'OK ... I know it's not popular to pose such queries. As architects we don't like money, right?'
this is my biggest complaint about architects. when are we going to understand that those who control where the money is allocated, inevitably dictate the design (obviously, there are exceptions)
i applaud those schools (like mine) who are beginning to recognize dual degrees (i.e. with business/city and regional planning/civil)
i think we are only adding to our own demise if this reality of multidisciplinary integration isn't recognized sooner rather than later
If anyone here can honestly say that they routinely get clients who come in saying something like: Here is my money, here are my ideas, but I want you to exercise your knowledge and ideas to create the building - you know best.
How about this: Someone needs an operation - they've read a few medical books to get an idea of how its done. they go to their doctor and proceed to instruct the doctor how they want it done, where, when and for how much.
Sound familiar?
If you want to make money, you need to use your education, and every bit of skill and ambition you've got to effect change, whether that be in development or whatever other endeavour you choose to apply yourself. The biggest obstacle you will face [aside from yourself] is the architecture profession.
If you control the money, then you control petty much everything.
You can become an in-house architect for some retail company. All the big box retailers have on staff architects and they typically do better salary/benefit wise, at least at the lower levels of the profession.
If you are just starting out, wanting IDP hours, etc. There really aren't many options for making "good" money unless you work side jobs. Do your daily gig and on evenings and weekends do freelance renderings or something.
If you just want to do CAD monkey work I hear there is a big demand for new off shore oil rigs in the gulf. Not sure what it pays, but I'm sure someone has to draw up the plans. Probably better bet than getting a CAD job with NASA.
cypress, don't worry so much about paying off those loans, it's really not as bad as you think. i have commented here before that, assuming inflation stays at its current rate and you have loans consolidated at low interest, it will actually be to your benefit to pay as little as possible as long as you can. at current rates, student loans are cheap or virtually free money. even if you do find a job where you make a lot of money, if I were you I'd put it toward my retirement account, rainy day savings, and buying a house well before I'd even think of paying off the loans.
if you live relatively modestly (which, in my opinion, we should ALL be doing anyway regardless of how much money we make) you should be able to keep your head above water just fine even as an architect.
anyway, to answer your question, i hear you can make some great money if you're willing to join the reconstruction effort in Iraq or Afghanistan. your examples of Antarctica and NASA sound more like engineering type work. there are some arch. firms that do "mission critical facilities" type work, but the money was only good for the people who had the idea originally in the mid 90's.
Architects with money are generally born with it or marry it. There is a saying something along the lines of ‘marry for money the first time and love the second time, the other way around doesn’t work’.
I don't believe in keeping debt because it's 'cheap', as long as you have dept someone owns you. Returns on investments are not always guaranteed, I put a lump of cash on my favourite horse in the market and lost half of it when a hurricane and some other unfortunate mishaps occurred, I’ll be lucky to break even in a year… if that $ went onto my loan my payments would finished a year early.
Don't forget the business you got yourself into. See this
Hey, it's tough but so long as you are making it and generally happy with life you're ok. Just heard on the radio that most lotto winners end up in depression. At least architects have a valid reason for ending up in depression.
i do all of the interviewing and hiring for my company ... i can't tell you how many times i've interviewed candidates with 6-8 years of experience who have been working in something like the corporate facility office of some company like Taco Bell ...
these candidates have made a bunch of money while in these jobs and probably paid off their student debt and they've grown used to a certain lifestyle outside the office, but they've received no valuable work experience at all ... they complain bitterly about the lack of interest in design where they work ... they're desparate to "get out"
we're a pretty high style firm and such candidates unfortunately have nothing meaningful to offer a firm like ours, even if they have a decent student portfolio ... if we do see something we can work with, the wages we can offer (and we're a highly competitive firm) are much lower than what they've grown accustomed to ...
when the conversation reaches this point, the candidate typically goes into shock ... the realization sinks in ... they can't keep earning that kind of money and still go to work for a good design firm ... bad place to be ...
