i am currently having a very bad experience with a contractor and wanted to know if others are finding themselves in similar situations.
i say the contractors run the show b/c i am finding that no matter how much they deviate from their contract the owner never seems to do anything about it.
eventhough all parties agree to specific terms, these terms are not always enforced - the owner would rather comprimise the design than speak up and demand what is rightfully his (or hers).
the result is that one by one essential design elements get chopped from the project - and in the end, all of the hard work that went into detailing and drawing is lost.
it's because the (bad) contractor spends more time with the client than the architect does, is always saying how 'the architect did this wrong...and that..' and builds up a repoire with them to get them to decide on major things without consulting the architect first, because they 'know' more than the architect does. but who do you think gets blamed if the stupid decisions made look like crap when its done?
we need MORE design build firms in this profession, or at least more architects acting as GC on their own projects (this alone would account for a 15% jump in profits, and probably way more efficiency)......
just be sure to over-document every tiny change or deviation from the contract and design documents, this has saved my ass many times, so when the client comes back pissed about something that didn't turn out right, you can plunk down a 50 pound pile of documentation that is very hard to ignore.
yes, a lot of contractors suck, but a few are great.....that's why they're never available....
Contractors will try to run the show if you let them, and give off a I don't know how to build anything vibe...... the best way to deal with them is to give them respect (even if they don't deserve it), let them know that both them and you are there to work for the project, and when they try to tell you how to or that a certain detail can't be done, that you will say well if you can't do it give me X amount of money and I'll do it, that will make them come down from their high horse... it is better and more efficient to work together, each of you make your money, and bounce to the next job. Don't forget that the term Architect is master builder.... if the client won't stand up, then you do it......
el arki's got the right attitude (though i think you may lose some respect and void warranties if you take on work yourself). the key is, though, that you have to KNOW that the detail does work and can be done in the way that you've described it in drwgs and specs.
you have to not only project authority - the confidence that you know how things are done and how they must be done - but also not back down or let the contractor push you back.
that said, a lot of contractors will have good suggestions from which you can learn. listen, absorb, and decide what to take and what to leave. mutual respect, as el arki says, is key.
establish a 'chain of command' at the beginning of the project. even if the client is in more frequent contact with the contractor, a decision should never be made before you hear about it. a lot of times the contractor might prefer this anyway: time they spend jawing with the client is time that they're not working efficiently. if they're in a bid/fixed price/not-to-exceed situation, they need to be working or risk losing money.
I'll also resoundingly second that it's important to show the contractor that you do respect his knowledge, and are willing to learn from him and work with him to achieve the goals of the client.
But you have to know what you're talking about, too.
I've been both a contractor and an owner's rep and here'w my take. A good contractor would never do that, the problem is that most owners don't want to pay for a good contractor, they'd rather spend $100k on a CM to babysit a marginal contractor then spend $250k to get a good contractor, it doesn't make sense but a lot of people make their living off of this reality.
From an owner's perspective. A knowledgable owner knows when contractors aren't doing what they're supposed to. When they get away with it that doesn't mean that they're running the show. It means that I, as an owners rep, just want the damn thing finished at this point so I dont' have to deal with that contractor ever again. So, we let things slide at that point to make the completion of the project as quick and painless as possible.
well what about all the work that we architects put in on the job? i am really not interested in the owner's rep giving up just b/c he doesnt want to deal with the contractor anymore.
maybe that is the case with my current job - he just doesnt want to deal - but that is my point exactly...the contract was signed and agreed upon and the contractor gaurenteed a certain level of performace. at present he is not meeting anybodies expectations, but nobody is willing to take him to task on it.
so off he goes throwing ridiculous change orders at the job, doing work not to spec and nothing is happening to him. he is totally taking the owner for a ride and nobody is stopping him.
i can yell all i want but it doesnt matter until the owner actually does something. the owner agrees with me, but doesnt want the aggravation of getting it right.
incidentally, our spec writer has noticed that most architects he works with are finding the same issues.
this all leads to the architect having less authority and the public getting a lower quality product for no good reason other than to line the contractors pocket.
I think the architect needs to be the 'heavy' in this situation.
