Another firm that I have interviewed with few weeks ago has offer me an entry level position. It's within the proximity of San Francisco as well. They are offering me $13 per hr. I called back the manager and claimed that amount was low. Unfortunately he cant make a decision and the principal who handle it was not in the office. Few hours later, the manager called back and said he has talked to the principal and she will give me a call tomorrow morning to discuss the matter. He said that please wait for them to call me back and dont accept any other offer just yet. Is this a good hint that I can ask for more? Any advice would be helpful!!
I have some ideas the going rate now in SF after our discussion in this forum previously. I also met another person from another forum who has just grad from UCB with a BA is offered $18/hr without insurance in a very small firm in emeryville/ berkeley. What would be a good amount to ask for?
Thanks in advance, you guys are always so helpful...
I've read all your posts so far, and I realize that you are dropping your previous job, I believe that was with the employer who was an ass, and my question to you would be...what's the difference between the job offers you are fielding? It seems a bit hasty to ask how much you are to be paid, not knowing what your portfolio or capabilities are despite it being an entry level position. Don't let the greed monster take over. We don't know what type of projects this firm is bringing in or the amount of money they can afford to pay you. Use common sense, make sure you are going into a great working environment, and be confident without swinging your weight around so much. If they need you as it seems, they'll pay you well.
Effectively you've already made them aware that you're looking for a higher offer. I suspect they'll come back with an offer of another dollar or two an hour. It does sound as though they're interested in you. However, ass an entry-level applicant you don't really have all that much negotiating power, because it is pretty easy to find other applicants for that type of position - so I agree that yoku should avoid pushing too far.
Employers that I know in that region generally avoid passing the $18/hour mark for entry-level people. Somewhere in the $15 to $18/hour range would be reasonable at this point.
I'm curious though about what's going on with your thinking here: you agonized over whether to take a $14/hour job, then took it, then got upset because of the overtime and other terms that seemed to come as a surprise to you, that would usually be worked out during the interviews and before accepting a job. Now you want to ditch the $14 job for what sounds like a pretty similar job with a likely similar salary.
Have you been careful this time to ask all about overtime, the firm's schedule, how many hours will usually be required, what you'll be working on, how soon you'll be tossed onto a project, how close/short typical deadlines are in the firm, etc?
Yes....you guys are interesting.
Most of the projects the firm do is civil/ community based like library, community centers, etc. The reason I decide to leave the "14dollar job" is because there is no parking available, crappy office environment (he sub-lease half the office to a tech company that make the place rather hot in the afternoon), and dumping too much on us (the new interns) because the experienced person is leaving.
"no parking available, crappy office environment (he sub-lease half the office to a tech company that make the place rather hot in the afternoon), and dumping too much on us (the new interns) because the experienced person is leaving."
this is no reason to move from one $14/hr job to another. figure out what you want in a job and pursue it.
I must concur. If I left every job because the parking situation wasn't ideal and I had a lot of work to keep me occupied, I'd never keep a job.
Make sure the new job is significantly better before making the move. It may be some intangible thing, atmosphere, the personalities involved, something that's hard to describe to us, but don't move because of parking.
i personally judge firms on how many subway
stops it is from my apartment..and how many
blocks it is from the nearest subway stop...i've
often left a job for one block of convenience.
...dumping too much on us (the new interns) because the experienced person is leaving
That's called baptism by fire, archimax, and though stressful it can be a fantastic way to learn quickly. Do you want to be stuck doing exclusively bathroom elevations for the next 3 years?
i'm sure this is different for everybody, but from my personal experience, i feel that i need to be in a job for at least 3-4 months before i really have a strong sense of the place. also, if you are basically making a lateral move (trading one job for another similar job), then i don't think you are really gaining anything by moving. it's tempting to move because the "grass always looks greener" but i am also reminded of one of the lessons i learned when i was a financial advisor, "it's not about timing the market, it's time in the market that matters"
in other words, show some patience. you might gain a lot more by putting your energy into your present job (even if it includes shitty hours and lots of work) than by wasting your time and energy chasing after what you think is a better job. otherwise, you run the risk of being one of those people who has worked everywhere and not really done anything. just my 2 cents.
