I would think rust would be a concern in the steel floors, too? I love the look though I worry about coldness underfoot - steel can suck the warmth away pretty quick. How do you seal the joints where two panels meet?

Also why wire glass in the sinks, again due to rust issues? You could cast other materials cast into glass that could look graphic but not have rust concerns...I guess you are going for that industrial look but frankly in a sink it doesn't seem appropriate to me. For one I personally don't like sinks made out of individual panel material built up, I prefer a true bowl of cast or thrown material. (I know you said no theory, but I can't help it.) To me a container for water is better being a continuous bowl because 1. the form might speak more of the formal qualities of a liquid and 2. there is always this uncomfortable association for me with the seams splitting, I can't look at an inside corner of two planes with liquid contained within that I don't imagine the liquid seeping through, gravity makes it stronger than the material or the sealant....and besides it reminds me of aquarium construction. Can you use the wire glass in a sidelight or shelving and use something else for the sink

Is this a high-cost "industrial look" or are you trying to actually use inexpensive materials in a cool way? I'm very interested in it.

OK, I grabbed a cuppa coffe and can better formulate why the wire-glass sink idea is sitting so uncomfortably in my brain...The wire in the glass is meant to be part of a continuous plane of defensible material, like a square in a wall that needs to be transparent but still un-pasable. Making the wire wrap a corner doesn't make sense, it doesn't use the merits of the material in any meaning ful way, so the wire becomes just a graphic decoration, in addition to causing rust issues.

Can wire glass be annealed? If the wire and glass have similar melting points (I know google would tell me in 2 minutes but I'm on a morning routine schedule) then you could form one sheet of wire glass into a bowl shape, even a freeform drippy bowl shape, and be keeping the wire as a continuous mesh that at least maintains a little of its integrity.

I guess one other option is framing the panels at all the meeting points with some obvious piece, a thick rubber gasket with slots that accept the edgeof the glass or something - that becomes part of the aesthetic of industrial material. You'd still have rusting isses w/o depending on LOT of silicone!

Also, is the sheet steel floor going down over a continous subfloor, and is there a pad? My new engineered cork floors glued to concrete have the occasional air gap under a portion of the panel that makes a hollow clacking sound when my son runs his hotwheels cars over them...a little annoying, but the cork is so warm. I would think the steel floors would amplify the noise as you walked over an air gap below, like when they use 1" plate steel to cover a hole in the road and every car that goes over it makes a big KA-Klang.

What else are you using?

Also, won't the smooth steel floors get pretty slippery when wet? That is why you typically see diamond cut steel floors & treads when used as a finished floor. I would think that the potential liability (especially in a multi-family) would far outweigh the "cool factor" especially when you could do a concrete floor with a hot-rolled steel wainscot with crisp white plaster above (or any number of other things).

By the way, I have also used hot rolled steel in furniture pieces where we sanded down the mill scale just enough to be smooth while retaining a beautiful graphite color. It takes some work, even on a small piece. I am interested in how you are going to do this on a large piece? And if you have done this before on sheet stock, was there a problem with consisency? Also, I know that there is a chemical (similar to gun blueing) that when put on hot rolled steel really warms it up. Don't exactly know what the fabricator used, but it was really beautiful after a waxed finish (to help prevent rusting).

I also agree with liberty bell about the wire-glass sink. Maybe try it as a countertop? Does the wire add to the tensile strength of the glass as well as its typical security features?

Hey Tyvek that's a good suggestion - a wire glass countertop could look very cool. Then the sink could be steel, or cast glass. I love cast glass.

Thanks Bell,

We like/need all the thoughtfulness and devils advocates we can get-

The project is on a decent budget not shoestring but not Trump either! The neighborhood is very upscale/owner occupied but these will be rentals and so there is a decreasing return on the investment at a point. I also didn't mind the theory at all, as it pertained directly to the viability of that hardware.



