I've been a heavy mac user and learned FormZ + Vectorworks, but I realize the futility of this and I need to get AutoCAD, 3Ds, Rhino, possibly Maya and others under my belt, in addition to running all the Adobe stuff.
The suggestions I've picked up so far are to buy a gaming box (Alien etc), or a more professional workstation (Dell etc). I'm on a tight budget so I'm looking into building my own. From what I can tell, Moore's law seems to have lagged a bit and the trend now is to double up the parts.
What I'm wondering is whether the programs mentioned can fully utilize the technology, or is it more practical still going with the standard single unit. Specifically I'm referring to dual procs, RAID, Nvidia SLI. Also are these programs 64 bit native?
there might be some rather fancy dual core Super douper g5's coming out this week. they will eat anything you can throw at them- and with maya on mac- why not? but it would eat your budget though....
i'va had a dual processor for a while and its brilliant- esp with workflow- the ability to keep switching between programs constantly.
Doesn't sound like you're hurting too much for money, I couldn't even begin to think about affording the type of machine you are thinking of building. For the money the Dell low-end power edge which is like a SC-430 or something will occasionally dip down to around $300 or so. I am going to pick one of those up and add a more robust video card and a bunch of ram.
The thing to remember about 64 bit (I have 64 bit Opterons) is that, unless you are using more than 4 GB of RAM, Microsoft will say it might not even be worth the upgrade.
got a budget for hardware? need a monitor? need windows, or do you get it free through a university MSDN?
I see so many clueless computer posts, I'm tempted to just throw up a guide on my website.
If you give a budget and what you need, I can spec something for you.
in answer to some of your questions though:
1) dual processors or dual core processors are almost always useful if you can afford them.
2) there are many kinds of RAID, most aren't worth it unless you have extra money to spend.
3)SLI significantly helps only a small set of workstation programs at the moment. it isn't worth it.
4) it's going to be a few years before all the major programs you mentioned are transitioned to 64 bit. some 32 bit programs will see a small performance boost from running in a 64 bit OS, but it's minor and hard to pin down. stick with 32 bit windows for now.
It seems to me that if you are asking general questions (an the Moore's law, which is currently still applicable to processors), that you should avoid trying to build something.
If money is an issue, there is no way you'd be buying two graphic cards, anyway.
Buy a Dell. Keeps it simple and reliable.
manamana is right, too.
RAID is great if you have the $$ and need it (I've got a RAID 5 config on my main workstation). But with little $$ it's a luxury.
Your best bet is to put the most $$ into the processors. Those will do the rendering and most of the work. I find that unless you spend more than a $1k on a graphic card, it's not that noticable (for work, I am not a gamer). I've got two Quadros and an ancient gefore2 and it's a difference that I don't think is worth the bucks.
Yes, programs can use the hardware. Learn about all this, though, before you just throw money at the problem. Read around on specific sites about how things work and what'll be best for you.
and/or - it's not really up yet (I'm working on it) but I have the domain and hosting that isn't being used ATM, so I was thinking I could type something up quick and throw it up there till I needed the bandwidth for something else.
A caution on RAID: Raid can be a nice luxury (some types will allow you to continue working without a hitch in the event of a HD failure) but many people seem to fall into a false sense of security, believeing that RAID is a substitute for regular backups, which it isn't. There is no substitute for regular offline backups, which is usually cheaper anyway.
1. there's plenty out there on moore's law and the current limitations it faces. it won't be holding longer than 5 years without some big breakthroughs.
2. as for GPUs i could spend $500 on one card with 256mb or (2) $250 with 128mb each. so there is a way, actually...
3. RAID = redundant array of INEXPENSIVE disks. if you buy Dell, they'll tell you its a luxury; its not.
4. i was asking software questions. i have plenty of experience putting machines together, mac and pc. if you can't understand the appeal of creating something for yourself, why are you in design? dell makes some of the ugliest, most poorly designed cases. why accept it?
manamana
i appreciate the offer, but i didn't ask for you to spec my machine. i'm simply wondering if there are people out there using the mentioned software and hardware together, and what their experience has been. not really sure why that makes me clueless...
in regards to the budget, i'm simply looking to make the most of the money i spend on this. with patience you can put a machine together and save some cash, or make it go further than lining dell's pockets. "budget" is entirely relative. if i were to make the comparison to cars, i need BMW performance with a Toyota pricetag. buying a Kia will only cost more in the end and prove to be a waste of money.
"I'm on a tight budget so I'm looking into building my own."
Usually that implies that there's not much money to be spent.
