As you guy may know about my 14/hr job. I actually accepted the job and was paid 14.5/hr to start. I actually ask for at least 15/hr but I think he tries to avoid that topic. We didnt even discussion health and other benefit today. Then I was dumped with a project already when I am not even familiar with the firm system. In the afternoon, I went out to do measurement in a abandon house. I was also told I have to finish a simple demolition plan, proposed plan, and elevation by end of tomorrow. On top of that I have to work overtime without paid (I am assuming) already. I am serious having doubt about this. Should I stay at the job or I just complaint too much?
i think you work for my old boss. do it for 6 months and go for something better. read a lot and enter a competition.
what not to do: buy grocercies with a credit card
also, you need to realize that YOU WILL NEVER GET BENEFITS from him.
by the way, i measured an "abandoned" house in silverlake only to find a helpful & homeless drug addict to hold the tape.
Blood-boy, we all complain too much. That's why I come here, at least.
Archimax. What'd I tell you abt taking a $14/hr +/- job? Since you took the job, you've gotta give it time. If you're concerned abt. overtime, you need to talk directly w/ your boss. If he/she is evasive, put his/her feet to the fire & get an answer.
What's the worst that's gonna happen for puching your boss for an answer: You get fired. If this happens, then you learned a lot about that firm's character.
You're gonna find out that one of the worst things you can do in this field is to allow grey areas, lack of direction, or evasiveness to win the day. Since you're the jr guy (I assume), you know what always flows downhill. CLARiITY, son, CLARITY.
Are you a taxable employee or are you contract? Some firms will hire you as contract and let you believe that you are an employee. If you are contract, start looking for a new job now. Otherwise, give it a shot. You might learn a lot.
Oh god puddles that's about as depressing as those meth addict's faces....
archimax go read that "Romance and Professionalism" thread to give you some optimism.
Realistically, Mystery's advice is right on - the grey areas will kill you, and if your emplyer thinks you're a pushover than you're sure as hell never going to advance. You could give it 6 months and learn what you can, but keep looking.
ask directly about overtime. If he says you're not getting paid for it, tell him his deadlines are unrealistic. If he probes further into this, tell him you're unable to work without pay, because it looks like you'll need a second job to pay the rent, because 14x40x4= 2240, minus around 25% for taxes, is around 1600, and that's not doing it to live on.
$14.00 per hour in San Fran??? Do you have a degree? Any experience? If you a Masters then you should be asking for $50,000 per year around $25.00 per hour.
I would just do what I can and if they don't like it then let them fire me. Maybe by then you can collect unemployment! Which won't be much less then you get payed now!
Oh, don't work overtime with out pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Architecture falls under Personal Services Industries I think. The rules governing your pay also should be posted somewhere in your office (I think this is law).
It is unfair for them to ask you to work overtime immediately after you start with no explanation of whether you'll be paid or not, no discussion of benefits, etc. It also sounds as though there is very poor communication in the office. To give them a little leeway, they may not realize you feel as though this has been dumped on you and that the deadline is unrealistic. You can discuss it with them now or do your best and see where you are in a few days (you may be surprised by how much you are able to accomplish, or may feel extremely frustrated and overwhelmed).
If you feel you need to discuss it with the boss, be straightforward - explain that you are concerned the deadline is unrealistic (given that you'll be working 8-9 hour days), and are they expecting you to work overtime? and then ask if you'll be paid for it. If not, you need to decide whether you want to agree to it or not - they are probably required to pay you for it legally, but that doesn't mean they will. If you don't want to work the extra hours (and some people really are ok with it), then you'll need to tell them you will not be working overtime without being paid on a regular basis, and see what happens.
They may decide to lay you off (this happened to me when working for a relatively well known architect, though whether or not the laying off had to do with my refusal to work week-ends or just a downturn in the economy was unclear, and then they did call me a week later and offer to pay me hourly if I would come back...), but more likely they will deal with it at least for a while because it sounds like they need people and they are paying you at the low end of the scale.
