "sciences" and the "scientific method" over anything else, and our educational system reflects that; in France, the humanities (for a long time) were first and foremost in schooling. This country is obsessed with being "scientific" and not necessarily artistic. It's worth fighting to change, I feel.
I don’t agree on the note that we should take the design as a way to merely satisfy our own ass***** and forget about the people who will be using our oh-so-difficult spaces that we say were "designed for them to use". Hello?!
We must remember that yes, we are the "demi-gods" of this earth and we have the power and the ability to create. But don’t you think gods worshipped from (or should I say emanated from) the middle earth are the ones who were usually born "stupid"...lets take Zeus for example...duh!
I hate the mentality that we as architects do not pay attention to what the clients (other people) are saying for they don’t have a single idea on what is best for them...HELL NOT! It’s a two-way thing, we learn from one another. They present us what they need and we’re the ones who interpret it in our own perspectives. We are mediators and we are in the service for them not the bosses.
Designing for a project is a collaboration thing that every architect must take into consideration and regard as a social thing to do by connecting their ideas and principles to what other people have in their minds.
A design that fulfills what an architect wants by injecting all his ideas and creativity into it and at the same time collaborating "some" of those ideas that his clients/other people are presenting to him is a challenging thing for us to do. Lets not forget that it’s not merely a self-expression thing, it’s also a profession.
ManuG--
It all gets better when you see your clients get so excited by your designs that what started out as a $300,000 kitchen renovation turns into a 1.1 million entire house gut, literally step by step as they get REALLY into it and get slowly carried away. And you watch them get hooked by architecture, curious about it, and they come back and report to you things they now notice in other buildings, and ask you so many questions, and want so much to learn what good design means, and get so excited when they start to recognize it on their own... wow. It is SO MUCH FUN to see design literally transform someone's outlook like that.
And the day that you're standing in what's going to be their TV Room with them... and they point to some bit of framing and ask you what you think of putting built-in shelves there... and you stand there for a second thinking of how to explain to them what you think, and finally you just say, "you know what, I think that you wouldn't get very much usable space out of it, and frankly, it just wouldn't look good." and they say, "we trust you, we need you to show us these things, if we're wrong." and so you follow it up with, "See how the closets form a sort of monolith in the middle of the space? If you squeezed built-ins next to it it would throw off the balance of the composition." And then you watch them, and you see in their eyes that they get it, and they say, "Oh yes yes, you're right! No shelves!"
...that is sooo nice. And then they take you out for sushi dinner, and thank you for all your thoughtfulness on their behalf, and tell you all about how they can't WAIT to live in their new space, and how glad they are that they have you designing for them.... wow.
I love my job.
myriam ... good post ... it's nice that you're willing to share positive experiences that reinforce the value and excitement of our work
i want to reinforce some of what Blue Goose writes above ... we're not victims here ... nor are we powerless to change public perceptions of our value to society ...
it is often said that "all politics is local" ... the same holds true with us ... we have to learn how to articulate the value of what we do in terms the average person can understand and appreciate ...
then, we have to be willing to have the conversation ... we have to be willing to go before a school board or church building committee or that guy your standing next to at a holiday party and deliver a persuasive professional case (not a personal opinion) that demonstrates how what we do can improve their lives and the lives of their constituents
if we believe, we have to stand up and and project our value in a professional manner ... otherwise, nothing will improve
I haven't heard so much tripe in ages. So all these people with such bad taste aren't allowing to you to express yourself, and when they do, they don't understand it?? Poor poor you.
I don't even know where to begin when I hear discussions like this - ooh its so exciting when you can open the eyes of someone who can afford $300,000 for a new kitchen (forgive me if you were being ironic, in that case I didn't get it) to the world of architecture! Who gives a shit!
