I would take a look at rhino...

can you elaborate?

maya is the all around best
-Zeth

maya has a huge learning curve if you haven't used it before, whereas you will be modelling in form-z pretty quickly.

maya is probably more 'powerful' in that it has wider range of abilities and every little thing can be fine tuned. it is also heavily oriented towards moving images.
formz has a narrower range, but almost anything you can model in maya you can model in formz. formz is oriented towards static models

stripping both down to their core modelling abilities: they are probably pretty similar onthe basics: form-z has really good boolean tools. maya includes the ability to use painting-like tools to shape: taking a base object as if it was plasticine and caruving and smooshing it. form-z has a drafting module which makes precision modelling easier.

nothing will be _easier_ in maya, but maya is nore flexible in the long run

Go with Rhino or Max. Rhino (I don't know it, by the way) has a great reputation for nurbs and ease of use. It also is supported by Brazil (although Final Render and VRay will have stand alone renderers soon, so that may not matter).
Maya is just overkill for most of architecture and mental ray is a beast (although there are some recent DVDs by some superb artists).

Max would also work, but like Maya is not aimed at accuracy (you can kiss the accuracy and reliability of snaps with FormZ goodbye with either). Rhino, at least from what I read, can be accurate and is easy. Not to mention it's inexpensive.

My guess:

1. Rhino
2. Learn the curve/surface tools for Formz better, there are some pretty sophisticated product designs out there using it efficiently.
3. Max

One thing you could do is get maya from alias for free. They offer a free full version on their site, has a burn mark on all renders but it would at least let you try it and see for yourself. Maya does have a pretty big learning curve though I thought it was about the same as learning max. Alias has some decent dvd tutorials and such that help.

If you want nurb accuracy, i.e. fabrication files, cds I would agree with everyone else.. get rhino. My only gripe with rhino (other than lack of a decent animation setup) would be file sizes, if you have a lot of detail elements expect to tax your computer hard. You can get a demo of rhino and the flamingo renderer from rhinos website.

presumably cyn is on a mac, so rhino and max may not be an option.

my suggestion is that, unless you can think of anything specific that maya does but formz doesn't (particle dynamics or something) then formz is better.

Architectural Desktop + Max is a good combination ... accurate modeling in AutoCad and then referncing that into Max. You can assign materials in ADT and have them available in Max. The newer versions of ADT come with Viz and sort of merge AFT with Viz (the stripped-down architectural version of Max) and allow you to do basic rendering, but if you want to do animation you should use Max and add the DWG reader plugin.

um, can i suggest that if you can't answer the question that you refrain from commenting?

we are comparing maya and formz. rhino, max, and autocad are irrelevant. they may be marvellous, but they aren't relevant.

hi
yeah i am on a mac. but i'm wondering whether i should get a pc too, if i can't do what i want to with the mac...

i am having difficulty getting the formz to make the shapes i want--facets, tilted planes and more intricate flowing folds. it seems like i have to know how to make exactly what i want already in advance, ie i can't start with a fairly dumb shape and slice off bits at angles or push/pull a surface like it was fabric to experiment. i end up going back to work with clay in the 'real' world.

is it just me or do i have the wrong program/setup?

um, I mentioned Max because I use Maya currently (because I have to) and still think Max is more suited to architecture in many ways and is more exact than Maya, especially when it comes to linking in cad files. FormZ has some powerful features but its interface does not let me work fast enough ... and for really complex models I prefer Max as well. I could not get some of my buildings modeled in FormZ because it could not handle that much geometry, but Max and Maya do fine. But Maya's learning curve is indeed high and many things have to be done by hand or with plugin scripts. Its "network" "architecture" of nodes takes some getting used to, and Max is easy in comparison ... and FormZ is way easier in comparison to either.

cyn - you said "i am having difficulty getting the formz to make the shapes i want--facets, tilted planes and more intricate flowing folds. it seems like i have to know how to make exactly what i want already in advance, ie i can't start with a fairly dumb shape and slice off bits at angles or push/pull a surface like it was fabric to experiment."

Well, that sort of thing is very fluid in Maya. You can do polygonal modeling in which case you can split faces, cut them manually, extrude edges, faces, etc., With NURBS modeling in Maya you can pull/push surfaces with weighted paintbrushes ... like clay.

