Francesc,

first, congrats!!

i have many separate feelings on this but first ask, was it a good project?

i have to say, paying someone to make a model [assuming they directed it] doesnt bother me at all. one never works alone in the real world or any level and the collaboration is fine to show the best work possible for the idea. if it was a first undergrad studio where the focus is more on the craft then i would be more bothered but at grad level, no, its ok.

but if the student intentionally took or screwed anothers work, thats out of line. dont go after the model maker as he was only the messenger. ask the model maker if the chief asked him to take stuff agregiously and with a positive answer, go after him.

As for the site model...its just a site model. I mean there's no real thought or creativity in a site model. It depends on the context and culture as to whether this is considered cheating. I know that in Korea its pretty common for upperclassman to recruit students to help them finish competition boards. Once the boards are presented there is no mention of the other students involvement.

As for the discarded diagram, did he actually pin up someone else's work and say hey I did this. Or did he merely "reinterpret" someone’s discarded thoughts? I'd say this guy is doing some pretty sketchy stuff but I'm not sure its clearly cheating. In fact that's what you need to find out.

I'd go to the professor and ask him point blank what he feels about using a site model that was built by others. If you express the fact that other students may be confused about this as well, he'll probably make his opinions clear to the class. This would level the playing field for the whole studio.

If your studio mate purposely goes beyond what your prof. has determined to be acceptable, then I think you could have grounds to rat him out.

Regardless, this kid will probably wash out in the system. But not all of them do, and in that case he's watering down the value of your education. You could always wait for the crit and ask him, "How much does it cost to have a site model like that built?" The public humiliation alone should straighten him up.

Who are you or anyone else to "go after him"? this scholastic self-righteousness is comical. if someone takes a scrap/sketch/scribble that I have thrown away and finds inspiration in it, good for them. If the person who’s diagram it was feels used THEY should walk up to the drawing and sign it in front of everyone. No one would argue. As for the “may have lost data as a result of this person grabbing their exploratory notes” the author is searching to validate their frustration with the “cheater”. cesc fabregas uses WE throughout this rally for spiritual cleaning, Do you and these others sit around and discuss the “cheaters” acts over beers after studio? What a waste of your time and energy.

Probably the same amount of time I’ve wasted on this issue.

recruiting=OK
using others' work=not OK

getting younger kids to help you out was considered mentoring and it was actually good, and considered smart. it meant you were ambitious and could direct work.

not that very many did it, i should add. we would give each other ideas though, no problem. you don't want fights or bad tension in studio.

i think you know if it's right or wrong, don't you?

i would just suggest it during class crit or something. see how he handles it. let the instructor hear the class's critique of it.

I agree with gonzo that cesc fabregas' post is revealing a hint of jelousy / frustration / inadequacy. The fixation on others work/methods rather than the author's own shows a lack of confidence.

However, there still should be clear understanding of what is acceptable in this studio and what is not. Shit, I'd build a site model if someone paid me. I also don't think I'd really care if someone used my discarded work. After all it was discarded.

If you try to be the studio cop people are going to hate you just as much as the said "cheater." That's why I suggest clearing up the unknowns. Its better for everyone.

personally if i cheated and got ratted out, i would do some serious damage.

cesc if your work is good enough, why the f.... do you care??? if you were in my class, we'd ask you to pull your head out of your ass...really

i dont know why other people here are not mentioning it, but
1. as far as the model is concerned..whats you problem with that????
2. for the diagram, let the person whose diagram he 'stole' confront the person???

you might want to spend your time more productively instead of ranting about ethical issues in design studios. please go get a life

if you are still feeling really bad about it, go and talk to the person yourself, instead of 'confronting' him directly in front of everyone..you never know he might also have a serious problem (family, health etc etc), and thats why he is taking help from others??

yup, everyone seems to agree. Getting help elsewhere, especially when you could be spending time on your design and not the site model (always a pain to do - would have loved to have someone make mine!) is just plain smart.

