Hate to start it, but I want to know: what are the downsides (if any, in your opinion) of using a Mac instead of a PC, for both during school and during real-life work?
pc: compatible with all the architecture programs you already know, can be cheaper, but not if your are buying a really powerful machine, then its the same. not very pretty. everyone has one. prone to viruses if you're not careful.
mac: generally more $, prettier, the i-life programs are awesome, few, if any, of the standard architecture programs you know will run on it, i hear its difficult to get tech support sometimes.
i have been debating about getting a mac or pc laptop and until today i was convinced that i was going to get an ibook since they just upgraded them (you can now get them with superdrives, more ram, and faster processors, relatively inexpensive, and they look awesome). But i saw on the laptop site the link to the hp laptops, which are cheap, look pretty good, and have everything i want. Plus i can go on tour with my band and take the laptop and pump autoCAD while i'm gone so that i dont get fired for taking so much time off. i really wanted the ibook, but i am gonna go with the hp.
So here's a question: Architosh boasts that about one-third of architects/firms use Macs (I read it somewhere on there; can't find the reference right now). Does anyone here on Archinect use Macs? I get the feeling most folks here are PC'ers.
I use a Mac. I always have, and see no reason to change. There is no current version of ACAD, but you can get around that.
Doug, why do you say it is diffucult to get tech support? In all my years I have never needed to call in for tech support. My parents had a Apple CRT that blew, and my girl had a logic board that died. Both were replaced, no problems. For comparison, my friend had an Alienware laptop, that he sent in two times for serious repair, all within the first week he owned it. He traded that shit in for an HP. Just my experience, YRMV.
Up until the current place I work I've always used Mac's and have a aluminium powerbook G4 at home. If you have to use autocad then a PC is best - but do you really want to us autocad.
Tech support is excellent. Quality, design and both excellent.
Not only the range of software is much much bigger for the PC community, the resources available are majorly directed to PC users [filetypes, etc....].
Another good is the ability to switch OS, having Linux as an excellent opensource example. Powerful, robust and with a rapidly growing number of users and applications.
It's not that I dislike Macs. It's just the fact that their architecture in relation to modularity and operating system is quite strict.
as i said, i have only heard that tech support with apple can be a nightmare. Of course, i've heard stories about pc's too, but i have heard more good than bad with pc's. If you've had great experience with macs, then that is encouraging and people should listen to you rather than me, i am just going off hearsay.
Officially, i am not on either side of the mac vs. pc debate... i have worked on both and they are great systems. i really really want to get a mac, but a pc is just a little more appropriate for my situation right now.
i own both a Mac [g3b&w] and a PC [monster] and recently bought myself a PowerBook12" and I have to say: Last time I never find myself switchin' on the powerbutton of the PC.. For I've got VectorWorks, Maya, Illustrator and Photoshop runnin' on my laptop and it's all workin' awasome on OSX.
I have found that younger/smaller design firms tend to gravitate to MAC over PC, not sure why this is? I have also found that Mac's have much different drawing programs than standard PC Autocad - vectorworks, archi-cad etc etc. I have worked on both a MAC and a PC I think that Autocad is better than anything being used on a Mac, albeit, I am biased. Also, being that a large percentage of consultants and/or engineers that I have worked with on projects are on Autocad based systems I have never had any trouble with their drawings/files. However, when working on a Mac I had to go through this huge translating process to get the CAD drawings into archicad and had to do it all over again when sending our drawings out, a pain to say the least. but the MAc is nice looking and most other design disciplines, such as graphic and ID tend to swear to them only. ?
Speaking of AutoCAD files on the Mac, does anyone have any experience with AutoCAD using VirtualPC? I got AutoCAD 2004 running on Windows 2000 on VPC on a 400MHz G4 with 512MB RAM. Slow, for sure, but it was possible. Others say that it works OK (on more powerful Mac systems, to which I would probably be updating), but if you need to spend a lot of time drafting in AutoCAD, get a PC. Fair advice?
even with the fastest of macs, virtualPC is so slow you'll save time learning powerCADD.
I worked on a mac for a while, but I got tired of making concessions (not using autoCAD, not using 3ds max, not using rhino, loosing lots of functions with maya...) so I switched. and now I wonder what advantages there are to having a mac? with a good graphics card and a monitor, your pc can output as well, adobe's stuff works well with pcs... I really can't think of a reason other than the flash factor.
Thanks for the postings, folks. I appreciate it. Although nothing is making my decision any easier! ;)
Anyhow, I have this plan where I buy a Mac laptop for the beginning's of my studies (because I like Macs way more after four years working in newspapers and graphic design), and then as I get along near the end of my studies, I'll build a spankin' PC desktop workstation for when I need to do the heavy-duty work.
I, like Hasselhoff in this post, will be starting grad school in the fall and want something powerful and reliable for those long, arduous days of study.
if you are going to spend the money, get the machine you want to buy. if you are a mac lover, then be happy with your mac and make use of the computer lab for rhino and autocad - which you can no longer ignore as software anymore.
if you really want to buy a machine that you will most likely use in architecture and especially for cnc output and / or modelling then you should really just get a pc.
the downsides for the mac are that there is simply not enough software support, especially autocad and rhino, which have become the gold standard for cnc output and high end nurbs modelling.
adobe products, form-z, vectorworks, and maya work well on the mac, so it is a safe choice as a good all around machine. i love my mac and will most likely always have one as my main computer, but i have become bi-platform as there has simply proven way too many benefits to the software support system for the pc in architectural applications.
if you are interested in more current graphic design applications, you will be fine with only the mac, as the mac is perfect for the macromedia director and cinema 4d combination that is starting to shake things up. see the yale graphic design website for some examples of director's 3d modelling interface being used in conjunction with cinema 4d...pretty inspiring stuff...
I have both and have used both nearly daily for 10 years. Both have great features. Currently I tend to do most of my architecture work on my PC laptop and leave all internet related and non-architecture (music, filesharing, etc) stuff on my mac. But I also worked for 4 years in an office that only used macs. Sometimes dwg transfers were a pain but most of the time it didn't matter. And now that I work in autocad I have to say that I would love to go back to the mac. Despite using Acad 2004 I feel like I'm running something ancient. Most mac software is simple, clean, and does the job. Most windows software is bloated, ugly, and complicated. This is a huge generalization, i know.
