Speaking to a friend who work for a commercial development firm, he invited me to come work with him. Project managment and the 'business' side of getting buildings built appeals to me. I'm still getting the mail every day at the arch firm I work for, doing UPS runs, basically bitch work. That or drawing plans for 8-10 hours a day.
It definitely offers a lot more (50k vs my intern-wage 34k), but i feel like I'd be selling out.
Just curious what other's thoughts are, I'm sure quite a few of you have faced this before
It always cracks me up when these type of questions come up. It's very simple, go with the jobe that pays you 16k more. By the time you reach 50k in an arch firm you'll probably will be in the industry about ten years. Good luck.
I hate to break the news, but architecture IS development. Buildings and space are part of the real estate process. Some work is much better than other work, it's true. But the two are part of the same phenomenon.
I did basicly just what your going to do - no you will not sell out. If you fell comfortable you've mastered the production aspects of architecture, this is a great way to broaden your experiance. It may not be as creative but hey, whose actually doing much design as an architecture firm bitch? Your ideas and designs are yours and yours alone really. If this is what you have to do then do it - if you ever want to start your firm one day I gurauntee the business traing will be valuable.
Don't consider it a sell out, instead, as a new experience from a different perspective. Enjoy the $$ for awhile, and then use your new experience and pay as leverage to apply for a higher pay at a firm that's more design oriented in the future.
The stupid thing about architecture firms is that they tend to rarely build up their troops, and always give the higher salaries to new hires. It can be frustrating, especially for those that have shown loyalty and commitment over the years. But sometimes that's the game you have to play in your early years. I personally don't like job hopping every 1-2 years, but it was the only way to get to the salary I felt I deserved. It was funny how later at one firm I found out I was getting paid more than someone that had two years more experience than me and was licensed.
I made the move. Got a straight off 50% payrise. Bought my first house at a huge discount [basically a $100k bonus], now design and project manage $40m worth of projects. I am 29. You might temporarily lose the romance of the struggling young architect, but in 5 years time I will still be young, just not struggling.
It's a sellout, but that's not a bad thing. Just realize that it is what it is. Wanting/needing money is good, it's part of survival. Now, if you were making a million a year and still felt like you needed more, well, God bless you!
Seriously, most architecture is 'selling out' more than development jobs simply because they work under the premise that they are doing 'architecture', even though it's ugly crap (budget means nothing). I'd rather realize that I was doing something to make more $$ than make shit and pretend I was making designs that were 'good'. 'Member, 95% of the architects/architecture out there sucks and about 90% of the folks making it thinks it doesn't suck.
What’s wrong with trying to learn a different aspect of our business....Sure it wont be cutting edge designs but it will have it's challenges and learning experiences. Sounds like a good opportunity to broaden your experience ..good luck..(it’s better then pumping CAD all-day)
You can always do competitions or other creative outlets if the work becomes to mundane.
Just a thought: Does a develepor have more impact on the urban environement than a city planner or architect?
Maybe its good more architects become developers, the question is if the right kind of architects become developers.
Maybe we should promote it so these developments who are purely money driven can be directed into a better architectural solution.
sometimes that's hard though. for example, a client for the developer i'm looking to work for is doing a $35 million project, with full intentions of selling it off for a profit. To include grandiose or stunning architectural features would almost gaurantee an increase in construction cost, which would potentially lessen his profit.
I am inexperienced in the industry being just out of school, but I would think it isn't easy talking a guy into making $10 million instead of $50 million so the biulding he sells will be better looking or designed.
Without developers, most (if not all) architects and planners wouldn't have jobs, nor places to live. Real estate developers are the ones with access to sufficient capital to build.
get the money, build the connection, get the experience. 5 years later, you could open the most romantic firm in the world if you still have the dream.
well, if u think you can apply your talent better in dvelopment, go for it... artist (dan graham) becoming architect and architect becoming graphic designers...
"Property development isn't just about making a quick buck from slapping a bit of paint on an old building, it's about giving something back to the residents and the wider community says Tom Bloxham, founder and chairman of Urban Splash.
He should know. Urban Splash single-handedly kick-started the loft living boom that has transformed the once grim and grimy centres of the cities of north west England. From its inception in 1993, the company now employs over 200 hundred people and is currently developing property with a value of over £200 million. "
1. You will learn about about money, financing, contracts. You will begin to understand how buildings work, what kind of margins are involved, what it takes to get things built, and what conditions you need to get a project off the ground.