Believe it or not, as architects, we are extremely capable of being agents of change - and there are plenty of clients out there who need all but the most basic of our skills. We are a clever bunch of people, and we waste our talents on trying to compete against each other for limited projects to market ourselves to ridiculous glossy magazines that noone will remember two years down the line - instead there are a lot of desperate situations out there that affect entire lives easily transformed by our hard work - not through navel-gazing abstraction, but simple interventions (which require a lot of skill to target and implement).
Accuse me of being a guilt mongering leftie pain in the ass, but believe me there is a lot more interesting work to do with our skills which will leave you with no room to say FUCK DESIGN, instead leave you with a feeling of being a part of substantial change.
PS No one is going to thank you for this, and you won't get any honourable mentions in any fucking magazines
what?!
I'm not really sure what you think you're attacking... If you are intrepreting my statement above of how rewarding it is to build good designs for people who appreciate it as somehow meaning that my life's goal is getting into magazines, then I can assure you, you are sadly mistaken.
I was addressing ManuG's frustration that design is not appreciated, so what's the whole point, anyway. We've all felt that way, and it sucks. So, I shared some recent positive experiences I had that reminded me that good design does, in fact, touch people's lives--exactly what you seem to hope it would do.
I don't say "Fuck Design"; design is my life. I don't ask for thanks, nor magazine awards. If you knew anything about me, or my life, you wouldn't feel the need to make a personal attack based on your perceptions of my motivations.
So, PS, maybe you can restructure your comment there into something that could be positive and helpful towards answering ManuG's original question. I'm sure you mean well, but attacking me personally isn't the best way to get your intentions across.
when i received my masters diploma, that was one.
myriam - Thanks for the post, that was encouraging.
Shambloks - keep in mind that I'm at a time in my life where I can make a decision: stick with architecture, or leave. I appreciate and agree that architects ARE agents of change, and that there IS potential for us to affect people's lives and make a difference. But my question is - how much change? And I'm sorry, but the returns just dont satisfy me enough. Sure, we can create better cities, better living and working environments and so on, but we really aren't empowered enough to do much more than that, and aren't paid enough to make a really substantial difference in the lives of the people around us.
Let me give you an idea of what the professional situation is like in India. I'm 21, studying in an architectural school that is affiliated with an engineering university. Now, I see my engineer friends graduate and start out with salaries ranging from 250,000 rupees to 600,000 rupees a year, at the end of their fourth year of colege education. Now my architect friends, fresh out of their fifth year of architecture school, earn between 36,000 rupees and 180,000 rupees a year (depending on how 'commercial' the firm that employs them is). That isn't enough to survive on, literally speaking. Most of us, after our long sleepless nights of work, endless research and study, FIVE years of education, aren't empowered enough to pay for our own living expenses, let alone help or support others in our lives. Our engineering friends, meanwhile, get along just fine by studying for their exams about 3 days in advance, photocopying portions of text books and getting a good night's sleep every day of their four year education. And the moment these insensitive, uninformed slackers get outta college, they get paid 10x what we do. That really sucks, and speaks volumes about how much society values our work.
Here are some more comparative starting-salary figures:
Law students: 600,000 rupees - 1,200,000
Engineer INTERNS: 120,000
Journalism/Arts: 120,000 - 600,000
I might sound grumbly or bitter, but this is pretty much a consensus among the architecture students in our school, and I'm sure in most of India's architecture schools as well. Its not all about the money, its about being rewarded for the efforts you've put in, and for your capabilities. I'm not suggesting that we escalate the pay scale for architects, I'm not even suggesting that there can even BE a change of any sort. I'm just expressing my frustration. Ciao.
you gotta do what makes you happy ... if architecture makes you happy, do architecture ... if the compensation of architecture makes you unhappy, get over it, don't be an architect or work to change things
the world doesn't need another grumpy, bitter architect ... no matter how much talent you have
oh ... and shamblocks ... you make some good points. but you deliver them so badly and with such venom that it's really hard to take you seriously
You must remember that when the other students aren't expressing how passionate they are about architecture, it is largely in part because they are giving up. They are becoming sheep and following the herd.
