So has anyone seen this new Wal Mart movie they are showing around the country? I mean obviously its pretty silly for me to suddenly say, wow this movie really opened my eyes to the evils of the giant megacorporation as anyone could see how horrible they are, but it did raise some interesting points that i didn't know. The one i found most interesting was the fact that when a Wal-Mart leaves a Town, the buildings they have built are so huge that no one will rent them because its just too much space. Surely there must be something we can do with all this space. Turning it into a homeless shelter for all the people who have been put out of jobs by wal-mart seems like a fitting tribute. Any thoughts on the movie?
haven't seen the movie yet, but i know that some towns have now written it into their covenants that big boxes must pay remedial fees in advance for the abandonment of their buildings, before being given permits or development approval, thereby allowing the communities some $$$ to deal with their built pollution.
That seems like it might help, but at the same time, Wal-marts are receiving large subsidies from these same towns to build in these areas on the promise that they will bring growth to the community. A promise that almost always goes unfufilled. Also, While i enjoyed the movie and would never set foot in a Wal-Mart, i wonder, in towns where they are allready established, how can you go about forcing them out? Yes the workers are treaterd poorly, but if you asked them if theyd rather have a crappy job or no job at all im sure they would pick the crappy job. And since wal-mart has forced the competiton out, there is no where for them to go if they left. Its almost like we need to stop the development of more of these monstrosities, yet people need the ones that allready exist.
The renovation and subdivision of big buildings for groups of smaller tenants is a staple of architectural practice. Office buildings and (closer to the Walmart case) manufacturing and industrial buildings get this treatment all the time. The 1980s saw much of the aerospace industry close up shop, leaving many such structures. Are they hard to renovate? Not especially. Are potential tenants hard to find? Sometimes.
Does this problem mean that we should have discouraged decades of intensive aerospace research and production? Probably not. Point: the Walmart issue's LEAST important factor is buildings.
citizen, I agree that walmart has a tall list of grievences the least of which being what to do with their buildings, that was more of a jumping off point with some architectural relevence to this site as well as one of the issues that could be dealt with in a more creative or poetic way. I do feel however that tenants are harder to find for these such buildings because in many instances the town has become a ghost town by the time walmart packs up and leaves.
Have any of you actually seen a Wal-Mart store? The 20 +/- years they operate the store is about the entire life cycle of those buildings. They are built cheaply as possible.
Who in their right mind would want an old Wal-mart store that probably has a failing roof membrane, poor mechanicals that probably weren't properly maintained, etc.?? Those buildings are trash.
I agree with Citizen. The wal-mart buildings don't concern me. What buildings do concern me are the old main street buildings that are abandoned once Wal-Mart trashes a town of it's businesses.
It's quite right to point out that, as usual (but as often ignored), urban economic issues have architectural aspects that we are uniquely qualified to speak to.
It's quite right to point out that, as usual (but as often ignored), urban economic issues have architectural aspects that we are uniquely qualified to speak to.
I'm 30 miles from the closest Wal-Mart, it's said to be the smallest in the country. The valley is currently working on developing a 'big box moratorium' to keep it that way. Typically, it's right next to the recently (5 yrs?) expanded City Market, and they are JUST far enough apart in the same parking lot that you cant reasonably park in one spot and shop at both stores. Man, do I hate that.
while i agree that the buildings aren't walmart's worst offense, this doesn't make them any less of a concern.
a is right that the buildings only have a 15-20 yr life. the issue may be less about getting tenants as about remediation of the site after the walmart is gone. it's a big, cheaply built box sitting in a huge limited-access field of parking. and these are almost always built on greenfields, not redevelopments of previously developed sites.
after fighting (and losing) a battle to build a new store in environmentally hypersensitive southwest austin wal-mart has been "forced" to actually REMODEL its "aging" (12-year-old) store just three miles away
target did likewise across the freeway -- let's say they saw the writing on the wall with the wal-mart decision
here in ABQ, walmart managed to build a supercenter on the rear of the property of an existing walmart. when the new building was done, they demo'd the existing and voila, the new walmart now has a 100 yard setback from a major boulevard with ACRES of parking. it's just beautiful man.
My former employer only did a certain bank that looks the same everywhere you go. They had a lot of similar practices of aquiring property and land in much the same way that walmart goes about doing business. I remember one day all the heads came back from a trip to the city with pictures of the new site they were building on. Someone had snuck into the grounds at night and spraypainted on the walls "the last thing this corner needs is another bank" I found this absolutly hilarious, my employers, needless to say, did not. The people who were still living on the property (who refused to give up their lease until it expired in 6 months and were suspected of the vandalism) were steadfast in their decision to stay. So construction began on the property all around them in an attempt to force them out ala *batteries not included. In another stomach turning mood i was sent on a trip to take measurements of a building we were in the process of buying, i received an email along with my itinerary telling me if anyone asked i worked for "insert made up name and boss" here. when i asked around to find out what this was all about i was told that you get that email when the people still living there dont know they are being evicted yet. Worst experience of my life. I never wanted to be the man. I lost my job the next day and never bothered to look for it. Greatest day of my life
Ochona - I do know that Target prefers to do additions and alterations to their existing buildings when ever possible, instead of building new. While they [Target] are a big box retailer and aren't without blame, they are much more design aware than their larger competition. Arch Record a few months back featured a California Target store posing the question, "is there hope for the big box."
While big box is generally quite boring architecturally, I do give credit to Target for having both unique and urban stores. Their downtown Minneapolis store is a multi-level big box/mixed use that works within a walkable area/mass transit area. Often I frequent that store without ever stepping foot into my car.
quixotica - that story is funny. i have friends who've been on those same type of survey trips for a big box electronics retailer. even trips where they had to work in the middle of the night to prevent an existing employee revolt.
my favorite story from this particular friend was where he was trying to get city approval of his plan. of course they didn't like how his design looked because it was mostly the corporate prototype. then they said that they'd like it to look like the competitors building in the neighboring town. ha ha. the architecture of suburbia and its madness never surprises.