It's important to establish your boundaries and figure out what you are comfortable with in the work environment. There's nothing worse than nurturing resentment at work, and you've only just begun your career!
I would look for another position. Sounds like they are taking advantage of you. If you have some experience which it sound like you do you should be expecting more money. It doesn't sound like a good oppotunity.
arri, where are you getting your numbers? 50k is on the extremely high end as a starting salary for someone with a masters, even in SF. check the salary poll. more like $40k...not that i wouldn't try to ask for more, but i don't think i'd try asking for 50.
archimax, when you posted here last week asking about this job the overwhelming opinion was not to take it. some of the people who responded even predicted that exactly what seems to be happening would happen. i'm not suggesting that you were wrong not to listen to advice, particularly advice given on an internet message board, and i don't mean any disrespect to you, but it seems like if you had actually listened to what people were telling you last week, you may still have taken this job but you would not be so surprised about the current situation.
as cheesy as it may seem, ask for something in writing (some sort of contract detailing wage, overtime, benefits, vacation and sick/personal time) and try to get as much info as you can about their expectations for you. this probably should have been discussed during the interview, but better late than never. set your own standard. dont get into the habit of working 12 hr days without overtime, they might start to expect it after a while. its your job, not your life. dont work weekends. the 'needing second job because you cant afford to live' arguement is a good one. its probably your reality. still, however miserable things may be, go out, visit museums, volunteer, make friends in the business, find the local aia chapter, sign up for something . . . even if you feel like you are giving away more time, making contacts (and doing something fun) is extremely important right now, you never know where your next opportunity will come from. good luck.
14 bucks an hour aint bad to start in this business. other businesses yes. but not this one. and just how much do people think they are worth monetarily. im just curious.
a wide grin crossed my face as i turned and said, "but liberty bell, it's only depressing if you don't waaaant to be an architect."
and then, as i collected my thoughts and delved into my own experiences as i fresh faced architect, i offered this little personal anecdote for archimax, "sometime ago i too took my first job in an office that i had reservations about. initially, i told myself that there is no way that i am going to work for only $9/hour and although i was flattered that i was offered the position on the spot, i just didn't think that this was anywhere near enough money for someone with a college degree. well, i didn't score anymore job offers and soon enough i was working in that despised office. moreover, within the first week they had asked me to do some vacuuming since all the interior designers were out of the office and it was a slow afternoon. reluctantly, i wandered over to the ID side of the office and started to clean the floor but was surprised to find the vacuum cleaner to be a complete wreck. it was broken about four different ways - the belt kept slipping, broken wheel, and worst of all the thing had never been maintained. the hose was packed with dirt, the bag was full and the filter was so dirty that it literally changed colors once i rinsed it out. well, anybody who has ever opened a vacuum bag know what a tremendous mess all that dust can make and i was pretty much livid about the whole experience at that point. no way in hell was i staying in that office!--and it was a good thing that nobody else was in the ID office at that point because i was cussing up a storm. but that was just the first week and although they did ask me to do a lot of ridiculous and impossible things, i slowly became amazed with my ability to actually deliver on their demands. of course, i didn't think that i was appreciated and i did harbor some resentment but by the time i actually left the office the following year i was surprised to learn that everyone was sad to see me go. they all chipped in to buy me a gift, the bosses gave me a bonus as a thank you and the office took me out to the bar and all that jazz. in retrospect, though there was much unnecessary drama, i often find myself missing that office since at least it kept me on my toes. by comparison, everywhere else that i have since worked has bored the living shit out of me. better pay, yes, but also a level of cubicle-induced consistency that makes me want to scream or slit my wrists, or maybe just get fired...or something!"
then, as i paused to catch my breath and pour myself another johnny walker, i concluded my story with this, "you see, sometimes things aren't always what we think, though i hated that firm at first, i presevered with them and some years later when i found myself unemployed and in a tight market, it turned out that i had made a good enough impression on them that they hired me again. and this was at a time when my back was to the wall, they actually made a position for me and helped me immensely. i am still in contact with that office and they are probably friends for life, the catch was that i had to earn that. so...young archimax, don't get too discouraged just yet. find the necessary patience, it may turn out better than you expect."