You have the ability to be different and choose not to give up. Your passion and frustration are the same. You are frustrated because you are passionate. If you choose to give up now then you are no better than the rest. However, if you decide to stick with it then you are needed in this crazy world of architecture.
You don't agree with what architecture has presented us in the past? Imagine that....... I wonder why? Perhaps you do not like the designs of the unoriginal. You don't like the track housing or the replica structures that fill the skyline. Well, if you really feel this way, then do something about it.
You have the power to change the way others look at the world. I think that an architects ability to do that in itself is AMAZING!!! If you are determined and you pursure your dream, then you will only help the architectural world.
When others on this site make negative comments towards you, they are just frustrated and don't know how to answer your problems. They think that you are one of the sheep. However, if you are truly passionate, then you will always be a separate category.
Frustration is a hard place to be in. We have all been there. We are surrounded by people that follow the crowd. It is rather depressing to watch. However, if you can think for yourself and you are planning on changing the way we look at things then you are definately doing a service to society. Don't you want to make your mark in the world? I can't imagine a better way than designing an amazing structure for someone, and having it truly suits their needs.
Don't give up.... and don't listen to the negative people. They are just pulling you down.
You do need to realize that not everyone wants to be a famous architect. If you are passionate then you probably find this hard to believe. Some people are just in the field for the label "architect" and others do it because they seriously are o.k. with being cad monkeys. Everyone plays their role in society. You will eventually need someone to do the grunt work under you when you become a great designer. So don't get mad at the people who are going to be your future employees.
it sounds like in india you have to be independently wealthy to do the job, much like europe was not so very long ago. which sucks.
i have some friends in a similar situation in south america and i don't know how they managed to start but basically they just formed an office and found clients and worked incredibly hard and are starting to make a name for themselves. they are very talented but they are in very challenging environment and had to decide to go for it, devote every ounce of their energy into their work, or give up.. i think many of their classmates gave up, but somehow these guys have persevered. sheer stubborness can be as valueable as talent.
or maybe you need to make an effort outside of the traditional route...no idea what that means, but you would know better than anyone what is possible where you are.
one question; do wages increase after a few years or will you be stuck at that level forever? if things become more sustainable after awhile it could be worth sticking out...
Forgive me for my ridiculous tone earlier, and to myriam in particular - the gist I got from this discussion were obviously wrong.
The point I meant to make is simply that I find it silly to expect any appreciation from others for what we do. By being designers, we are lucky to be in the position to be possible agents of change, and even more lucky if we can leave our mark ideologically, formally etc (and that we can then discuss amonst ourselves whether we were successful in doing it in whichever manner) - but this mark that we leave is something that is a bonus handed to us, and we should appreciate it, in whatever form it emerges as.
We are enerally a talented lot, but I simply think that we are not proactive enough - designing for the wealthy is such a limiting factor that it makes fools of our intelligence and training. Of course I admire all the successful and famous designs that I see, but there are an infinite amount of even more clever and successful design that our attention is never drawn to, and never will be, and often these are ones that are more absorbing and important.
Our lack of reward, financial or otherwise, compared to others who work less, and with less passion, intelligence, and wit, is offset by our personal satisfaction from this occupation. And this satisfaction, for me at least, is enough to never think of 'fucking design'.
And this satisfaction, I believe, is far deeper when designing and being engaged in environments where they are desperately needed. We don't have to wait to be asked to design something for a client, or competition. We have to go out and look for what needs to be more carefully thought through, or possibly even designed, and be more proactive in our work.
shambloks ... now THAT's a professional and cogent argument ... nice contribution
shambloks, thanks for the addendum and apology. I totally agree, we really do need more proactivity. I've been really intrigued (and challenged) recently by public architecture and their 1% solution. have you heard of them?
Thanks shambloks. You make sense.
However, I am now bordering on MPD.
MPD?
