I'm not sure if this has been discussed in this forum before but I was wondering if anyone else has found themselves wondering if the IDP is actually useful as a means of preparing themselves for the ARE...
I started taking my ARE's last year in California without even starting my IDP...I had worked for a 2 years between undergrad and grad school but I never bothered to start the IDP process...
I find it strange that architectural school grad's cannot begin the testing sequence until they have completed the IDP (in most states). I passed all 9 examinations on the first try with only 2 years of very limited work (cad bitch) experience.
This begs the question: Why IDP??
My theory is that it is hugely beneficial to employers to keep new grads from getting licensed as a means of being able to pay them less. Think about it. You graduate with a masters (or b.arch) degree but your earning potential is significantly hindered until you can get licensed.....
I changed jobs right after I received my license and received a 18k/year raise in pay...Assuming I had followed NCARB's model I would have had to wait approximately another year before I fulfilled the training requirements for each category of the IDP and would have been very low wages..
marlowe,
you ask an interesting question. i'm no so cynical as to think idp is entirely to keep the young in the profession at artificially low wages. then again, i also think idp is ineffective in its current condition.
the real wage issue isn't internal, but external because architects all around aren't earning enough. there are so many factors at play in that i'd just rather not get into it. as for idp, you are lucky to have been in cali and gotten everything done. i hear they have or will be changing that rule making idp mandantory. several states now allow taking the are concurrent with the idp. that might be the best solution for now.
in many ways we overprotect our profession while others come in and totally undermind the work we do. i for one don't believe making it more and more difficult to get licensed is the answer. however, i do think low wages for architects has something to do with over supply of architects. often i think that the ARE should be made easier but college education become much more difficult. there are too many schools of architecture in my opinion. have about 25 schools of architecture in the entire USA and i think we'd have a completely different outlook. that may be drastic, but i'll argue again, reduce supply while demand remains constant and wages will trend upward.
Actually, If I understand everything correctly, as of January 1st of 2005 IDP became mandatory PLUS CA has introduced a evidence based overlay to the IDP which will require work samples..I think it is called the CIDP?? Their web site seems to be down so I was not able to confirm what the specifics of the extra IDP requirement were right now so don't quote on the last bit....
Which raises a whole new issue...I had to wait 6 months before I could sit for my oral interview...How long will the CAB take to evaluate all of "evidence based overlay" materials they are requesting for the new inters to submit as proof of compleation of the IDP???
I agree that there is an inherient amount of overprotection in the profession but I don't think that reducing the "supply" is the answer.
Has an overabundance of "supply" in other professional diciplines resulted in lower pay?
My feeling is that low wages are also the result of poor business practices on the part of most architects running smaller to mid-size firms...Historically the profit margin for a small to mid size firm has been similar to that of a well run convienance store (10-12%)...
As for being cynical about the wages: I'm not really bitter or unhappy with what I'm earning...I had very real assumptions (sadly) of what my earnings would be after graduation and I have found that my pay has very much followed what others with similar education and experience are earning...
I'm just trying to understand how the IDP serves to better prepare or educate us for the profession and the licensing exams....
My suggestion would be for all architecture students to become eligiable for the ARE immediatly after graduation...
IDP is a crock and we all know it - especially those of us (like me) who have gone through it. It's supposed to ensure that candidates have participated in all facets of architectural practice (to some degree) in order to not only prepare them for the ARE, but also give candidates some real world experience that many graduates lack coming out of undergrad / grad school.
IDP isn't a safeguard for our profession - that's what the ARE is for.
NCARB claims that it should take about 3 years for a candidate to complete IDP and attain all the "units" required in each category. In reality, most graduates that are 0-3 years out of school don't get anywhere near the exposure to office management, marketing, or CA for that matter that is required to fufill IDP. Most candidates move hours spent doing presentation drawings, bathroom detailing, or other mundane tasks typically performed by interns into other categories to satisfy IDP. Most registered architects could give a crap about IDP and generally look the other way when they have to sign off on your IDP hours.
I have heard of a few larger corporate firms that value IDP and take extra steps for their interns to complete IDP. Some firms will even pay for your IDP dues, which is a big help too.
Bottom line, IDP didn't prepare me for the exam (I only have two sections left and have passed all section so far - knock on wood!). If you're planning on getting registered, then IDP is a necessary evil.
After looking into this on the NCRB website, you can take the ARE DURING your IDP in these states:
California - after 5 years educational equivalents
Arizona - (says to contact board as to how much training is required)
Florida - 235 training units
Kentucky - 235 Training Units
Vermont - with 1 year IDP completion
Wisconsin - 6 years + 350 training units??