On the other hand, I love rhino and couldn't give it up. I could do most of the same things between formZ and Maya on my mac, but rhino is just easier.
As for the comments above about viruses, etc. It's true. I try to limit the amount of internet time I spend on my PC. The vast majority of viruses, worms, etc are written for PCs. As a test, I spent one night using a file sharing app on my PC. That was 8 months ago and I still haven't managed to get rid of all the spyware that was installed on my machine. I've never had any security problems on my mac.
Zeiban, your plan sounds good to me. When you enter school you should use the tools you know and then develop new tools as you see fit.
aKa, I believe there is a great plug-in for C4D for importing and live updating from vectorworks. Check out the maxon site for details.
I like the idea of being bi-platform... Use the best tool for the job, I guess. No one has really commented on my "plan" until now, Israel, so thank you for affirming that. I'm still gathering info, though, but that PowerBook is looking tastier and tastier... This old TiBook of mine is reaching the end of its legs.
When you are making the decision to get a Mac or a PC - you are really making two decisions.
firstly, the actual machine - which machine is better for me? and secondly, the operating system - which operating system will best suit my needs?
The Machine - along with choosing the kind of processor and speed and amount of memory and ram, you must bare in mind the overall architecture and design of the machine. The chip/processor is the most significant factor determining speed of system - obviously also the way in which the technologies are packaged and thier wquality will determine the performance and usibility of the machine.
Motorola - G4 chip - used in all apple laptops - when it came out it was phenomenal - however that was almost 5 years ago - and although the P4 has been around for almost the same time -it has managed large increases in clock spped in that time and the G4 has not yeilded such batches. there has been a long frusterating wait for a new chip and the fabled g5 was expected well before it arrived (2002). apple ditched motorola for IBM with the g5 - i wonder what Motorola has in the pipeline - becuase they spent a bloody long time developing with no results - so i dont know where all that research went? - there has been an alliance between Apple/IBM/Motorola since 1991.
-IBM - 64 PowerPC chip - this processor simnpily rocks - it is the processor used for the new macintosh desktop lineup - it is the fastest ship going around at the moment.
-Intel - Intel makes good chips - the pentium 4 processor has been the best performer for many years and you cant go wrong with intel - the next generation - prescot is not living up to hopes right now. Their G5 equivilent = Xeon rocks - but cant compete with g5.
-AMD - Athlon 64 - athon is AMDs flagship - they recently released the 64 bit version - just before g5 i think - and it is quality for money - performs against Xeon and g5 - in fact ive read tests that pip it neck to neck with the g5 ? .
now you get to choose a manufacturer - Apple, IBM, HP, Dell.
You could go any of these companies - i would steer away from the cheaper offerings as they generally will cause you more problems in the long run.
If your getting a desktop machine - get a dual G5 - it will keep you happy for many years. If your getting a laptop - get an 12inch ibook- value for money this is awesome (and the money you save spend on an iPOD). you will probably be waiting for another year to see a g5 in a laptop.
The Operating System (OS) - this is the system software that all applications run on. realistically Windows and Mac are are your only options - but below ive put that in perspective.
UNIX - unix was created in the 60s by AT&T bell labs - and spread to research universities where it was developed further - University of california released a version of UNIX called the Berkely Software Distribution (BSD) - or BSD UNIX. there are a few free versions of BSD Unix - they are free BSD, Open BSD, net BSD. Mac OS is a reletive of these - cousin i think. And linux was also developed as a kind of UNIx clone - they are all very similar. solaris also i think is unix based? i dunno. but the great thing about this is that software is easily ported between all these opertaing systems - so basically - it is very cheap and easy for companies that currently make software for Mac OSX (currently the only unixlike OS that is worth making professional software for - like photoshop, maya, archicad ) to make it for linux. SCO which bought the rights to UNIX and being backed by micrsoft is currently trying to sue everyone who uses linux claiming that it breaches copywrite. they will lose the case - but it is unfortuante that the fate UNIX has fallen into such shameless depraved hands.
Mac OS X - BSD UNIX with a pretty face - BSD would most probably be more popular than linux now and we would never had heard on linus torvalds if BSD wasnt involved in legal disputes that tied up the OS for years whilst Linux got on with developing and filled its vacant position. Mac is the most advanced OS that exists right now - however due to the fact that it has to communicate with a windows dominated world causes some problems in networking etc - if you are wanting to connect up your laptop to a school server or work server you will probably have issues. Mac are incredibly easy to network and plug into existing windows networks easily on the mac end - but on the windows end you may have trouble recognising a mac. There is a huge UNIX comunity out there now making software for mac - but porting software is expensive for larger companies - and there are not enough archi firms using mac to justify a port - this is also due to fact the mac processors have been behind the game for a couple of years. this has allk changed however with the G5 - so maybe this will be incentive for firms to switch. The mac OSX is very solid - losing data is a thing of the past - it simply will not crash no matter what you do to it / Also you need never worry about viruses again.
Linux - Based on UNIX - Not really an option right now - give it five more years. linux will without doubt dethrone windows eventually (or unix equivalent) on the desktop but currently there are no applications to actually run on linux that are of much use for an architect. It is great to support linux however - i have an old box at home running linux that i play around on and im fattening it up to become my server when i find the time. Linux is very popular in the data management sector but as a desktop OS it is still yet to mature. Linux is 'open source' which means that the code used to build it is freely available for anyone to see - and anyone can add to the code and modify it as they like for their personal use - however official 'releases' are launched to regulate and control the product. linux is very flexible in this way - and the transparency means that bugs are ironed out quickly and the software grows quickly. superheavyweights - IBM, HP and Sun have all jumped on the bandwagon (sun makes Solaris which it hopes to bring to the desktop scene in the next few years). Everyone is trying to get a piece of the pie that will inevitably open up when microsoft loses ground.Microsoft was facing some serious heat for its illegal anticompetive tactics until the Bush government arrived and diluted proceedings - however they are facing punishment in Europe which will open up more of a level playing field in which other technologies can compete - this will undoubtably be Linux.
