I am Canadian but graduated in June of this year with my masters in architecture from Kunstakadamiets Arkitektskole in Copenhagen. Basically, I'm an EU certified architect, and I have an EU work permit and valid residence in Germany and Denmark.
I've had 5 job interviews in the last two weeks, and every single one has--after discovering that I'm from Canada--offered me a 'praktikum' instead of the position I applied for. A prakitkum or internship in Europe is supposed to be for students, and is very low paid (max 400 euro/month).
This works okay if you are a student in the EU because most students get a stipend or student supplement from the government while they do praktikums, meaning they can get experience without having to compete with experienced architects and the firms don't lose money on the inexperienced intern. (At least, that is how it is supposed to work).
I finally asked one of the firms why they were offering me a praktikum instead of a position and they said that all the graduates from the USA are willing to do praktikums so they assumed that I would too.
I understand taking a praktikum while you're still a student, or between bachelors and masters. But accepting a super low-paid student position after you have a masters seems pretty ridiculous to me. It leads to a situation where firms know they can get fresh interns every 6 months and they will do the same work a regular employee would do.
Most of the people on this forum are from the States... can you tell me... have you thought about taking a praktkum in Europe just to get some experience? Or do you know people who are doing this?
I understand that everyone has a different position, so what are your thoughts? Would you take a student position just to get your foot in the door even if you already have internship experience and have graduated with a masters? Even if you know you are contributing to a larger problem?
I am in the same situation, however I graduated with a Canadian masters. However I also have an EU passport meaning although I am even done school I qualify for EU financial help on top of my shitty wage.
Currently I am working for a startchitect and basically most people in the office had to start as a praktikum although they were european and done school. I took the position because I came to Europe to be with my significant other, otherwise I would not even consider it. I figure if I cannot get a real job after this, that's it. I am leaving. Also its good to take this while I look for other positions. And it has worked a bit I already have two interviews lined up because of this.
If I were you I would only consider it if the architect is famous and everyone else had to do it. I do know of Americans who got real jobs here in Europe after they were done school even in this economic situation. If I were you I would try and bargain a little, and still shop around.
Stephanie, how much time do you have on your work permit? Could it be that they think you're not going to be able to stay long term and thus offer you their typical short term position?
It could be acceptable that you do a praktikum after graduation if you haven't done one while in school, and therefore lack the experience. But I would not take it otherwise. How is it even legal for them to offer a student position to people who are not students?
archinet: lucky you for getting financial help! I really hope your praktikum turns into something more solid soon. How long have you worked there? I'm just wondering how long you need to get experience before you can be seen as having enough skills for a 'real' position...
miesian: my permit is for a year, but I've let my potential employers know that it is renewable if I have a job and that I intend to stay in Germany for at least 5 years if I can. I have also let them know that I will be enrolled in German lessons as soon as I have a position... sigh.
The fact is that it is legal for them to offer praktikums, but illegal for them to make you do the work of a regular employee while paying you a praktikum wage.... and this makes it super hard to take legal action because no employers will put down in paper what your actual duties are. There's an article in one of the magazines here about exploitation of interns. Most creative industries put secrecy clauses in their praktikum contracts so you cannot talk about it for 1 year after you finish.
I was able to get 2 interviews for 'real' positions, but won't hear back until the next week about them. Fingers crossed.
My contract if for 6 months, so we'll see. Also my duties are far beyond praktikum. I think its less about my past experience (i did do this during school) and more about testing me out before offering me something solid.
I've done this - twice. One, before graduation with an M.Arch, once after. In both cases I was paid a decent wage: in one firm because they paid all their employees decently, in the other because I negotiated and made it clear that I had graduated and needed more than they would typically pay an intern from the EU.
it happens from time to time - mainly if you are not yet really knowledgeable in the language. At least, in Germany that´s quite a big point. Other than that, EU graduates can get a scholarship for a couple of months - which makes it for the firm more attractive to give someone a chance (with a different background / knowledge, firms always have to take a risk), and give the graduate the chance to gain international experience.
Quite often, I´ve heard of people doing great in such a praktikum, and getting a "real" job. Personally, I´d only do such a thing if there is a real chance of getting an actual job after some months, the pay is decent, and there is a scholarship at hand. If they let you work as a regular employee, there´s no sense in getting paid less, I´d reckon...
European Internships / Praktikum... for graduates?
