no one will ever, ever want to live off the earth if they have the option. i think the moon and mars will remain like antarctica, a no man's land open for scientific study and possibly prospecting for raw materials. people who think the world will get too crowded or polluted are full of shit. humans would much rather control population and manage the enviroment than live in places hostile to human habitation. perhaps people will thrive permanently on other planets, but it won't be for hundreds or even thousands of years when we find a way to travel to other earth-like planets.

Tell all my friends
I have gone to the moon
Tell all my friends
I will write them soon
And tell them
If you see them
That I am better left alone

’cause I’m living up here where the air is thin
And where gravity don’t bring you down
Yeah I’m living up here and I’m watching your universe cooling down

I spend my days beneath a perspex dome
I think that I have finally come home

So tell them
If you see them
That I am better left alone

’cause I’m living up here where the air is thin
And where gravity don’t bring you down
Yeah I’m living up here and I’m watching your universe cooling down

Yeah I’m living up here where the air is thin
And where gravity don’t bring you down
I’m living up here and I’m watching your universe cooling down

.......Tom Mcrae


Crater face, nothing beats a full moon. Even death becomes a satellite. I want to curl up into a comma on his pillow.

Before the moon is colonized, it will first be 'purchased' by the Ordenen Nuevo del Nuevo Mundo" - a conglomerate of global superpowers neutered by their own conglomeration.

Christo's great grandson, a pop "stArtist", will be 'volunteered' to execute this massive canvas. The U.S. will, of course, finance and provide tools and logistics for the operation.

In a bland and 'inoffensive font' carefully chosen to avoid any trace of historical origin, a logo slowly takes shape over an entire side of the moon. A symbol of unity, a symbol turned diety...humankind initiates their beautiful and technologically innovative self-immolation...all in the name of helping 'the common man'.

12. Journey to the Moon


Malcolm and Patricia passed under the
cedar of Lebanon, strolled down the gravel
path beside the Irish yews.
They entered the old avenue of baroque
beech, passed the granite obelisk that
rested upon a base of porphyry, past the
place of the vanished water-stairs.
They turned to the east and walked
toward the place of Moon-rise.
They crossed the antique bridge with
the carven masks, and ascended the hill
through the rough grass to where the
mausoleum stood.
It was a high dark freestone mass,
built upon the ironstone remains of an
ancient fortification. It was guarded by
a closely-set circle of Tuscan columns.
Here and there pieces of the en-
tablature were missing; chunks out of
the columns were lying on the ground.
Malcolm paused.
Patricia ascended the mannerist stair-
case. She passed in under the lintel, and
said, “Archimedes, you live here; and
Plato, the ringed crater, this shade is your
abode.”
The interior was a column of honey-
coloured light. Four false doors in the
style of Michelangelo decorated the
walls. The high ceiling was a shallow
stone dome, punctured by an oculus
that gave the sole illumination. On
either side of the stripped altar stood
the marble tombs.
A circle of columns grew out of the
walls; the architectural elements slow-
ly moved.
Malcolm turned and said, “In the
threshold I heard the angelus bell.”
High up on the cold, exfoliating
walls the hooded saints looked out in
a ring from their niches. They were
caught in their stone draperies, im-
mobile upon the narrow plinths.
A beating of wings passed through
the air.
Patricia stood still, and spoke these
words of the dead poet, “The black
ribbons that flutter in the black air,
In the dark wind winding ‘round the
brim and in the hair.”

i suspect that human habitation of the moon is a very long ways off. under the current paradigm of fossil fuel generated energy it just isn't economically feasble to have people living on the moon. in fact, we can barely afford to send people safely into orbit anymore as evidenced by the continuing troubles that nasa is having with the space shuttle.

it might happen someday, but i think that there will need to be a major scientific break through of some type before it occurs. that might be 100 years from now, 1000 years or quite possibly never.