Windows XP - windows sits all alone in the corner, it has no friends or reletives - I find it difficult to say anything good about this operating system other than the fact that it is a gazillion times better than what microsoft were offering us a few years ago. THis is not saying much however. apart from being hideously ugly and inefficient interface / system architetcure - it is riddled with old lagacy tech - being dragged along by huge customer base - anti innovative - this is an inevitable fact a being so large - microsoft are working on a complete overhaul of windows codenamed 'longhorn' - it is not due for release unfortunatly until 2006 - so we must painfully wait until then until then for improvements - however the bright side is that this opens the door for linux to really make a big impact and compete for dissatified microsoft customers. Apple managed to completely overhaul it s OS because it customer base is reletively small and cashed up. microsoft has no other option than to improve its technology but its customers base will be less forgiving.
i wasted far too many years using a windows machine until i discovered the beauty of mac - once you have used OSX you will find XP intolerable. it seems like your stepping back in time 10 years when hop on XP from OSX - windows is simply inferior technology and interface design - Its going to be interesting to see what happens in the next 18 months regaring 64bit OS capabilities/software support. Mac CAD software is generally alot cleaner - but lacks functionality of ugly old things like autodesk and microstation -
and there is no incentive to switch to a mac if you cannot even use these two most popular CAD software packages. Im not a big fan of archicad - but realistically it is the only capable CAD program that is viable for the mac - and as long as you cannot get decent CAD apps for mac i will still have to use a PC for my drafting as will the majority of the CAD related industry. mac does however have excellent graphics and design and 3d support - in fact i would go as far to say that if you are in these fields you would be foolish to settle for anything other than a mac.
Below is software that an architect might use;
Autodesk AutoCAD / Viz / 3d Studio - (PC)
Microstation - (PC)
ArchiCAD - (PC)(MAC)
Adobe Creative Suite - (PC)(MAC)
Macromedia MX Suite - (PC)(MAC)
Microsoft Office - (PC)(MAC)
Maya - (PC)(MAC)
Lightwave - (PC)(MAC)
Cinema 4D - (PC)(MAC)
FormZ - (PC)(MAC)
Rhino - (PC)
there are absolutely no cross platform issues between OSX and XP regarding file type recognition and reading etc - The same standards exist.
If you want to transport 3D data amongst CAD apps - use DWG
If you want to transport 3D data amongst other apps - use DXF / OBJ
If you want to transport 2D data use EPS
Export / present everything as PDF and you cant go wrong.
Transporting image files - use JPG, TGA
For the web - use JPG, GIF
I have used pcs for years - i have a pc workstation (p4) and a mac laptop (g4) that i just bought 6 months ago. As soon as i can afford it im gonna bite the bullet and switch entirely to MAc and buy a Dual G5 - i have been weaning myself off PC for a year - you will likely have to go through a 'transition' period if you have spent money on PC software/ training - but you can easily buy / sell / crack software on the net so it is really not that big of an issue.
doug - i find it hard to believe that apple tech support is a nightmare - apples mantra is ease up use - i think the point is that you barely need tech support for mac - a mac system basically supports itself. if you want to create a network of macs - you simply plug them together - presto! you may be hearing about old networks / systems running the old operating system OS9 that is barely support now - the fact that macs last so long means that people use them for years past their 'used by date'.
webb - "losing lots of functions with maya" - Wha?!?
Doug - I just don't see any point in posting hearsay. If you have no experience, just say that and leave it at that.
Israel - I wonder how many people in the profession actually require high end nurbs modeling and CNC output? I don't think you could argue that Rhino is the 'gold standard' for generalized architectural 3D modeling.
Both PC's/Mac's have their own set of pros and cons. Test them, and find out for yourself.
The Xeon chip can compete with the G5 actually. When Apple released it they -wrongly- claimed it was the fastest chip available on the market. One thing to remember is that they had disabled the hyperthreading facilty in XP when they conducted the benchmark tests with the Xeon chip. The result was a greatly reduced speed and performance of the Xeon chip which is actually quite clever in the way it works. Apple were consequently forced to withdraw that statement.
see where this debate becomes tiresome is when you begin to relie on specific software to do you job.
As israel pointed out rhino and autocad are become a great combination for 3d/2d work and accurate information for various form of prototyping/manfacturing. However it is completely possible to still produce the same work using other software and other operating sytems and machines.
Remember the beginning of any process using a computer begins with the user. the more the user the knows the more that can be produces and accomplished.
as i joked before about my ford pick up(which i dont own) its a reference to the age old redneck discussion over the better truck...whenin reality there isnt much difference except the redneck behind the wheel.
I've produced work to be milled by a cnc machine on both pc's and macs
I've had models produced by stereolithography by both pc's and mac's
I've seen buildings I've design be built from drawings drawn on pc's and macs
Ram, processors etc... mean nothing if your Kung Fu isnt tight
a good old friend of mine used to joke that if he had to he could design a building using microsoft word...and my guess is that he probably could, since he knew his tools inside and out.
so Zeibin when you get to the point where your ready to kick down the cash for your machine, spend some time actually learning how to use it, instead of memorizing the specs and knowing what the hottest software of the moment is, because it doesnt matter.
I'm still running my first generation G4 with a mere 400ghz processor and I can make it do anything I want.
I think one thing you need to ask, if you are heading to school, is what does the school use? Some schools are exclusively PC, some are mainly PC but some MAC, but I don't think any are exclusively MAC. From what I know, Penn is all PC. You can download all the software you need off of the network. If you had a MAC, you would need to scrounge up the software somewhere (buy, pirate, something). So probably something really important to do would be contact the school's computer dudes and ask them how easily you can integrate a MAC into thier system.
That's the difficult part. The school I'm going to (UBC) is now making everyone purchase their own computers (which is fine since I was looking for an excuse to buy a new one anyway), and they fully support both platforms (but of course, they have fairly little in the way of vast computing resources, and what's there is predominantly PC). They explicitly say that either platform will be excellent as long as you meet their minimum specs. You can also pick off software from the network, and the only piece they have that isn't supported on Mac is AutoCAD. So, no wins there (except for the AutoCAD difference; let's call it PC:1 Mac:0, just to be really fair).