You're leaving the 14$/hr job, which everyone on this board told you was way too low, to go to a 13$/hr job? And you're leaving because there is too much responsibility? Im beginning to think you're getting what you deserve.
After - "Should I take this job?", "My 14/hr job!", "No respect for interviewer", "Quitting new job?" and "Another offer from another firm" - What's next?
You seem to type of person who can't make up his own mind. Where's your backbone?
I think archimax is f__king with everyone on this sight. Either that, or you're from another country, a country that, how shall I put this nicely, a country that does not have workers rights and all that nonsense. I suggest you pack up and go to india and join a drafting company. At least that way you will know what to expect from your employer.
Some people here just think they are so smart but indeed they couldnt give any advice and have to complaint. If you dont like to read my post, simply dont read or response to it.
Reharding the parking problem, I dont know why people are having problem with it. If I have to paid for parking at the job, of course, it's going to be factored in should I stay at it or not. $8 per day x 20 days per month = $160/ month. And my job does required me to drive because of site visit from time to time.
you are correct. parking can be an issue. but the way you initially presented made you sound a bit whiny. remember, not everybody on this site is in sf, ny, boston, etc. you would have been better off presenting it as part of the financial issue that you are facing at your modest income levels.
i hate to keep referring to it (and i'm sure some people are tired of my referrences to it) but i am again reminded of my own experience as a young graduate working in boston. i dealt with parking issue by leaving my car in michigan after graduation and using public transportation (one of the things that initially attracted me to boston). moreover with my job (because i ran a lot of errands around town as the youngest person in the office) they gave me a monthly pass for the boston subway and bus system. this retailed for about $60/month in those days. that doesn't sound like much, but with my $9/hour income it was a very nice perk to have all of my transportation costs covered by the office since i could use the pass after hours too.
i have said this before, but i will continue to harp on it: getting what you want will require sacrifice. if you want to be an architect, you will have to make some hard choices. parking can be an issue. ask yourself why you have/need a car. if it is only for vanity's sake, it may be to your benefit to live closer to a bus line (and look for offices that are also strategically located). sacrifice. how bad do you want to be an architect? many others, including a number of posters on this site who freely admit it have wilted. if you don't come from a lot of money, then this is simply a fact of life in a competitive world. so continue to think about what you want and what you are willing to give up to get. make your choices strategically and someday you will be where you want to be.
lastly, continue to post away to your hearts content. as you said, those who aren't interested should just look elsewhere. personally, i would be surprised if there weren't a number of silent onlookers out there who have similare concerns to yours but are too timid to ask.
The cost of parking is a legitimate concern.
However, there are a couple things I don't understand in your thinking here.
1. Did you not know before you took the job that parking would be an expense? If not, do add that to your list of questions for future interviews.
2. If you're considering switching to a job that pays $1 less per hour then you will be making pretty much exactly $160 less per month ($1 x 40 hours per week x 4 weeks per month = $160) so this would not be a step up.
I agree with others that most starting interns would rather have the problem of having a lot of work given to them - and possibly work that is slightly beyond their current knowledge/comfort zone - than have the more common problem of a load of easier, possibly uninteresting and/or repetetive tasks. A job that gives you a lot of responsibility right away is often one in which you'll get the most varied experience quickly.
It is varied and in-depth experience and knowledge that will allow you to get a higher paying job later.
I interview people often and one thing that concerns me in your posts is that you're simultaneously conveying the belief that you're worth a higher salary than what's being offered, but that you don't want a job that requires a heavy workload, tight deadlines, overtime, etc.
In general people people who I strongly want to hire - and who I might consider offering a little bit more in order to get them on board - are those who seem to be very organized, hard working, "go-getters" who will do what it takes to get the job done and who will jump in and learn whatever is needed, even if the project is a little over their head.
Bloopox: The reason I think this will be a worth-it switch is because this firm is a bigger and is able to be more supportive in training interns. Also, while the paid is not a lot higher (I will be able to get 15/hr), their benefit package is a lot more attractive. On top of the usual employment benefits like insurance, paid sick leave and holidays, they also offer a more flexible work schedule, paid 1.5 times for over-time, support idp including paying staff any idp costs, allowance for ARE exams, and bonuses for acquiring license, etc.
