Everyone is always complaining about how interns don't design - but what's the definition of design? Do you consider design to be only the large-scale, initial idea, and thus ignore a multitude of small decisions made everyday that are nevertheless still aspects of design? (Do you, for example, make decisions regularly on things like lights, finishes, placement - all in response to program?) Or are you all really just cad monkeys?
The question is do YOU consider yourself a "cad monkey" or an essential part of the design process? Have some faith and respect for yourself and the profession.
i did two internships. on both occassions, i didn't do autocad once.
when looking for internships i made it clear that i wasn't interested in working in autocad. you've got to present yourself in a way that will allow you to be hired to do the work that you want to do.
I'm still in school; it was just an honest question. I'm trying to get an idea of what I'm really getting myself into. All I hear is complaints and I want to know how much of it is just bitching and whether most interns consider what they do design, even if it is on a smaller scale.
I'd have to say that ericMontross's experience would be the exception, not the rule. I think you may have a very hard time securing yourself a position if you come into an interview with little experience saying, "I don't do autocad, and I want to do design." Honestly I think you would be laughed out of most interviews with that attitude. I think interns get to "help" do the things you mention, selecting fixtures and finishes, interior or exterior, but generally you're going to have to get it approved by someone else in the office.
For some of us, part of the frustration is that there is no "large-scale, intial idea..." or not one that you are a part of as an intern. Definitely not the only way it can go down, but it's probably more likely that the less experience you have, the less autonomy you have.
I don't consider what I do design. Having said that, I'm generally more of a negative person on this issue. Someone else doing the exact same thing might consider it design. I wouldn't say I'm a cad monkey either. I would say that the stuff you do in school is about 5-10% of a project.
first year of internship was pretty much cad monkey yet i got to design here and there, second year started to outgrow it. now i am my own cad monkey (meaning I design AND cad my own projects, with supervision.) i don't really get to work on the big initial ideas yet, i only get projects after the programming phase, after the "bubble diagrams" have been done and the budget established and the building footprint has even been determined. but this is still design - i can change things radically if i can justify it (and I have) - although its hard when a client has seen a concept and then i take it and develop it for them. we are both thinking "who are you?" to each other. i have asked my office for work on a project through all phases, unfortunatley it has not yet happened. but i consider what i do design for the most part, that doesn't make it easy or fun necessarily.
I don't think eric's situation is that unique. I did about 10% acad, 70% design, and 20% rendering. I also told them that design was what I wanted to do. There's a lot of luck involved, but mostly I think it depends on how you present yourself and how valuable you are to them as a designer. If you tell someone you are lightning fast and have ten years experience drafting, that's what they are going to have you do.
Right now I'm like strawbeary in that I design my own work and then have to do much of the CD's on my own. I have some techs take care of some of the detailing, but by no means can I just pawn off 100% of the CAD work and expect it to be done right. I'm not yet a principal so everything I do is looked over by someone higher than me. Often there are comments made that change some of my design ideas. It's the process. The real world isnt' college and you have to know that no design is going to be 100% yours.
Oh, and good luck finding the firm where you'll never work on CAD. I think ever well rounded intern needs CAD time. CD's are a huge part of the business. Just don't get stuck there. That's the tricky part.
last week my office had a design charette where only the interns worked together on developing the site plan and elevations for a project. they gave us a floor plan, and we did the rest. it was the first time i really was involved with schematic design since working professionally. and it wasn't like other charettes i had done in school where they seemed sort of pointless, we were expected to produce clear, presentable ideas and drawings for the client. and it was three days away from the computer!
I am working at an Interior Design firm with 0 experience. Anyway, showed the boss my portfolio and i'm designing a series theme based children's furniture (bed, chair, desk, wallpaper etc.). Don't laugh...but I find it quite enjoyable.
My experience is that people with a lack of experience ( architecture and life ) don't bring the best game to design. Not good.
But I also have seen a lot of people with lots of experience bring the same game to design ( every single time ) Not good.
It takes a comprehensive understanding and skill to resolve design issues in a rich , imaginative, effective and often adaptive manner. That's why you have to practice it in everything you do.
i'm lucky since our firm is strictly design. no CDs. so it's easy to get some design (however small) here and there even for a lowly intern such as myself. did everything from some casework stuff and have actually been quite involved in the design of competition projects. did a lot of masterplanning too.
yeah. we've been doing it for years at our firm so we've got a pretty good system of quality control regarding the final CDs. we're VERY integrated in the CD process. we constantly are coordinating and checking CDs w/ our associated firm as they do the CDs. it takes a lot of extra work but we've come to expect it and (i'm pretty sure) it's included in the scope of our work from the beginning.
we also include the documenting firm from the first meetings and such of the project so they're with us as we go through the design phases. they get a better understanding and then everyone is on the same page when it comes to doing CDs. i wish i could tell you more about the inner workings but i mostly am just drawing things and calling the other firm saying "You got it wrong!"
I'm at my first job out of school, and I have one project where I design, and a couple others where I just draw. It's a good balance for the first job.