2. You will make contacts with future clients, subcontractors, planning authorities, fincancial backers. You will begin to know where these people are coming from and what they need and require to function.
3. You can get access to discounted property, so you can start to expand your wealth.
4. Generally, developers, or at least the one I know, are closet architect wannabe's. You may be in the fortunate position where you can use your knowledge and skills to easily gain and retain respect.
5. Developers pay inhouse architects more - but not out of the kindness of their hearts. Remember that an inhouse architect working for a developer will cost the developer 50-100% less than an outside contractor. So you can double your salary and they will still consider that a good deal.
6. You will realise that most of the work done by a developer is pretty straightforward. Generally it is the management of time, people and money. Most people inviolved in a project have vested financial interest, and an ongoing interest in remaining a contractor. Be upfront about timing issues, pay well and 66% of your problems are over. It is the financiing side of things that is the most mysterious and the hardest to learn.
7. Related to the above, you will also be a bit surprised at what impresses developers and agents. I've seen people cream their jeans at a nicely designed brochure or master plan - stuff that comes rather easily to us.
8. You are actually able to work on the macro scale, affecting the urban environment, This is a huge challenge, and it will hone your persuasion skills, and dare I say it your aggression. This is an aggressive industry, and you will need to learn how to back yourself and stand your ground where necessary, and be diplomatic where necessary.
9. You will move in circles where people have money, and this opens a lot of opportunities for creative people such as architects. Business ideas, creative ideas. and development ideas. For someone who has virtually no access to close or family contacts for finance, but has some ambition, this becomes important.
Disadvantages:
There are disadvantages - we are all aware of these. Alot of it relates to the ability of architects to influence the quality of the design and create an authentic building. There will be little chance to do this, but it does depend on the quality of the developer.
The biggest hurdle I had to overcome when I considered moving to the darkside, was that the perception that I was indeed moving to the darkside, and leaving some of the pleasant aspects of the architecture profession.
Also, there is a chance of a kind of Stockholm Syndrome developing where you become overly enamoured with the developer and some of the benefits that come with it.
If it is your desire to become a developer then this is less of an issue. However, if like me, you see this as a path to more independence and the chance to start an ethical, authentic development practice in the future, it is imperative to keep your focus on the end goal.
I realised that due to my personal circumstances, I needed to do something radical in order to be where I wanted to be. This move is only temporary, but essential.
Do any of you have any advice as to how to get into developing? What kind of jobs did you apply for? Anything different than being jsut the in-house architect. I'm in New York and any suggestions for companies to look into would be really helpful.
The Crap built by developers is certainly the norm. I however am fortunate enough to avoid all that bullshit. I would'nt have jumped ship if I'd thought that I would be contributing to ugliness and low quality buildings.
My role is more strategic - and most of our work is situated in an area with unique and stringent design guidelines which mean that you cannot get away with the generic solutions.
So if you consider an architect guiding and providing excellent design strategies and concepts to buildings that would otherwise turn out to be stereotypical disasters to be a sell-out, then you have a limited idea of what an architect does.
as i see it..... do whatever fullfills u...when i was in school i was a purist so i will call a sell-out to anyone working for a developer, now, after almost 10 years of architectural experience, studied in architecture meccas (NY, London, Barcelona) and worked with STARchitects, a bachelor and March degrees, now im thinking on getting another master degree.... this time at housing and development, or if i can find a development & housing bussiness school kind of thing (if anyone knows that kind of program, let me know).... i found challenging and also profitable, to become a very conscious developer who can also do cutting edge architecture while meeting the needs of the "real" people, or let's say the masses, cause we all know that if ur a purist and want to be an artistic architect ur stuff would only b paid by only few rich ppl which takes away all notion of social art to architecture...so i kind of find now becoming some kind of developer more interesting than a lone ranger architect, who thinks no one understands his art (remember, we r the ones who should understand ppl needs and likes, not them ours)....