I do agree with you that having a heavy workload do sometimes let interns learn faster. However, most importantly, different people do learn in a different pace and method. It is surprise to me that a person in your position who claims to have an important role in an office do not have the objectivity to recognize this. Just based on exchanges in this forum, how dare you personally attacking me by indicating that I am lazy and unorganize. In the end, this only shown how little minded you are in reality and probably how one-dimensional you are in the architecture field.
archimax.
so bloopox gives you good advice and tells you what
he thinks to be true of you and you still insult him.
where are you from originally? because i don't think
you're understanding what he wrote...he's far from
attacking you...
after reading most of your posts i personally don't think
you're accepting, or deserving of anyone's advice since
all you seem to do is reject it and insult people who
don't agree with you.
larslarson: Where are you from originally? My race or nationality has nothing to do with whether I understand what he said or not. Look like you dont understand what I have wrote either. Cause if you truly understand you will just back off. And you know what, you are a racist!
i won't insult you ...calling me a rascist just doesn't make sense.
i'm only asking where you from because i don't believe you
understand english all that well. so yes where you're from
is relevant. it also could explain some of our attitudes and
proclivities...as well as some of your preconceptions regarding
working, in general, and the profession, in particular.
but you just prove everyone's point by being infantile and throwing
out petty little insults..good luck with either of your jobs.
archimax: there was no attack. I and others had asked multiple times about what the advantages were of the new job, and/or what the problems were with the current one. For the most part you cited only issues like parking and heat. This time you've given more information, so I agree that the new job sounds like it may provide a more supportive environment for someone just starting out.
I did not call you lazy or unorganized.
What I was trying to convey is that - based on what you've written here and in other threads - your interviewing techniques may be giving the impression to potential employers that you are agressively pushing for a higher salary but that you may not be giving them the impression that you have special qualities and skills that make you worth a higher salary.
Your interviews and negotiations are a time to sell your strong qualities to the potential employers and to tell them how you are going to help them. They have to be convinced that you're going to be efficient and profitable and bring skills and a good attitude on board.
I thought from your posts that you were asking for advice as to how to interview successfully, negotiate successfully, leave you previous job in a professional way, etc. I do have some experience in these areas and was trying to provide you with helpful advice.
Don't worry, I won't post to you again.
bloodclot: we're not interviewing at present but we have posted a few positions on Archinect in the past and I'm sure we will again.
dude, archimax, chill out a little. Bloopox was being totally serious, and said what he did in a respectful way, it just wasn't what you wanted to hear. We're not always going to tell you what you want to hear. Like now...
The reason people are starting to turn on your threads is because we gave you our honest, wish-the-best-for-you advice in your first threads, and you pretty much ignored it. Then you come back wanting more of our advice now that you've gotten yourself into a bad situation that we advised you against. And again, you seem to have your mind made up and will do what you will no matter what we say. So why ask the advice? It's a touch frustrating.
ol'DirtyArchitect,
i agree archimax is acting like an immature teenager, but some words for you:
DONT BE RACIST, ASSHOLE.
another thing, if you talk about worker's rights in other countries, please try and go visit one of these outsourcing companies if you ever go to the eastern hemisphere - the labor relations and standards are in some cases much advanced than those here in american sweatfarms. dont try to vent your anger on irrelevant issues like these, because it just makes all of us working in the US and other countries look silly.
I feel that there may be a tone in my earlier posting, which could be misinterpreted. My intention was to sarcastically imply that Archimax needs to stand up for himself. Architecture interns are not required to work in sweatshops after graduation. If he believes he is being mistreated or under appreciated than he needs to stand up for himself. I apologize for any confusion.
Aug 20, 05 2:32 am ·
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Another offer from another firm
Another firm that I have interviewed with few weeks ago has offer me an entry level position. It's within the proximity of San Francisco as well. They are offering me $13 per hr. I called back the manager and claimed that amount was low. Unfortunately he cant make a decision and the principal who handle it was not in the office. Few hours later, the manager called back and said he has talked to the principal and she will give me a call tomorrow morning to discuss the matter. He said that please wait for them to call me back and dont accept any other offer just yet. Is this a good hint that I can ask for more? Any advice would be helpful!!
I have some ideas the going rate now in SF after our discussion in this forum previously. I also met another person from another forum who has just grad from UCB with a BA is offered $18/hr without insurance in a very small firm in emeryville/ berkeley. What would be a good amount to ask for?
