By page? By hour? By type of programming? ...meaning flash or dreamworks as oppossed to something done in word. How do you deal with the server, meaning does the owner have to get his own contract or does he do it thru me?
Charge a base hourly rate for the actual menial work of constructing a website.
Increase your rates, or add a lump sum if you are creating artwork, including branding or logo design.
Increase your rates if you have to create content - whether that be text, scanning images, photography etc.
If you have specialist skills, or if the client wants a flash-based site [instead of a basic html site], increase your base rate.
You can act as an agent for setting up the admin side of the hosting and registration process, and pass on the costs to the client, or mark-up the charges and add them to their bill.
Finally, give the client a fee that you will not exceed based on the requirements above.
does someone know of a good site on the net with tutorials and such to learn how to build a nice website? ... not those geocities ugly sites but nice and decent (and not too complicated - HTML) sites like Archinect?
If you have something like Dreamweaver, I would recommend simply getting the basics of CSS and HTML down by looking at the multitude of websites on the net. Then I would just keep making boxes with different background colors or whatever using css and keep editing the properties until you start to understand how the changes affect the final look in a web browser. Thats what I did.
Oh, and find someone who knows some of the basics, it will make a world of difference, when you can't figure something out.
I had a quick attempt at making a website and found that writing some simple html worked best for me. Its a very basic website with only a few lines of code but it works... link
I've learned the basics through some online tutorials which tells you how to get something online but it looks quite amateuristic. Currently I'm reading this book on html and I thinks its a very good book to fully understand how html works: Beginning Web Programming with HTML, XHTML, and CSS
by Jon Duckett
ISBN: 0-7645-7078-1
July 2004
840 pages
Medit: www.htmlgoodies.com helped me alot back in the days when I was a novice web designer. I haven't really checked it since I quit that field of work back in, oh like 2000, but it's still there. Maybe worth checking out, I dunno.
And you charge by the hour, you start of charging alot too... and then you lower your prices either a little or alot, depending on how many "nephews who are good with computers" the client in question has. A good rule is to make sure you always have atleast one "grandparent who slips you $50 bills" per nephew of his and thereby state that you're as independent of him as he is of you.
the place that I work is currently working with a web marketing and design firm (as consultants) and they charge us $250 a page, mostly HTML programming, Flash as an option, extra toys cost extra (that is, dynamic pages, database, file and rank etc). Keep in mind, they are an established firm doing a full service web-site design. (our site is not an Arch-firm site)
Tectonic -
Since it sounds like you're just starting out you might want to charge a flat fee for the design. You'll be hard pressed to defend the hourly fee when you're tooling around trying to figure things out. Plus, it's a pain to keep up with quarter hour increments.
Have them register the domain and hosting unless you want to contact them every year for renewal. www.godaddy.com I register domains with these guys www.icdsoft.com I host with these guys
However you could host & register the domain with just one so it is less confusing. In fact, just do it that way.
Get an idea of how in depth the site will be and base your flat fee off that. If it's small like contact info, etc. then charge $500-750 and include any minor changes or copy updates for one year. If it's a more in depth site (including flash) charge $1000-$2500 and include minor changes for a year.
Flash is a pandora's box that you may not want to open up to your client. It's easier to talk them out of it than have them look over your shoulder coaching along the animation.
Have them provide copy digitally. You do not want to spend your time writing or trying to communicate their goals, etc. Trust me. Plus, this removes a liability from you.
Friends of Ed write good books on HTML, Flash, etc. Check them out.
If you really want to learn web design, and learn some skills that are at the forefront of standards compatability, start learning XHTML and full CSS layout, aka NO TABLES.
Tables were never meant for web layout. They were meant for displaying rows of data (think Excel).
Using a single external CSS stylesheet, you can control the entire layout, positioning, text style (which CSS has long been used for), and placement of graphical elements throughout the entire site. Changing the font for a particular section means you only change it in one section and it populates the rest of the site. Download times are reduced because each HTML page is simplified.
You will see it referred to frequently as "Seperation of Content and Presentation." Your HTML pages contain your content, much in the same look as a Word file. Your CSS page contains the presentation aspects.