People keep saying the building is the least important thing in this discussion, but in many small towns the local walmart is the largest, most visible, and by many estimations most important "building" in the community. Compare that to 100 years ago when the most important building in the community surely would have been a government, religious, or institutional structure. Unlike big boxes, however, they were considered aesthetically pleasing and architecturally advanced (for their time). They were also constructed using much more refined materials and methods than nearby homes and businesses so that they would be a point of pride and symbol of permanence for the community. Also, they were often the first to incorporate new technologies like central heating and electric lighting. What does that shift in attitude say about the current state of our culture?
that's a very astute observation. i own (and really like) a book entitled "the courthouses of texas" showing all 254 county courthouses in color with histories of each. i somehow doubt that in 100 years my grandkids will buy the book "the wal-marts of texas"
i did my thesis on inserting a program to alter the experience of an existing box store. i used wal-mart for my test subject simply because it is an identifiable building throughout the US and is beginning to become a global builinding type. i inserted a collumbarium into the existing site - i had a tough time trying to determine what type of program to insert into the wal-mart to actually make spacial, emotionial and functional change on the existing building. so i went with death - it was a thesis project so why do something safe. it became an interesting project and overall i feel the building was successful. i can't say it was practical (it was over 2000' long), but at the same time i don't feel that wal-mart is practical. my final review was ugly. apparently i offended one of my critics and nearly didn't pass because she though the project shouldn't have been allowed in school. best part of the review is when she asked me if i would allow my father to be buried in this building. i had to respond yes but added that my father had been kicked out of art school during the 60's for being too controversal. yeah, that comment didn't really help my arguement.
why in christ would that have been an "inappropriate" project? do you have a website or something? i am instantly intrigued. i mean, wal-mart is nothing but a repository for broken dreams: we came (or were brought) across the oceans over the past 500 years to slave for next-to-nothing in blue-vested indignity underneath harsh fluorescent light for 39.5 hours per week (and 30 hours overtime, unpaid)? my hate for wal-mart runs deep and wide.
yeah it caught me off guard, but after looking back that kind of response is what i was looking for. she didn't know it at the time, but she made the review better and by the end of the review i discredited her issues with my project. she really didn't like my animation. i framed it with scenes from Kill Bill - don't throw me in jail for copyright issues. i started it with David Carradine shooting Uma Thurman point blank and ended it with Uma Thurman's means of killing David Carradine. i guess the critic didn't get the relationship. another great comment was she thought the people in my renderings were too "happy" - hey i had an imagecels cd. i had a bunch of porn stars for scale figures in my renderings, but decided to make it pg-13 at the last minute. i saw her this last summer at a bar and she told me that school was just a game and i asked her how looking for a new job was since she wasn't rehired. i was pretty drunk. i will post some images.
just to be difficult -- let me be a contratrian for a moment
architecturally, i hate the wal-mart box as much as the next person ... i can't stand going in their stores ... but, i do
i do because i want to purchase some of the stuff they sell ... and, they sell it very inexpensively ... for me, it's not about the experience ... if i want a shopping experience, i go to nordtrom ... it's about getting what i want for a low price ... hey, i'm a poor architect and i have to be careful with my money ... just like most people in this country
it's easy to rail against wal-mart because they have ugly buildings and there is some evidence they don't pay their people fairly ... but hey ... i know some starchitects who (for my taste) produce ugly buildings and who i KNOW don't pay their people fairly, if at all ... think about that irony for a moment
whether we like it or not, wal-mart is 'giving the customers what they want' and they've been hugely successful in doing that ... they've made a LOT of their employees (yes, even store employees) very rich over the years (through stock ownership plans) and they've provided decent jobs to a whole lot more ...
i've spent a lot of time in small communities over the years and for every person in such towns who complain about the arrival of wal-mart, there are 10 who are delighted because they were tired of getting ripped off by the local (inefficient) merchants ... and my grandfather was one of those local, inefficient merchants
walmart builds dumb boxes in the middle of acres of asphalt on what used to be greenfields so it can sell (not-too-distant-)future landfill contents made of toxic materials by underpaid labor in other countries.
they squash companies in our communities that offer real employment, give the former employees of those companies mercy jobs at low wages (as long as they're healthy), and then try to make sure that these employees won't get full-time hours and thus benefits.
from 83-92 i lived on the edge of suburbia with a giant (+/- 1 square mile) field behind my house. i grew up in that field; i spent probably a combined year of my life back there in real hours. it was beautiful, an old ranch with lots of grass, an awesome creek with lots of fossils, three old stock ponds with perch, and this awesome hill from which my friends and i could see all the way to fort worth. wal-mart and a golf course destroyed that field.
sure, my old house used to be ranch, too. sure, that's the story of every development across the country. but my childhood is now a super wal-mart. only thing worse would be the martin blank moment.
in my opinion these kind of responses from architects is partially what i was trying to address. suburbia is here and is not going to go away. as architect i feel it is somewhat irresponsible to just respond to suburbia and all that goes with it as bullshit. we can't ignore what has happened and suburbia is not going to go away. suburbia has become this generation's pruitt-igo and if we can learn from our mistakes a few pounds of explosives will not solve it. i am more for trying to improve what has already been done and to improve what is there rather than taking the new urbanist model. it is still suburbia even if you try to hide it with lick-and-stick detailing. topics like this really get my blood flowing. all you see on this site is folks trying/wanting to be the next star, but seem to lack the understanding of waht it takes to get there. i worked for 2 stars before going to grad school and have to say it was some of the best education that i could have gotten. not just because i was on projects that made the shinny magazine, but also all the shit that you have to go through to get there. i loved it while i was there, but i will never go back. right now i am struggling on my own and working on suburban housing. yep, i get shit from everyone i know for being a sell-out - "how can you put a collumbarium on wal-mart and do suburban houses?", but i try to take what i learned from that process and incorporate it into my designs. and to ochona i gre up on a 10,000 acre cattle ranch in montana so i know what it feels like to see the mass consumption of land through sprawl
digger: some evidence they don't pay their people fairly??? you must also be one of those people who believes that because there's "some evidence" that global warming isn't happening that it's not.
a lot of people who end up working for walmart and its competitors today are people who a generation or so ago would have either found well paid union jobs with decent benefits in the manufacturing or service industries or white collar jobs in secretarial or middle management positions. they would have been paid living wages or better and been provided with helath coverage and a dependable pension.
none of those things are available for the average walmart worker and a generation of people with no health coverage, no retirement savings, and hardly enough income even to afford walmart prices is inviting disaster for our economy. personally, i'm deeply concerned that my generation will NOT end up better off than our parents or grandparents.