Multiple Personality Disorder.
bigness... Mastodon rocks.
when i was a student the profs were always going on about educating the public to understand architecture and i totally bought into it. mostly because i wanted to be an architect and even architects need love. now i am inclined to believe that it is best to leave people to decide their own tastes without judgement form the more tasteful than thou set. no one likes to be condescended to.
i am not offended that my mum and dad would never hire me to do their house (they are, basically, cowboys) and i have never felt the need to teach them why they are so ignorant and why their lifestyle is so wrong (i don't for a minute believe they are wrong, btw. what they do is very cool).
nah, architecture is for the elite and by the elite whether they get there by birth or education and if the public in general is happy with wal-mart then let them have it. fixing the world for everyone's good sound nice but the only way that is possible is if you are a dictator (notice corbu liked the dictators back when). the world is much better off all messy and wal-marted. i am perfectly content to do my thing within that context.
Sorry you lot --
jump, I think the comparing of the dictating of taste, which is the worst, and possibly most misguided part of our architectural education, and uncritical acceptance of walmart into our lives through some class fear of seeming to be the haters of working-class (or anyone else's) love of convenience, is completely unconnected, and dangerously so.
If a client wants tastelessness, it might hurt, but as you point out, essentially 'what they do is very cool', and really that's the case with everyone [I suppose]. But taste and fundamental discussion on politics are a gazillion miles apart.
Telling people what to do is always uncomfortable, and makes you question yourself, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. The vast majority of people don't want to be dictatorial, and rightly so.
However, 'If the public in general is happy with Walmart then let them have it'? No, no, no. How about: 'If the public in general is happy with hammering the environment into oblivion, then let them [carry on] with it.' No, its baseless to let a majority of people do something irrationally destructive just because it suits them for a brief period of time, whilst not considering anything else. Frankly, this is where the minority of intellegensia [hopefully, from time to time] kick in.
Sorry to finger-wag, but this is serious, and it's an important matter of responsibility within democracy, which is a touchy subject, as most people within a democracy don't like to be told/suggested what to do -- but actually need to be, now and again...
And the world isn't better off messy and Walmarted, it IS worse, really.
And I promise I'll shut up/lighten up from now on
shambloks
good points.
to be honest i somehow remain absurdly optimistic that our various cultures will become bored with big boxes. In the meantime i agree when things get too crazy and the environment is turning wonky because of how we live then something needs to be done. but architects discuss walmart as if it is an aesthetic offence, or a moral error that requires a handslap or a spanking, which is slightly ludicrous.
the problem of walmart is complex and needs to be responded to through politics, citizen groups, and union meetings, and...i don't know what else... but architecture is really just a speck in the mix. at least in its common meaning. and anyway the most serious imediate problem with walmart is that it has created an enormous trade deficit with china that is scary...
we (architects) are fundamentally tied to the money and the power in charge of our lives in a way that is incredibly frustrating. we are trained to do good for society as a whole, in the west at least (i think because of the influence of the bauhaus on so many western institutions) and then we go into the real world and it turns out the people with money don't care about the rest of the world at all. so we build walmart and we build aprons of parking around stupid boxes and we sometimes build quite nice things too. but we don't decide what or where or when to build.
without becoming a politician or starting an action group i think an architect can only have an effect by dealing with what is there. it isn't an uncritical approach but starts with reality, dealing WITH wal-mart rather than against it. i suppose, much as i dislike admitting it, it is the stance that Will mcdonough takes with the environment that will have the best effect. there is some education element there but in the end what he is offering is a service that the elite will pay for. i am not sure how we can use this for other issues yet but am working on it (i have worked for several years as an architect but recently have been researching urban planning isues for my phd; i am trying to find a way to address and discuss the craziness of our modern cities that doesn't resort to jim koenstler's point that "you're all acting fucking stupid so stop it! Oh and by the way the classical orders are the right style to use god damn you all to hell.", as this is in the end really not very useful).