never going to happen....even moon travel seems to be an idea full of shit...there are so many cool places and cultures to see on earth, more than one could possibly fathom in a lifetime, who would want to go to the moon?? and living on the moon makes some excellent student projects, but in the end they are just 'interesting' studies.

related but off the topic, i think space exploration is really overrated. Wouldn't governments be better off pumping the billions of dollars into education etc?? specially for developing countries. sure, unmanned space operations have proved to be very useful to us over the years, from celphones, gps, the works, but i still have to fathom the real usefulness of man-in-space operations, beyond 'knowing more about our universe'

Well you guys are completely wrong.
It will probably be less than 100 years.

ps. why has everone gon all oe-ey lately?

big dead elephant,

i followed your link and read the article so maybe your right and i'm wrong. even so, i am still skeptical of this business of harvesting the moon for energy. the expense for an enterprise of that kind simply seems like it is beyond the level of affordabilty for any current human institution. it seems more likely to me that we will burn up all of our resources down here on earth fighting each other long before we could ever manage the level of cooperation needed to establish long term operations on the moon. i know i am speculating, but that's my 2¢

too much blade runner, not enough star-trek?

going to the moon may not be profitable in the sense that trump tower is profitable, but that isn't the right yard stick.

We learned a lot from going to the moon in the late 60's, early 70's and the technology has been useful for everyone. I mean, just think there would never have been TANG if not for NASA...

knowing about our solar system and the universe is intrinsically important, but i am sure we can learn enough about other things on the way to the moon (or mars) to make it worth doing even for those on the ground.

The thing most appealling about space flight is that it is unremittingly positive and oriented to the future. How many other human enterprises are like that? It may be nerdy but at least it isn't cynical.

jump, im trying to say, if you read my post that even though space stuff is cool, and there are a lot of innovations that can be attributed to space - tang, teflon, velcro.
And yes it points towards the future and is progressive. But billions of taxpayer dollars for these innovations only??? Space flight has given us a lot of important things, but i just do not get the man in space thing.
Admittedly in the US, the good part about NASA is that if they would not exist, we would just make more weapons using that money to bomb the shit out of say, iraq. But for developing countries, it just does not make any sense.
Okay, time out !!!

jump,

i am not skeptical because i doubt the value of the space program, whether you put it in terms of trump tower profitably or the more intangible benefits of tang. i am skeptical of this man on the moon talk because i don't think anybody can actually afford to make the initial investment.

to date, the u.s. government is the only entity that has had the access to the kind of capital needed for a trip to the moon and it is not exactly flush with cash these days. in fact, it seems that they are already running the shuttle program on a shoe string budget. i am not an accountant by any means, but i would have to imagine that the budget to pull off a long term sustainable moon operation would be absolutely sick and would probably bankrupt western civilization.

maybe so, maybe so.

i am admittedly a romantic when it comes to space travel, still i believe the money will be found if there is a will. or it will happen in another way, maybe the technology will come from the same sort of deal as the X prize.

whether it will be worth the investment is tough to call except in hindsight, but who would honestly say the gemini and apollo missions were a waste? different context and politics, but we need this kind of stuff even more today than we did then.

i can't explain it rationally but the will to explore the edges, of society, science, geography, whatever is for me a key to the human psyche. Staying in the safe zone feels like failure.

so i was pretty happy when bush announced his support for an expanded space exploration budget for nasa (inclusing a push to have a manned trip to mars). that he didn't back his words with funds is unfortunate, but he had his war to pay for...still, maybe someday soon the desire to follow through will return...seems more worthwhile than fighting a war in iraq, and probably cheaper too.

Bush and "his war" and a trip to the planet of the God of War all make sense...