a wide grin crossed my face as i turned and said, "but liberty bell, it's only depressing if you don't waaaant to be an architect."
and then, as i collected my thoughts and delved into my own experiences as i fresh faced architect, i offered this little personal anecdote for archimax, "sometime ago i too took my first job in an office that i had reservations about. initially, i told myself that there is no way that i am going to work for only $9/hour and although i was flattered that i was offered the position on the spot, i just didn't think that this was anywhere near enough money for someone with a college degree. well, i didn't score anymore job offers and soon enough i was working in that despised office. moreover, within the first week they had asked me to do some vacuuming since all the interior designers were out of the office and it was a slow afternoon. reluctantly, i wandered over to the ID side of the office and started to clean the floor but was surprised to find the vacuum cleaner to be a complete wreck. it was broken about four different ways - the belt kept slipping, broken wheel, and worst of all the thing had never been maintained. the hose was packed with dirt, the bag was full and the filter was so dirty that it literally changed colors once i rinsed it out. well, anybody who has ever opened a vacuum bag know what a tremendous mess all that dust can make and i was pretty much livid about the whole experience at that point. no way in hell was i staying in that office!--and it was a good thing that nobody else was in the ID office at that point because i was cussing up a storm. but that was just the first week and although they did ask me to do a lot of ridiculous and impossible things, i slowly became amazed with my ability to actually deliver on their demands. of course, i didn't think that i was appreciated and i did harbor some resentment but by the time i actually left the office the following year i was surprised to learn that everyone was sad to see me go. they all chipped in to buy me a gift, the bosses gave me a bonus as a thank you and the office took me out to the bar and all that jazz. in retrospect, though there was much unnecessary drama, i often find myself missing that office since at least it kept me on my toes. by comparison, everywhere else that i have since worked has bored the living shit out of me. better pay, yes, but also a level of cubicle-induced consistency that makes me want to scream or slit my wrists, or maybe just get fired...or something!"
then, as i paused to catch my breath and pour myself another johnny walker, i concluded my story with this, "you see, sometimes things aren't always what we think, though i hated that firm at first, i presevered with them and some years later when i found myself unemployed and in a tight market, it turned out that i had made a good enough impression on them that they hired me again. and this was at a time when my back was to the wall, they actually made a position for me and helped me immensely. i am still in contact with that office and they are probably friends for life, the catch was that i had to earn that. so...young archimax, don't get too discouraged just yet. find the necessary patience, it may turn out better than you expect."
How much money am I worth? Well, my county superior court called me for jury duty last week & paid a stunning $25/day. I'm sure that will be taxable income.
So this week, unbelievably, I'll consider myself wealthy.
BTW, if you ever wanna get out of jury duty, just say something to as many questions as possible when the attoneys screen the jury panels. It doesn't have to be 'yes', or 'no', but if they see that you like to make noise, they'll get scared of you.
Atty:"Mr. MysteryMan, have you ever been convicted of a felony?"
MM: Welllll, lemmmmmeeeee seeeee, theyyyyyrrrree? Hmmmm, Naw, never 'convicted.'
Atty:"Do any of you have ties to law enforcement?"
MM: "Well, my great-great grand-diddy wuz a sherifff, mah diddy wuz a sheriff, my mamma wuz a sheriff & me, I like to sit in police cars when no one's watching."
Anyway, onc again - neither here, nor there....but hopefully, always useful information. We've all gotta stand united in these trying times, ya know.
My 14/hr job!
As you guy may know about my 14/hr job. I actually accepted the job and was paid 14.5/hr to start. I actually ask for at least 15/hr but I think he tries to avoid that topic. We didnt even discussion health and other benefit today. Then I was dumped with a project already when I am not even familiar with the firm system. In the afternoon, I went out to do measurement in a abandon house. I was also told I have to finish a simple demolition plan, proposed plan, and elevation by end of tomorrow. On top of that I have to work overtime without paid (I am assuming) already. I am serious having doubt about this. Should I stay at the job or I just complaint too much?