"without becoming a politician or starting an action group i think an architect can only have an effect by dealing with what is there"
i agree that we have to be willing to take individual action ... but, it's important to remember that the aia was (is) set up to lobby on behalf of the profession ... aia can only be as effective as the support it receives from practicing architects in this country ... in politics, numbers and money are the only meaningful power ...
when was the last time you wrote your congressman regarding some issue aia was supporting (or opposing) before congress ?
it's one thing to sit on the outside (or inside) and rail against the supposed frailties of aia ... but, the truth is, aia is the only true collective voice we have ... it ain't perfect, but it is our voice
if you don't want to support aia, fine. but don't complain about being voiceless if you don't engage the institute and work toward achieving political clout
in my case it is the JIA as i am an expat architect(i work in tokyo and when i can, in london, in which case it is RIBA) and the issues are slightly different. still i grew up and studied in canada and never was impressed by the canadian version of the aia. from what i read the aia doesn't do much where you are either...
but the point i was making is that architects should not give so much credit to their profession cuz it really doesn't have as much of an impact as we are trained to believe, most of the time. we all know by now that pruitt igoe was a political failure as much as a design failure, whatever jencks might like us to think. and if we really truly want to deal with wal-mart or the environment or anything else then it has to be through political means.
failing that then i would again challenge the profession to try the Mcdonough approach and work with the things we all apparently dislike. is wal-mart bad because its inherently bad or can it be redeemed through thoughtful reconceptualisation? it might be possible if we are persistent enough, but then again we don't have the power in our hands and will never be more than advisors to those who DO wield it. that is our leverage, to be used or not. the big problem is that we are so afeared of losing our jobs that we become yes-men to the people in charge and the aia is never going to change that and neither is congress. worse, we are all in denial that this isn't the way the profession works, hence the conflict....
u can feel it when u designing .....it is a fact what u saied...... but it will be a good memories when u remember this moments
look ... the key issue in all of this remains: elevating the public taste ... ManuG started this whole thread by complaining "how little design matters to most people, and how little value is attached to it"
i don't do what i do for either respect or accolades ... for damn sure, i don't do it for the money ... i do what i do because i believe passionately that my knowledge, talent and skill can improve people's lives ... and make liveable communities ... i'm not shooting to become famous (necessarily) or to join the ranks of the starchitects ... i own very little black clothing
now, having said that, i need clients who "get it" ... otherwise, i'm going to live a very frustrated life and i won't accomplish what i want to accomplish
mostly, clients who "get it" aren't born ... they're made ... and, we've got to make 'em 'cause nobody else is going to do it for us
as Blue Goose says above, we've got to "stop whining and fix the fucking problem" ... i don't believe that we (the profession) are the fundamental problem ... but we ARE fundamental to SOLVING the problem ... we've got to get out there, we've got to make the case, we've got to stand up and be counted
Ok, I'll first admit that I have not read everyone's posts. But still, I feel the need to throw in my opinion.
I disagree that the public does not value design. I believe that design still is critical, even to the average person. Everyone will give you an opinion on design. Design of cars, of ipods, of houses, buildings.
It's not necessarily an issue of "modernism" versus "historicism". (did I spell that right?) A new "historic" building in my town is publicly derided, the public, rightly, calls it ugly. It's awwwwwful.
Now, where there is a problem is that the public generally does not like the same design that I do. Hence, as many have said here, the need to educate your public / client.
When you do good design (regardless of "style") the public will notice. They can't see it in advance, but they will see it later.
Firms that do poor design won't go anywhere.
Note that the public is already being educated about "design" by our American consumer culture. This culture, brought through in commercial construction, pushes a design value. (One I disagree with.) However, I belive it is worthwhile for us to understand the motovation behind this aesthetic.
Perhaps the need for some sort of Postmodern historic referant is due to the need for some sort of 'security' blanket - a story that permanance could possibly provide. I don't know if I want to go any further with that thought today.
Love & CAD to all.
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