When I priced things out, low-end PCs are cheap, for sure. But a high-end PC laptop that meets their specs actually runs more expensive than a comparatively decked out Mac. I didn't look everywhere (Dell, Alienware, etc), though, but since I needed to stick with places with good 3-year warranties, PC:1 Mac:1.
If I really wanted to factor in operating system, I think OSX wins, hand down: PC:1 Mac:2.
I'm up to speed on all the specs, so I understand all the background behind various architectures (megahertz myths, pipelining, vector processing, bus speeds, etc; that Engineering Physics degree comes in handy sometimes ;). True enough, an appropriately tuned system (G4 400) can keep up if need be. Faster hard drive, scads of RAM, maybe a nice high-end graphics card - all would extend an old-school Mac's life. As a biased Mac user, performance comes out even between the two because both architectures excel at different things.
Anyway, the best idea seems to be to (1) use what you like and are comfortable with, especially during school, (2) use the tools you need to do the job, regardless of platform, and (3) do well by making the most of what you have.
Which means I need to get back to tightening my kung fu. Thanks for the help, y'all.
But feel free to continue on. If you get this out of the way in nice comprehensive format, you'll never have to do it again the next time someone asks...
im looking to build a new computer for myself - is the athlon 64 bit chip good??? for mainly 3d apps, CAd (of course) and stuff like photoshop - stuff that we all use regualry???
ive been trying to get reviews of these chips for a while, but can find nothing online - can anyone point to some good site for a comparision of a Xeon and the 64 bit athlon for graphics purposes???
I know quite a few architects in our city, Raleigh, that use macs exclusivley. Although some schools demand that you use a PC, you may be able to swing it with a Mac. I'm at the NCSU design school where my professors scream about getting those damn Dells, I've been doing just great with my MAC. Yeah, I have to go the extra distance every now and again to keep up but its a small price to pay then to deal with all the XP OS issues. Funny thing is that although our school is more PC based, our IT department is mostly hard core Mac users. The computers that keep our school network running are mostly Apple computers.
The reasons that there are so few Macs on our campuses are mostly political than anything else. I used to work for Apple on our campus and I can tell you that decisions made in regard to computer choice are not all done in best interest of the student body.Dell or HP come in and say, hey ncsu, we will give you 20 free computers for your new computer lab, printers too, all you have to do is buy all these software licenses and sign up for tech support. When most people hear 20 free computers, you know what choice they are going to make. It may seem like great deal but it often costs staggering amount of money to keep those machines running. At Emory University, it took like 3 full-time IT guys to keep one of their networks running, after they switched to BSD Unix based Macs, they have only ONE part-time person that maintains the network. Its all politics. Its really sad that our computing decisions are made in that way. I quit my job because I was way overworked and underpaid. Architects have it really good in comparison. One thing you find about Macs is that people that work with them have a lot of heart. Any problems you have you'll get help on or get pointed into the right direction. Apple has something like 3 or 4% market share in the real world, and that makes for a very close and tight community.
As for costumer service, Apple and Dell both got the highest scores, both got A's, in a latest reviews.
Lastly, let me tell you something about why Apple seems to be more expensive. First, don't think of Apple as K-Mart of PC's, like Dell, where price is the bottom line. Think of Apple as Louis Vuitton of PC's, you get what you pay for. Apples core costumers are intelligent and affluent. That is why you will not see Apple offering anything dirt cheap. What people don't understand, and this really bugs me, that Apple is not worried about worried about price point so much. Thats not what they are selling. Every new PowerBook has bluetooth, every iMac has FULLSIZE Firewire ports and USB ports. Apple computers only seem more expensive because, unlike Dell or others, they don't cut corners in what you get. When you get a cheap Dell, you're not getting the latest and greatest, you will have to upgrade stuff later down the line, with an Apple you are. They may seem more expensive, in reality they are very comparable in price. Plus as a designer I'm really sick of those beige boxes =)
I looked into this situation very carefully in archinect.
screen names , which start with; c, d, e, f, h, i, l, n, o, q, s, t, w use pc.
names starting with; a, b, j, k, m, p, u, x, z use mac.
g, r, v, y are usually sitting on the fence.
if your name does not agree with my research, you are an exception.
*every mac vs. pc post deserves a smartass like me.
It's really a matter of what you're used to. I love the way the macs look, but, I can only commit to a pc.
However, when designing interiors, I usually use macs. For example, I'm designing a friends boutique. He'll be using an apple at the counter, because it's just so damn pretty.
I recently added this in another thread, but something to consider as well is how many people will be available to help you with your mac vs. PC. I started out with a G4 in architecture school after having used both macs & pcs for word processing and the like in the past. I found it very easy to use, ran the programs well, etc. At that time design wasn't really an issue, but it did cost more than a comparable PC. I was also using it for video editing and the spftware etc. seemed more geared to mac. Over time I've ended up abandoning the Mac and switching to PC for a variety of reasons: I'm very attached to Autocad (though I wasn't when I switched over), upgrading is less expensive and easier (memory, graphics cards, usb ports, etc.), crashes way less than my mac did (though that was back with OS8 I think so maybe that's a moot point now), plays games that my husband likes (almost nothing comes out in mac versions), and most importantly for me, there are a lot more people around who know how to fix them, network them, do whatever it is you need to do to keep it running. Even I am able to open the computer and add cards, plug in new peripherals, etc., and it never really dies in a way that we can't figure out how to start it again(though we did have to replace the hard drive at one point...) I sometimes pine for the style of the mac, and thick about trying out OSX, but I just don't think it'll happen unless I've got extra cash to throw around someday. To make a long story short - I'm no longer using the mac I bought while in school, while we are still using the pc my husband bought as well as a pc laptop we had sitting around.
Jun 15, 04 5:05 pm ·
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Mac vs PC (sorry...)
Hate to start it, but I want to know: what are the downsides (if any, in your opinion) of using a Mac instead of a PC, for both during school and during real-life work?
Let the flaming begin?
Thanks in advance, peoples.
Ooo, this should be fun.
PC : cheaper, 3D Studio, Autocad. That's enough for me.
Max : Pretty.