If the owner doesn't follow the architect's lead, then Oh well, but the owner needs a strong lead to follow, or he won't (most won't anyway).
If the issues being raised (and not followed through by the owner) are serious enough to cause concern over liability, safety, etc. then you need to consider resigning. Refer to your contract and lawyer first.
I hate playing the heavy too, but sometimes it is required.
F
as architect you are, in effect, an owners rep. even if there is another layer of oversight behind you. as owners rep it is your responsibility to make sure that the project is constructed as drawn and specified. being the 'heavy' is less a choice than an professional obligation.
there come times when value judgments must be made between the solution you want and the solution that is affordable, doable, etc - these need to be judgments made by the architect (in consultation with the owner, where appropriate).
ideally, the contractor should not have the same level of discretion, though you have to establish a threshold of discretion that is in the purview of the contractor in order to keep the project moving.
checking contractor references before singing a contract is very, very important.
i once worked on a project (simple A/C upgrade to an elementray school in LA) that was scheduled for 180 days of construction. By the time I had left that firm, the project had been under construction for two years and continued for another year after that. The contractor was the most inept builder I have ever come across, but his presence was the result of low-bidder rules on public projects. This guy was so bad that, a) he managed to find and install asbestos-containing roof cement around a new roof hatch (remember - this was an elementary school), b) install steel pipe bollards around the transformer too low, so he GLUED on pipe extensions and painted the whole thing silver, c) installed a USED secondary transformer, d) and aggravate everyone such that the project appeared on the FRONT PAGE of the SUNDAY LA TIMES. I nearly dropped my cup of coffee on the floor that sunday morning. That was the most heart-palpitating and dizzying professional experience I've ever had - and hope to never have again.
Funny thing is there was nothing the owner, CM or architect could do but be patient - the consequences of removing the contractor and finding someone to take over were too astronomical.
Here's the kicker - this contractor actually put me down as a reference when applying for insurance with another insurer. The insurance rep called me one afternoon to inquire about this contractor and I actually had to ask her to confirm that he had put me down as a reference and this wasn't a prank call. When I had finished laughing, I politely described some of the fiascos I had encountered and cautioned her to run, not walk, from this guy. My revenge...
"the owner agrees with me, but doesn’t want the aggravation of getting it right. "
eddieP, sounds like the problem is as much with the client as with the contractor. You are only able to “inform†your client so much. As long as you have pointed out and documented your observations, you have done your job. It is frustrating, for sure, but that is one of the pitfalls of commissioned projects.
i think you should make they owner sign something saying that you are not liable for all the changes done without your authorization, document those changes, and document the lack of response by the contractor, if the owner wakes up, tell the owner to hold the payments; if the owner doesn't wake up then consider quiting, but you should document all changes
also it is very important that you became friend of the owner and gain his trust, make him realize that design is very important and that he is probably going to regret the things he change just for money...., but the contractors also have good ideas and it is important to listen and learn.
Do you respond the contractors question fast, or you take forever...if you take log the contractor is going to think that you dont care about the project
funga:
RFI's are responded to ceratinly within the time allowed and most often they are returned within two days. i have been complemented by the owner on my prompt answers, good decision making and they definitely know that i am passionate about design in general and the project sepecifically.
i guess i just have to start dealing with the fact that the last word is with the owner - eventhough he is the owners rep, he has authority over payment and at the end of the day the schedule seems to be what drives decisions, regardless of how well i try to sell him on how important good design is. it is just too bad that we have all the tools in place to support our intent as drawn, but most owners refuse to say 'no' to the contractors.
...and funga, he have sent out multiple emails and 'official' memos regarding defecient work and work not done according to the drawings. rest assured, we have done everything possible to try and protect the design intent...
I agree with freg_arch above..."I think the architect needs to be the 'heavy' in this situation.
If the owner doesn't follow the architect's lead, then Oh well, but the owner needs a strong lead to follow..."
Frustrating yes, but I'm hearing a lot of "not me" in eddieP's dialogue, don't let your emotions get in the way of business.