Try their Personal Learning Edition, which is free.

agfa8x - max and autocad are very relevant if the original poster had not thought of them. it can't hurt to mention them. of course on a mac it is irrelevant but i didn't know that. geez.

thanks for all responses, this is helping...the thing is, i can't seem to get the formz to 'respond', for lack of a better term. i want to be able to take a basic scheme/idea and play with the form more, and it seems so tedious in this program...i don't know whether its just that i don't know the program well enough or the program is too limiting. in other words, i need a program where i can look at different options fairly quickly. at this point i'm not looking to do cds, this is more about ideas and getting them to a portfolio stage--ie great renderings.

is it easier to manipulate nurbs forms in maya than formz? or is rhino far easier than both?

what about facetted buildings? which program is the best for manipulating/experimenting?

i realize the learning curve may be high, but i'd like to know which program allows more 'play'.

thanks cvoogt, i will try their PLE.

rhino is by far the easiest, although you will always have to rely on other rendering engines, because the internal one is crap. it also has the advantage of having very low requirements, which means you can run it on slow machines.

from personal experience the best combination remains rhino (for modelling) and max (rendering), although maya has just about the same potential, just a different interface. both maya and max are very complex programs, and whatever function one has as a default, you'll probably find a plug-in for the other that does the same.

3dmax seems to be a bit more of an industry standard than maya as far as Architecture is concearned, but i'm not too sure.

Yeah, Max is more of an industry standard than Maya. Rhino is efficient and exact - the few times I used it I was very impressed and the learning curve seemed a lot shallower than for Maya. Rhino has a built-in renderer called Flamingo which may or may not meet your needs. You can export you Rhino files and import them in Max to render there, but it would seem a waste of money to buy Max *only* to use it for rendering. I suppose you could also import Rhino exports into FormZ for rendering and additional modeling there. I believe you would have a hard time doing NURBS in FormZ - I don't think it does those at all, and those are what Rhino is particularly good at.

FormZ has nurbs, er, nurbz. I've used the briefly and found them ok, but not as good as Maya or Max. I'll play with Rhino someday, but no need for nurbs in 99% of the arch world.

When taking renderings or lined drawings from Maya into Illustrator for presentation boards - I usually go through Rhino. (Just in case you needed an excuse to buy both).

hi--why do you go through rhino?

and why go through illustrator rather than photoshop?
thanks in advance

vectors

ok, are you referring to illustrator's vectors?
why rhino?

have you looked into Cinema 4D/XL? Apparently they have the hook up with Vectorworks (if you're interested in that).

I'm in the same situation, being that I'm on a mac but also have a PC for 3d work (Max & Rhino). I'd like to consolidate to just the Mac and thought that Maya was the way to go. But does anyone know anything about 4DXL (with or without the Vectorworks marriage)?

i haven't looked into 4d at all. 'cinema' sounds like its big on animation--how is it in modelling, anyone know?

Maya To Rhino To Vectors - to use in Illustrator. Why Illustrator over photoshop?

Just take 15 minutes to learn illustrator and you'll switch over too. I used photoshop throughout undergrad for all of my layouts, until someone taught me Illustrator. Photoshop for photos - use illustrator for other things....

there's also sketch-up which is faster than formZ and has some better rending capabilites. We had to design a reception desk, so we did it really fast in sketch-up, the client loved it.

Check out their website for a free download.

sketch up has rendering capabilities? I thought it was just opengl?

It is a good program, though, and you can export to something like Max for good rendering. It's cheap, too.

ok can you elaborate on the vectors thing with an example?

since i don't know maya or rhino, i'm not sure what this accomplishes. but it sounds good.

thanks.

i hear cardboard and balsa wood work wonders.

formz is fairly easy to learn. If you have someone to show you the ropes you can get the hang of it real quick.

sketchup was a lot more intuitive for me than formz, and it lets you do animations as well. in terms of rendering it is great at lines and flat shading including transparencies, something that can be quite frustrating to accomplish with Maya. The SketchUp rendering look is comparable to FormZ.

can't do architectural modeling in Cinema