by the way purists and theory lovers, mmmhhh do u know who John Jerde is?? well basically he's the architect which constructs/design more sq.meters in the world every year the last let say 10 years, and u know where Rem K tell his students at Harvard to ask for a job?? yeah u guess right, with John Jerde (couple of the ppl involved at the Project on the city "shopping" book work and worked at Jerde's), so if u see Rem is interested is because it is in fact, so freaking relevant for the true profession of an architect to become some kind of developer, or at least to learn their startegies... anyways...thats how i see it...call me insane...
more info on jerde in this (harvard) article: just click here
I switched to the dark side although at the time it was temporary because I was out of work for two months and needed income plus I felt that I could bring some architectural value to the company and perhaps help to mold what hey did and help solve the problem of horrible development rather than bitch and moan about it like people on here like to do...someone has to make a change and sure isnt' going to be the people that would rather say it's horrible to work for a developer...the upsides I think have already been pointed out, better pay and learning the buisness side of how to build were my main reasons...I'd like to design/build custom houses someday because I do not think I want to pursue my license and this is the only way that I can still accomplish my dreams of designing for myself and working for a builder teaches me the buisness side you wil NOT learn working for architects. The one thing I have learned in the few years I have been out of school is that money talks and if the sorry saps that work in an architecture firm don't see that the client is making all the design choices in most cases they need to wake up...the real key to design anything you want is to make your money in other aspects of construction and than build what you want with your own financial backing. If you worked for an architect and wanted to do this it would take you 30 years where as a builder can compensate you financially and teach you the buisness side that principals in architectural firms so valiantly try to hide from their minons of cad monkeys.
Looked at John Jerde's web site. Not a big fun of his prjoects, too big, no social context, feel like Las Vegas. Koolhas seems like to follow the trend, I wonder as an architect, should we be more concious of our social responsibility?
Sep 13, 05 1:27 pm ·
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byebye arch, hello development?
Speaking to a friend who work for a commercial development firm, he invited me to come work with him. Project managment and the 'business' side of getting buildings built appeals to me. I'm still getting the mail every day at the arch firm I work for, doing UPS runs, basically bitch work. That or drawing plans for 8-10 hours a day.
It definitely offers a lot more (50k vs my intern-wage 34k), but i feel like I'd be selling out.
Just curious what other's thoughts are, I'm sure quite a few of you have faced this before
It always cracks me up when these type of questions come up. It's very simple, go with the jobe that pays you 16k more. By the time you reach 50k in an arch firm you'll probably will be in the industry about ten years. Good luck.
I hate to break the news, but architecture IS development. Buildings and space are part of the real estate process. Some work is much better than other work, it's true. But the two are part of the same phenomenon.
I did basicly just what your going to do - no you will not sell out. If you fell comfortable you've mastered the production aspects of architecture, this is a great way to broaden your experiance. It may not be as creative but hey, whose actually doing much design as an architecture firm bitch? Your ideas and designs are yours and yours alone really. If this is what you have to do then do it - if you ever want to start your firm one day I gurauntee the business traing will be valuable.
Sell Outs!
Don't consider it a sell out, instead, as a new experience from a different perspective. Enjoy the $$ for awhile, and then use your new experience and pay as leverage to apply for a higher pay at a firm that's more design oriented in the future.
The stupid thing about architecture firms is that they tend to rarely build up their troops, and always give the higher salaries to new hires. It can be frustrating, especially for those that have shown loyalty and commitment over the years. But sometimes that's the game you have to play in your early years. I personally don't like job hopping every 1-2 years, but it was the only way to get to the salary I felt I deserved. It was funny how later at one firm I found out I was getting paid more than someone that had two years more experience than me and was licensed.
I made the move. Got a straight off 50% payrise. Bought my first house at a huge discount [basically a $100k bonus], now design and project manage $40m worth of projects. I am 29. You might temporarily lose the romance of the struggling young architect, but in 5 years time I will still be young, just not struggling.
It's a sellout, but that's not a bad thing. Just realize that it is what it is. Wanting/needing money is good, it's part of survival. Now, if you were making a million a year and still felt like you needed more, well, God bless you!
Seriously, most architecture is 'selling out' more than development jobs simply because they work under the premise that they are doing 'architecture', even though it's ugly crap (budget means nothing). I'd rather realize that I was doing something to make more $$ than make shit and pretend I was making designs that were 'good'. 'Member, 95% of the architects/architecture out there sucks and about 90% of the folks making it thinks it doesn't suck.