Some schools have traditions where the first years help the last years for the finals - give and take. It worked out fairly well, although died a little as computer imagery took over.
Some of use would lend the use of our computer to others who had crits after us. It's just to help out.

Go get yourself someone to build your site model next time! It's just savvy management. I'd guess you are just bitter because he didn't have to do the meaningless/time wasting part and could focus on his design.

Stealing work is not ok, of course, but there are fine lines. A classmate of mine tried to get someone in trouble, as he had a great design that has taken right from the Arch mag on his desk! It was obvious, but admin thought that it wasn't worth doing anything about. Looking back, I'd agree. He as an A student all the way around and had one questionable semester, not worth anyone getting stressed about.
Unless they actually 'stole' the real model, or did it more than once, I doubt many schools would bother. It won't really help anyone, long term, and we all know how many 'inspired' designs there are everywhere.

I disagree, but that's probably a cultural difference between my country and yours. Our school system is free because it's oriented toward giving the same chances to all. Yours is not: studying is expensive and students have to be part of the upper middle class to be able to afford studying. In France, outside of the school that still function in the old atelier system, it wouldn't be choking to get help from others, but to pay someone to do something would be considered unfair because it would unbalance the 'fairness' given by the free inscription system, even if its not as efficient as it appear (since its pretty expensive to buy the stuff you need to study anyway, ie model material, drafting material, computer stuff etc...).
But if I was a student in the US I wouldn't mind: teacher won't care that much about the quality of the site model. They will generally consider the quality of the project first. Don't worry about this guy.

I had a studiomate in my 4th semester undergrad studio at UF who would literally copy a design right out of an arch. magazine / monograph and nothing happened to him. We all knew he lacked talent as far as desgin was concerned, but he could really schmooze the jury at final crit. He would go as unashamedly far as to place xerox's of the projects he was "researching" right on his desk, right nex to his model, which was identical. I really got a kcik out of it. Some peopel were pissed but I always figured, if I did my best work I could care less about this fool.

Don't worry about this punk - he'll get what's coming to him sooner or later - especially in the real world outside of school.

Um, yeah. And what would that be?? Quite possibly a high-up position in a decent firm, where he can schooze all the clients and the principals will love him for it. So many people trying to be good designers, but really to be designing much of worth is very difficult - in the states more so than europe, just because of the fucked up industry and architectural culture. So, yes, this guy will probably make twice your salary, and actually be the one bringing in work to firms to keep your sort in a precious design position.

Ahahahaha, good point, Alan. Some of my colleagues who showed a lot of potential in architectural design school had tough time to adjust in real profession where their design skills were often overlooked and underrated, while those kids who managed to finish the program by some bs and "buddying" with the faculties went out and became administrative project managers, selling the school name and making tons of money.
Hey, welcome to real life!

yes french i think it is a big cultural difference that is talking here.

the amount of competition (read dirty competition) that goes on in some schools in the US is ridiculous. really. i think its yes, because of the money involved in education, first, and a general attitude to out-do the other persons in the class.

but i have a feeling that if one does his/her own work with integrity and passion and not cribbing about others copying stuff etc, one could do just fine and be recognized for his/her work. In the end its not about who gets more work done, but whose work is innovative.

thanks everyone for the opinions. a typical mix of great advice and crap which is exactly what i hoped to get. a few clarifications...

this is a first year UG studio so the emphasis is on the model itself. i think this neutralises the "good time management" comments and places it more in the realm of cheating bastard.

as for the using the other student's 3d diagram, he basically picked it up off his desk, glued it to his own base plane and walked into the crit to talk about it. also lame... very likely cheating. too bad the student he took it from isn't of the personality required to turn him in (fear of repercussion from the instructor) or to call him out by the public signing of the model (brilliant idea!).

the guy does have problems. he's a raging alcoholic, but so what... that doesn't excuse the behaviour. i'm sure he'll do himself in in the long run, but i'm always up for giving a "helpful" push in the right direction.

i'm quite confident in my own work thank you very much. this guy poses no threat whatsoever in that respect. he's just a complete twat and etc...

he did come back into the studio hammered and belligerent late last night to confront us all about the rumours of his imminent demise. it was a nasty scene, but was handled with diplomacy. we'll see how this plays out further today.

thanks again.