What bryan4arch said. In fact, it's already been well-documented that the current generation will be worse off than previous generations. And I fear we've only seen the tip of the iceberg... Just wait until all the baby boomers retire and China comes to collect on their debt.
And I don't buy that "Wal-Mart just gives cutomers what they want" crock of shit. Whores and drug dealers also give customers what they want, but you won't see me welcoming a brothel or crack house into my neighborhood.
Digger, you are right that walmart gives a customer what they want, but seriosuly, at what cost? Many people who need jobs are glad for walmarts to come into the area for employment opportunities, and people looking to stretch a budget are also grateful for the price breaks. But you say that the smaller businessess are unfair because they charge more. The reason they charge more is not to make more profit, its because THEY get charged more. Walmart can sell things so cheap because they order in unheard of bulk quantities and distribute it amongst their stores, it has nothing to do with them being more or less fair. Yes, the prices are better, but its bacause the clothing was made by chinese workers forced to work 7 days a week. The prices are cheaper because they refuse to allow their employees to unionize. Yes people who can barely afford to get by dont care about these issues, but is a $3 sweatshirt really that important that you cant spend a little more money in a place that doesnt make its living on the backs of people it wont let stand up for themselves?
I'm with these^^^^^^^guys - Walmart costs everyone a lot more than the money you spend there. I worry every month about being able to afford a bottle of ibuprofen but I still won't shop at Walmart.
Nicekl and Dimed is a pretty good summary of the functional impossibility of living on a Walmart wage.
if you have one nearby, target is just as inexpensive (on most items) and while it's probably far from blameless in its labor and economic practices, it's also probably not as bad as wal-mart. here in TX the H-E-B grocery chain tends to be about as cheap as the wal-mart grocery section -- and it's "locally" owned (from san antonio) -- and the H-E-B down the street from me has a full rainwater-collection system. when i lived in chicago i could shop at da jewel with at least the comfort that the employees were unionized and therefore paid almost enough to live in chicago -- they didn't have to commute from kankakee or something like that
there ARE alternatives and wal-mart wouldn't be touting their newfound environmental consciousness if people weren't turning TO those alternatives to get what they want
I think "giving the customer what they want" is often just a cop out excuse to justify the irresponsible and/or lazy actions of corporations. Look at the auto industry. Was there really a pent up demand for SUV's 15 years ago and the auto makers suddenly started fulfilling people's wishes? Did anybody even know what SUV meant 15 years ago?
A more specific walmart example is this: let's say I live in a town with 3 grocery stores but no walmart. All three of the grocery stores sell my corn flakes at $3.99 a box. I'm not walking around thinking "man, these grocery stores are really ripping me off, $3.99 for corn flakes is robbery!" I'm not going to the managers demanding lower prices, I'm probably just thinking $3.99 is just what they cost and is reasonable to pay.
But then one day a walmart opens and they start selling the very same box of corn flakes for $2.29. I still would have been happy paying the $3.99, not knowing I could do any better, but now that walmart's selling them cheaper, my first thought probably would be that the grocery stores had been ripping me off all along. I call that unhealthy competition, not meeting customer demand....
The Walmart Song, by Satchel's Pawn Shop (Louisville)
[slow reggae-ish country dirge with melodramatic hammond b3]
Walmart took my baby
Took her away from me
Left her checking prices
Out in the asphalt sea
Put 27 stoplights between our love
They rezoned the home that I was dreamin’ of
And left me standing on an empty one way street
She used to look so happy
As she walked her way to work
Smiling at the faces as she strolled
She’d meet me at the coffee shop
Right behind the corner store
But my downtown love’s not downtown
Anymore
Walmart took my baby
Took her away from me
Left her checking prices
Out in the asphalt sea
27 stoplights between our love
They rezoned the home that I was dreamin’ of
And left me standing on an empty one way street
She used to have a Craftsman house
Beside the old high school
The evenin’s we spent swingin’ on her porch
She moved away to a cul de sac
Where the houses look the same
And now I can’t tell which one is her door
Walmart took my baby
Yeah, Walmart killed my town
Put the competition
6 feet underground
They bought the farm from mom an’ pop
And they sold it off in acre lots
And brought the freeway right to my front door
Walmart took my baby
Took her away from me
Left her stuck in traffic
Out in the Hurstbourne sea
Put 27 stoplights between our love
They rezoned the home that I was dreamin’ of
And left me standing on an empty one way street
For a good Wal-Mart alternative look at Costco. They are beating up on their competition - Wal-Mart's very own Sam's Club. The prices are the same and they treat their employees very well. Good wages and health care. IKEA is another company that is known for treating their employees well even though they run essentially a big box retail store.
Ever notice how Wal-Mart always advertises how great they treat their employees? I don't hear Target telling me they've got low prices, and oh, we pay good wages. Obviously Wal-Mart has skeletons in their closet that they're trying to shake.