Thanks in advance, you guys are always so helpful...
Is it a small firm? How many people? Projects?
I've read all your posts so far, and I realize that you are dropping your previous job, I believe that was with the employer who was an ass, and my question to you would be...what's the difference between the job offers you are fielding? It seems a bit hasty to ask how much you are to be paid, not knowing what your portfolio or capabilities are despite it being an entry level position. Don't let the greed monster take over. We don't know what type of projects this firm is bringing in or the amount of money they can afford to pay you. Use common sense, make sure you are going into a great working environment, and be confident without swinging your weight around so much. If they need you as it seems, they'll pay you well.
Effectively you've already made them aware that you're looking for a higher offer. I suspect they'll come back with an offer of another dollar or two an hour. It does sound as though they're interested in you. However, ass an entry-level applicant you don't really have all that much negotiating power, because it is pretty easy to find other applicants for that type of position - so I agree that yoku should avoid pushing too far.
Employers that I know in that region generally avoid passing the $18/hour mark for entry-level people. Somewhere in the $15 to $18/hour range would be reasonable at this point.
I'm curious though about what's going on with your thinking here: you agonized over whether to take a $14/hour job, then took it, then got upset because of the overtime and other terms that seemed to come as a surprise to you, that would usually be worked out during the interviews and before accepting a job. Now you want to ditch the $14 job for what sounds like a pretty similar job with a likely similar salary.
Have you been careful this time to ask all about overtime, the firm's schedule, how many hours will usually be required, what you'll be working on, how soon you'll be tossed onto a project, how close/short typical deadlines are in the firm, etc?
Don't rush into anything.
I think that you are addicted to our opinions :o)
Yes....you guys are interesting.
Most of the projects the firm do is civil/ community based like library, community centers, etc. The reason I decide to leave the "14dollar job" is because there is no parking available, crappy office environment (he sub-lease half the office to a tech company that make the place rather hot in the afternoon), and dumping too much on us (the new interns) because the experienced person is leaving.
"no parking available, crappy office environment (he sub-lease half the office to a tech company that make the place rather hot in the afternoon), and dumping too much on us (the new interns) because the experienced person is leaving."
this is no reason to move from one $14/hr job to another. figure out what you want in a job and pursue it.
welcome to the real world, my friend. no one is going to baby you in an architecture firm.
Wait, I should be getting parking? That's it, I quit, too.
I must concur. If I left every job because the parking situation wasn't ideal and I had a lot of work to keep me occupied, I'd never keep a job.
Make sure the new job is significantly better before making the move. It may be some intangible thing, atmosphere, the personalities involved, something that's hard to describe to us, but don't move because of parking.
i personally judge firms on how many subway
stops it is from my apartment..and how many
blocks it is from the nearest subway stop...i've
often left a job for one block of convenience.
That's called baptism by fire, archimax, and though stressful it can be a fantastic way to learn quickly. Do you want to be stuck doing exclusively bathroom elevations for the next 3 years?
indeed. seize the moment.
perhaps archimax should focus more on the imports and less on the exports.
i'm sure this is different for everybody, but from my personal experience, i feel that i need to be in a job for at least 3-4 months before i really have a strong sense of the place. also, if you are basically making a lateral move (trading one job for another similar job), then i don't think you are really gaining anything by moving. it's tempting to move because the "grass always looks greener" but i am also reminded of one of the lessons i learned when i was a financial advisor, "it's not about timing the market, it's time in the market that matters"
in other words, show some patience. you might gain a lot more by putting your energy into your present job (even if it includes shitty hours and lots of work) than by wasting your time and energy chasing after what you think is a better job. otherwise, you run the risk of being one of those people who has worked everywhere and not really done anything. just my 2 cents.
Let me get this straight....
You're leaving the 14$/hr job, which everyone on this board told you was way too low, to go to a 13$/hr job? And you're leaving because there is too much responsibility? Im beginning to think you're getting what you deserve.
I think you're crazy...
After - "Should I take this job?", "My 14/hr job!", "No respect for interviewer", "Quitting new job?" and "Another offer from another firm" - What's next?
You seem to type of person who can't make up his own mind. Where's your backbone?
I guess at $14/hr you can't afford a psychic hotline.