Thanks. Of course I realize that no one is going to get their dream job straight out of school, and obviously someone has to do the CD's. But at least after six years of DESIGN education interns do design - and hopefully with the chance to do more and more later on. I, for one, did not get into architecture because I love CAD. Forgive my ignorance (naivete?)
i've bean able to design some interesting interior spaces in my year at the current place (almost 2 years out of school now). the only issue being not what gets designed, but what gets hacked down by either:
A, the client
B, the clients wife and her interior decorator friend
C, the boss
D, the budget
when there is actual design going on in the office, i am usually able to participate. it is not enough though, so i end up supplementing it in other ways on my own time.
Your right though, one of the biggest pieces of advice I got in school was to figure out how to convey the stuff that was in my head into something anyone could understand. Indeed the more you can design using construction documents the easier time you will have getting your building built.
im inclined to agree with vado. i design and do my own cds, and that is because i work on my own, but even in my old offices i did both design and cd-ing.
this is a reflection of my choice to work in small offices i think; no more than 15 people and usually no more than 10000 sq. meters of project at a time. The scale of projects was enough for me to be going on with, and the size of the offices meant that i was designing from the first day (first project, design a funky church for a slightly bizarre cult/religion). Japan tends to be cool with hierarchy so my experience is probably not normal for the united states where things (i hear) are much more rigid, ironically nuf.
i find that in larger firms its easy to get pigeonholed..(i work in a large firm)
so.. when i get out of school.. i will look for a mid-size company with compatible philosophy.. who will share my tastes.. and keep things interesting in the studio.. ;)
woah.. its kind of like marriage..
Progression up the corporate ladder sees the time spend using AutoCAD reduce. Delegation is on the increase so that my office time is spent concentrating on the wider design issues and specific design challenges. It is worth noting that I have done my time detailing CD’s which gives me the experience to review and check others work.
Overall I probably use more CAD then ever before but this is different to 2D drafting using AutoCAD in a CAD monkey style.
We ensure all our interns get a broad base in all aspects of Practice as required in RIBA ARB guidlines.
Jul 1, 05 9:07 am ·
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do you design?
Everyone is always complaining about how interns don't design - but what's the definition of design? Do you consider design to be only the large-scale, initial idea, and thus ignore a multitude of small decisions made everyday that are nevertheless still aspects of design? (Do you, for example, make decisions regularly on things like lights, finishes, placement - all in response to program?) Or are you all really just cad monkeys?
The question is do YOU consider yourself a "cad monkey" or an essential part of the design process? Have some faith and respect for yourself and the profession.
i did two internships. on both occassions, i didn't do autocad once.
when looking for internships i made it clear that i wasn't interested in working in autocad. you've got to present yourself in a way that will allow you to be hired to do the work that you want to do.
That's what I'm talkin about.....get that man a Scotch..cheers Eric!
I'm still in school; it was just an honest question. I'm trying to get an idea of what I'm really getting myself into. All I hear is complaints and I want to know how much of it is just bitching and whether most interns consider what they do design, even if it is on a smaller scale.
I'd have to say that ericMontross's experience would be the exception, not the rule. I think you may have a very hard time securing yourself a position if you come into an interview with little experience saying, "I don't do autocad, and I want to do design." Honestly I think you would be laughed out of most interviews with that attitude. I think interns get to "help" do the things you mention, selecting fixtures and finishes, interior or exterior, but generally you're going to have to get it approved by someone else in the office.
For some of us, part of the frustration is that there is no "large-scale, intial idea..." or not one that you are a part of as an intern. Definitely not the only way it can go down, but it's probably more likely that the less experience you have, the less autonomy you have.
I don't consider what I do design. Having said that, I'm generally more of a negative person on this issue. Someone else doing the exact same thing might consider it design. I wouldn't say I'm a cad monkey either. I would say that the stuff you do in school is about 5-10% of a project.
everything is design.
everything is retro
first year of internship was pretty much cad monkey yet i got to design here and there, second year started to outgrow it. now i am my own cad monkey (meaning I design AND cad my own projects, with supervision.) i don't really get to work on the big initial ideas yet, i only get projects after the programming phase, after the "bubble diagrams" have been done and the budget established and the building footprint has even been determined. but this is still design - i can change things radically if i can justify it (and I have) - although its hard when a client has seen a concept and then i take it and develop it for them. we are both thinking "who are you?" to each other. i have asked my office for work on a project through all phases, unfortunatley it has not yet happened. but i consider what i do design for the most part, that doesn't make it easy or fun necessarily.
I don't think eric's situation is that unique. I did about 10% acad, 70% design, and 20% rendering. I also told them that design was what I wanted to do. There's a lot of luck involved, but mostly I think it depends on how you present yourself and how valuable you are to them as a designer. If you tell someone you are lightning fast and have ten years experience drafting, that's what they are going to have you do.
Right now I'm like strawbeary in that I design my own work and then have to do much of the CD's on my own. I have some techs take care of some of the detailing, but by no means can I just pawn off 100% of the CAD work and expect it to be done right. I'm not yet a principal so everything I do is looked over by someone higher than me. Often there are comments made that change some of my design ideas. It's the process. The real world isnt' college and you have to know that no design is going to be 100% yours.