They make WAY MORE and vastly superior videogames for the PC.
pc: compatible with all the architecture programs you already know, can be cheaper, but not if your are buying a really powerful machine, then its the same. not very pretty. everyone has one. prone to viruses if you're not careful.
mac: generally more $, prettier, the i-life programs are awesome, few, if any, of the standard architecture programs you know will run on it, i hear its difficult to get tech support sometimes.
i have been debating about getting a mac or pc laptop and until today i was convinced that i was going to get an ibook since they just upgraded them (you can now get them with superdrives, more ram, and faster processors, relatively inexpensive, and they look awesome). But i saw on the laptop site the link to the hp laptops, which are cheap, look pretty good, and have everything i want. Plus i can go on tour with my band and take the laptop and pump autoCAD while i'm gone so that i dont get fired for taking so much time off. i really wanted the ibook, but i am gonna go with the hp.
So here's a question: Architosh boasts that about one-third of architects/firms use Macs (I read it somewhere on there; can't find the reference right now). Does anyone here on Archinect use Macs? I get the feeling most folks here are PC'ers.
I use a Mac. I always have, and see no reason to change. There is no current version of ACAD, but you can get around that.
Doug, why do you say it is diffucult to get tech support? In all my years I have never needed to call in for tech support. My parents had a Apple CRT that blew, and my girl had a logic board that died. Both were replaced, no problems. For comparison, my friend had an Alienware laptop, that he sent in two times for serious repair, all within the first week he owned it. He traded that shit in for an HP. Just my experience, YRMV.
I can only agree with Appleseed.
Up until the current place I work I've always used Mac's and have a aluminium powerbook G4 at home. If you have to use autocad then a PC is best - but do you really want to us autocad.
Tech support is excellent. Quality, design and both excellent.
Not only the range of software is much much bigger for the PC community, the resources available are majorly directed to PC users [filetypes, etc....].
Another good is the ability to switch OS, having Linux as an excellent opensource example. Powerful, robust and with a rapidly growing number of users and applications.
It's not that I dislike Macs. It's just the fact that their architecture in relation to modularity and operating system is quite strict.
Anarchitect
What 'common' filetypes are not cross platfrom?
DOC, EPS, PDF, DWG?
Oh and Mac OS X in unix based
as i said, i have only heard that tech support with apple can be a nightmare. Of course, i've heard stories about pc's too, but i have heard more good than bad with pc's. If you've had great experience with macs, then that is encouraging and people should listen to you rather than me, i am just going off hearsay.
Officially, i am not on either side of the mac vs. pc debate... i have worked on both and they are great systems. i really really want to get a mac, but a pc is just a little more appropriate for my situation right now.
i own both a Mac [g3b&w] and a PC [monster] and recently bought myself a PowerBook12" and I have to say: Last time I never find myself switchin' on the powerbutton of the PC.. For I've got VectorWorks, Maya, Illustrator and Photoshop runnin' on my laptop and it's all workin' awasome on OSX.
I have found that younger/smaller design firms tend to gravitate to MAC over PC, not sure why this is? I have also found that Mac's have much different drawing programs than standard PC Autocad - vectorworks, archi-cad etc etc. I have worked on both a MAC and a PC I think that Autocad is better than anything being used on a Mac, albeit, I am biased. Also, being that a large percentage of consultants and/or engineers that I have worked with on projects are on Autocad based systems I have never had any trouble with their drawings/files. However, when working on a Mac I had to go through this huge translating process to get the CAD drawings into archicad and had to do it all over again when sending our drawings out, a pain to say the least. but the MAc is nice looking and most other design disciplines, such as graphic and ID tend to swear to them only. ?
Speaking of AutoCAD files on the Mac, does anyone have any experience with AutoCAD using VirtualPC? I got AutoCAD 2004 running on Windows 2000 on VPC on a 400MHz G4 with 512MB RAM. Slow, for sure, but it was possible. Others say that it works OK (on more powerful Mac systems, to which I would probably be updating), but if you need to spend a lot of time drafting in AutoCAD, get a PC. Fair advice?
even with the fastest of macs, virtualPC is so slow you'll save time learning powerCADD.
I worked on a mac for a while, but I got tired of making concessions (not using autoCAD, not using 3ds max, not using rhino, loosing lots of functions with maya...) so I switched. and now I wonder what advantages there are to having a mac? with a good graphics card and a monitor, your pc can output as well, adobe's stuff works well with pcs... I really can't think of a reason other than the flash factor.
I drive ford pick up with a calvin cartoon pissing on a dodge
mac: you can click on most virus mails ... they just don't work on mac. many pc users i know complain about their infected PC.
i'm a mac user ... but i would love to work on max and autocad too, instead i work on vectorworks and cinema 4D.
Thanks for the postings, folks. I appreciate it. Although nothing is making my decision any easier! ;)
Anyhow, I have this plan where I buy a Mac laptop for the beginning's of my studies (because I like Macs way more after four years working in newspapers and graphic design), and then as I get along near the end of my studies, I'll build a spankin' PC desktop workstation for when I need to do the heavy-duty work.
I, like Hasselhoff in this post, will be starting grad school in the fall and want something powerful and reliable for those long, arduous days of study.
danda -how is the file trnasfer between c4d and vw..is there alot of extra triangulation etc...
if you are going to spend the money, get the machine you want to buy. if you are a mac lover, then be happy with your mac and make use of the computer lab for rhino and autocad - which you can no longer ignore as software anymore.
if you really want to buy a machine that you will most likely use in architecture and especially for cnc output and / or modelling then you should really just get a pc.
the downsides for the mac are that there is simply not enough software support, especially autocad and rhino, which have become the gold standard for cnc output and high end nurbs modelling.
adobe products, form-z, vectorworks, and maya work well on the mac, so it is a safe choice as a good all around machine. i love my mac and will most likely always have one as my main computer, but i have become bi-platform as there has simply proven way too many benefits to the software support system for the pc in architectural applications.
if you are interested in more current graphic design applications, you will be fine with only the mac, as the mac is perfect for the macromedia director and cinema 4d combination that is starting to shake things up. see the yale graphic design website for some examples of director's 3d modelling interface being used in conjunction with cinema 4d...pretty inspiring stuff...