What’s wrong with trying to learn a different aspect of our business....Sure it wont be cutting edge designs but it will have it's challenges and learning experiences. Sounds like a good opportunity to broaden your experience ..good luck..(it’s better then pumping CAD all-day)
You can always do competitions or other creative outlets if the work becomes to mundane.
Just a thought: Does a develepor have more impact on the urban environement than a city planner or architect?
Maybe its good more architects become developers, the question is if the right kind of architects become developers.
Maybe we should promote it so these developments who are purely money driven can be directed into a better architectural solution.
sometimes that's hard though. for example, a client for the developer i'm looking to work for is doing a $35 million project, with full intentions of selling it off for a profit. To include grandiose or stunning architectural features would almost gaurantee an increase in construction cost, which would potentially lessen his profit.
I am inexperienced in the industry being just out of school, but I would think it isn't easy talking a guy into making $10 million instead of $50 million so the biulding he sells will be better looking or designed.
PB, to answer your question: YES.
Without developers, most (if not all) architects and planners wouldn't have jobs, nor places to live. Real estate developers are the ones with access to sufficient capital to build.
get the money, build the connection, get the experience. 5 years later, you could open the most romantic firm in the world if you still have the dream.
well, if u think you can apply your talent better in dvelopment, go for it... artist (dan graham) becoming architect and architect becoming graphic designers...
good example is urban splash http://www.urbansplash.co.uk
"Property development isn't just about making a quick buck from slapping a bit of paint on an old building, it's about giving something back to the residents and the wider community says Tom Bloxham, founder and chairman of Urban Splash.
He should know. Urban Splash single-handedly kick-started the loft living boom that has transformed the once grim and grimy centres of the cities of north west England. From its inception in 1993, the company now employs over 200 hundred people and is currently developing property with a value of over £200 million. "
more here >> http://www.startups.co.uk/YcmD_utoyivadQ.html
The urbansplash article is fantastic. I wonder if there is anyone like that in Chicago?
Benefits of working for a developer:
1. You will learn about about money, financing, contracts. You will begin to understand how buildings work, what kind of margins are involved, what it takes to get things built, and what conditions you need to get a project off the ground.
2. You will make contacts with future clients, subcontractors, planning authorities, fincancial backers. You will begin to know where these people are coming from and what they need and require to function.
3. You can get access to discounted property, so you can start to expand your wealth.
4. Generally, developers, or at least the one I know, are closet architect wannabe's. You may be in the fortunate position where you can use your knowledge and skills to easily gain and retain respect.
5. Developers pay inhouse architects more - but not out of the kindness of their hearts. Remember that an inhouse architect working for a developer will cost the developer 50-100% less than an outside contractor. So you can double your salary and they will still consider that a good deal.
6. You will realise that most of the work done by a developer is pretty straightforward. Generally it is the management of time, people and money. Most people inviolved in a project have vested financial interest, and an ongoing interest in remaining a contractor. Be upfront about timing issues, pay well and 66% of your problems are over. It is the financiing side of things that is the most mysterious and the hardest to learn.
7. Related to the above, you will also be a bit surprised at what impresses developers and agents. I've seen people cream their jeans at a nicely designed brochure or master plan - stuff that comes rather easily to us.
8. You are actually able to work on the macro scale, affecting the urban environment, This is a huge challenge, and it will hone your persuasion skills, and dare I say it your aggression. This is an aggressive industry, and you will need to learn how to back yourself and stand your ground where necessary, and be diplomatic where necessary.
9. You will move in circles where people have money, and this opens a lot of opportunities for creative people such as architects. Business ideas, creative ideas. and development ideas. For someone who has virtually no access to close or family contacts for finance, but has some ambition, this becomes important.
Disadvantages:
There are disadvantages - we are all aware of these. Alot of it relates to the ability of architects to influence the quality of the design and create an authentic building. There will be little chance to do this, but it does depend on the quality of the developer.
The biggest hurdle I had to overcome when I considered moving to the darkside, was that the perception that I was indeed moving to the darkside, and leaving some of the pleasant aspects of the architecture profession.
Also, there is a chance of a kind of Stockholm Syndrome developing where you become overly enamoured with the developer and some of the benefits that come with it.