To get a look at some things related to creating sites this way: http://www.csszengarden.com/
Zen Garden is a very good site. The gist of it is that people download the CSS and HTML, and make changes only to the CSS page to change the look of the site. Go through the various designs and you will get a good idea of how it works.
There's tons to learn and it's probably not that easy if you are totally new to this stuff, but good luck.
Is registering their website something that the client may just have to deal with wether they want to or not? Because it sounds like otherwise I would need to contact him once a year to renew and I would rather stay away from that.
Also, I think you are absolutely right; I'm going to stay away from Flash (it is a pandoras box). Thank you for the great info on fees.
aaronUF,
At my office we had a graphic designer charge us $400/page and she has been working on 5 pages for the last two months. Obviously she's not very good. But I wonder if I can get away with charging $300/page for HTML no flash.
I prefer to have the client register the site. Back in the golden .com days designers would do everything and mark it up but clients are more savvy now. I still have a couple of clients that I have to call every year and bill for renewing their stuff; that just sucks.
After you've sealed the deal on designing the site, sit down with them in their office (with their credit card) and register the site and hosting. This way they fill out all the info and you are just sheparding them along.
Another downside to registering it yourself is that you'll get a ton of junk mail since your address, etc. is the official information for the site. That sucks, too.
tectonic - i would suggest first learning how to properly create a website before concerning yourself with standard pricing procedures. becoming a professional web designer (charging clients for your work) is much more complicated than going through a few online tutorials or reading a book on HTML. it usually takes years of practice and learning to create a professional website. work on personal websites or make websites for your friends/family for free to get some experience before attempting to tackle a real client project.
i don't agree with the "per page" pricing method... that's akin to an architect charging a client per floor. there are many other variables to take into consideration when pricing a web design project. once you have sufficient experience with web development you will be able to assess a clients needs and expectations to determine the effort that is required to properly complete the project. standard procedure to pricing a project is to combine a time estimate with a variation of skill requirements and project liability. to learn more about pricing i highly recommend picking up a copy of Graphic Artists Guild Handbook.
i also agree with paul regarding the "per page" method. each clients needs are different and must be addressed specifically, and all pages are not equally as simple or complex.
I am sure graphic designers love architects pretending to do web design about as much as architects like contractors pretending to do house design. Just because you have Dreamworks (or weaver) doesnt mean you are qualified to make a website.
If architects want our profession to be respected we should respect others, at the very least you might want to partner with someone who knows a bit more about the biz...
1) Page (or two) to address the client's needs. This is a bullet list with short descriptions of what the site will consist of. Maybe a diagram of the site for those visual thinkers out there. Don't get too in depth because you don't want them taking your diagram and giving it to someone who they'll pay less to implement it.
2) Prints of existing sites of competitors. Pick three companies that have sites and are in the same business as your client. Select three site designs: the best site design, middle of the road, and the worst site design in the history of man (I'm talking broken links, bad graphics, etc.) Arrange them in the proposal in that order. Your client will see the best first and by the time they see the bad design they'll understand why to pay you instead of a kid in middle school who wants to do it for a class project. Then you hit them with the price.
3) Restate everything from the first page with a price next to it. It could be just a bottom line total.
Of course you want all of this to be in your own proposal frame work not just a bunch of pages out of Word and prints from a website. Make it a package.
I also agree that the per page is not the way to go. It's not applicable, unless you are dong a boring html site where everything is essentially the say, just with different blurbs of text.
Like most things, you do one, keep track of the hours, then next time charge what you want based on a reasonable $/hr x the time it took. As you get faster, you can charge more.
Lastly, learn about the design aspects of it. Bad web design is not just about poor knowledge of the tools, it's about bad design. Study good graphic design, study good websites, and practice.
You are right I do need to properly put a website together, no doubt. On the other hand he needs my service and I need the money. He is aware that I don't have much experience but he is willing to both give me a chance and pay me for it. I certainly don't claim to be a great web designer but I do feel capable of puting together a website that functions, pragamtically anyhow. I will purchase Graphic Artists Guild Handbook: Pricing & Ethical Guidelines, it looks like a very helpful book.