I have both and have used both nearly daily for 10 years. Both have great features. Currently I tend to do most of my architecture work on my PC laptop and leave all internet related and non-architecture (music, filesharing, etc) stuff on my mac. But I also worked for 4 years in an office that only used macs. Sometimes dwg transfers were a pain but most of the time it didn't matter. And now that I work in autocad I have to say that I would love to go back to the mac. Despite using Acad 2004 I feel like I'm running something ancient. Most mac software is simple, clean, and does the job. Most windows software is bloated, ugly, and complicated. This is a huge generalization, i know.
On the other hand, I love rhino and couldn't give it up. I could do most of the same things between formZ and Maya on my mac, but rhino is just easier.
As for the comments above about viruses, etc. It's true. I try to limit the amount of internet time I spend on my PC. The vast majority of viruses, worms, etc are written for PCs. As a test, I spent one night using a file sharing app on my PC. That was 8 months ago and I still haven't managed to get rid of all the spyware that was installed on my machine. I've never had any security problems on my mac.
Zeiban, your plan sounds good to me. When you enter school you should use the tools you know and then develop new tools as you see fit.
aKa, I believe there is a great plug-in for C4D for importing and live updating from vectorworks. Check out the maxon site for details.
Israel, could you provide a link for the yale/c4d/director work?
I like the idea of being bi-platform... Use the best tool for the job, I guess. No one has really commented on my "plan" until now, Israel, so thank you for affirming that. I'm still gathering info, though, but that PowerBook is looking tastier and tastier... This old TiBook of mine is reaching the end of its legs.
When you are making the decision to get a Mac or a PC - you are really making two decisions.
firstly, the actual machine - which machine is better for me? and secondly, the operating system - which operating system will best suit my needs?
The Machine - along with choosing the kind of processor and speed and amount of memory and ram, you must bare in mind the overall architecture and design of the machine. The chip/processor is the most significant factor determining speed of system - obviously also the way in which the technologies are packaged and thier wquality will determine the performance and usibility of the machine.
Motorola - G4 chip - used in all apple laptops - when it came out it was phenomenal - however that was almost 5 years ago - and although the P4 has been around for almost the same time -it has managed large increases in clock spped in that time and the G4 has not yeilded such batches. there has been a long frusterating wait for a new chip and the fabled g5 was expected well before it arrived (2002). apple ditched motorola for IBM with the g5 - i wonder what Motorola has in the pipeline - becuase they spent a bloody long time developing with no results - so i dont know where all that research went? - there has been an alliance between Apple/IBM/Motorola since 1991.
-IBM - 64 PowerPC chip - this processor simnpily rocks - it is the processor used for the new macintosh desktop lineup - it is the fastest ship going around at the moment.
-Intel - Intel makes good chips - the pentium 4 processor has been the best performer for many years and you cant go wrong with intel - the next generation - prescot is not living up to hopes right now. Their G5 equivilent = Xeon rocks - but cant compete with g5.
-AMD - Athlon 64 - athon is AMDs flagship - they recently released the 64 bit version - just before g5 i think - and it is quality for money - performs against Xeon and g5 - in fact ive read tests that pip it neck to neck with the g5 ? .
now you get to choose a manufacturer - Apple, IBM, HP, Dell.
You could go any of these companies - i would steer away from the cheaper offerings as they generally will cause you more problems in the long run.
If your getting a desktop machine - get a dual G5 - it will keep you happy for many years. If your getting a laptop - get an 12inch ibook- value for money this is awesome (and the money you save spend on an iPOD). you will probably be waiting for another year to see a g5 in a laptop.
The Operating System (OS) - this is the system software that all applications run on. realistically Windows and Mac are are your only options - but below ive put that in perspective.
UNIX - unix was created in the 60s by AT&T bell labs - and spread to research universities where it was developed further - University of california released a version of UNIX called the Berkely Software Distribution (BSD) - or BSD UNIX. there are a few free versions of BSD Unix - they are free BSD, Open BSD, net BSD. Mac OS is a reletive of these - cousin i think. And linux was also developed as a kind of UNIx clone - they are all very similar. solaris also i think is unix based? i dunno. but the great thing about this is that software is easily ported between all these opertaing systems - so basically - it is very cheap and easy for companies that currently make software for Mac OSX (currently the only unixlike OS that is worth making professional software for - like photoshop, maya, archicad ) to make it for linux. SCO which bought the rights to UNIX and being backed by micrsoft is currently trying to sue everyone who uses linux claiming that it breaches copywrite. they will lose the case - but it is unfortuante that the fate UNIX has fallen into such shameless depraved hands.
Mac OS X - BSD UNIX with a pretty face - BSD would most probably be more popular than linux now and we would never had heard on linus torvalds if BSD wasnt involved in legal disputes that tied up the OS for years whilst Linux got on with developing and filled its vacant position. Mac is the most advanced OS that exists right now - however due to the fact that it has to communicate with a windows dominated world causes some problems in networking etc - if you are wanting to connect up your laptop to a school server or work server you will probably have issues. Mac are incredibly easy to network and plug into existing windows networks easily on the mac end - but on the windows end you may have trouble recognising a mac. There is a huge UNIX comunity out there now making software for mac - but porting software is expensive for larger companies - and there are not enough archi firms using mac to justify a port - this is also due to fact the mac processors have been behind the game for a couple of years. this has allk changed however with the G5 - so maybe this will be incentive for firms to switch. The mac OSX is very solid - losing data is a thing of the past - it simply will not crash no matter what you do to it / Also you need never worry about viruses again.
Linux - Based on UNIX - Not really an option right now - give it five more years. linux will without doubt dethrone windows eventually (or unix equivalent) on the desktop but currently there are no applications to actually run on linux that are of much use for an architect. It is great to support linux however - i have an old box at home running linux that i play around on and im fattening it up to become my server when i find the time. Linux is very popular in the data management sector but as a desktop OS it is still yet to mature. Linux is 'open source' which means that the code used to build it is freely available for anyone to see - and anyone can add to the code and modify it as they like for their personal use - however official 'releases' are launched to regulate and control the product. linux is very flexible in this way - and the transparency means that bugs are ironed out quickly and the software grows quickly. superheavyweights - IBM, HP and Sun have all jumped on the bandwagon (sun makes Solaris which it hopes to bring to the desktop scene in the next few years). Everyone is trying to get a piece of the pie that will inevitably open up when microsoft loses ground.Microsoft was facing some serious heat for its illegal anticompetive tactics until the Bush government arrived and diluted proceedings - however they are facing punishment in Europe which will open up more of a level playing field in which other technologies can compete - this will undoubtably be Linux.