I think archimax is f__king with everyone on this sight. Either that, or you're from another country, a country that, how shall I put this nicely, a country that does not have workers rights and all that nonsense. I suggest you pack up and go to india and join a drafting company. At least that way you will know what to expect from your employer.
welcome to architecture.
enough already. close this thread down.
seriously... rufffff
I think ODA gets the prize for coming out and saying what we were all wondering...
Yeah I have been thinking someone was pranking us.
Thanks rationalist, I appreciate that, "All ya'll archinectors need to recognize"
I knew I was not alone in my thinking. Somebody needed to say it.
Or maybe he can pay someone $15/hr to relocate to SF and lives his life for him.
hey, i said hey! baby i got yo money don't yo worry!!!
Some people here just think they are so smart but indeed they couldnt give any advice and have to complaint. If you dont like to read my post, simply dont read or response to it.
Reharding the parking problem, I dont know why people are having problem with it. If I have to paid for parking at the job, of course, it's going to be factored in should I stay at it or not. $8 per day x 20 days per month = $160/ month. And my job does required me to drive because of site visit from time to time.
archimax,
you are correct. parking can be an issue. but the way you initially presented made you sound a bit whiny. remember, not everybody on this site is in sf, ny, boston, etc. you would have been better off presenting it as part of the financial issue that you are facing at your modest income levels.
i hate to keep referring to it (and i'm sure some people are tired of my referrences to it) but i am again reminded of my own experience as a young graduate working in boston. i dealt with parking issue by leaving my car in michigan after graduation and using public transportation (one of the things that initially attracted me to boston). moreover with my job (because i ran a lot of errands around town as the youngest person in the office) they gave me a monthly pass for the boston subway and bus system. this retailed for about $60/month in those days. that doesn't sound like much, but with my $9/hour income it was a very nice perk to have all of my transportation costs covered by the office since i could use the pass after hours too.
i have said this before, but i will continue to harp on it: getting what you want will require sacrifice. if you want to be an architect, you will have to make some hard choices. parking can be an issue. ask yourself why you have/need a car. if it is only for vanity's sake, it may be to your benefit to live closer to a bus line (and look for offices that are also strategically located). sacrifice. how bad do you want to be an architect? many others, including a number of posters on this site who freely admit it have wilted. if you don't come from a lot of money, then this is simply a fact of life in a competitive world. so continue to think about what you want and what you are willing to give up to get. make your choices strategically and someday you will be where you want to be.
lastly, continue to post away to your hearts content. as you said, those who aren't interested should just look elsewhere. personally, i would be surprised if there weren't a number of silent onlookers out there who have similare concerns to yours but are too timid to ask.
The cost of parking is a legitimate concern.
However, there are a couple things I don't understand in your thinking here.
1. Did you not know before you took the job that parking would be an expense? If not, do add that to your list of questions for future interviews.
2. If you're considering switching to a job that pays $1 less per hour then you will be making pretty much exactly $160 less per month ($1 x 40 hours per week x 4 weeks per month = $160) so this would not be a step up.
I agree with others that most starting interns would rather have the problem of having a lot of work given to them - and possibly work that is slightly beyond their current knowledge/comfort zone - than have the more common problem of a load of easier, possibly uninteresting and/or repetetive tasks. A job that gives you a lot of responsibility right away is often one in which you'll get the most varied experience quickly.
It is varied and in-depth experience and knowledge that will allow you to get a higher paying job later.
I interview people often and one thing that concerns me in your posts is that you're simultaneously conveying the belief that you're worth a higher salary than what's being offered, but that you don't want a job that requires a heavy workload, tight deadlines, overtime, etc.
In general people people who I strongly want to hire - and who I might consider offering a little bit more in order to get them on board - are those who seem to be very organized, hard working, "go-getters" who will do what it takes to get the job done and who will jump in and learn whatever is needed, even if the project is a little over their head.
Bloopox: The reason I think this will be a worth-it switch is because this firm is a bigger and is able to be more supportive in training interns. Also, while the paid is not a lot higher (I will be able to get 15/hr), their benefit package is a lot more attractive. On top of the usual employment benefits like insurance, paid sick leave and holidays, they also offer a more flexible work schedule, paid 1.5 times for over-time, support idp including paying staff any idp costs, allowance for ARE exams, and bonuses for acquiring license, etc.