Kix,
Thank you very much again for your brakedown. Great info, how can I manage payments? In quarters, 50% upfront than 50% once it's running. I guess that at this point it could be an infinity of different options. Thanks again for your input.
trace,
Because my knowledge is so limited I'm hoping that by keeping the site as simple as possible I will be able to have a simple but sophisticated graphic layout. So that while there won't be any flash ther will be very carefully layed out graphics. But, regardless I do as you say need to study good graphic design and practice it.
I don't plan to make a living from it. But if someone is willing to pay for my learning why not take the opportunity?
Excellent. This give me a very good start, I actually have a meeting today at 5pm PST to discuss the proposal (which I haven't done, but now able to, thanks to all of your inputs) and hopefully he'll get a good vibe from me and feel comfortable collaborating. ARCHINECTORS YA'LL CAME THRU. THANK YOU.
25% due up front, 50% due at 50% of time quote (based on your original time quote), 75% due at 75% of time quote, 100% due 1 month after website broadcast. (standard invoicing?)
depending on the size of the job i bill as follows >>
small jobs, 7k and less: 50% up front, 50% on completion
medium jobs, 7-30k: i bill in thirds: 33% up front, 33% when half complete, and 33% on completion.
large jobs, over 30k: i bill in quarters.
terms: 30 days.
this is by no means a hard rule. each client is unique, and i will be flexible if needed. that said, i have never had a client complain of my billing structure.
Like most of the people on this post, I charge 50% at the begining and the other 50% when the site is done.
I specialized in Flash websites. When a project comes from scratch I bill on a project basis, and when is just to upgrade an existing site I charge per hour.
To give you a rough idea, a 5 pages flash website will cost you around $3000 and I have an hourly rate of $125 per upgrading an existing site.
Tectonic: Good luck in this adventure. What doesn't make any sense is that you are asking how much to charge for a website when you dodn't know how to build one.
Learn how to walk before start runing!!!
Jul 9, 05 10:44 pm ·
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How do you charge for website design?
By page? By hour? By type of programming? ...meaning flash or dreamworks as oppossed to something done in word. How do you deal with the server, meaning does the owner have to get his own contract or does he do it thru me?
?
Charge a base hourly rate for the actual menial work of constructing a website.
Increase your rates, or add a lump sum if you are creating artwork, including branding or logo design.
Increase your rates if you have to create content - whether that be text, scanning images, photography etc.
If you have specialist skills, or if the client wants a flash-based site [instead of a basic html site], increase your base rate.
You can act as an agent for setting up the admin side of the hosting and registration process, and pass on the costs to the client, or mark-up the charges and add them to their bill.
Finally, give the client a fee that you will not exceed based on the requirements above.
does someone know of a good site on the net with tutorials and such to learn how to build a nice website? ... not those geocities ugly sites but nice and decent (and not too complicated - HTML) sites like Archinect?
I LOOK AT SOURCE... IF I SEE SOMETHING I LIKE, I TRY TO LEARN IT...
If you have something like Dreamweaver, I would recommend simply getting the basics of CSS and HTML down by looking at the multitude of websites on the net. Then I would just keep making boxes with different background colors or whatever using css and keep editing the properties until you start to understand how the changes affect the final look in a web browser. Thats what I did.
Oh, and find someone who knows some of the basics, it will make a world of difference, when you can't figure something out.
I had a quick attempt at making a website and found that writing some simple html worked best for me. Its a very basic website with only a few lines of code but it works... link
I've learned the basics through some online tutorials which tells you how to get something online but it looks quite amateuristic. Currently I'm reading this book on html and I thinks its a very good book to fully understand how html works: Beginning Web Programming with HTML, XHTML, and CSS
by Jon Duckett
ISBN: 0-7645-7078-1
July 2004
840 pages
Hope this helps.
Medit:
www.htmlgoodies.com helped me alot back in the days when I was a novice web designer. I haven't really checked it since I quit that field of work back in, oh like 2000, but it's still there. Maybe worth checking out, I dunno.
And you charge by the hour, you start of charging alot too... and then you lower your prices either a little or alot, depending on how many "nephews who are good with computers" the client in question has. A good rule is to make sure you always have atleast one "grandparent who slips you $50 bills" per nephew of his and thereby state that you're as independent of him as he is of you.
Thank you for all your help. This has been very helpful.