be careful what professional blind alleys you walk down ...
good points quizzical, but there are also good and bad corporate architecture jobs. A good case study would be Target corporation. In the big box world I find them to be putting out some of the more engaging architecture. I conceed most are exercises in elevation fenestration but their designs are very different between different regions of the country. On the other side is another local retailer I'm familiar with, Best Buy. They insist on their "trademark" blue wedge at every store, unless the city will absolutely not allow it. You are right though. The money is usually profoundly better. I've done my fair share of retail, all be it not in the corporate office arena, but after you do a strip mall for low pay it does become easy to rationalize doing big box for at least a decent salary.
i have both an architecture degree and an mba ... out of graduate school, i went to work as a construction manager with a very good development company ... i learned more about architecture there than i ever did in an architectural office ... i also made a lot more money ... most importantly, the experience made me a better architect and it helped me appreciate what our clients need and want ... in the end, because i wanted to practice, i re-entered the profession and make above average wages
my main caution above was about the blind chase for money ... i've seen too many young people, reacting to pressure from loans or spouses or lifestyle wants, chase big dollars without sufficient consideration of the actual job experience that might be had, only to end up in a bad place ... invariably, that becomes a trap from which there are few acceptable exits
This is an interesting and enlightening discussion.
I'm interested in practicing architecture over the long run and am basically fishing for good ideas on how to make a good salary and complete the IDP in the process.
Thus far I have a couple years of post MArch experience in 'star' firms and am iching to change environments. Ideally I'd like to balance salary with good experience. Quizzical ... can you say more about the construction manager position?
i'm with form 64, learn to build well, and build what you design, there is nothing more satisfactory for me, and if you get the hang of it, there are big bucks in it......well what are big bucks for me are peanuts to the north americas, but in any case it should be the same everywhere
c ... well, i can say that the firm is a large commercial developer, based in the southeast ... the company develops upscale properties and they have a real passion for quality ... i spent several years managing the design and construction process on 1,000,000 sq. ft. projects ... i hired the architects, managed the permitting process, hired the g.c., administered the development loan and served as the owner's rep. during the construction phase ...
the best part ... it was mostly my decision about whether the design was ready to go, or not ...
but, you probably need to understand this ... they probably would not have hired me for this position without my having both the b. arch and the mba ... on occasion, the company would hire construction managers who were architects but without the mba ... but they tended to be much older than i was at that time and they tended to have non-traditional construction experience by the time they were hired ...
c ... oh ... by the way ... i had my license before i went for my mba ... when i was working for the developer, i was not working under the supervision of a licensed architect ... in today's world, if i did not already have my license, i'm not sure that time with the development company would count toward idp
Architecture is in the unfortunate position of being a non-money making enterprise that requires the skills held by the profitable professions. I think the key to this is to speciallize in one of those trades, be it Rendering, Graphic Design, Real Estate, Web design, Carpentry, Advertizing, Interior decorating. Flash animation. Make money there and use the skills you learn to make your architecture better.
interesting point zoe. mark dytham, of klein dytham is a good example of this approach. i don't think i know anyone better at self-promotion and graphic design. but he is also a first rate architect and the former wouldn't help if the latter wasn't present.
as far as making money goes most of the architects i know are fairly comfortable once they get past the first few years, but the only one i know who really has a chance to be super wealthy is my current design partner. basically he runs a fund based on him buying old apt buildings and renovating them for rent to expats in tokyo. high end and nice designs, but still cheaper than roppongi hills (i am told apts there run to 15G/month). it is turning out to be a quick course in business that makes my head bounce, and i am not even doing any of it. just being involved from the side is revealing enough. listening to the investment and banking deals, and all of the energy required to make various tricks and techniques work is amazing. the folks who do these deals for a living work friggin hard and have been doing it for so long they can make their way, but for architects the road is perilous. seriously full of pitfalls, tricks, and ruthless businessmen waiting to take advantage. even worse the whole system and culture is slightly unreal. no wonder we never make any cash as designers. we weren't trained for it and playing catch up is seriously tuf. only way to get rich though, far as i can tell...