Texas - 6 months
marlowe, when did you begin your ARE's? When did you become officially eligible to take them? If before 2005/01/01, you won't need IDP.
The real question is, if one gets a license in CA without IDP, how easily can they get one in another state? How long would they need to be license in CA to be universally accepted? I know the answers aren't black and white, but these are things I think about.
IDP has nothing to do with the ARE. IDP is a prequalification required to be allowed to sit for the exam in most states. Same as the prequalification that you have some sort of degree in architecture (or equivilant apprenticeship in a registered arch's firm blah blah blah).
If you've already passed the ARE, there's no need to go backwards and complete IDP (unless you like to throw away money). If you're a licensed architect in one state, you'll generally have no problem with reciprocity in other states, unless you're planning on practicing in someplace like CA, which has some extra seismic stuff goin on. In fact, back in the day prior to IDP, I knew a lot of people that would travel to NY to take the exams and got licensed in NY because you only had to wait 2 years (not 3) before you were eligible for the exam. Not sure if that loophole's been closed yet or not.
dml955i: your information about reciprocity is not correct for many states. Do not assume that licensure in one state will automatically allow you reciprocity in all others.
Each state has its own policies reciprocity. These are some typical scenarios:
1. There are a number of states in which reciprocity is impossible without an NCARB certificate. To apply for NCARB certification you must be registered already in at least one state, have an NAAB-accredited degree, passed the ARE, and have completed IDP. Without IDP the only way to get this certification is to go through the Broadly Experienced Architect route, which requires at least 10 years of fulltime experience, interviews, documentation of projects, etc.
2. Other states have alternative routes toward reciprocity. Some have a list of other states with which they have "direct reciprocity." This is generally because the other states have extremely similar rules for initial registration. My state has such a list - it has 17 other states on it, all of which require an accredited degree and IDP. Reciprocity with those states is automatic, while with all of the other states it requires an NCARB certificate and is impossible without it.
3. Some states will in theory allow reciprocity for those licensed in any state, but without an NCARB certificate many of them require interviews and/or documentation of projects and/or references and/or documentation of a certain number of years of work history.
4. There are some states that will grant reciprocity pretty much automatically to anyone who is registered in any state.
If your future may hinge on your ability to get licensed in a particular state then make sure you contact that state directly and get the full story.
NCARB's summaries of each state's policies are generally correct but often lack the complete details. For example, they may indicate "yes" that it's possible to get registered without IDP, an accredited degree, or whatever - but in some cases these alternative means of registration take more time to get through than IDP would in the first place, or they apply only to people who started the process before a certain date.
I only got as far as your comment before wanting to respond, so forgive me if someone has already covered this, but...
Supply is not the problem, DEMAND is. There are many, many things that affect these, and this--not overflow of architects--is the major roadblock constantly facing the profession IN THIS COUNTRY.
Think about it. How many architects do you even meet, outside of work?! There really AREN'T that many. Think of how many English majors you know. And marketing majors. And biomedical people. I have only met two architects randomly in the past 2 years, and one was on the T in Boston (city with the highest concentration of archi's I believe) and the other was on a flight out of Logan (again... Boston). So.
And New York no longer allows early testing. In fact, New York is one of the states in which the whole process can take the longest because New York requires 3 full years of experience AFTER graduation, while most other states (and NCARB) allow some of the IDP units to be earned during summer jobs while in school and during certain part-time situations. New York does not allow summer student jobs or part-time student jobs to count toward the 3-year minimum.
If you're planning to get registered, do IDP. Eventually most states will require it before you can sit for the exam. Yay for more red tape!!!
Does anybody know the history of the IDP or why it began? I don't buy the "idp is entirely to keep the young in the profession at artificially low wages" theory at all. I would guess that the IDP started because graduates were taking the exams right after school and were failing like crazy because they lacked any "real world" training...
If you think IDP sucks, wait until you become an AIA member (if you dare)... It costs mad cash and you have "continuing education" requirements in the form of "learning units" to fufill... All for a lousy magazine subscription to Record!!!
If this starts a "AIA: good or bad" thread, I'll start jamming x-acto blades under the fingernails of my non-drawing hand!!!
I don't think it will start an AIA debate. People have their perfectly good reasons one way or the other about AIA membership, and somewhere between 30% and 45% of registered architects are not AIA members.
But a lot of states require continuing education credits just to maintain your registration from year to year - so you can't necessarily get out of that requirement just by choosing not to join the AIA.
Taking ARE prior to compleating the IDP
I'm not sure if this has been discussed in this forum before but I was wondering if anyone else has found themselves wondering if the IDP is actually useful as a means of preparing themselves for the ARE...