Tectonic,
the place that I work is currently working with a web marketing and design firm (as consultants) and they charge us $250 a page, mostly HTML programming, Flash as an option, extra toys cost extra (that is, dynamic pages, database, file and rank etc). Keep in mind, they are an established firm doing a full service web-site design. (our site is not an Arch-firm site)
Medit -
Try www.webmonkey.com for tutorials.
Tectonic -
Since it sounds like you're just starting out you might want to charge a flat fee for the design. You'll be hard pressed to defend the hourly fee when you're tooling around trying to figure things out. Plus, it's a pain to keep up with quarter hour increments.
Have them register the domain and hosting unless you want to contact them every year for renewal.
www.godaddy.com I register domains with these guys
www.icdsoft.com I host with these guys
However you could host & register the domain with just one so it is less confusing. In fact, just do it that way.
Get an idea of how in depth the site will be and base your flat fee off that. If it's small like contact info, etc. then charge $500-750 and include any minor changes or copy updates for one year. If it's a more in depth site (including flash) charge $1000-$2500 and include minor changes for a year.
Flash is a pandora's box that you may not want to open up to your client. It's easier to talk them out of it than have them look over your shoulder coaching along the animation.
Have them provide copy digitally. You do not want to spend your time writing or trying to communicate their goals, etc. Trust me. Plus, this removes a liability from you.
Friends of Ed write good books on HTML, Flash, etc. Check them out.
Hope this helps
If you really want to learn web design, and learn some skills that are at the forefront of standards compatability, start learning XHTML and full CSS layout, aka NO TABLES.
Tables were never meant for web layout. They were meant for displaying rows of data (think Excel).
Using a single external CSS stylesheet, you can control the entire layout, positioning, text style (which CSS has long been used for), and placement of graphical elements throughout the entire site. Changing the font for a particular section means you only change it in one section and it populates the rest of the site. Download times are reduced because each HTML page is simplified.
You will see it referred to frequently as "Seperation of Content and Presentation." Your HTML pages contain your content, much in the same look as a Word file. Your CSS page contains the presentation aspects.
To get a look at some things related to creating sites this way:
http://www.csszengarden.com/
Zen Garden is a very good site. The gist of it is that people download the CSS and HTML, and make changes only to the CSS page to change the look of the site. Go through the various designs and you will get a good idea of how it works.
There's tons to learn and it's probably not that easy if you are totally new to this stuff, but good luck.
kix
Is registering their website something that the client may just have to deal with wether they want to or not? Because it sounds like otherwise I would need to contact him once a year to renew and I would rather stay away from that.
Also, I think you are absolutely right; I'm going to stay away from Flash (it is a pandoras box). Thank you for the great info on fees.
aaronUF,
At my office we had a graphic designer charge us $400/page and she has been working on 5 pages for the last two months. Obviously she's not very good. But I wonder if I can get away with charging $300/page for HTML no flash.
Manteno_Montenegro,
Thank you.
I prefer to have the client register the site. Back in the golden .com days designers would do everything and mark it up but clients are more savvy now. I still have a couple of clients that I have to call every year and bill for renewing their stuff; that just sucks.
After you've sealed the deal on designing the site, sit down with them in their office (with their credit card) and register the site and hosting. This way they fill out all the info and you are just sheparding them along.
Another downside to registering it yourself is that you'll get a ton of junk mail since your address, etc. is the official information for the site. That sucks, too.
Good luck with it.
Kix,
Do you have any advise on puting together a proposal?
tectonic - i would suggest first learning how to properly create a website before concerning yourself with standard pricing procedures. becoming a professional web designer (charging clients for your work) is much more complicated than going through a few online tutorials or reading a book on HTML. it usually takes years of practice and learning to create a professional website. work on personal websites or make websites for your friends/family for free to get some experience before attempting to tackle a real client project.
i don't agree with the "per page" pricing method... that's akin to an architect charging a client per floor. there are many other variables to take into consideration when pricing a web design project. once you have sufficient experience with web development you will be able to assess a clients needs and expectations to determine the effort that is required to properly complete the project. standard procedure to pricing a project is to combine a time estimate with a variation of skill requirements and project liability. to learn more about pricing i highly recommend picking up a copy of Graphic Artists Guild Handbook.
i also agree with paul regarding the "per page" method. each clients needs are different and must be addressed specifically, and all pages are not equally as simple or complex.