I'd rather be stuck in the middle seat on an airplane between two fat people than shop at Wal-Mart.
my dad always said: if a company has to TELL you they produce a quality product...they don't produce a quality product.
my wife and i were having a conversation with my mother-in-law about wal-mart. my mother-in-law, by her own admission, loves wal-mart. she was arguing that wal-mart, being the biggest sheet of tarpaper out there (we're in texas, mind you), catches the most flies and that many companies do similar things (low wages, poor employee relations, environmental degradation, etc) but because they're not the biggest target they don't draw as much attention.
we got into why wal-mart is so successful. it ain't the products or the people. it's the process. sam walton figured out a series of innovations in distribution that allowed him to cut costs. just-in-time delivery, spacing out distribution centers properly, etc. when wal-mart began to get market clout, they used it to blackmail suppliers into negotiating lower and lower prices for their products. so that wal-mart could, yes, pass the savings on to you.
costco, on the other hand, has a different way to cut costs: cut choices. they buy, in bulk, much fewer KINDS of product than does sam's club. so you don't have thirty kinds of bulk pantyhose, you have four. but because they buy each of those four kinds in bigger volume, their unit cost is cheaper than at sam's club. and all this is accomplished without shorting the employees. indeed, my boss and his wife are noted community activists here in austin and they INTERVIEWED costco employees before getting memberships.
target was started by the dayton-hudson department store chain and they have always been modeled more on the old department store model. their innovation has been one dear to our hearts as architects: people will pay more for good design, but they'll spend a ton if the good design is at a good price. also, target seems to spend more on the look of their stores, the smell (jeez, have you SMELLED a wal-mart?), the uniforms...everything.
ikea's founder is THE richest person in the world and he owns 100% of the company. their innovations? no "brands" -- everything is IKEA brand. the positive connotations of scandinavian design (even traditional scandinavian design). packaging that allows 10 times the amount of product to be stored in the same volume as products at wal-mart. uber-sizing their stores and making them destinations, a concept cabela's and bass pro shops have caught on to. saving money on assembly by -- making YOU the assembler. and yes, farming out manufacturing to countries all over the world. although the image probably is squeakier than the reality they DO seem to make an effort to control things like child labor, slave labor, etc in their foreign factories.
all wal-mart's suppliers have to do is say, we can sell our products for MORE to target -- and they can sell them for the same price as YOU do -- and wal-mart is out of business. let's help them get there by just refusing to patronize their stores
The thing I wonder about Sam Walton is, did he set out to create this monstrosity? The CEO of walmart gave a speech to the corporate annual meeting talking about Waltons dream and what he was trying to accomplish with walmart. Walton (now dead) was said to have set out to create a shoping experience that provided quality products at low cost, to not have their employees worry about if they will be able to make their bills if a family member got sick. It seems like an idea that would appeal to everyone and the type of store i would love to shop in. Was that true or just some smoke up the ass from the current CEO? the Walton widow and her children are now considered the richest family in america, but was that what walton set out for? I mean even Dr. Frankenstein didn't set out to create a monster. How did it come to this?
Ochona – thanks for the short history lesson about major retailers. Gonna have to call you on the IKEA guy being the richest in the world. Still think Bill Gates gets that prize. Probably richest in Europe though. I’m also not sure about your comments about Costco carrying fewer products than their Sam’s Club rival. I seem to recall a business article about them carrying in fact more products but different than those in your typical Sam’s Club store.
Costco, like Target, has a different consumer market. While Wal-Mart markets to the lowest income shoppers, both Costco and Target have successfully marketed their image and stores to a more middle to upper income shopper. Yes, Target has accomplished much of this with the look of their stores. Costco, in my opinion, has done this on product offering and the fallout of the Wal-Mart *cheap* image. Only recently (mid-1990’s) did Target start bringing in designer clothing and other products, such as the Graves tea pots, etc. Even more recently that has boiled over into some very innovate looks for big box stores and their urban multi-level stores.
The interesting thing about Target and Wal-Mart is that both stores were started in 1962, yet their historical growth is phenomenally different. Target got their start with retail stores in suburban areas of Minneapolis/St. Paul while Wal-Mart built in more rural communities in Arkansas. Their growth patterns over the early years of both companies followed similar paths. Wal-Mart truly is a testament to the purchasing power of often forgotten rural America.
I’m reminded of growing up in Houston, TX. At that time Wal-Mart was despised not for it’s mis-treatment of employees, contributions to sprawl, etc. etc. We hated the company because it came from Arkansas, nothing more, nothing less. Those were the good times, oh yes.
quixotica, it is true that Sam Walton was (at least at one time) a "good guy". I don't know much about the overseas contracts... His method of keeping prices low was simple, but outdated. Simply, if you keep prices low, you sell more. Profits come from the sheer volume. This method of course is no longer viable given that it is now the method of all large retailers.
He did not plan for this monstrocity. The evilness began after his death. Given their huge control over the market, Wal Mart's buyers bully the companies directly. For example, they can tell Comapany A their products won't be placed until wholesale price comes down. Wal Mart's price shaving not only affects Wal Mart's employees, but other companies as well. This may be ok for Coca-Cola, but for other smaller companies, the quality is driven to an ultimate low.
The funny thing about all of this is that when Sam died, Wal Mart almost closed its doors. Imagine that!
walmart did not open a store in my area (i am in a mid-atlantic state) until the mid to late 1990's. before that i had never even heard of it...imagine that!
hopefully this thread will last that long. I would like to hear other comments as well, my girlfriend saw it tonight but have yet to hear from her....her first comment was I LOVED IT....but then again.
Wal-Mart Movie
So has anyone seen this new Wal Mart movie they are showing around the country? I mean obviously its pretty silly for me to suddenly say, wow this movie really opened my eyes to the evils of the giant megacorporation as anyone could see how horrible they are, but it did raise some interesting points that i didn't know. The one i found most interesting was the fact that when a Wal-Mart leaves a Town, the buildings they have built are so huge that no one will rent them because its just too much space. Surely there must be something we can do with all this space. Turning it into a homeless shelter for all the people who have been put out of jobs by wal-mart seems like a fitting tribute. Any thoughts on the movie?
I'm planning on attending a screening this week. They are going on all over the country. Check it out. http://www.walmartmovie.com
haven't seen the movie yet, but i know that some towns have now written it into their covenants that big boxes must pay remedial fees in advance for the abandonment of their buildings, before being given permits or development approval, thereby allowing the communities some $$$ to deal with their built pollution.