If making money is your primary concern, try getting a firm to bring you over to China. You can make a salary here working for a Western company that is equal to what you would make back home, and the cost of living here is about a quarter of what it is in the states.
Problem is, if you're really looking to learn about the construction trade and do some high quality work, it's going to be hard to find it over here. Projects may have a lot of money pumped into them, but the main goal is to build fast. Which means compromised designs and poor construction. And everything has to go through the design institutes before it is built, so a lot of what you design could end up completely altered without your control.
But there's definitely money to be made and if you can stand to put learning and quality on hold for a year, you can save up a lot of money.
Do an expatriate job. They seem to pay well, plus you get arrangements like 3months on, 2weeks off each 3 months (42 days of vacation), all airfare & all living expenses PAID.
Some of the oil company guys here in Luanda get 28days on (7days a wk), & 28 off!!
How to make good money?
OK ... I know it's not popular to pose such queries. As architects we don't like money, right?
But I have massive student loans and want to pay them off.
Do any of you know how to get a job doing architecture that pays REALLY well?
become a developer...
shit, do you think that if any of us knew how to make tons of money in architecture, we'd share that secret with you?
I'm not looking for the details of your new Patent ...
Bingo, Pixelwhore.
Err, what I mean is, yeah, you're right, Pixel, not "Try bingo to make a lot of money!"
Although there is money to be made at the game.
Bingo ... I've tried it ... doesn't count toward IDP though ...
I was thinking more along the lines of designing in Antarctica, or doing CD work for NASA, ....
I've heard that the BINGO circuit in Vegas is pretty crazy. Granted I heard it from a friend that frequents Vegas for free hotdogs...
corporate firm
Poker, not bingo.
work for a developer, the rumors are true
build what you design.
worked for me.
learn/study the BUSINESS, to have control over the funding of a project you must first know how to manage the resources
or if you cant beat em, join em...
www.jonathansegalarchitect.com/
its not 'selling out', contrary to what they brainwash us to believe in school
quick rant...
'OK ... I know it's not popular to pose such queries. As architects we don't like money, right?'
this is my biggest complaint about architects. when are we going to understand that those who control where the money is allocated, inevitably dictate the design (obviously, there are exceptions)
i applaud those schools (like mine) who are beginning to recognize dual degrees (i.e. with business/city and regional planning/civil)
i think we are only adding to our own demise if this reality of multidisciplinary integration isn't recognized sooner rather than later
options trading
since the world is pretty much going to hell, start selling short
soon you'll be just like me, indy wealthy enough to be watching dvd's while eating a long brunch on a workday
Rebel's right,
If anyone here can honestly say that they routinely get clients who come in saying something like: Here is my money, here are my ideas, but I want you to exercise your knowledge and ideas to create the building - you know best.
How about this: Someone needs an operation - they've read a few medical books to get an idea of how its done. they go to their doctor and proceed to instruct the doctor how they want it done, where, when and for how much.
Sound familiar?
If you want to make money, you need to use your education, and every bit of skill and ambition you've got to effect change, whether that be in development or whatever other endeavour you choose to apply yourself. The biggest obstacle you will face [aside from yourself] is the architecture profession.
If you control the money, then you control petty much everything.
oh, puddles, how I envy you....
I only ever lost money at Vegas bingo. But the crowd-watching is priceless.
You can become an in-house architect for some retail company. All the big box retailers have on staff architects and they typically do better salary/benefit wise, at least at the lower levels of the profession.
If you are just starting out, wanting IDP hours, etc. There really aren't many options for making "good" money unless you work side jobs. Do your daily gig and on evenings and weekends do freelance renderings or something.
If you just want to do CAD monkey work I hear there is a big demand for new off shore oil rigs in the gulf. Not sure what it pays, but I'm sure someone has to draw up the plans. Probably better bet than getting a CAD job with NASA.