Regarding the floors- They are cut with a very true edge so there is alsmost no need to seal between them, but of course we will anyways with a Butyl Caulk in such a way that it has little to no visual impact. We considered welding them, but it would have to be ground after the fact which would mess up the look, plus in free panels there is always room for future change. They will be set on a thin dense sheet of rubberish material, very similar to what gets put under floating hardwood floors and then screwed down with predrilled counter sunk slotted stainless screws.

The hot rolled sheets are grey with naturally occuring patterns of grey and some slight copperish oxidation. We treat it with a Phosphoric, Dichromate wich accentuates the contrasts, darkens the grey and arrests the rusting. They are then clear coated/sealed which gives them a luster and insures further that they won't rust. Its a bit more involved but that is basically it. I have been testing them and they do get a bit cold, but just like any tile or un-heated concrete would. I was concerened that it would make the room feel like a submarine but after we finish treating them they are very beautiful with a very subtle and interesting patina.

As far as the sink- well, the aquarium reference that you made isn't far off. The design is less industrial and more of a very clean lined modern and the wireglass squares in a square form fits really well although from what I understand this is a feng shui apocolyptic nighmare. I completely understand your comments about the joints. To give you some visuals- take a look at the following:

http://faucetandsinkconnection.com/ProductImages/Porcher/Bathroom-Sinks/Vessels/32600.jpg

I don't know how to post an image with this mail and unfortunately I think you will have to cut and paste that into your browser address line to get it to come up. I love the idea of taking one sheet of wireglass and forming it into the sink- I have no idea about that and will have to look into it. One thing I like about using several- well 5 sheets of glass is the honesty of it. I like being able to look at something and seeing how it is made as opposed to looking at it and thinking, well it went throug some process and tada- sink with flower scallops embossed- or something like that. That bieng said it needs to work- the guys that will make it are pros and say it will be excellent- I guess i will have to post a pic when it comes out. I really wanted inch thick glass, that was my major reservation actually becuase I think I could seal the horizontal surfaces or like you said actually rubberize the joints including the top edge. ....I have more comments on this but I have a meeting to run to.

Ha that's hilarious that cast glass sink you linked to is EXACTLY the one I was thinking of! I love its "honesty" - simple in form, thicker base = more wieght at the bottom, I just think it's lovely. Tried getting a client to use it last week but it's a bit pricey for them!

The steel floor sounds gorgeous, really. The coldness factor can easily be offset w/area rugs where needed, and rugs on the steel will look beautiful, the soft-cuddly/hard-tuff contrast will be great. Will the sealer help with the slipperiness raised by tyvek?

I would think as long as they read as a plane on the floor they won't feel submarineish - but that would seem to be a good reason *not* to wrap the amterial up to make a steel wainscot. What will the base be? Ideally none of course, so the steel plane really reads as a flat plane...but maybe a clear sealed wood base (like a 1x6) would introduce a warmer element that maintains some basic construction aesthetic while also continuing the lightness of the wall color, to keep the emphasis on the floor.

Rubber underneath is good. I also just used a natural cork underlayment which worked very well, is inexpensive and gives basically the same thermal and noise reduction properties as rubber. I'm madly in love with cork these days.

I also like the notion of 5 planes of material coming together to form a basin, as you said very honest, but I'm not as crazy about it as a vessel for water. Although I did use that kind of sink in a hotel once (plain not wire glass) and actually the ability to set a bottle of face lotion or whatever right there within the sink - basically to use it as an extension of the counter surface - was very nice and made me feel somewhat more positive about flat-bottomed sinks. However, the possibibility of the wires rusting still scares me...."Feng shui apocalyptic nightmare" pretty accurately sums up my feelings on it....

Enjoying this discussion very much and eager to hear/see more....

The gun bluing products that Tyvec mention are interesting. We did research, well really more testing on hot rolled steel and the bluing chemicals on the metals that I am using make some absolutely wild patterns visible. Copper, red, sometimes grey and grey white over black and greay. Those and the chemicals that we decided to use actually react with minerals in the metal so instead of getting a faux finish it brings out elements already in the metal. Again, it has something to do with honesty, I didn't want to make the metal something it wasn't, just interested in revealing it to the viewer like polishing a geode.