I started taking my ARE's last year in California without even starting my IDP...I had worked for a 2 years between undergrad and grad school but I never bothered to start the IDP process...
I find it strange that architectural school grad's cannot begin the testing sequence until they have completed the IDP (in most states). I passed all 9 examinations on the first try with only 2 years of very limited work (cad bitch) experience.
This begs the question: Why IDP??
My theory is that it is hugely beneficial to employers to keep new grads from getting licensed as a means of being able to pay them less. Think about it. You graduate with a masters (or b.arch) degree but your earning potential is significantly hindered until you can get licensed.....
I changed jobs right after I received my license and received a 18k/year raise in pay...Assuming I had followed NCARB's model I would have had to wait approximately another year before I fulfilled the training requirements for each category of the IDP and would have been very low wages..
If you are in CA, and you started taking ARE's, you don't need IDP.
marlowe,
you ask an interesting question. i'm no so cynical as to think idp is entirely to keep the young in the profession at artificially low wages. then again, i also think idp is ineffective in its current condition.
the real wage issue isn't internal, but external because architects all around aren't earning enough. there are so many factors at play in that i'd just rather not get into it. as for idp, you are lucky to have been in cali and gotten everything done. i hear they have or will be changing that rule making idp mandantory. several states now allow taking the are concurrent with the idp. that might be the best solution for now.
in many ways we overprotect our profession while others come in and totally undermind the work we do. i for one don't believe making it more and more difficult to get licensed is the answer. however, i do think low wages for architects has something to do with over supply of architects. often i think that the ARE should be made easier but college education become much more difficult. there are too many schools of architecture in my opinion. have about 25 schools of architecture in the entire USA and i think we'd have a completely different outlook. that may be drastic, but i'll argue again, reduce supply while demand remains constant and wages will trend upward.
Actually, If I understand everything correctly, as of January 1st of 2005 IDP became mandatory PLUS CA has introduced a evidence based overlay to the IDP which will require work samples..I think it is called the CIDP?? Their web site seems to be down so I was not able to confirm what the specifics of the extra IDP requirement were right now so don't quote on the last bit....
Which raises a whole new issue...I had to wait 6 months before I could sit for my oral interview...How long will the CAB take to evaluate all of "evidence based overlay" materials they are requesting for the new inters to submit as proof of compleation of the IDP???
I agree that there is an inherient amount of overprotection in the profession but I don't think that reducing the "supply" is the answer.
Has an overabundance of "supply" in other professional diciplines resulted in lower pay?
My feeling is that low wages are also the result of poor business practices on the part of most architects running smaller to mid-size firms...Historically the profit margin for a small to mid size firm has been similar to that of a well run convienance store (10-12%)...
As for being cynical about the wages: I'm not really bitter or unhappy with what I'm earning...I had very real assumptions (sadly) of what my earnings would be after graduation and I have found that my pay has very much followed what others with similar education and experience are earning...
I'm just trying to understand how the IDP serves to better prepare or educate us for the profession and the licensing exams....
My suggestion would be for all architecture students to become eligiable for the ARE immediatly after graduation...
IDP is a crock and we all know it - especially those of us (like me) who have gone through it. It's supposed to ensure that candidates have participated in all facets of architectural practice (to some degree) in order to not only prepare them for the ARE, but also give candidates some real world experience that many graduates lack coming out of undergrad / grad school.
IDP isn't a safeguard for our profession - that's what the ARE is for.
NCARB claims that it should take about 3 years for a candidate to complete IDP and attain all the "units" required in each category. In reality, most graduates that are 0-3 years out of school don't get anywhere near the exposure to office management, marketing, or CA for that matter that is required to fufill IDP. Most candidates move hours spent doing presentation drawings, bathroom detailing, or other mundane tasks typically performed by interns into other categories to satisfy IDP. Most registered architects could give a crap about IDP and generally look the other way when they have to sign off on your IDP hours.
I have heard of a few larger corporate firms that value IDP and take extra steps for their interns to complete IDP. Some firms will even pay for your IDP dues, which is a big help too.
Bottom line, IDP didn't prepare me for the exam (I only have two sections left and have passed all section so far - knock on wood!). If you're planning on getting registered, then IDP is a necessary evil.
After looking into this on the NCRB website, you can take the ARE DURING your IDP in these states:
California - after 5 years educational equivalents
Arizona - (says to contact board as to how much training is required)
Florida - 235 training units
Kentucky - 235 Training Units
Vermont - with 1 year IDP completion
Wisconsin - 6 years + 350 training units??
Texas - 6 months
marlowe, when did you begin your ARE's? When did you become officially eligible to take them? If before 2005/01/01, you won't need IDP.