Oh, and good luck finding the firm where you'll never work on CAD. I think ever well rounded intern needs CAD time. CD's are a huge part of the business. Just don't get stuck there. That's the tricky part.
last week my office had a design charette where only the interns worked together on developing the site plan and elevations for a project. they gave us a floor plan, and we did the rest. it was the first time i really was involved with schematic design since working professionally. and it wasn't like other charettes i had done in school where they seemed sort of pointless, we were expected to produce clear, presentable ideas and drawings for the client. and it was three days away from the computer!
now i'm back to CD's but, thats okay...
So, how did it turn out?
we had an intern charrette one day, we got 2 hours to design a space. it was fun. i am getting us to do more of that.
I am working at an Interior Design firm with 0 experience. Anyway, showed the boss my portfolio and i'm designing a series theme based children's furniture (bed, chair, desk, wallpaper etc.). Don't laugh...but I find it quite enjoyable.
sounds fun Nappy...enjoy the experience.
Ditto.....Everything is design!
My experience is that people with a lack of experience ( architecture and life ) don't bring the best game to design. Not good.
But I also have seen a lot of people with lots of experience bring the same game to design ( every single time ) Not good.
It takes a comprehensive understanding and skill to resolve design issues in a rich , imaginative, effective and often adaptive manner. That's why you have to practice it in everything you do.
I'm a cad monkey for the most part. but my boss is cool. he'll get me brainstorming with him once in a while on a project.
i'm lucky since our firm is strictly design. no CDs. so it's easy to get some design (however small) here and there even for a lowly intern such as myself. did everything from some casework stuff and have actually been quite involved in the design of competition projects. did a lot of masterplanning too.
yeah. we've been doing it for years at our firm so we've got a pretty good system of quality control regarding the final CDs. we're VERY integrated in the CD process. we constantly are coordinating and checking CDs w/ our associated firm as they do the CDs. it takes a lot of extra work but we've come to expect it and (i'm pretty sure) it's included in the scope of our work from the beginning.
we also include the documenting firm from the first meetings and such of the project so they're with us as we go through the design phases. they get a better understanding and then everyone is on the same page when it comes to doing CDs. i wish i could tell you more about the inner workings but i mostly am just drawing things and calling the other firm saying "You got it wrong!"
I'm at my first job out of school, and I have one project where I design, and a couple others where I just draw. It's a good balance for the first job.
no. i can't even find a damn job.
Thanks. Of course I realize that no one is going to get their dream job straight out of school, and obviously someone has to do the CD's. But at least after six years of DESIGN education interns do design - and hopefully with the chance to do more and more later on. I, for one, did not get into architecture because I love CAD. Forgive my ignorance (naivete?)
i've bean able to design some interesting interior spaces in my year at the current place (almost 2 years out of school now). the only issue being not what gets designed, but what gets hacked down by either:
A, the client
B, the clients wife and her interior decorator friend
C, the boss
D, the budget
when there is actual design going on in the office, i am usually able to participate. it is not enough though, so i end up supplementing it in other ways on my own time.
gotta love the client's wife and the interior designer/decorator friends of the client - we've had some really bad choices made by such characters.
how can you design a building if you dont do the cd's? that is where most of the real design happens.
vado - build it yourself. of course this only works in particular cases but it's worked for me.
Your right though, one of the biggest pieces of advice I got in school was to figure out how to convey the stuff that was in my head into something anyone could understand. Indeed the more you can design using construction documents the easier time you will have getting your building built.
/rambling
read otl aicher's the world as design. it's all design baby.
im inclined to agree with vado. i design and do my own cds, and that is because i work on my own, but even in my old offices i did both design and cd-ing.
this is a reflection of my choice to work in small offices i think; no more than 15 people and usually no more than 10000 sq. meters of project at a time. The scale of projects was enough for me to be going on with, and the size of the offices meant that i was designing from the first day (first project, design a funky church for a slightly bizarre cult/religion). Japan tends to be cool with hierarchy so my experience is probably not normal for the united states where things (i hear) are much more rigid, ironically nuf.
the answer is ... no..
i find that in larger firms its easy to get pigeonholed..(i work in a large firm)
so.. when i get out of school.. i will look for a mid-size company with compatible philosophy.. who will share my tastes.. and keep things interesting in the studio.. ;)
woah.. its kind of like marriage..
yeah, it is.
as long as its not a gay marriage. or you will burn in hell.
Progression up the corporate ladder sees the time spend using AutoCAD reduce. Delegation is on the increase so that my office time is spent concentrating on the wider design issues and specific design challenges. It is worth noting that I have done my time detailing CD’s which gives me the experience to review and check others work.
Overall I probably use more CAD then ever before but this is different to 2D drafting using AutoCAD in a CAD monkey style.
We ensure all our interns get a broad base in all aspects of Practice as required in RIBA ARB guidlines.
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