Max =(
i think you work for my old boss. do it for 6 months and go for something better. read a lot and enter a competition.
what not to do: buy grocercies with a credit card
also, you need to realize that YOU WILL NEVER GET BENEFITS from him.
by the way, i measured an "abandoned" house in silverlake only to find a helpful & homeless drug addict to hold the tape.
I am up here in San Francisco though....
you complain too much...
Blood-boy, we all complain too much. That's why I come here, at least.
Archimax. What'd I tell you abt taking a $14/hr +/- job? Since you took the job, you've gotta give it time. If you're concerned abt. overtime, you need to talk directly w/ your boss. If he/she is evasive, put his/her feet to the fire & get an answer.
What's the worst that's gonna happen for puching your boss for an answer: You get fired. If this happens, then you learned a lot about that firm's character.
You're gonna find out that one of the worst things you can do in this field is to allow grey areas, lack of direction, or evasiveness to win the day. Since you're the jr guy (I assume), you know what always flows downhill. CLARiITY, son, CLARITY.
Are you a taxable employee or are you contract? Some firms will hire you as contract and let you believe that you are an employee. If you are contract, start looking for a new job now. Otherwise, give it a shot. You might learn a lot.
1. keep working
2. keep looking for yor next job
you're an architect, that's pretty much what we do until we die. welcome to the club.
Oh god puddles that's about as depressing as those meth addict's faces....
archimax go read that "Romance and Professionalism" thread to give you some optimism.
Realistically, Mystery's advice is right on - the grey areas will kill you, and if your emplyer thinks you're a pushover than you're sure as hell never going to advance. You could give it 6 months and learn what you can, but keep looking.
Good luck - think about it over the weekend.
How old are you archimax?
ask directly about overtime. If he says you're not getting paid for it, tell him his deadlines are unrealistic. If he probes further into this, tell him you're unable to work without pay, because it looks like you'll need a second job to pay the rent, because 14x40x4= 2240, minus around 25% for taxes, is around 1600, and that's not doing it to live on.
archMAXX,
$14.00 per hour in San Fran??? Do you have a degree? Any experience? If you a Masters then you should be asking for $50,000 per year around $25.00 per hour.
I would just do what I can and if they don't like it then let them fire me. Maybe by then you can collect unemployment! Which won't be much less then you get payed now!
Oh, don't work overtime with out pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Check California's Industrial Welfare Comissions on how wages work. You might be automatically entitled to overtime pay.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/IWC/iwc.html
Architecture falls under Personal Services Industries I think. The rules governing your pay also should be posted somewhere in your office (I think this is law).
It is unfair for them to ask you to work overtime immediately after you start with no explanation of whether you'll be paid or not, no discussion of benefits, etc. It also sounds as though there is very poor communication in the office. To give them a little leeway, they may not realize you feel as though this has been dumped on you and that the deadline is unrealistic. You can discuss it with them now or do your best and see where you are in a few days (you may be surprised by how much you are able to accomplish, or may feel extremely frustrated and overwhelmed).
If you feel you need to discuss it with the boss, be straightforward - explain that you are concerned the deadline is unrealistic (given that you'll be working 8-9 hour days), and are they expecting you to work overtime? and then ask if you'll be paid for it. If not, you need to decide whether you want to agree to it or not - they are probably required to pay you for it legally, but that doesn't mean they will. If you don't want to work the extra hours (and some people really are ok with it), then you'll need to tell them you will not be working overtime without being paid on a regular basis, and see what happens.
They may decide to lay you off (this happened to me when working for a relatively well known architect, though whether or not the laying off had to do with my refusal to work week-ends or just a downturn in the economy was unclear, and then they did call me a week later and offer to pay me hourly if I would come back...), but more likely they will deal with it at least for a while because it sounds like they need people and they are paying you at the low end of the scale.
It's important to establish your boundaries and figure out what you are comfortable with in the work environment. There's nothing worse than nurturing resentment at work, and you've only just begun your career!