Hey, I was just trying to help. I am surprised you didn't know that you need 64 bit programs to take advantage of it, and that it'll be a while before you'll get the most out of it.
There are also several suggestions that there will be new technology, however, 5 years out (for Moore's law) is longer than most will keep a computer, particularly a workstation.
I got my RAID 5, 3 250 gig drives, for about $400. That's as cheap as any newegg or whatever price.
your car analogy is perfect - if you want the support for a Toyota, you will pay a little more (although I think you'd find that my newest workstation is as cheap as you could build it yourself, you just have to negotiate with the sales people - and yes, they do have the flexibility to go down in price), but you get the support. If you don't care about the support, or would rather do it yourself, then you can build your own car.
Personally, I prefer to spend my time (art, architecture, graphics, etc.) on other things besides putting together a computer. Just as with a car, I am not going to build it myself just because I love design. To each his own.
Again, I was just offering opinions that I thought would might help. Perhaps next time you should be more clear for what you are asking.
sorry, I didn't mean anything specific in regards to your post, I just meant that it seamed like alot of people around here ask alot of basic computer questions, and a general guide might be useful. apologies.
a few things from your last post:
RAID = redundant array of independent disks. I've seen "inexpensive" written on occasion, but most of the time it's "independent"
it is rather expensive to do properly (comparatively speaking), useful in a practical sense in only a few specific cases, and is vastly over-fetishized by the gamer computer crowd. most people will see better real-life performance from spreading their tasks across multiple non-Raided drives, which is less complicated and less expensive.
GPUs- if you're doing alot of autocad, having a quadro or fireGL class card is wonderful just for the ability to enable hardware AnitiAliased lines. makes complicated drawings much easier to read. Not necessary but really nice.
As I said earlier I'd avoid SLI. put all your graphics card money into one good card.
performance/$ right now is the AMD X2 line. If I was buying a computer right now, I'd get a 4400+ or 4800+ and a boatload of ram.
thanks for the help, i'll take your advice re SLI. the anti-aliasing of the quadro cards is nice, but boy do they make you pay for it. according to nvidia the gforce 6 + 7 series have something called "Intellisample Technology" which is supposed to provide anti-alias. for under $400 what would you go with? i'm currently looking at the GeForce 7800, 6800 (which Alias doesn't recommend for Maya) and the Quadro 1400, 1300
trace
i know that you need 64 bit native programs to take advantage of 64 bit processors. macs have been 64 bit since g5s came out, that's why i asked if the software *WHICH I HAVEN'T USED* was 64 bit native or not. please excuse me if my ignorance shocks your delicate sensibilities in all things computer related...
also you can get SATA 250gb seagates for $108 on newegg - but i'm sure your sales rep buddy appreciates the support.
Those disks were bought about 8 months ago, prices weren't that cheap back then, and that's not including the hardware for the RAID (that came with the price) or the assembly. Which, to me, my time is worth $.
Now I'll just assume that we are starting over here, as there's no point continuing this bickering. I don't want to build, you do, that's fine.
I have a Quadro 700 gxl in one workstation and a Quadro 1400 in the new one (they gave me the 1400 for the price of the 680). Honestly, I don't notice a real difference. Not enough to justify the price. I've used machines with Fire cards, Geforce's (5800 I think was the newest I've used), and from talking with friends that have used more, you need to go to the top end Quadros (like the 4000 something) to get any really noticable improvements.
if you're in the states, there's a great company in CA that offers as many customizing choices as building it yourself and you can save some cash by buying as complete/incomplete as you like
if you want something to just plug in and go, the 1400 is a good buy. you might find a firegl 5100 in that range as well.
there's also the subject of software modding. some cards can be tweaked with rivatuner to enable professional capabilities, but finding out which cards work (and tracking one down) and the procedures and such may be more time and effort than you want to spend. If you've got some time to kill, start reading.
also, I just got an email about the socket 939 opteron 1xx serries finally shipping. prices might take a while to even out, but the 165, 170, and 175 might make a good (or maybe better) alternative to the X2 line.
concerning graphic performance with max, I wouldn't bother buyng a good graphic gard just for that. The program has basically a crappy, 20 years old graphic inteface that's just bad, even with a top graphic gard set to open GL and stuff. Good graphic performance are useful in photoshop or maybe if you use maya, which is suposedly better in that respect. If not, just get an average card and you'll be fine. You should spend more on ram and processors.