Regarding the mill scale and sanding. I am lucky that through Westbrook Metals here in austin I can get the 4 x 10 sheets with smooth finishes, dark grey patterened patina and no sanding required. The metal community is a helpful one- Metal shop foremen regularly stop what they are doing and spend time in long thoughtful discussions about design, application and engineering/structure. It took a little while to nail down- some hot rolled steel sheets just don't have "it". I believe a lot to do with where the metal is sourced and what channels it goes through before it ends up at the metal shop. Whatever that equation is, Westbrook has it.

Borders-Yeah, a trim piece is going to be necessary after all. I am up for suggestions on this. I was thinking of using something very minimal- Dark floors meeting a clean white wall with white base is what I had in mind. The natural wood won't work in this application although it triggered the thought that maple sheet walls would be an an excellent protagonist to the hard/tuff floors.

Here is another question. There is a protruding area on the 1st floor where two sheets of glass meet at a right angle. There is a steel column inside that is responsible for the structural integrity. Without getting lost in what should be a simple diagram, I am butt glazing the joint, no frame or trim on that vertical meeting point- glass on glass at a 45. Unless I can find a way I am going to use solid glass. I would rather use inch thick double paned argon filled glass that makes up the rest of this front window space but no one I can find knows how to do it. I personally can't conceptualize how it could be done either but I thought I would throw it out.

I would love to see the end result of the floor. I understand the process, and have done something similar myself back when I had a metal shop in addition to the office, but not on such large sheets. Also, when we would sand the mill finish off the hot-rolled steel, it tended to make it more uniform. So maybe it is not so similar.

About the sink, please don't take offense, but honestly I think that it will look clumsy. I love the cast glass sinks, but usually hate the clumsy edge detail of the "5 sheet" glass sinks. This is similar in resin sinks for me. We are currently building a 10 foot x 2 foot x 10 inch cast resin basin because all of the "built up/laminated" resin basins are so clumsy looking. Luckily the client agreed to spend a huge premium on it. The wire glass will further accentuate the clumsiness since the wire panel will not end at the intersection with the adjacent wire panel, but run past it. But, to all their own. If everyone agreed this would be a pretty boring profession.

Good luck.

Sorry, you posted while I was typiing.

Couple of questions/comments.

1. Is the steel floor w/ rubber mounted over wood subfloor or concrete? If wood, any concern about the wood moving at a different rate than the steel?

2. Base: We have used a steel channel 1" tall with a wide top and bottom flange with plaster walls. This gives you a nice reveal and can be the same material as your floors. Block out behind the channel so that the front edge of the top flange can be used as a guide when the float the final plaster coat. The plaster needs to be done well, though since it can get damaged being so close to the floor.

3. Mitred glass corner. Look at Duratherm Windows (don't have the link handy) and they provide a detail for a mitred glass corner with insulated glazing. Basically the two glass panels stagger at the mitred joint and a rubber spacer bar is in the corner. This does not give you as clean a corner as a single pane mitre detail, but you do get the glass exterior pane without any sort of stop or frame condition. Maybe you can do a similar staggered corner detail withouth the spacer bar and then fill the entire cavity of the "L" shaped glass panel with argon. Maybe I am not understanding what you mean by "protruding" though.

I wish I could contribute. I am enthralled with this thread and think there should be more like it.

"The plaster needs to be done well, though"

What I mean is that you might want to use cementuous plaster with a thick scratch coat instead of a skimcoat over blueboard.

Also, sorry for all the typo's.

There's a house in Cardiff, CA by Luce et Studio that I've seen published recently that used steel plates for the floors...

Will there be a problem with the steel flooring getting searingly hot in the sunlight?

Tyvek, thanks for these. rereading my posts I am amazed I made it out of 4th grade spelling.