Leave it alone. Let the victim/student confront the alleged perpetrator on his own--and if he can't even muster up the courage to fight for the integrity of his own education and work, then that's his problem. Even if the perpetrator succeeds in garnering praise etc. from critics, it really shouldn't affect you directly--if your own work is good, you'll receive recognition, if that's what you're looking for.

Generally speaking, it's never a good idea to fight someone else's battle for them.

I had something very similar happen in a studio many years ago (similar even the part about the offending student having taken a physical part of my work and passed it off as his own.) I did report what had happened. I now regret having done that.
The student was not kicked out of the program, in fact the only thing that happened was that he was "talked to" by the studio critic and the department head. The student claimed a misunderstanding of what was acceptable. There was no other action taken and the student received a decent grade for the studio.
I regret having bothered to report him because it was just a waste of my own time and energy and created unecessary anger in me that served no purpose for anybody. After that my policy became "mind your own business and let karma take care of it." That's been a better policy - escpecially for my own nerves and peace of mind.

when i was an undergrad i took a summer ceramics course. rather than hand build my own work i just dug around the slurry tank for the disgards of others and then i artfully arranged my findings. prof loved it and i got an a for the course.

cesc is right to question this guy - you fellows who think it's somehow strange or wrong to do so are being ridiculous, if everyone went about ripping each other off and cheating what would be the point of doing anything at all? Some students are just stupid, or just not original - but they get good grades and good jobs by copying, cheating, and lying. These people are behaving outrageously, and unprofessionally; it's pathetic, nothing else. If you get some good architecture out of the arse of these students that's nice, but let's not pretend it's somehow fine and dandy!?

Rat him - for sure. (just because it's called ratting doesn't mean it's so bad) ;)

As someone once said - "in academic circles it's called plagiarism, in architecture it's called precedent" (I think it was some archinecter?)

ps I guess you're from the UK cesc - as you used 'twat' to describe the other guy hehe, and that he certainly sounds like!

"the guy does have problems. he's a raging alcoholic, but so what... that doesn't excuse the behaviour. i'm sure he'll do himself in in the long run, but i'm always up for giving a "helpful" push in the right direction.

i'm quite confident in my own work thank you very much. this guy poses no threat whatsoever in that respect. he's just a complete twat and etc..."

cesc,

i can potentially agree with your thinking that what this
person is doing is wrong...but your vindictiveness seems misplaced.
especially in first year... i mean this guy will get weeded out in the
process...especially when it comes to his portfolio reviews.

as far as giving him a helpful push...instant karma's gonna get you...
if he doesn't get kicked out he'll be with you possibly for five years.
and that kind of unhealthy competition is the worst part of studio in
my memory.

well, it seems like there isn't enough information to get it all straight on here. If he stole from a student, that's completely different than having someone do something for you. I am confused, but don't care to try and sort it out.

I'll agree with the 'let it alone and let the students immediately involved handle it'. When a gang tries to fight something like this, it's just a mess and doesn't help anything (besides alienate the student in question and build some abnormal bond with those accusing). Eitherway, sounds like people got bitter and took it out on the guy.

The best way to handle it would be for 2 or so students to approach the professor and leave it at that.

But I obviously don't know the whole story, just that the social balance in studies can become precarious at times like this and the outcome is never positive. My 2 cents more.

oh, yeah, and if he is indeed cheating and this is only first semester, he'll get what's comin' to him.

once again, thanks for all the responses. i'm gonna let this thread die for now. there's a lot of good stuff in there already that i'll consider for the future, both personally and as part of a group.