I do agree with you that having a heavy workload do sometimes let interns learn faster. However, most importantly, different people do learn in a different pace and method. It is surprise to me that a person in your position who claims to have an important role in an office do not have the objectivity to recognize this. Just based on exchanges in this forum, how dare you personally attacking me by indicating that I am lazy and unorganize. In the end, this only shown how little minded you are in reality and probably how one-dimensional you are in the architecture field.
ah this thread is very, very redeeming.... and makes me want to projectile vomit down max's throat...
oh, and bloopox--got any openings i can interview for?
archimax.
so bloopox gives you good advice and tells you what
he thinks to be true of you and you still insult him.
where are you from originally? because i don't think
you're understanding what he wrote...he's far from
attacking you...
after reading most of your posts i personally don't think
you're accepting, or deserving of anyone's advice since
all you seem to do is reject it and insult people who
don't agree with you.
Puddles: Thank you very much for your kind words and encouragement.
larslarson: Where are you from originally? My race or nationality has nothing to do with whether I understand what he said or not. Look like you dont understand what I have wrote either. Cause if you truly understand you will just back off. And you know what, you are a racist!
bloodclot ArCattack: Sorry, you can kkep your own vomit for your secret fetish collection at home, little boy!!
i won't insult you ...calling me a rascist just doesn't make sense.
i'm only asking where you from because i don't believe you
understand english all that well. so yes where you're from
is relevant. it also could explain some of our attitudes and
proclivities...as well as some of your preconceptions regarding
working, in general, and the profession, in particular.
but you just prove everyone's point by being infantile and throwing
out petty little insults..good luck with either of your jobs.
archimax: there was no attack. I and others had asked multiple times about what the advantages were of the new job, and/or what the problems were with the current one. For the most part you cited only issues like parking and heat. This time you've given more information, so I agree that the new job sounds like it may provide a more supportive environment for someone just starting out.
I did not call you lazy or unorganized.
What I was trying to convey is that - based on what you've written here and in other threads - your interviewing techniques may be giving the impression to potential employers that you are agressively pushing for a higher salary but that you may not be giving them the impression that you have special qualities and skills that make you worth a higher salary.
Your interviews and negotiations are a time to sell your strong qualities to the potential employers and to tell them how you are going to help them. They have to be convinced that you're going to be efficient and profitable and bring skills and a good attitude on board.
I thought from your posts that you were asking for advice as to how to interview successfully, negotiate successfully, leave you previous job in a professional way, etc. I do have some experience in these areas and was trying to provide you with helpful advice.
Don't worry, I won't post to you again.
bloodclot: we're not interviewing at present but we have posted a few positions on Archinect in the past and I'm sure we will again.
dude, archimax, chill out a little. Bloopox was being totally serious, and said what he did in a respectful way, it just wasn't what you wanted to hear. We're not always going to tell you what you want to hear. Like now...
The reason people are starting to turn on your threads is because we gave you our honest, wish-the-best-for-you advice in your first threads, and you pretty much ignored it. Then you come back wanting more of our advice now that you've gotten yourself into a bad situation that we advised you against. And again, you seem to have your mind made up and will do what you will no matter what we say. So why ask the advice? It's a touch frustrating.
ha ha... little boy... thats a good one :D
yeah, maybe you need to chill out a little...
nitpicking over a $15/hr job is pointless...you're freshblood so accept that and move on
ol'DirtyArchitect,
i agree archimax is acting like an immature teenager, but some words for you:
DONT BE RACIST, ASSHOLE.
another thing, if you talk about worker's rights in other countries, please try and go visit one of these outsourcing companies if you ever go to the eastern hemisphere - the labor relations and standards are in some cases much advanced than those here in american sweatfarms. dont try to vent your anger on irrelevant issues like these, because it just makes all of us working in the US and other countries look silly.
As the Berenstain Bears say...
"Let this be a lesson to you, this is what you should not do"
I feel that there may be a tone in my earlier posting, which could be misinterpreted. My intention was to sarcastically imply that Archimax needs to stand up for himself. Architecture interns are not required to work in sweatshops after graduation. If he believes he is being mistreated or under appreciated than he needs to stand up for himself. I apologize for any confusion.
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