I am sure graphic designers love architects pretending to do web design about as much as architects like contractors pretending to do house design. Just because you have Dreamworks (or weaver) doesnt mean you are qualified to make a website.
If architects want our profession to be respected we should respect others, at the very least you might want to partner with someone who knows a bit more about the biz...
I break mine up into three sections:
1) Page (or two) to address the client's needs. This is a bullet list with short descriptions of what the site will consist of. Maybe a diagram of the site for those visual thinkers out there. Don't get too in depth because you don't want them taking your diagram and giving it to someone who they'll pay less to implement it.
2) Prints of existing sites of competitors. Pick three companies that have sites and are in the same business as your client. Select three site designs: the best site design, middle of the road, and the worst site design in the history of man (I'm talking broken links, bad graphics, etc.) Arrange them in the proposal in that order. Your client will see the best first and by the time they see the bad design they'll understand why to pay you instead of a kid in middle school who wants to do it for a class project. Then you hit them with the price.
3) Restate everything from the first page with a price next to it. It could be just a bottom line total.
Of course you want all of this to be in your own proposal frame work not just a bunch of pages out of Word and prints from a website. Make it a package.
I also agree that the per page is not the way to go. It's not applicable, unless you are dong a boring html site where everything is essentially the say, just with different blurbs of text.
Like most things, you do one, keep track of the hours, then next time charge what you want based on a reasonable $/hr x the time it took. As you get faster, you can charge more.
Lastly, learn about the design aspects of it. Bad web design is not just about poor knowledge of the tools, it's about bad design. Study good graphic design, study good websites, and practice.
Paul,
You are right I do need to properly put a website together, no doubt. On the other hand he needs my service and I need the money. He is aware that I don't have much experience but he is willing to both give me a chance and pay me for it. I certainly don't claim to be a great web designer but I do feel capable of puting together a website that functions, pragamtically anyhow. I will purchase Graphic Artists Guild Handbook: Pricing & Ethical Guidelines, it looks like a very helpful book.
Kix,
Thank you very much again for your brakedown. Great info, how can I manage payments? In quarters, 50% upfront than 50% once it's running. I guess that at this point it could be an infinity of different options. Thanks again for your input.
trace,
Because my knowledge is so limited I'm hoping that by keeping the site as simple as possible I will be able to have a simple but sophisticated graphic layout. So that while there won't be any flash ther will be very carefully layed out graphics. But, regardless I do as you say need to study good graphic design and practice it.
I don't plan to make a living from it. But if someone is willing to pay for my learning why not take the opportunity?
I ask 50% up front (net 15 or 30), and 50% due the day the site goes live.
Excellent. This give me a very good start, I actually have a meeting today at 5pm PST to discuss the proposal (which I haven't done, but now able to, thanks to all of your inputs) and hopefully he'll get a good vibe from me and feel comfortable collaborating. ARCHINECTORS YA'LL CAME THRU. THANK YOU.
thanks all for all those tips and links!
good luck!
25% due up front, 50% due at 50% of time quote (based on your original time quote), 75% due at 75% of time quote, 100% due 1 month after website broadcast. (standard invoicing?)
depending on the size of the job i bill as follows >>
small jobs, 7k and less: 50% up front, 50% on completion
medium jobs, 7-30k: i bill in thirds: 33% up front, 33% when half complete, and 33% on completion.
large jobs, over 30k: i bill in quarters.
terms: 30 days.
this is by no means a hard rule. each client is unique, and i will be flexible if needed. that said, i have never had a client complain of my billing structure.
Like most of the people on this post, I charge 50% at the begining and the other 50% when the site is done.
I specialized in Flash websites. When a project comes from scratch I bill on a project basis, and when is just to upgrade an existing site I charge per hour.
To give you a rough idea, a 5 pages flash website will cost you around $3000 and I have an hourly rate of $125 per upgrading an existing site.
Tectonic: Good luck in this adventure. What doesn't make any sense is that you are asking how much to charge for a website when you dodn't know how to build one.
Learn how to walk before start runing!!!
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