Thanks A ... that's helpful ...
google stock just jumped 40 some odd points.
cypress, don't worry so much about paying off those loans, it's really not as bad as you think. i have commented here before that, assuming inflation stays at its current rate and you have loans consolidated at low interest, it will actually be to your benefit to pay as little as possible as long as you can. at current rates, student loans are cheap or virtually free money. even if you do find a job where you make a lot of money, if I were you I'd put it toward my retirement account, rainy day savings, and buying a house well before I'd even think of paying off the loans.
if you live relatively modestly (which, in my opinion, we should ALL be doing anyway regardless of how much money we make) you should be able to keep your head above water just fine even as an architect.
anyway, to answer your question, i hear you can make some great money if you're willing to join the reconstruction effort in Iraq or Afghanistan. your examples of Antarctica and NASA sound more like engineering type work. there are some arch. firms that do "mission critical facilities" type work, but the money was only good for the people who had the idea originally in the mid 90's.
Architects with money are generally born with it or marry it. There is a saying something along the lines of ‘marry for money the first time and love the second time, the other way around doesn’t work’.
I don't believe in keeping debt because it's 'cheap', as long as you have dept someone owns you. Returns on investments are not always guaranteed, I put a lump of cash on my favourite horse in the market and lost half of it when a hurricane and some other unfortunate mishaps occurred, I’ll be lucky to break even in a year… if that $ went onto my loan my payments would finished a year early.
Don't forget the business you got yourself into. See this
Hey, it's tough but so long as you are making it and generally happy with life you're ok. Just heard on the radio that most lotto winners end up in depression. At least architects have a valid reason for ending up in depression.
just a cautionary note ...
i do all of the interviewing and hiring for my company ... i can't tell you how many times i've interviewed candidates with 6-8 years of experience who have been working in something like the corporate facility office of some company like Taco Bell ...
these candidates have made a bunch of money while in these jobs and probably paid off their student debt and they've grown used to a certain lifestyle outside the office, but they've received no valuable work experience at all ... they complain bitterly about the lack of interest in design where they work ... they're desparate to "get out"
we're a pretty high style firm and such candidates unfortunately have nothing meaningful to offer a firm like ours, even if they have a decent student portfolio ... if we do see something we can work with, the wages we can offer (and we're a highly competitive firm) are much lower than what they've grown accustomed to ...
when the conversation reaches this point, the candidate typically goes into shock ... the realization sinks in ... they can't keep earning that kind of money and still go to work for a good design firm ... bad place to be ...
be careful what professional blind alleys you walk down ...
good points quizzical, but there are also good and bad corporate architecture jobs. A good case study would be Target corporation. In the big box world I find them to be putting out some of the more engaging architecture. I conceed most are exercises in elevation fenestration but their designs are very different between different regions of the country. On the other side is another local retailer I'm familiar with, Best Buy. They insist on their "trademark" blue wedge at every store, unless the city will absolutely not allow it. You are right though. The money is usually profoundly better. I've done my fair share of retail, all be it not in the corporate office arena, but after you do a strip mall for low pay it does become easy to rationalize doing big box for at least a decent salary.
a ... i accept what you say
i have both an architecture degree and an mba ... out of graduate school, i went to work as a construction manager with a very good development company ... i learned more about architecture there than i ever did in an architectural office ... i also made a lot more money ... most importantly, the experience made me a better architect and it helped me appreciate what our clients need and want ... in the end, because i wanted to practice, i re-entered the profession and make above average wages
my main caution above was about the blind chase for money ... i've seen too many young people, reacting to pressure from loans or spouses or lifestyle wants, chase big dollars without sufficient consideration of the actual job experience that might be had, only to end up in a bad place ... invariably, that becomes a trap from which there are few acceptable exits
This is an interesting and enlightening discussion.
I'm interested in practicing architecture over the long run and am basically fishing for good ideas on how to make a good salary and complete the IDP in the process.