I would look for another position. Sounds like they are taking advantage of you. If you have some experience which it sound like you do you should be expecting more money. It doesn't sound like a good oppotunity.
arri, where are you getting your numbers? 50k is on the extremely high end as a starting salary for someone with a masters, even in SF. check the salary poll. more like $40k...not that i wouldn't try to ask for more, but i don't think i'd try asking for 50.
archimax, when you posted here last week asking about this job the overwhelming opinion was not to take it. some of the people who responded even predicted that exactly what seems to be happening would happen. i'm not suggesting that you were wrong not to listen to advice, particularly advice given on an internet message board, and i don't mean any disrespect to you, but it seems like if you had actually listened to what people were telling you last week, you may still have taken this job but you would not be so surprised about the current situation.
as cheesy as it may seem, ask for something in writing (some sort of contract detailing wage, overtime, benefits, vacation and sick/personal time) and try to get as much info as you can about their expectations for you. this probably should have been discussed during the interview, but better late than never. set your own standard. dont get into the habit of working 12 hr days without overtime, they might start to expect it after a while. its your job, not your life. dont work weekends. the 'needing second job because you cant afford to live' arguement is a good one. its probably your reality. still, however miserable things may be, go out, visit museums, volunteer, make friends in the business, find the local aia chapter, sign up for something . . . even if you feel like you are giving away more time, making contacts (and doing something fun) is extremely important right now, you never know where your next opportunity will come from. good luck.
Whatever you choose to do, fill out a review on InsideArch so that others can avoid (or be prepared for) this same firm.
http://www.insidearch.org
evilplatypus
I am 28..
I am still waiting for a decision from another firm and have another interview next monday in proximity. Hopefully, better outlook in those.
14 bucks an hour aint bad to start in this business. other businesses yes. but not this one. and just how much do people think they are worth monetarily. im just curious.
I'm worth at LEAST $250 a night. Er, day.
Yeah but that's $14 before taxes right? Ouch.
sold
a wide grin crossed my face as i turned and said, "but liberty bell, it's only depressing if you don't waaaant to be an architect."
and then, as i collected my thoughts and delved into my own experiences as i fresh faced architect, i offered this little personal anecdote for archimax, "sometime ago i too took my first job in an office that i had reservations about. initially, i told myself that there is no way that i am going to work for only $9/hour and although i was flattered that i was offered the position on the spot, i just didn't think that this was anywhere near enough money for someone with a college degree. well, i didn't score anymore job offers and soon enough i was working in that despised office. moreover, within the first week they had asked me to do some vacuuming since all the interior designers were out of the office and it was a slow afternoon. reluctantly, i wandered over to the ID side of the office and started to clean the floor but was surprised to find the vacuum cleaner to be a complete wreck. it was broken about four different ways - the belt kept slipping, broken wheel, and worst of all the thing had never been maintained. the hose was packed with dirt, the bag was full and the filter was so dirty that it literally changed colors once i rinsed it out. well, anybody who has ever opened a vacuum bag know what a tremendous mess all that dust can make and i was pretty much livid about the whole experience at that point. no way in hell was i staying in that office!--and it was a good thing that nobody else was in the ID office at that point because i was cussing up a storm. but that was just the first week and although they did ask me to do a lot of ridiculous and impossible things, i slowly became amazed with my ability to actually deliver on their demands. of course, i didn't think that i was appreciated and i did harbor some resentment but by the time i actually left the office the following year i was surprised to learn that everyone was sad to see me go. they all chipped in to buy me a gift, the bosses gave me a bonus as a thank you and the office took me out to the bar and all that jazz. in retrospect, though there was much unnecessary drama, i often find myself missing that office since at least it kept me on my toes. by comparison, everywhere else that i have since worked has bored the living shit out of me. better pay, yes, but also a level of cubicle-induced consistency that makes me want to scream or slit my wrists, or maybe just get fired...or something!"