That seems like it might help, but at the same time, Wal-marts are receiving large subsidies from these same towns to build in these areas on the promise that they will bring growth to the community. A promise that almost always goes unfufilled. Also, While i enjoyed the movie and would never set foot in a Wal-Mart, i wonder, in towns where they are allready established, how can you go about forcing them out? Yes the workers are treaterd poorly, but if you asked them if theyd rather have a crappy job or no job at all im sure they would pick the crappy job. And since wal-mart has forced the competiton out, there is no where for them to go if they left. Its almost like we need to stop the development of more of these monstrosities, yet people need the ones that allready exist.
the film will be showing at the New School in NY on Wednesday night
The renovation and subdivision of big buildings for groups of smaller tenants is a staple of architectural practice. Office buildings and (closer to the Walmart case) manufacturing and industrial buildings get this treatment all the time. The 1980s saw much of the aerospace industry close up shop, leaving many such structures. Are they hard to renovate? Not especially. Are potential tenants hard to find? Sometimes.
Does this problem mean that we should have discouraged decades of intensive aerospace research and production? Probably not. Point: the Walmart issue's LEAST important factor is buildings.
citizen, I agree that walmart has a tall list of grievences the least of which being what to do with their buildings, that was more of a jumping off point with some architectural relevence to this site as well as one of the issues that could be dealt with in a more creative or poetic way. I do feel however that tenants are harder to find for these such buildings because in many instances the town has become a ghost town by the time walmart packs up and leaves.
Have any of you actually seen a Wal-Mart store? The 20 +/- years they operate the store is about the entire life cycle of those buildings. They are built cheaply as possible.
Who in their right mind would want an old Wal-mart store that probably has a failing roof membrane, poor mechanicals that probably weren't properly maintained, etc.?? Those buildings are trash.
I agree with Citizen. The wal-mart buildings don't concern me. What buildings do concern me are the old main street buildings that are abandoned once Wal-Mart trashes a town of it's businesses.
Points taken, Quixotical and A.
It's quite right to point out that, as usual (but as often ignored), urban economic issues have architectural aspects that we are uniquely qualified to speak to.
Points taken, Quixotica and A.
It's quite right to point out that, as usual (but as often ignored), urban economic issues have architectural aspects that we are uniquely qualified to speak to.
I'm 30 miles from the closest Wal-Mart, it's said to be the smallest in the country. The valley is currently working on developing a 'big box moratorium' to keep it that way. Typically, it's right next to the recently (5 yrs?) expanded City Market, and they are JUST far enough apart in the same parking lot that you cant reasonably park in one spot and shop at both stores. Man, do I hate that.
while i agree that the buildings aren't walmart's worst offense, this doesn't make them any less of a concern.
a is right that the buildings only have a 15-20 yr life. the issue may be less about getting tenants as about remediation of the site after the walmart is gone. it's a big, cheaply built box sitting in a huge limited-access field of parking. and these are almost always built on greenfields, not redevelopments of previously developed sites.
after fighting (and losing) a battle to build a new store in environmentally hypersensitive southwest austin wal-mart has been "forced" to actually REMODEL its "aging" (12-year-old) store just three miles away
target did likewise across the freeway -- let's say they saw the writing on the wall with the wal-mart decision
here in ABQ, walmart managed to build a supercenter on the rear of the property of an existing walmart. when the new building was done, they demo'd the existing and voila, the new walmart now has a 100 yard setback from a major boulevard with ACRES of parking. it's just beautiful man.
I heard there's an architecture firm in Kansas City (if I remember correctly) that only does Wal-Marts...
And you thought your job was boring!
My former employer only did a certain bank that looks the same everywhere you go. They had a lot of similar practices of aquiring property and land in much the same way that walmart goes about doing business. I remember one day all the heads came back from a trip to the city with pictures of the new site they were building on. Someone had snuck into the grounds at night and spraypainted on the walls "the last thing this corner needs is another bank" I found this absolutly hilarious, my employers, needless to say, did not. The people who were still living on the property (who refused to give up their lease until it expired in 6 months and were suspected of the vandalism) were steadfast in their decision to stay. So construction began on the property all around them in an attempt to force them out ala *batteries not included. In another stomach turning mood i was sent on a trip to take measurements of a building we were in the process of buying, i received an email along with my itinerary telling me if anyone asked i worked for "insert made up name and boss" here. when i asked around to find out what this was all about i was told that you get that email when the people still living there dont know they are being evicted yet. Worst experience of my life. I never wanted to be the man. I lost my job the next day and never bothered to look for it. Greatest day of my life
Ochona - I do know that Target prefers to do additions and alterations to their existing buildings when ever possible, instead of building new. While they [Target] are a big box retailer and aren't without blame, they are much more design aware than their larger competition. Arch Record a few months back featured a California Target store posing the question, "is there hope for the big box."
While big box is generally quite boring architecturally, I do give credit to Target for having both unique and urban stores. Their downtown Minneapolis store is a multi-level big box/mixed use that works within a walkable area/mass transit area. Often I frequent that store without ever stepping foot into my car.
quixotica - that story is funny. i have friends who've been on those same type of survey trips for a big box electronics retailer. even trips where they had to work in the middle of the night to prevent an existing employee revolt.
my favorite story from this particular friend was where he was trying to get city approval of his plan. of course they didn't like how his design looked because it was mostly the corporate prototype. then they said that they'd like it to look like the competitors building in the neighboring town. ha ha. the architecture of suburbia and its madness never surprises.
Check out this Interesting article about Wal-Mart and CBA's. Buildings aside, what really should matter more is the people that big box affects.