<Sorry Im a dork>

why do you say you're a dork: Look: we have to face the fact that the Sun, sooner or later is going to explode into a red giant to the orbit of Mars, and consume the Earth and everything on it. the Sun will then collapse into a white dwarf and then a black hole. How will human civilisation survive these catastrophes? also whether or not the universe will continue to expand indefinitely or start to collapse again and there be a Big Crunch. these problems don't exactly keep me awake at night, but I do think about them. The Sun (I am told) is a highly stable star: but we don't know and it presumably COULD explode at any time into a supernova, consuming the Earth and our civilisation. the latter is improbable, but still worth thinking about, especially if the scientists have got their data wrong.

not only that, but until we obtain evidence of life, let alone intelligent life outside of this world (I refuse to believe that a superior species would travel all the way here to talk to rednecks), we are effectively the consciousness of the universe, its only awareness (unless you believe that it has some intrinsic awareness itself), and therefore have a responsibility to ensure that this consciousness is not lost with one accident or war or other stupidity on one tiny planet.
(This may sound like an earth/human centred view in the style of the pre-Copernican model of the universe, but im not suggesting that we are the centre or the result of any purpose, but that as far as we know we are the only beings that have quantified, measured or speculated on the nature of existence).
Im putting favourable odds on the first human visit to mars being at least partly privately funded.

yes, I think it has been argued that we - our brains made out of carbon and calcium etc. and other heavier elements formed out of other supernovae in our galaxy ARE the intrinsic self-consciousness of the Universe. a very precious thing this is to be preserved: as well as the 'crystals' grown out of this phenomenon of the universe aware of itself for the first time (for all we know) such as Chartres Cathedral, Ronchamp, the Parthenon etc. We are conscious of our consciousness: the only place we know this is is here on Earth- so I agree it is a kind of return to a pre-Copernican model of the universe...

john, we are only the self consciousness of the universe until we discover other inteligent life (which i believe we will). that is why this currently appears pre-Copernican, but like the earth centred universe this position will be be superceded and we will again be made aware of our uninportance (unless we are alone then our continued existance is of greater importance than the imediate sum of our lives)

what i am suggesting is that their are other reasons besides money, science, and simple curiosity for the continuation of human exploration.

le bossman, i dont know, i rekon there would be people willing to leave for good to set up a permenant base, there are some amazingly driven people out there

yes, I agree with you "until" we discover other intelligent life. (sometimes I wonder if there is any intelligent life on this planet...)

why are you so confident that we will discover other intelligent life? i definitely believe it exists somewhere out there, but our abilities to pinpoint it and to travel to it are astronomically slim.

Bow-wow
Chi-hua-hua-hua-hua-hua!
Dog, bad dog, bad dog, best dog
Bow-wow-wow-wow-wow
Chi-hua-hua-hua-hua-hua!

It were aliens who started this green popularity
Sure were aliens

They are green
Want everything
Green and brown
No mistake
New demand
Will be made
All must be green
Everything

When they land
The aliens would be made the laughing stock of planet earth
They are green
They intend
To occupy
Planet earth
They have green
Want everything
Green and brown

......and ...its Bjork's Sugarcubes. All the robbins bring, bring me many things

I hope some of you remember this song:

WHITEY ON THE MOON

A rat done bit my sister Nell.
(with Whitey on the moon)
Her face and arms began to swell.
(and Whitey's on the moon)
I can't pay no doctor bill.
(but Whitey's on the moon)
Ten years from now I'll be payin' still.
(while Whitey's on the moon)
The man jus' upped my rent las' night.
('cause Whitey's on the moon)
No hot water, no toilets, no lights.
(but Whitey's on the moon)
I wonder why he's uppi' me?
('cause Whitey's on the moon?)
I wuz already payin' 'im fifty a week.
(with Whitey on the moon)
Taxes takin' my whole damn check,
Junkies makin' me a nervous wreck,
The price of food is goin' up,
An' as if all that shit wuzn't enough:
A rat done bit my sister Nell.
(with Whitey on the moon)
Her face an' arm began to swell.
(but Whitey's on the moon)
Was all that money I made las' year
(for Whitey on the moon?)
How come there ain't no money here?
(Hmm! Whitey's on the moon)
Y'know I jus' 'bout had my fill
(of Whitey on the moon)
I think I'll sen' these doctor bills,
Airmail special
(to Whitey on the moon)

i would be willing to leave to set up a permanent base, but i'm really, really intense. most people are too lazy to do something like that.