then, as i paused to catch my breath and pour myself another johnny walker, i concluded my story with this, "you see, sometimes things aren't always what we think, though i hated that firm at first, i presevered with them and some years later when i found myself unemployed and in a tight market, it turned out that i had made a good enough impression on them that they hired me again. and this was at a time when my back was to the wall, they actually made a position for me and helped me immensely. i am still in contact with that office and they are probably friends for life, the catch was that i had to earn that. so...young archimax, don't get too discouraged just yet. find the necessary patience, it may turn out better than you expect."
a wide grin crossed my face as i turned and said, "but liberty bell, it's only depressing if you don't waaaant to be an architect."
and then, as i collected my thoughts and delved into my own experiences as i fresh faced architect, i offered this little personal anecdote for archimax, "sometime ago i too took my first job in an office that i had reservations about. initially, i told myself that there is no way that i am going to work for only $9/hour and although i was flattered that i was offered the position on the spot, i just didn't think that this was anywhere near enough money for someone with a college degree. well, i didn't score anymore job offers and soon enough i was working in that despised office. moreover, within the first week they had asked me to do some vacuuming since all the interior designers were out of the office and it was a slow afternoon. reluctantly, i wandered over to the ID side of the office and started to clean the floor but was surprised to find the vacuum cleaner to be a complete wreck. it was broken about four different ways - the belt kept slipping, broken wheel, and worst of all the thing had never been maintained. the hose was packed with dirt, the bag was full and the filter was so dirty that it literally changed colors once i rinsed it out. well, anybody who has ever opened a vacuum bag know what a tremendous mess all that dust can make and i was pretty much livid about the whole experience at that point. no way in hell was i staying in that office!--and it was a good thing that nobody else was in the ID office at that point because i was cussing up a storm. but that was just the first week and although they did ask me to do a lot of ridiculous and impossible things, i slowly became amazed with my ability to actually deliver on their demands. of course, i didn't think that i was appreciated and i did harbor some resentment but by the time i actually left the office the following year i was surprised to learn that everyone was sad to see me go. they all chipped in to buy me a gift, the bosses gave me a bonus as a thank you and the office took me out to the bar and all that jazz. in retrospect, though there was much unnecessary drama, i often find myself missing that office since at least it kept me on my toes. by comparison, everywhere else that i have since worked has bored the living shit out of me. better pay, yes, but also a level of cubicle-induced consistency that makes me want to scream or slit my wrists, or maybe just get fired...or something!"
then, as i paused to catch my breath and pour myself another johnny walker, i concluded my story with this, "you see, sometimes things aren't always what we think, though i hated that firm at first, i presevered with them and some years later when i found myself unemployed and in a tight market, it turned out that i had made a good enough impression on them that they hired me again. and this was at a time when my back was to the wall, they actually made a position for me and helped me immensely. i am still in contact with that office and they are probably friends for life, the catch was that i had to earn that. so...young archimax, don't get too discouraged just yet. find the necessary patience, it may turn out better than you expect."
thanks, i didnt get that the first time.
How much money am I worth? Well, my county superior court called me for jury duty last week & paid a stunning $25/day. I'm sure that will be taxable income.
So this week, unbelievably, I'll consider myself wealthy.
BTW, if you ever wanna get out of jury duty, just say something to as many questions as possible when the attoneys screen the jury panels. It doesn't have to be 'yes', or 'no', but if they see that you like to make noise, they'll get scared of you.
Atty:"Mr. MysteryMan, have you ever been convicted of a felony?"
MM: Welllll, lemmmmmeeeee seeeee, theyyyyyrrrree? Hmmmm, Naw, never 'convicted.'
Atty:"Do any of you have ties to law enforcement?"
MM: "Well, my great-great grand-diddy wuz a sherifff, mah diddy wuz a sheriff, my mamma wuz a sheriff & me, I like to sit in police cars when no one's watching."
Anyway, onc again - neither here, nor there....but hopefully, always useful information. We've all gotta stand united in these trying times, ya know.
I got $14 an hour on my first job with 1.5x overtime pay. That was 13yrs ago.
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