People keep saying the building is the least important thing in this discussion, but in many small towns the local walmart is the largest, most visible, and by many estimations most important "building" in the community. Compare that to 100 years ago when the most important building in the community surely would have been a government, religious, or institutional structure. Unlike big boxes, however, they were considered aesthetically pleasing and architecturally advanced (for their time). They were also constructed using much more refined materials and methods than nearby homes and businesses so that they would be a point of pride and symbol of permanence for the community. Also, they were often the first to incorporate new technologies like central heating and electric lighting. What does that shift in attitude say about the current state of our culture?
that's a very astute observation. i own (and really like) a book entitled "the courthouses of texas" showing all 254 county courthouses in color with histories of each. i somehow doubt that in 100 years my grandkids will buy the book "the wal-marts of texas"
i did my thesis on inserting a program to alter the experience of an existing box store. i used wal-mart for my test subject simply because it is an identifiable building throughout the US and is beginning to become a global builinding type. i inserted a collumbarium into the existing site - i had a tough time trying to determine what type of program to insert into the wal-mart to actually make spacial, emotionial and functional change on the existing building. so i went with death - it was a thesis project so why do something safe. it became an interesting project and overall i feel the building was successful. i can't say it was practical (it was over 2000' long), but at the same time i don't feel that wal-mart is practical. my final review was ugly. apparently i offended one of my critics and nearly didn't pass because she though the project shouldn't have been allowed in school. best part of the review is when she asked me if i would allow my father to be buried in this building. i had to respond yes but added that my father had been kicked out of art school during the 60's for being too controversal. yeah, that comment didn't really help my arguement.
why in christ would that have been an "inappropriate" project? do you have a website or something? i am instantly intrigued. i mean, wal-mart is nothing but a repository for broken dreams: we came (or were brought) across the oceans over the past 500 years to slave for next-to-nothing in blue-vested indignity underneath harsh fluorescent light for 39.5 hours per week (and 30 hours overtime, unpaid)? my hate for wal-mart runs deep and wide.
yeah it caught me off guard, but after looking back that kind of response is what i was looking for. she didn't know it at the time, but she made the review better and by the end of the review i discredited her issues with my project. she really didn't like my animation. i framed it with scenes from Kill Bill - don't throw me in jail for copyright issues. i started it with David Carradine shooting Uma Thurman point blank and ended it with Uma Thurman's means of killing David Carradine. i guess the critic didn't get the relationship. another great comment was she thought the people in my renderings were too "happy" - hey i had an imagecels cd. i had a bunch of porn stars for scale figures in my renderings, but decided to make it pg-13 at the last minute. i saw her this last summer at a bar and she told me that school was just a game and i asked her how looking for a new job was since she wasn't rehired. i was pretty drunk. i will post some images.
just to be difficult -- let me be a contratrian for a moment
architecturally, i hate the wal-mart box as much as the next person ... i can't stand going in their stores ... but, i do
i do because i want to purchase some of the stuff they sell ... and, they sell it very inexpensively ... for me, it's not about the experience ... if i want a shopping experience, i go to nordtrom ... it's about getting what i want for a low price ... hey, i'm a poor architect and i have to be careful with my money ... just like most people in this country
it's easy to rail against wal-mart because they have ugly buildings and there is some evidence they don't pay their people fairly ... but hey ... i know some starchitects who (for my taste) produce ugly buildings and who i KNOW don't pay their people fairly, if at all ... think about that irony for a moment
whether we like it or not, wal-mart is 'giving the customers what they want' and they've been hugely successful in doing that ... they've made a LOT of their employees (yes, even store employees) very rich over the years (through stock ownership plans) and they've provided decent jobs to a whole lot more ...
i've spent a lot of time in small communities over the years and for every person in such towns who complain about the arrival of wal-mart, there are 10 who are delighted because they were tired of getting ripped off by the local (inefficient) merchants ... and my grandfather was one of those local, inefficient merchants
there're two sides to every story
walmart builds dumb boxes in the middle of acres of asphalt on what used to be greenfields so it can sell (not-too-distant-)future landfill contents made of toxic materials by underpaid labor in other countries.
they squash companies in our communities that offer real employment, give the former employees of those companies mercy jobs at low wages (as long as they're healthy), and then try to make sure that these employees won't get full-time hours and thus benefits.
from 83-92 i lived on the edge of suburbia with a giant (+/- 1 square mile) field behind my house. i grew up in that field; i spent probably a combined year of my life back there in real hours. it was beautiful, an old ranch with lots of grass, an awesome creek with lots of fossils, three old stock ponds with perch, and this awesome hill from which my friends and i could see all the way to fort worth. wal-mart and a golf course destroyed that field.
sure, my old house used to be ranch, too. sure, that's the story of every development across the country. but my childhood is now a super wal-mart. only thing worse would be the martin blank moment.
and i don't play golf, either.
in my opinion these kind of responses from architects is partially what i was trying to address. suburbia is here and is not going to go away. as architect i feel it is somewhat irresponsible to just respond to suburbia and all that goes with it as bullshit. we can't ignore what has happened and suburbia is not going to go away. suburbia has become this generation's pruitt-igo and if we can learn from our mistakes a few pounds of explosives will not solve it. i am more for trying to improve what has already been done and to improve what is there rather than taking the new urbanist model. it is still suburbia even if you try to hide it with lick-and-stick detailing. topics like this really get my blood flowing. all you see on this site is folks trying/wanting to be the next star, but seem to lack the understanding of waht it takes to get there. i worked for 2 stars before going to grad school and have to say it was some of the best education that i could have gotten. not just because i was on projects that made the shinny magazine, but also all the shit that you have to go through to get there. i loved it while i was there, but i will never go back. right now i am struggling on my own and working on suburban housing. yep, i get shit from everyone i know for being a sell-out - "how can you put a collumbarium on wal-mart and do suburban houses?", but i try to take what i learned from that process and incorporate it into my designs. and to ochona i gre up on a 10,000 acre cattle ranch in montana so i know what it feels like to see the mass consumption of land through sprawl
digger: some evidence they don't pay their people fairly??? you must also be one of those people who believes that because there's "some evidence" that global warming isn't happening that it's not.
a lot of people who end up working for walmart and its competitors today are people who a generation or so ago would have either found well paid union jobs with decent benefits in the manufacturing or service industries or white collar jobs in secretarial or middle management positions. they would have been paid living wages or better and been provided with helath coverage and a dependable pension.
none of those things are available for the average walmart worker and a generation of people with no health coverage, no retirement savings, and hardly enough income even to afford walmart prices is inviting disaster for our economy. personally, i'm deeply concerned that my generation will NOT end up better off than our parents or grandparents.