The real question is, if one gets a license in CA without IDP, how easily can they get one in another state? How long would they need to be license in CA to be universally accepted? I know the answers aren't black and white, but these are things I think about.
Question, do you need to pass your AREs AND finish your IDP trainingto become licensed? or does passing the ARE's suffice?
getting licensed doesn't necessarily get you any more money or responsibility........
yes but if you're hellbent on starting your own firm, getting licensed is an enourmous hurdle to being being able to do that
IDP has nothing to do with the ARE. IDP is a prequalification required to be allowed to sit for the exam in most states. Same as the prequalification that you have some sort of degree in architecture (or equivilant apprenticeship in a registered arch's firm blah blah blah).
If you've already passed the ARE, there's no need to go backwards and complete IDP (unless you like to throw away money). If you're a licensed architect in one state, you'll generally have no problem with reciprocity in other states, unless you're planning on practicing in someplace like CA, which has some extra seismic stuff goin on. In fact, back in the day prior to IDP, I knew a lot of people that would travel to NY to take the exams and got licensed in NY because you only had to wait 2 years (not 3) before you were eligible for the exam. Not sure if that loophole's been closed yet or not.
dml955i: your information about reciprocity is not correct for many states. Do not assume that licensure in one state will automatically allow you reciprocity in all others.
Each state has its own policies reciprocity. These are some typical scenarios:
1. There are a number of states in which reciprocity is impossible without an NCARB certificate. To apply for NCARB certification you must be registered already in at least one state, have an NAAB-accredited degree, passed the ARE, and have completed IDP. Without IDP the only way to get this certification is to go through the Broadly Experienced Architect route, which requires at least 10 years of fulltime experience, interviews, documentation of projects, etc.
2. Other states have alternative routes toward reciprocity. Some have a list of other states with which they have "direct reciprocity." This is generally because the other states have extremely similar rules for initial registration. My state has such a list - it has 17 other states on it, all of which require an accredited degree and IDP. Reciprocity with those states is automatic, while with all of the other states it requires an NCARB certificate and is impossible without it.
3. Some states will in theory allow reciprocity for those licensed in any state, but without an NCARB certificate many of them require interviews and/or documentation of projects and/or references and/or documentation of a certain number of years of work history.
4. There are some states that will grant reciprocity pretty much automatically to anyone who is registered in any state.
If your future may hinge on your ability to get licensed in a particular state then make sure you contact that state directly and get the full story.
NCARB's summaries of each state's policies are generally correct but often lack the complete details. For example, they may indicate "yes" that it's possible to get registered without IDP, an accredited degree, or whatever - but in some cases these alternative means of registration take more time to get through than IDP would in the first place, or they apply only to people who started the process before a certain date.
A,
I only got as far as your comment before wanting to respond, so forgive me if someone has already covered this, but...
Supply is not the problem, DEMAND is. There are many, many things that affect these, and this--not overflow of architects--is the major roadblock constantly facing the profession IN THIS COUNTRY.
Think about it. How many architects do you even meet, outside of work?! There really AREN'T that many. Think of how many English majors you know. And marketing majors. And biomedical people. I have only met two architects randomly in the past 2 years, and one was on the T in Boston (city with the highest concentration of archi's I believe) and the other was on a flight out of Logan (again... Boston). So.
And New York no longer allows early testing. In fact, New York is one of the states in which the whole process can take the longest because New York requires 3 full years of experience AFTER graduation, while most other states (and NCARB) allow some of the IDP units to be earned during summer jobs while in school and during certain part-time situations. New York does not allow summer student jobs or part-time student jobs to count toward the 3-year minimum.
If you're planning to get registered, do IDP. Eventually most states will require it before you can sit for the exam. Yay for more red tape!!!
Does anybody know the history of the IDP or why it began? I don't buy the "idp is entirely to keep the young in the profession at artificially low wages" theory at all. I would guess that the IDP started because graduates were taking the exams right after school and were failing like crazy because they lacked any "real world" training...
If you think IDP sucks, wait until you become an AIA member (if you dare)... It costs mad cash and you have "continuing education" requirements in the form of "learning units" to fufill... All for a lousy magazine subscription to Record!!!
If this starts a "AIA: good or bad" thread, I'll start jamming x-acto blades under the fingernails of my non-drawing hand!!!
I don't think it will start an AIA debate. People have their perfectly good reasons one way or the other about AIA membership, and somewhere between 30% and 45% of registered architects are not AIA members.
But a lot of states require continuing education credits just to maintain your registration from year to year - so you can't necessarily get out of that requirement just by choosing not to join the AIA.
All I can say is I'm glad that I just made the cut of in NY back in 1999 so I didn't have to do IDP. It seems like a lot of bullshit.
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