I am interested in the metal channel concept- how were they set? or did you drop the sheet rock in the channel and "trap" them? I am assuming I understand what you are talking about- see this link:
http://www.metalsdepot.com/products/hrsteel2.phtml?page=channel&LimAcc=$LimAcc
I hope that link works. But you are talking about setting the channel so a cross section would create the letter "U" right? If so, why not use angle iron, or even just a long flat strip of metal? Not that they would be better but cheaper, although they would require hardware wouldn't they, hmmmmm.

Also, are you saying that you floated out the wall so that there was no lip at the meeting point of the channel and the sheet rock (well, in your case plaster)? That is appealing

Also- Hey Rudolph- Good Job- thanks, I found that project- that is awesome. Its the first I have seen- here is the link, its the last in the series:

http://www.aiasandiego.org/designawards/honor05.htm

To me it looks just like the metal we are able to get- Hard to say, but looks like they have sealed it also. Ours should look very similar just a bit darker with a bit deeper pattern and laid out differently. But this is a fantastic job I think. I really like it. But Jeez, they really skimped on the finish out though didn't they? ; )

Glacial.

We actually turned the channel up on end (like a letter "C"). We blocked out from the studs with wood shims behind the channel so that the front edge of the channel was at our finished plaster surface. We countersunk screws in the back of the channel to secure to shims/studs. Therefore, the front edge of the top and bottom flange of the channel were flush with the face of plaster and created a reveal where the wall met the floor.

This might not work as well with sheetrock because without a baseboard, the gyp bd will take some damage.

Wow tyvek that channel detail sounds gorgeous. I love using the natural profile of the structural form as your reveal, rather than "creating" a reveal through holding dissimilar materials apart. Wow.

However, if the channel is left natural steel it may tend to make the meeting of horizontal and vertical planes of floor and wall look "fuzzy" - esp. if only 1" tall.

It's great that you are working cloesly with the guys at the metal shop. People who work regularly with a material are a wealth of knowledge about the possiblities of that material, they often just need to be shown a little respect for their knowledge to open up and share it. I'll never forget Will Bruder talking about how he got the "hand-done" custom finish texture on the precast panels at the Phoenix library - by hanging out at the concrete yard with a bunch of guys using 2x4's to beat on wet concrete in various ways till they came up with one they liked - so low tech.

agfa8x, I think those pools of sunlight on steel are where the cats will sleep all day (8 months out of the year, anyway...)!

And that Cardiff house is beautiful, RA Rudolph you are consistently the most helpful poster on archinect!!

OK, like this:



but put the wire inside the thickness of the glass, and slump it horizontally down into a bowl shape, not like a vertical sheet...then support the bowl on a steel support framework.

I know we've had this discussion here before, and glass isn't *really* a supercooled liquid, but I can't help but see it as flowing like water.

agfa8x,

you know, the heat could be a problem. its conditioned space and I am using low e glass. If I must, I will install bottom up solar screens. half of the house has very light birch floors- what I would call the daytime rooms. The metal is mostly in the bedroom upstairs, so that also, hopefully, works in our favor....

where do i put my robot?

what does that mean exactly? sounds like the set up for a really bad joke- "I'll tell you where you can put your robot...."

After the input we recieved here and further discussions with the glass company, we have abandoned the wire glass sink - I still think its a good concept, but really, without inch thick glass, the word clumbsy that was used before really is accurate. I looked at a mockup and it just doesn't work. Even if we could get it thrown, the design that liberty bell and I were comparing works for a number of reasons and one of them is the additional weight to the bottom "slab" of the box. I am on to researching getting one made from a glass shop- I have a feeling the main factor will be cost. Will report more later. Thank all.

we had 4" x 5/8" Medex milled with a quirk detail on the bottom and the top edge routered out simular to a sheet of drywall to accept the tape and installed that. It did require having the flooring all installed on our project although with sheets I can see the sheets possibly sliding in afterwards. I do like the channel Idea i'm stealing that one......