What bryan4arch said. In fact, it's already been well-documented that the current generation will be worse off than previous generations. And I fear we've only seen the tip of the iceberg... Just wait until all the baby boomers retire and China comes to collect on their debt.
And I don't buy that "Wal-Mart just gives cutomers what they want" crock of shit. Whores and drug dealers also give customers what they want, but you won't see me welcoming a brothel or crack house into my neighborhood.
Well, another day, another 79 cents. . .
Digger, you are right that walmart gives a customer what they want, but seriosuly, at what cost? Many people who need jobs are glad for walmarts to come into the area for employment opportunities, and people looking to stretch a budget are also grateful for the price breaks. But you say that the smaller businessess are unfair because they charge more. The reason they charge more is not to make more profit, its because THEY get charged more. Walmart can sell things so cheap because they order in unheard of bulk quantities and distribute it amongst their stores, it has nothing to do with them being more or less fair. Yes, the prices are better, but its bacause the clothing was made by chinese workers forced to work 7 days a week. The prices are cheaper because they refuse to allow their employees to unionize. Yes people who can barely afford to get by dont care about these issues, but is a $3 sweatshirt really that important that you cant spend a little more money in a place that doesnt make its living on the backs of people it wont let stand up for themselves?
I'm with these^^^^^^^guys - Walmart costs everyone a lot more than the money you spend there. I worry every month about being able to afford a bottle of ibuprofen but I still won't shop at Walmart.
Nicekl and Dimed is a pretty good summary of the functional impossibility of living on a Walmart wage.
if you have one nearby, target is just as inexpensive (on most items) and while it's probably far from blameless in its labor and economic practices, it's also probably not as bad as wal-mart. here in TX the H-E-B grocery chain tends to be about as cheap as the wal-mart grocery section -- and it's "locally" owned (from san antonio) -- and the H-E-B down the street from me has a full rainwater-collection system. when i lived in chicago i could shop at da jewel with at least the comfort that the employees were unionized and therefore paid almost enough to live in chicago -- they didn't have to commute from kankakee or something like that
there ARE alternatives and wal-mart wouldn't be touting their newfound environmental consciousness if people weren't turning TO those alternatives to get what they want
I think "giving the customer what they want" is often just a cop out excuse to justify the irresponsible and/or lazy actions of corporations. Look at the auto industry. Was there really a pent up demand for SUV's 15 years ago and the auto makers suddenly started fulfilling people's wishes? Did anybody even know what SUV meant 15 years ago?
A more specific walmart example is this: let's say I live in a town with 3 grocery stores but no walmart. All three of the grocery stores sell my corn flakes at $3.99 a box. I'm not walking around thinking "man, these grocery stores are really ripping me off, $3.99 for corn flakes is robbery!" I'm not going to the managers demanding lower prices, I'm probably just thinking $3.99 is just what they cost and is reasonable to pay.
But then one day a walmart opens and they start selling the very same box of corn flakes for $2.29. I still would have been happy paying the $3.99, not knowing I could do any better, but now that walmart's selling them cheaper, my first thought probably would be that the grocery stores had been ripping me off all along. I call that unhealthy competition, not meeting customer demand....
The Walmart Song, by Satchel's Pawn Shop (Louisville)
[slow reggae-ish country dirge with melodramatic hammond b3]
Walmart took my baby
Took her away from me
Left her checking prices
Out in the asphalt sea
Put 27 stoplights between our love
They rezoned the home that I was dreamin’ of
And left me standing on an empty one way street
She used to look so happy
As she walked her way to work
Smiling at the faces as she strolled
She’d meet me at the coffee shop
Right behind the corner store
But my downtown love’s not downtown
Anymore
Walmart took my baby
Took her away from me
Left her checking prices
Out in the asphalt sea
27 stoplights between our love
They rezoned the home that I was dreamin’ of
And left me standing on an empty one way street
She used to have a Craftsman house
Beside the old high school
The evenin’s we spent swingin’ on her porch
She moved away to a cul de sac
Where the houses look the same
And now I can’t tell which one is her door
Walmart took my baby
Yeah, Walmart killed my town
Put the competition
6 feet underground
They bought the farm from mom an’ pop
And they sold it off in acre lots
And brought the freeway right to my front door
Walmart took my baby
Took her away from me
Left her stuck in traffic
Out in the Hurstbourne sea
Put 27 stoplights between our love
They rezoned the home that I was dreamin’ of
And left me standing on an empty one way street
For a good Wal-Mart alternative look at Costco. They are beating up on their competition - Wal-Mart's very own Sam's Club. The prices are the same and they treat their employees very well. Good wages and health care. IKEA is another company that is known for treating their employees well even though they run essentially a big box retail store.
Ever notice how Wal-Mart always advertises how great they treat their employees? I don't hear Target telling me they've got low prices, and oh, we pay good wages. Obviously Wal-Mart has skeletons in their closet that they're trying to shake.