Windows XP - windows sits all alone in the corner, it has no friends or reletives - I find it difficult to say anything good about this operating system other than the fact that it is a gazillion times better than what microsoft were offering us a few years ago. THis is not saying much however. apart from being hideously ugly and inefficient interface / system architetcure - it is riddled with old lagacy tech - being dragged along by huge customer base - anti innovative - this is an inevitable fact a being so large - microsoft are working on a complete overhaul of windows codenamed 'longhorn' - it is not due for release unfortunatly until 2006 - so we must painfully wait until then until then for improvements - however the bright side is that this opens the door for linux to really make a big impact and compete for dissatified microsoft customers. Apple managed to completely overhaul it s OS because it customer base is reletively small and cashed up. microsoft has no other option than to improve its technology but its customers base will be less forgiving.
i wasted far too many years using a windows machine until i discovered the beauty of mac - once you have used OSX you will find XP intolerable. it seems like your stepping back in time 10 years when hop on XP from OSX - windows is simply inferior technology and interface design - Its going to be interesting to see what happens in the next 18 months regaring 64bit OS capabilities/software support. Mac CAD software is generally alot cleaner - but lacks functionality of ugly old things like autodesk and microstation -
and there is no incentive to switch to a mac if you cannot even use these two most popular CAD software packages. Im not a big fan of archicad - but realistically it is the only capable CAD program that is viable for the mac - and as long as you cannot get decent CAD apps for mac i will still have to use a PC for my drafting as will the majority of the CAD related industry. mac does however have excellent graphics and design and 3d support - in fact i would go as far to say that if you are in these fields you would be foolish to settle for anything other than a mac.
Below is software that an architect might use;
Autodesk AutoCAD / Viz / 3d Studio - (PC)
Microstation - (PC)
ArchiCAD - (PC)(MAC)
Adobe Creative Suite - (PC)(MAC)
Macromedia MX Suite - (PC)(MAC)
Microsoft Office - (PC)(MAC)
Maya - (PC)(MAC)
Lightwave - (PC)(MAC)
Cinema 4D - (PC)(MAC)
FormZ - (PC)(MAC)
Rhino - (PC)
there are absolutely no cross platform issues between OSX and XP regarding file type recognition and reading etc - The same standards exist.
If you want to transport 3D data amongst CAD apps - use DWG
If you want to transport 3D data amongst other apps - use DXF / OBJ
If you want to transport 2D data use EPS
Export / present everything as PDF and you cant go wrong.
Transporting image files - use JPG, TGA
For the web - use JPG, GIF
I have used pcs for years - i have a pc workstation (p4) and a mac laptop (g4) that i just bought 6 months ago. As soon as i can afford it im gonna bite the bullet and switch entirely to MAc and buy a Dual G5 - i have been weaning myself off PC for a year - you will likely have to go through a 'transition' period if you have spent money on PC software/ training - but you can easily buy / sell / crack software on the net so it is really not that big of an issue.
doug - i find it hard to believe that apple tech support is a nightmare - apples mantra is ease up use - i think the point is that you barely need tech support for mac - a mac system basically supports itself. if you want to create a network of macs - you simply plug them together - presto! you may be hearing about old networks / systems running the old operating system OS9 that is barely support now - the fact that macs last so long means that people use them for years past their 'used by date'.
webb - "losing lots of functions with maya" - Wha?!?
Spak's post was pretty authoritative.
Doug - I just don't see any point in posting hearsay. If you have no experience, just say that and leave it at that.
Israel - I wonder how many people in the profession actually require high end nurbs modeling and CNC output? I don't think you could argue that Rhino is the 'gold standard' for generalized architectural 3D modeling.
Both PC's/Mac's have their own set of pros and cons. Test them, and find out for yourself.
Spak - that one of the most balanced Mac/PC discussion posts I've read. I hope it helps Zeibin out
The Xeon chip can compete with the G5 actually. When Apple released it they -wrongly- claimed it was the fastest chip available on the market. One thing to remember is that they had disabled the hyperthreading facilty in XP when they conducted the benchmark tests with the Xeon chip. The result was a greatly reduced speed and performance of the Xeon chip which is actually quite clever in the way it works. Apple were consequently forced to withdraw that statement.
see where this debate becomes tiresome is when you begin to relie on specific software to do you job.
As israel pointed out rhino and autocad are become a great combination for 3d/2d work and accurate information for various form of prototyping/manfacturing. However it is completely possible to still produce the same work using other software and other operating sytems and machines.
Remember the beginning of any process using a computer begins with the user. the more the user the knows the more that can be produces and accomplished.
as i joked before about my ford pick up(which i dont own) its a reference to the age old redneck discussion over the better truck...whenin reality there isnt much difference except the redneck behind the wheel.
I've produced work to be milled by a cnc machine on both pc's and macs
I've had models produced by stereolithography by both pc's and mac's
I've seen buildings I've design be built from drawings drawn on pc's and macs
Ram, processors etc... mean nothing if your Kung Fu isnt tight
a good old friend of mine used to joke that if he had to he could design a building using microsoft word...and my guess is that he probably could, since he knew his tools inside and out.
so Zeibin when you get to the point where your ready to kick down the cash for your machine, spend some time actually learning how to use it, instead of memorizing the specs and knowing what the hottest software of the moment is, because it doesnt matter.
I'm still running my first generation G4 with a mere 400ghz processor and I can make it do anything I want.
I think one thing you need to ask, if you are heading to school, is what does the school use? Some schools are exclusively PC, some are mainly PC but some MAC, but I don't think any are exclusively MAC. From what I know, Penn is all PC. You can download all the software you need off of the network. If you had a MAC, you would need to scrounge up the software somewhere (buy, pirate, something). So probably something really important to do would be contact the school's computer dudes and ask them how easily you can integrate a MAC into thier system.