i would go (i think, easy to say now).

imagine being the first martian architect.

imagine building in 1/3 gravity. (pity its too cold for concrete to set)

oh, i don't doubt that there isn't all kinds of fun technical challenges for architects working on the moon or mars (no gravity, too cold for concrete, etc.) if anything there is probably too many challenges. even breathing requires attachment to an apparatus nonstop. the whole experience is probably more like being a crippled person here on earth than it is anything like in a spaceship or buck rodgers movie.

The future of space belongs to tourism. Hilton on the moon. I'd go for a vacation.

Exactly ----- there are other systems under develobment than just the energy demanding ones. Try search for Space elevator or Space lift, fact is already calculated it is in theory possible with a space elevator ,fysics make it possible emagine just an elevator it will ask so little energy it acturly iself could produce enough energy ; so now way's different attitudes are possible already .
The problem would be, that the sheer weight of a cable ancored to a satelite in particular the right spot ,would breal itself under it's own weight, but nannotubes may solve that problem being 100 times stronger than steel at lower weight .. And why shuldn't humans go there if we can we are made to do just that, maby we are alone in the universe isn't it then our duty.
Still maby it is first an idea, to make digital work instead of doing everything as alway's just put into fast computer code, maby it ask another attitude to even reach there.

personally, i would say we aren't so far off from being able to set up moon/mars colonies, but finding the right type of person to go out there, and stay out there, would be difficult. i think there are definately people that would do it, but there are few who could do it and be truly happy. i think for it to work, it would have to be done with entire families.

as for the space elevator, while doable, i don't see it happening. the odds of it breaking, by tiny meateorite, terroist attack, or our own human error, are simply too high. while collapsing, it would devestate the immediate area around it as well. i also have no clue who would fund this type of venture as the risks would be so high. the entire world would have to get behind it, and if we look at our collective track record for destroying ourselves, i can honestly say it will be a while.

Hi
Yes but it prove one fact --- that there are other way's, that sci-fiction interduced the space elevator don't mean that parts of the concept will never come to work it maby work better on other planets than earth,
The concept ask a satelite in fixed orbit something that can only be done a few places on earth some of these are over sea, so the dameage of one collapsing are not that great while the satelite remain in orbit and are cut lose of the wire case it break , but still the materials are not yet develobed even in theory possible ---- things like that are manufactored in space with zero gravity adding new abilities to materials ,so we will not get there unless we try and try again.

Before we go to the moon, we need to figure out what to do with the earth first. The Long Emergency. We are so wreckless.

and before we find intelligent life on the planets we must first find it on earth (in the White House?)

Life on a planet is vulnerable to an inevitable extinction level event. There exists the means to expand that life in order to prevent its destruction, but the development of that means will require the collective economic servitude of every living human. Should humanity sacrifice its intrinsic freedom in order to save its biosphere?



Stage one (obedience and punishment): Humanity should not sacrifice its freedom, because people will be unhappy if they have to work all the time.

Stage two (self-interest): Humanity should sacrifice its freedom, because people will be happier if they save all the plants and animals.

Stage three (interbiological accord and conformity): Humanity should sacrifice its freedom, because the natural imperative demands it.

Stage four (authority and social-order maintaining): Humanity should not sacrifice its freedom, because the human imperative demands it.

Stage five (biological contract orientation): Humanity should sacrifice its freedom, because life has the right to continue existing, regardless of anthropocentric demands.

Stage six (universal ethics): Humanity should sacrifice its freedom, because the existence of life intrinsically has more value than individual freedom.

Stage seven (transcendental morality): Humanity should not sacrifice its freedom. All things die, but existence endures. The exploration of temporal existence is paramount to all other concerns.