Oct 21, 05 9:13 am ·
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Contractors Run The Show
i am currently having a very bad experience with a contractor and wanted to know if others are finding themselves in similar situations.
i say the contractors run the show b/c i am finding that no matter how much they deviate from their contract the owner never seems to do anything about it.
eventhough all parties agree to specific terms, these terms are not always enforced - the owner would rather comprimise the design than speak up and demand what is rightfully his (or hers).
the result is that one by one essential design elements get chopped from the project - and in the end, all of the hard work that went into detailing and drawing is lost.
it's because the (bad) contractor spends more time with the client than the architect does, is always saying how 'the architect did this wrong...and that..' and builds up a repoire with them to get them to decide on major things without consulting the architect first, because they 'know' more than the architect does. but who do you think gets blamed if the stupid decisions made look like crap when its done?
we need MORE design build firms in this profession, or at least more architects acting as GC on their own projects (this alone would account for a 15% jump in profits, and probably way more efficiency)......
just be sure to over-document every tiny change or deviation from the contract and design documents, this has saved my ass many times, so when the client comes back pissed about something that didn't turn out right, you can plunk down a 50 pound pile of documentation that is very hard to ignore.
yes, a lot of contractors suck, but a few are great.....that's why they're never available....
good luck.
Contractors will try to run the show if you let them, and give off a I don't know how to build anything vibe...... the best way to deal with them is to give them respect (even if they don't deserve it), let them know that both them and you are there to work for the project, and when they try to tell you how to or that a certain detail can't be done, that you will say well if you can't do it give me X amount of money and I'll do it, that will make them come down from their high horse... it is better and more efficient to work together, each of you make your money, and bounce to the next job. Don't forget that the term Architect is master builder.... if the client won't stand up, then you do it......
el arki's got the right attitude (though i think you may lose some respect and void warranties if you take on work yourself). the key is, though, that you have to KNOW that the detail does work and can be done in the way that you've described it in drwgs and specs.
you have to not only project authority - the confidence that you know how things are done and how they must be done - but also not back down or let the contractor push you back.
that said, a lot of contractors will have good suggestions from which you can learn. listen, absorb, and decide what to take and what to leave. mutual respect, as el arki says, is key.
establish a 'chain of command' at the beginning of the project. even if the client is in more frequent contact with the contractor, a decision should never be made before you hear about it. a lot of times the contractor might prefer this anyway: time they spend jawing with the client is time that they're not working efficiently. if they're in a bid/fixed price/not-to-exceed situation, they need to be working or risk losing money.
methinks being a "professional" requires that we truly know our stuff ... we can't just "act like it"
"winging it" is one of the main reasons architects don't get a lot of respect
Amen, quizzical.
I'll also resoundingly second that it's important to show the contractor that you do respect his knowledge, and are willing to learn from him and work with him to achieve the goals of the client.
But you have to know what you're talking about, too.
I've been both a contractor and an owner's rep and here'w my take. A good contractor would never do that, the problem is that most owners don't want to pay for a good contractor, they'd rather spend $100k on a CM to babysit a marginal contractor then spend $250k to get a good contractor, it doesn't make sense but a lot of people make their living off of this reality.
From an owner's perspective. A knowledgable owner knows when contractors aren't doing what they're supposed to. When they get away with it that doesn't mean that they're running the show. It means that I, as an owners rep, just want the damn thing finished at this point so I dont' have to deal with that contractor ever again. So, we let things slide at that point to make the completion of the project as quick and painless as possible.
HEY! tlmII
well what about all the work that we architects put in on the job? i am really not interested in the owner's rep giving up just b/c he doesnt want to deal with the contractor anymore.
maybe that is the case with my current job - he just doesnt want to deal - but that is my point exactly...the contract was signed and agreed upon and the contractor gaurenteed a certain level of performace. at present he is not meeting anybodies expectations, but nobody is willing to take him to task on it.
so off he goes throwing ridiculous change orders at the job, doing work not to spec and nothing is happening to him. he is totally taking the owner for a ride and nobody is stopping him.
i can yell all i want but it doesnt matter until the owner actually does something. the owner agrees with me, but doesnt want the aggravation of getting it right.
incidentally, our spec writer has noticed that most architects he works with are finding the same issues.
this all leads to the architect having less authority and the public getting a lower quality product for no good reason other than to line the contractors pocket.