That's the difficult part. The school I'm going to (UBC) is now making everyone purchase their own computers (which is fine since I was looking for an excuse to buy a new one anyway), and they fully support both platforms (but of course, they have fairly little in the way of vast computing resources, and what's there is predominantly PC). They explicitly say that either platform will be excellent as long as you meet their minimum specs. You can also pick off software from the network, and the only piece they have that isn't supported on Mac is AutoCAD. So, no wins there (except for the AutoCAD difference; let's call it PC:1 Mac:0, just to be really fair).
When I priced things out, low-end PCs are cheap, for sure. But a high-end PC laptop that meets their specs actually runs more expensive than a comparatively decked out Mac. I didn't look everywhere (Dell, Alienware, etc), though, but since I needed to stick with places with good 3-year warranties, PC:1 Mac:1.
If I really wanted to factor in operating system, I think OSX wins, hand down: PC:1 Mac:2.
I'm up to speed on all the specs, so I understand all the background behind various architectures (megahertz myths, pipelining, vector processing, bus speeds, etc; that Engineering Physics degree comes in handy sometimes ;). True enough, an appropriately tuned system (G4 400) can keep up if need be. Faster hard drive, scads of RAM, maybe a nice high-end graphics card - all would extend an old-school Mac's life. As a biased Mac user, performance comes out even between the two because both architectures excel at different things.
Anyway, the best idea seems to be to (1) use what you like and are comfortable with, especially during school, (2) use the tools you need to do the job, regardless of platform, and (3) do well by making the most of what you have.
Which means I need to get back to tightening my kung fu. Thanks for the help, y'all.
But feel free to continue on. If you get this out of the way in nice comprehensive format, you'll never have to do it again the next time someone asks...
im looking to build a new computer for myself - is the athlon 64 bit chip good??? for mainly 3d apps, CAd (of course) and stuff like photoshop - stuff that we all use regualry???
ive been trying to get reviews of these chips for a while, but can find nothing online - can anyone point to some good site for a comparision of a Xeon and the 64 bit athlon for graphics purposes???
thanks everyone
PC ALL THE WAY!!
I know quite a few architects in our city, Raleigh, that use macs exclusivley. Although some schools demand that you use a PC, you may be able to swing it with a Mac. I'm at the NCSU design school where my professors scream about getting those damn Dells, I've been doing just great with my MAC. Yeah, I have to go the extra distance every now and again to keep up but its a small price to pay then to deal with all the XP OS issues. Funny thing is that although our school is more PC based, our IT department is mostly hard core Mac users. The computers that keep our school network running are mostly Apple computers.
The reasons that there are so few Macs on our campuses are mostly political than anything else. I used to work for Apple on our campus and I can tell you that decisions made in regard to computer choice are not all done in best interest of the student body.Dell or HP come in and say, hey ncsu, we will give you 20 free computers for your new computer lab, printers too, all you have to do is buy all these software licenses and sign up for tech support. When most people hear 20 free computers, you know what choice they are going to make. It may seem like great deal but it often costs staggering amount of money to keep those machines running. At Emory University, it took like 3 full-time IT guys to keep one of their networks running, after they switched to BSD Unix based Macs, they have only ONE part-time person that maintains the network. Its all politics. Its really sad that our computing decisions are made in that way. I quit my job because I was way overworked and underpaid. Architects have it really good in comparison. One thing you find about Macs is that people that work with them have a lot of heart. Any problems you have you'll get help on or get pointed into the right direction. Apple has something like 3 or 4% market share in the real world, and that makes for a very close and tight community.
As for costumer service, Apple and Dell both got the highest scores, both got A's, in a latest reviews.
Lastly, let me tell you something about why Apple seems to be more expensive. First, don't think of Apple as K-Mart of PC's, like Dell, where price is the bottom line. Think of Apple as Louis Vuitton of PC's, you get what you pay for. Apples core costumers are intelligent and affluent. That is why you will not see Apple offering anything dirt cheap. What people don't understand, and this really bugs me, that Apple is not worried about worried about price point so much. Thats not what they are selling. Every new PowerBook has bluetooth, every iMac has FULLSIZE Firewire ports and USB ports. Apple computers only seem more expensive because, unlike Dell or others, they don't cut corners in what you get. When you get a cheap Dell, you're not getting the latest and greatest, you will have to upgrade stuff later down the line, with an Apple you are. They may seem more expensive, in reality they are very comparable in price. Plus as a designer I'm really sick of those beige boxes =)
I looked into this situation very carefully in archinect.
screen names , which start with; c, d, e, f, h, i, l, n, o, q, s, t, w use pc.
names starting with; a, b, j, k, m, p, u, x, z use mac.
g, r, v, y are usually sitting on the fence.
if your name does not agree with my research, you are an exception.
*every mac vs. pc post deserves a smartass like me.
i use PC dude, im "M" type, but i think macs are awsome for decorating or picking up chiks at the uni
It's really a matter of what you're used to. I love the way the macs look, but, I can only commit to a pc.
However, when designing interiors, I usually use macs. For example, I'm designing a friends boutique. He'll be using an apple at the counter, because it's just so damn pretty.
I recently added this in another thread, but something to consider as well is how many people will be available to help you with your mac vs. PC. I started out with a G4 in architecture school after having used both macs & pcs for word processing and the like in the past. I found it very easy to use, ran the programs well, etc. At that time design wasn't really an issue, but it did cost more than a comparable PC. I was also using it for video editing and the spftware etc. seemed more geared to mac. Over time I've ended up abandoning the Mac and switching to PC for a variety of reasons: I'm very attached to Autocad (though I wasn't when I switched over), upgrading is less expensive and easier (memory, graphics cards, usb ports, etc.), crashes way less than my mac did (though that was back with OS8 I think so maybe that's a moot point now), plays games that my husband likes (almost nothing comes out in mac versions), and most importantly for me, there are a lot more people around who know how to fix them, network them, do whatever it is you need to do to keep it running. Even I am able to open the computer and add cards, plug in new peripherals, etc., and it never really dies in a way that we can't figure out how to start it again(though we did have to replace the hard drive at one point...) I sometimes pine for the style of the mac, and thick about trying out OSX, but I just don't think it'll happen unless I've got extra cash to throw around someday. To make a long story short - I'm no longer using the mac I bought while in school, while we are still using the pc my husband bought as well as a pc laptop we had sitting around.
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