Thus far I have a couple years of post MArch experience in 'star' firms and am iching to change environments. Ideally I'd like to balance salary with good experience. Quizzical ... can you say more about the construction manager position?
i'm with form 64, learn to build well, and build what you design, there is nothing more satisfactory for me, and if you get the hang of it, there are big bucks in it......well what are big bucks for me are peanuts to the north americas, but in any case it should be the same everywhere
c ... well, i can say that the firm is a large commercial developer, based in the southeast ... the company develops upscale properties and they have a real passion for quality ... i spent several years managing the design and construction process on 1,000,000 sq. ft. projects ... i hired the architects, managed the permitting process, hired the g.c., administered the development loan and served as the owner's rep. during the construction phase ...
the best part ... it was mostly my decision about whether the design was ready to go, or not ...
but, you probably need to understand this ... they probably would not have hired me for this position without my having both the b. arch and the mba ... on occasion, the company would hire construction managers who were architects but without the mba ... but they tended to be much older than i was at that time and they tended to have non-traditional construction experience by the time they were hired ...
hope this helps ...
c ... oh ... by the way ... i had my license before i went for my mba ... when i was working for the developer, i was not working under the supervision of a licensed architect ... in today's world, if i did not already have my license, i'm not sure that time with the development company would count toward idp
Architecture is in the unfortunate position of being a non-money making enterprise that requires the skills held by the profitable professions. I think the key to this is to speciallize in one of those trades, be it Rendering, Graphic Design, Real Estate, Web design, Carpentry, Advertizing, Interior decorating. Flash animation. Make money there and use the skills you learn to make your architecture better.
interesting point zoe. mark dytham, of klein dytham is a good example of this approach. i don't think i know anyone better at self-promotion and graphic design. but he is also a first rate architect and the former wouldn't help if the latter wasn't present.
as far as making money goes most of the architects i know are fairly comfortable once they get past the first few years, but the only one i know who really has a chance to be super wealthy is my current design partner. basically he runs a fund based on him buying old apt buildings and renovating them for rent to expats in tokyo. high end and nice designs, but still cheaper than roppongi hills (i am told apts there run to 15G/month). it is turning out to be a quick course in business that makes my head bounce, and i am not even doing any of it. just being involved from the side is revealing enough. listening to the investment and banking deals, and all of the energy required to make various tricks and techniques work is amazing. the folks who do these deals for a living work friggin hard and have been doing it for so long they can make their way, but for architects the road is perilous. seriously full of pitfalls, tricks, and ruthless businessmen waiting to take advantage. even worse the whole system and culture is slightly unreal. no wonder we never make any cash as designers. we weren't trained for it and playing catch up is seriously tuf. only way to get rich though, far as i can tell...
the only way to make money is to give it away
If making money is your primary concern, try getting a firm to bring you over to China. You can make a salary here working for a Western company that is equal to what you would make back home, and the cost of living here is about a quarter of what it is in the states.
Problem is, if you're really looking to learn about the construction trade and do some high quality work, it's going to be hard to find it over here. Projects may have a lot of money pumped into them, but the main goal is to build fast. Which means compromised designs and poor construction. And everything has to go through the design institutes before it is built, so a lot of what you design could end up completely altered without your control.
But there's definitely money to be made and if you can stand to put learning and quality on hold for a year, you can save up a lot of money.
john, i'll PM you my paypal account immediately ;-)
rebel guy -- what school is that??
texas tech
these schools also recognize such degrees...
www.aia.org/nwsltr_aiaj.cfm?pagename=aiaj_a_0404_dualdegrees
Do an expatriate job. They seem to pay well, plus you get arrangements like 3months on, 2weeks off each 3 months (42 days of vacation), all airfare & all living expenses PAID.
Some of the oil company guys here in Luanda get 28days on (7days a wk), & 28 off!!
related AIA article
www.aia.org/nwsltr_aiaj.cfm?pagename=aiaj_a_0404_appliedlearning
Ha ha ha. I bet.
Also, one can go on craigslist and email every damn gig job and do that instead of have a life.
People on here have lives??
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