I think the architect needs to be the 'heavy' in this situation.
If the owner doesn't follow the architect's lead, then Oh well, but the owner needs a strong lead to follow, or he won't (most won't anyway).
If the issues being raised (and not followed through by the owner) are serious enough to cause concern over liability, safety, etc. then you need to consider resigning. Refer to your contract and lawyer first.
I hate playing the heavy too, but sometimes it is required.
F
as architect you are, in effect, an owners rep. even if there is another layer of oversight behind you. as owners rep it is your responsibility to make sure that the project is constructed as drawn and specified. being the 'heavy' is less a choice than an professional obligation.
there come times when value judgments must be made between the solution you want and the solution that is affordable, doable, etc - these need to be judgments made by the architect (in consultation with the owner, where appropriate).
ideally, the contractor should not have the same level of discretion, though you have to establish a threshold of discretion that is in the purview of the contractor in order to keep the project moving.
checking contractor references before singing a contract is very, very important.
i once worked on a project (simple A/C upgrade to an elementray school in LA) that was scheduled for 180 days of construction. By the time I had left that firm, the project had been under construction for two years and continued for another year after that. The contractor was the most inept builder I have ever come across, but his presence was the result of low-bidder rules on public projects. This guy was so bad that, a) he managed to find and install asbestos-containing roof cement around a new roof hatch (remember - this was an elementary school), b) install steel pipe bollards around the transformer too low, so he GLUED on pipe extensions and painted the whole thing silver, c) installed a USED secondary transformer, d) and aggravate everyone such that the project appeared on the FRONT PAGE of the SUNDAY LA TIMES. I nearly dropped my cup of coffee on the floor that sunday morning. That was the most heart-palpitating and dizzying professional experience I've ever had - and hope to never have again.
Funny thing is there was nothing the owner, CM or architect could do but be patient - the consequences of removing the contractor and finding someone to take over were too astronomical.
Here's the kicker - this contractor actually put me down as a reference when applying for insurance with another insurer. The insurance rep called me one afternoon to inquire about this contractor and I actually had to ask her to confirm that he had put me down as a reference and this wasn't a prank call. When I had finished laughing, I politely described some of the fiascos I had encountered and cautioned her to run, not walk, from this guy. My revenge...
document, document, document
Zen and the Art of Construction Administration-Part 2
"the owner agrees with me, but doesn’t want the aggravation of getting it right. "
eddieP, sounds like the problem is as much with the client as with the contractor. You are only able to “inform†your client so much. As long as you have pointed out and documented your observations, you have done your job. It is frustrating, for sure, but that is one of the pitfalls of commissioned projects.
i think you should make they owner sign something saying that you are not liable for all the changes done without your authorization, document those changes, and document the lack of response by the contractor, if the owner wakes up, tell the owner to hold the payments; if the owner doesn't wake up then consider quiting, but you should document all changes
also it is very important that you became friend of the owner and gain his trust, make him realize that design is very important and that he is probably going to regret the things he change just for money...., but the contractors also have good ideas and it is important to listen and learn.
Do you respond the contractors question fast, or you take forever...if you take log the contractor is going to think that you dont care about the project
funga:
RFI's are responded to ceratinly within the time allowed and most often they are returned within two days. i have been complemented by the owner on my prompt answers, good decision making and they definitely know that i am passionate about design in general and the project sepecifically.
i guess i just have to start dealing with the fact that the last word is with the owner - eventhough he is the owners rep, he has authority over payment and at the end of the day the schedule seems to be what drives decisions, regardless of how well i try to sell him on how important good design is. it is just too bad that we have all the tools in place to support our intent as drawn, but most owners refuse to say 'no' to the contractors.
...and funga, he have sent out multiple emails and 'official' memos regarding defecient work and work not done according to the drawings. rest assured, we have done everything possible to try and protect the design intent...
I agree with freg_arch above..."I think the architect needs to be the 'heavy' in this situation.
If the owner doesn't follow the architect's lead, then Oh well, but the owner needs a strong lead to follow..."
Frustrating yes, but I'm hearing a lot of "not me" in eddieP's dialogue, don't let your emotions get in the way of business.
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