Oct 20, 05 5:44 am ·
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Ubernerd Forum: Building a Workstation
I've been a heavy mac user and learned FormZ + Vectorworks, but I realize the futility of this and I need to get AutoCAD, 3Ds, Rhino, possibly Maya and others under my belt, in addition to running all the Adobe stuff.
The suggestions I've picked up so far are to buy a gaming box (Alien etc), or a more professional workstation (Dell etc). I'm on a tight budget so I'm looking into building my own. From what I can tell, Moore's law seems to have lagged a bit and the trend now is to double up the parts.
What I'm wondering is whether the programs mentioned can fully utilize the technology, or is it more practical still going with the standard single unit. Specifically I'm referring to dual procs, RAID, Nvidia SLI. Also are these programs 64 bit native?
Thanks
there might be some rather fancy dual core Super douper g5's coming out this week. they will eat anything you can throw at them- and with maya on mac- why not? but it would eat your budget though....
i'va had a dual processor for a while and its brilliant- esp with workflow- the ability to keep switching between programs constantly.
Doesn't sound like you're hurting too much for money, I couldn't even begin to think about affording the type of machine you are thinking of building. For the money the Dell low-end power edge which is like a SC-430 or something will occasionally dip down to around $300 or so. I am going to pick one of those up and add a more robust video card and a bunch of ram.
The thing to remember about 64 bit (I have 64 bit Opterons) is that, unless you are using more than 4 GB of RAM, Microsoft will say it might not even be worth the upgrade.
got a budget for hardware? need a monitor? need windows, or do you get it free through a university MSDN?
I see so many clueless computer posts, I'm tempted to just throw up a guide on my website.
If you give a budget and what you need, I can spec something for you.
in answer to some of your questions though:
1) dual processors or dual core processors are almost always useful if you can afford them.
2) there are many kinds of RAID, most aren't worth it unless you have extra money to spend.
3)SLI significantly helps only a small set of workstation programs at the moment. it isn't worth it.
4) it's going to be a few years before all the major programs you mentioned are transitioned to 64 bit. some 32 bit programs will see a small performance boost from running in a 64 bit OS, but it's minor and hard to pin down. stick with 32 bit windows for now.
what's your website?
It seems to me that if you are asking general questions (an the Moore's law, which is currently still applicable to processors), that you should avoid trying to build something.
If money is an issue, there is no way you'd be buying two graphic cards, anyway.
Buy a Dell. Keeps it simple and reliable.
manamana is right, too.
RAID is great if you have the $$ and need it (I've got a RAID 5 config on my main workstation). But with little $$ it's a luxury.
Your best bet is to put the most $$ into the processors. Those will do the rendering and most of the work. I find that unless you spend more than a $1k on a graphic card, it's not that noticable (for work, I am not a gamer). I've got two Quadros and an ancient gefore2 and it's a difference that I don't think is worth the bucks.
Yes, programs can use the hardware. Learn about all this, though, before you just throw money at the problem. Read around on specific sites about how things work and what'll be best for you.
and/or - it's not really up yet (I'm working on it) but I have the domain and hosting that isn't being used ATM, so I was thinking I could type something up quick and throw it up there till I needed the bandwidth for something else.
A caution on RAID: Raid can be a nice luxury (some types will allow you to continue working without a hitch in the event of a HD failure) but many people seem to fall into a false sense of security, believeing that RAID is a substitute for regular backups, which it isn't. There is no substitute for regular offline backups, which is usually cheaper anyway.
trace
1. there's plenty out there on moore's law and the current limitations it faces. it won't be holding longer than 5 years without some big breakthroughs.
2. as for GPUs i could spend $500 on one card with 256mb or (2) $250 with 128mb each. so there is a way, actually...
3. RAID = redundant array of INEXPENSIVE disks. if you buy Dell, they'll tell you its a luxury; its not.
4. i was asking software questions. i have plenty of experience putting machines together, mac and pc. if you can't understand the appeal of creating something for yourself, why are you in design? dell makes some of the ugliest, most poorly designed cases. why accept it?
manamana
i appreciate the offer, but i didn't ask for you to spec my machine. i'm simply wondering if there are people out there using the mentioned software and hardware together, and what their experience has been. not really sure why that makes me clueless...
in regards to the budget, i'm simply looking to make the most of the money i spend on this. with patience you can put a machine together and save some cash, or make it go further than lining dell's pockets. "budget" is entirely relative. if i were to make the comparison to cars, i need BMW performance with a Toyota pricetag. buying a Kia will only cost more in the end and prove to be a waste of money.
"I'm on a tight budget so I'm looking into building my own."