If it is your desire to become a developer then this is less of an issue. However, if like me, you see this as a path to more independence and the chance to start an ethical, authentic development practice in the future, it is imperative to keep your focus on the end goal.
I realised that due to my personal circumstances, I needed to do something radical in order to be where I wanted to be. This move is only temporary, but essential.
5. Developers pay ... 100-300% less .... for example, An architect pays you $20/h, but charges you out at $60-80/h
diabase-
The linear path isn't always the best route to where you'd like to be.
An excellent post. Thank you.
SELL OUTS!!....you will build crap. You guys missed the whole point of being an architect.
Do any of you have any advice as to how to get into developing? What kind of jobs did you apply for? Anything different than being jsut the in-house architect. I'm in New York and any suggestions for companies to look into would be really helpful.
Thriller,
The Crap built by developers is certainly the norm. I however am fortunate enough to avoid all that bullshit. I would'nt have jumped ship if I'd thought that I would be contributing to ugliness and low quality buildings.
My role is more strategic - and most of our work is situated in an area with unique and stringent design guidelines which mean that you cannot get away with the generic solutions.
So if you consider an architect guiding and providing excellent design strategies and concepts to buildings that would otherwise turn out to be stereotypical disasters to be a sell-out, then you have a limited idea of what an architect does.
as i see it..... do whatever fullfills u...when i was in school i was a purist so i will call a sell-out to anyone working for a developer, now, after almost 10 years of architectural experience, studied in architecture meccas (NY, London, Barcelona) and worked with STARchitects, a bachelor and March degrees, now im thinking on getting another master degree.... this time at housing and development, or if i can find a development & housing bussiness school kind of thing (if anyone knows that kind of program, let me know).... i found challenging and also profitable, to become a very conscious developer who can also do cutting edge architecture while meeting the needs of the "real" people, or let's say the masses, cause we all know that if ur a purist and want to be an artistic architect ur stuff would only b paid by only few rich ppl which takes away all notion of social art to architecture...so i kind of find now becoming some kind of developer more interesting than a lone ranger architect, who thinks no one understands his art (remember, we r the ones who should understand ppl needs and likes, not them ours)....
by the way purists and theory lovers, mmmhhh do u know who John Jerde is?? well basically he's the architect which constructs/design more sq.meters in the world every year the last let say 10 years, and u know where Rem K tell his students at Harvard to ask for a job?? yeah u guess right, with John Jerde (couple of the ppl involved at the Project on the city "shopping" book work and worked at Jerde's), so if u see Rem is interested is because it is in fact, so freaking relevant for the true profession of an architect to become some kind of developer, or at least to learn their startegies... anyways...thats how i see it...call me insane...
more info on jerde in this (harvard) article: just click here
or in his website: www.jerde.com
Mariano see Mc-gill site. they have a m.arch II on housing
kool, thanx, i will check it out...
i found this one...more what i look for.... no architecture schools, more into the bussiness school:
Master of Real Estate Development
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
I switched to the dark side although at the time it was temporary because I was out of work for two months and needed income plus I felt that I could bring some architectural value to the company and perhaps help to mold what hey did and help solve the problem of horrible development rather than bitch and moan about it like people on here like to do...someone has to make a change and sure isnt' going to be the people that would rather say it's horrible to work for a developer...the upsides I think have already been pointed out, better pay and learning the buisness side of how to build were my main reasons...I'd like to design/build custom houses someday because I do not think I want to pursue my license and this is the only way that I can still accomplish my dreams of designing for myself and working for a builder teaches me the buisness side you wil NOT learn working for architects. The one thing I have learned in the few years I have been out of school is that money talks and if the sorry saps that work in an architecture firm don't see that the client is making all the design choices in most cases they need to wake up...the real key to design anything you want is to make your money in other aspects of construction and than build what you want with your own financial backing. If you worked for an architect and wanted to do this it would take you 30 years where as a builder can compensate you financially and teach you the buisness side that principals in architectural firms so valiantly try to hide from their minons of cad monkeys.
impalajunkie, can you update us? Did you interview/make the switch?
had an interview yes, had a 2nd interview on site in a building they had under construction, still waiting to hear back.
Looked at John Jerde's web site. Not a big fun of his prjoects, too big, no social context, feel like Las Vegas. Koolhas seems like to follow the trend, I wonder as an architect, should we be more concious of our social responsibility?
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