I'd rather be stuck in the middle seat on an airplane between two fat people than shop at Wal-Mart.
my dad always said: if a company has to TELL you they produce a quality product...they don't produce a quality product.
my wife and i were having a conversation with my mother-in-law about wal-mart. my mother-in-law, by her own admission, loves wal-mart. she was arguing that wal-mart, being the biggest sheet of tarpaper out there (we're in texas, mind you), catches the most flies and that many companies do similar things (low wages, poor employee relations, environmental degradation, etc) but because they're not the biggest target they don't draw as much attention.
we got into why wal-mart is so successful. it ain't the products or the people. it's the process. sam walton figured out a series of innovations in distribution that allowed him to cut costs. just-in-time delivery, spacing out distribution centers properly, etc. when wal-mart began to get market clout, they used it to blackmail suppliers into negotiating lower and lower prices for their products. so that wal-mart could, yes, pass the savings on to you.
costco, on the other hand, has a different way to cut costs: cut choices. they buy, in bulk, much fewer KINDS of product than does sam's club. so you don't have thirty kinds of bulk pantyhose, you have four. but because they buy each of those four kinds in bigger volume, their unit cost is cheaper than at sam's club. and all this is accomplished without shorting the employees. indeed, my boss and his wife are noted community activists here in austin and they INTERVIEWED costco employees before getting memberships.
target was started by the dayton-hudson department store chain and they have always been modeled more on the old department store model. their innovation has been one dear to our hearts as architects: people will pay more for good design, but they'll spend a ton if the good design is at a good price. also, target seems to spend more on the look of their stores, the smell (jeez, have you SMELLED a wal-mart?), the uniforms...everything.
ikea's founder is THE richest person in the world and he owns 100% of the company. their innovations? no "brands" -- everything is IKEA brand. the positive connotations of scandinavian design (even traditional scandinavian design). packaging that allows 10 times the amount of product to be stored in the same volume as products at wal-mart. uber-sizing their stores and making them destinations, a concept cabela's and bass pro shops have caught on to. saving money on assembly by -- making YOU the assembler. and yes, farming out manufacturing to countries all over the world. although the image probably is squeakier than the reality they DO seem to make an effort to control things like child labor, slave labor, etc in their foreign factories.
all wal-mart's suppliers have to do is say, we can sell our products for MORE to target -- and they can sell them for the same price as YOU do -- and wal-mart is out of business. let's help them get there by just refusing to patronize their stores
FREE SCREENINGS in LA:
Nov. 16 - Antioch
Nov. 17 - Workmen's Circle
Check official site for the details.
The thing I wonder about Sam Walton is, did he set out to create this monstrosity? The CEO of walmart gave a speech to the corporate annual meeting talking about Waltons dream and what he was trying to accomplish with walmart. Walton (now dead) was said to have set out to create a shoping experience that provided quality products at low cost, to not have their employees worry about if they will be able to make their bills if a family member got sick. It seems like an idea that would appeal to everyone and the type of store i would love to shop in. Was that true or just some smoke up the ass from the current CEO? the Walton widow and her children are now considered the richest family in america, but was that what walton set out for? I mean even Dr. Frankenstein didn't set out to create a monster. How did it come to this?
the way sam walton used to negotiate supplier contracts and overseas production...methinks lee scott was just trying to blow smoke up some arses...
their no. 1 job at wal-mart is to make money, plain and simple, and it doesn't matter who is damaged in the process
ochona you rock - how do you have room in your brain for all this helpful information!? great post (the long one re: costco/trarget/etc.)
I saw the flick last night here in Raleigh, NC here is my "evaluation" I posted with some statistics after I returned home.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/formotion/203951.html
I saw the flick last night here in Raleigh, NC here is my "evaluation" I posted with some statistics after I returned home.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/formotion/203951.html
Ochona – thanks for the short history lesson about major retailers. Gonna have to call you on the IKEA guy being the richest in the world. Still think Bill Gates gets that prize. Probably richest in Europe though. I’m also not sure about your comments about Costco carrying fewer products than their Sam’s Club rival. I seem to recall a business article about them carrying in fact more products but different than those in your typical Sam’s Club store.
Costco, like Target, has a different consumer market. While Wal-Mart markets to the lowest income shoppers, both Costco and Target have successfully marketed their image and stores to a more middle to upper income shopper. Yes, Target has accomplished much of this with the look of their stores. Costco, in my opinion, has done this on product offering and the fallout of the Wal-Mart *cheap* image. Only recently (mid-1990’s) did Target start bringing in designer clothing and other products, such as the Graves tea pots, etc. Even more recently that has boiled over into some very innovate looks for big box stores and their urban multi-level stores.
The interesting thing about Target and Wal-Mart is that both stores were started in 1962, yet their historical growth is phenomenally different. Target got their start with retail stores in suburban areas of Minneapolis/St. Paul while Wal-Mart built in more rural communities in Arkansas. Their growth patterns over the early years of both companies followed similar paths. Wal-Mart truly is a testament to the purchasing power of often forgotten rural America.
I’m reminded of growing up in Houston, TX. At that time Wal-Mart was despised not for it’s mis-treatment of employees, contributions to sprawl, etc. etc. We hated the company because it came from Arkansas, nothing more, nothing less. Those were the good times, oh yes.
quixotica, it is true that Sam Walton was (at least at one time) a "good guy". I don't know much about the overseas contracts... His method of keeping prices low was simple, but outdated. Simply, if you keep prices low, you sell more. Profits come from the sheer volume. This method of course is no longer viable given that it is now the method of all large retailers.
He did not plan for this monstrocity. The evilness began after his death. Given their huge control over the market, Wal Mart's buyers bully the companies directly. For example, they can tell Comapany A their products won't be placed until wholesale price comes down. Wal Mart's price shaving not only affects Wal Mart's employees, but other companies as well. This may be ok for Coca-Cola, but for other smaller companies, the quality is driven to an ultimate low.
The funny thing about all of this is that when Sam died, Wal Mart almost closed its doors. Imagine that!
God, if only. . .
walmart did not open a store in my area (i am in a mid-atlantic state) until the mid to late 1990's. before that i had never even heard of it...imagine that!
Same here, kind of. I heard of Sam Walton when he died. Then not again until a Wal Mart opened outside of Pittsburgh in the late 90's.
I was hoping to hear more feedback on the film in here and less about the store!? Has noone else seen it?
Tomorrow at 7:30...
hopefully this thread will last that long. I would like to hear other comments as well, my girlfriend saw it tonight but have yet to hear from her....her first comment was I LOVED IT....but then again.
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