Usually that implies that there's not much money to be spent.
Hey, I was just trying to help. I am surprised you didn't know that you need 64 bit programs to take advantage of it, and that it'll be a while before you'll get the most out of it.
There are also several suggestions that there will be new technology, however, 5 years out (for Moore's law) is longer than most will keep a computer, particularly a workstation.
I got my RAID 5, 3 250 gig drives, for about $400. That's as cheap as any newegg or whatever price.
your car analogy is perfect - if you want the support for a Toyota, you will pay a little more (although I think you'd find that my newest workstation is as cheap as you could build it yourself, you just have to negotiate with the sales people - and yes, they do have the flexibility to go down in price), but you get the support. If you don't care about the support, or would rather do it yourself, then you can build your own car.
Personally, I prefer to spend my time (art, architecture, graphics, etc.) on other things besides putting together a computer. Just as with a car, I am not going to build it myself just because I love design. To each his own.
Again, I was just offering opinions that I thought would might help. Perhaps next time you should be more clear for what you are asking.
sorry, I didn't mean anything specific in regards to your post, I just meant that it seamed like alot of people around here ask alot of basic computer questions, and a general guide might be useful. apologies.
a few things from your last post:
RAID = redundant array of independent disks. I've seen "inexpensive" written on occasion, but most of the time it's "independent"
it is rather expensive to do properly (comparatively speaking), useful in a practical sense in only a few specific cases, and is vastly over-fetishized by the gamer computer crowd. most people will see better real-life performance from spreading their tasks across multiple non-Raided drives, which is less complicated and less expensive.
GPUs- if you're doing alot of autocad, having a quadro or fireGL class card is wonderful just for the ability to enable hardware AnitiAliased lines. makes complicated drawings much easier to read. Not necessary but really nice.
As I said earlier I'd avoid SLI. put all your graphics card money into one good card.
performance/$ right now is the AMD X2 line. If I was buying a computer right now, I'd get a 4400+ or 4800+ and a boatload of ram.
manamana
thanks for the help, i'll take your advice re SLI. the anti-aliasing of the quadro cards is nice, but boy do they make you pay for it. according to nvidia the gforce 6 + 7 series have something called "Intellisample Technology" which is supposed to provide anti-alias. for under $400 what would you go with? i'm currently looking at the GeForce 7800, 6800 (which Alias doesn't recommend for Maya) and the Quadro 1400, 1300
trace
i know that you need 64 bit native programs to take advantage of 64 bit processors. macs have been 64 bit since g5s came out, that's why i asked if the software *WHICH I HAVEN'T USED* was 64 bit native or not. please excuse me if my ignorance shocks your delicate sensibilities in all things computer related...
also you can get SATA 250gb seagates for $108 on newegg - but i'm sure your sales rep buddy appreciates the support.
Those disks were bought about 8 months ago, prices weren't that cheap back then, and that's not including the hardware for the RAID (that came with the price) or the assembly. Which, to me, my time is worth $.
Now I'll just assume that we are starting over here, as there's no point continuing this bickering. I don't want to build, you do, that's fine.
I have a Quadro 700 gxl in one workstation and a Quadro 1400 in the new one (they gave me the 1400 for the price of the 680). Honestly, I don't notice a real difference. Not enough to justify the price. I've used machines with Fire cards, Geforce's (5800 I think was the newest I've used), and from talking with friends that have used more, you need to go to the top end Quadros (like the 4000 something) to get any really noticable improvements.
This is for Max 6/7.
if you're in the states, there's a great company in CA that offers as many customizing choices as building it yourself and you can save some cash by buying as complete/incomplete as you like
don't let the cheesy flag graphic throw you ,they're quite good
if you want something to just plug in and go, the 1400 is a good buy. you might find a firegl 5100 in that range as well.
there's also the subject of software modding. some cards can be tweaked with rivatuner to enable professional capabilities, but finding out which cards work (and tracking one down) and the procedures and such may be more time and effort than you want to spend. If you've got some time to kill, start reading.
also, I just got an email about the socket 939 opteron 1xx serries finally shipping. prices might take a while to even out, but the 165, 170, and 175 might make a good (or maybe better) alternative to the X2 line.
concerning graphic performance with max, I wouldn't bother buyng a good graphic gard just for that. The program has basically a crappy, 20 years old graphic inteface that's just bad, even with a top graphic gard set to open GL and stuff. Good graphic performance are useful in photoshop or maybe if you use maya, which is suposedly better in that respect. If not, just get an average card and you'll be fine. You should spend more on ram and processors.
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