I am Canadian but graduated in June of this year with my masters in architecture from Kunstakadamiets Arkitektskole in Copenhagen. Basically, I'm an EU certified architect, and I have an EU work permit and valid residence in Germany and Denmark.
I've had 5 job interviews in the last two weeks, and every single one has--after discovering that I'm from Canada--offered me a 'praktikum' instead of the position I applied for. A prakitkum or internship in Europe is supposed to be for students, and is very low paid (max 400 euro/month).
This works okay if you are a student in the EU because most students get a stipend or student supplement from the government while they do praktikums, meaning they can get experience without having to compete with experienced architects and the firms don't lose money on the inexperienced intern. (At least, that is how it is supposed to work).
I finally asked one of the firms why they were offering me a praktikum instead of a position and they said that all the graduates from the USA are willing to do praktikums so they assumed that I would too.
I understand taking a praktikum while you're still a student, or between bachelors and masters. But accepting a super low-paid student position after you have a masters seems pretty ridiculous to me. It leads to a situation where firms know they can get fresh interns every 6 months and they will do the same work a regular employee would do.
Most of the people on this forum are from the States... can you tell me... have you thought about taking a praktkum in Europe just to get some experience? Or do you know people who are doing this?
I understand that everyone has a different position, so what are your thoughts? Would you take a student position just to get your foot in the door even if you already have internship experience and have graduated with a masters? Even if you know you are contributing to a larger problem?
I am in the same situation, however I graduated with a Canadian masters. However I also have an EU passport meaning although I am even done school I qualify for EU financial help on top of my shitty wage.
Currently I am working for a startchitect and basically most people in the office had to start as a praktikum although they were european and done school. I took the position because I came to Europe to be with my significant other, otherwise I would not even consider it. I figure if I cannot get a real job after this, that's it. I am leaving. Also its good to take this while I look for other positions. And it has worked a bit I already have two interviews lined up because of this.
If I were you I would only consider it if the architect is famous and everyone else had to do it. I do know of Americans who got real jobs here in Europe after they were done school even in this economic situation. If I were you I would try and bargain a little, and still shop around.
Stephanie, how much time do you have on your work permit? Could it be that they think you're not going to be able to stay long term and thus offer you their typical short term position?
It could be acceptable that you do a praktikum after graduation if you haven't done one while in school, and therefore lack the experience. But I would not take it otherwise. How is it even legal for them to offer a student position to people who are not students?
archinet: lucky you for getting financial help! I really hope your praktikum turns into something more solid soon. How long have you worked there? I'm just wondering how long you need to get experience before you can be seen as having enough skills for a 'real' position...
miesian: my permit is for a year, but I've let my potential employers know that it is renewable if I have a job and that I intend to stay in Germany for at least 5 years if I can. I have also let them know that I will be enrolled in German lessons as soon as I have a position... sigh.
The fact is that it is legal for them to offer praktikums, but illegal for them to make you do the work of a regular employee while paying you a praktikum wage.... and this makes it super hard to take legal action because no employers will put down in paper what your actual duties are. There's an article in one of the magazines here about exploitation of interns. Most creative industries put secrecy clauses in their praktikum contracts so you cannot talk about it for 1 year after you finish.
I was able to get 2 interviews for 'real' positions, but won't hear back until the next week about them. Fingers crossed.
My contract if for 6 months, so we'll see. Also my duties are far beyond praktikum. I think its less about my past experience (i did do this during school) and more about testing me out before offering me something solid.
good luck
I've done this - twice. One, before graduation with an M.Arch, once after. In both cases I was paid a decent wage: in one firm because they paid all their employees decently, in the other because I negotiated and made it clear that I had graduated and needed more than they would typically pay an intern from the EU.
it happens from time to time - mainly if you are not yet really knowledgeable in the language. At least, in Germany that´s quite a big point. Other than that, EU graduates can get a scholarship for a couple of months - which makes it for the firm more attractive to give someone a chance (with a different background / knowledge, firms always have to take a risk), and give the graduate the chance to gain international experience.
Quite often, I´ve heard of people doing great in such a praktikum, and getting a "real" job. Personally, I´d only do such a thing if there is a real chance of getting an actual job after some months, the pay is decent, and there is a scholarship at hand. If they let you work as a regular employee, there´s no sense in getting paid less, I´d reckon...
Watching this thread. As I am also really interested doing an internship in Europe (perhaps a year from now, though).
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