Hmmmm, reminds me of when people had 6 thesis helpers instead of the 'legal' 2. Slave factories. I don't care if the guy is behind or if he's screwed, it's an unfair advantage, even if it's just a site model. And if this is only first year, what will he/she do for his last project, hire a small firm?

What to do? Depends on how much this advantage is. I'm not talking of whether he gets to sleep and you guys don't (although people might object already), I'm talking of how much more can he do without worrying about the site model. I wouldn't let it distract me from work, although it would really piss me off. And rest assured, if someone picked up something from my desk and pinned it up as their work..........all hell would brake loose. The audacity!

I think the important question is this: "What would Mr. T do?"

give him bad design suggestions and hope that he takes them seriously

Yeah, I think the guy is already royally screwed - he'll never have respect of his classmates. The differing opinions is the main reason not to take things on as a small group of students - there just are too many personal things, too many things to sort out that it'll just make a mess (imagine all of us on here arguing in studio about it - it just wouldn't help anyone).

Shit sticks and that given time, cream will always rise to the top. Two phrases that would serve you well in this situation.

NB. Shit may rise to the top but that depends on the amount of fibre in any given diet!!

confront the cheating studiomate on jerry springer

two words 'doctor phil'...

or doctor quinn medicine woman...ok not really dr quinn, but
the non sequitir made me smile.

if you really care, talk to him in private. and while doing this don't act as a represenative of the whole class.
if he still persists and is harmful to other students, then tell the appropriate authority.

Talking to the student personally might be a good idea - but that would depend on the dynamic between the two of you.
Reporting the student to the professor and/or administration is probably not such a great idea in terms of involving yourself in this whole issue and possibly creating ill will toward yourself - both from the student and from your teachers and department who may actually treat you as a meddler if you do this.
I've been on the student and the professor side of this and I've been pretty disappointed with the lack of action that schools will take with regard to cheating/plagiarism. I failed a student for academic dishonesty and then had the administration bow to pressure from the student's parents and raise the student's grade to passing against my objections.
I've known one student who was expelled from a program due to dishonesty. This student purchased and submitted the work of another student who had taken the course the year before. The dishonest student actually cut the previous student's name off of the work in the office of the professor right before handing the work in to that professor. This was witnessed by employees of the professor, who saved the trimmings with the name of the other student. This evidence is the reason that the school took this action, and without the evidence it would be very unlikely that the school would have done anything besides issue a written warning at most. However: even in this blatant, documented case, this student was readmitted one year later with no further consequences except being required to submit a letter of apology.
Schools tend to be very lenient and very forgiving as a whole. Less tolerant faculty are routinely overruled.

aluminate...
probably because we live in a suit mentality...
the school is worried about getting sued..especially
when there's not necessarily a clearly defined plagiarism
statute..or maybe it could also be...like in art...stealing
ideas and/or work is hard to prove...i mean even in the
profession blatant ripoff work is difficutly to win a lawsuit
over. your case does sound extraordinarily odd though.

overall, i still question why a student feels as though they
need to be the one to a) talk to the student, b) talk to a
professor. I guess in some way you're directly affected,
but unless this person is winning some kind of monetary
or year end award i don't see how anyone else in the class
other than the person from whom he stole work, should feel
such righteous/self-righteous anger.

this happened quite a few times in my college career, people
helping out others...and it didn't really effect me until the
end of thesis...when a person who had had quite a few people
help with her work had so much more work displayed than
everyone else that she was asked by a jury member whether
or not she did everything because he was obviously impressed
...to which she answered yes...but that was a
competition and i believe there was money and awards involved.

a first year model? you'll understand how petty it is in five years.
but then again i had people from studio actually burn one of
my models (that i made all by myself) over something similarly
petty so i may be a bit biased.

plagarism is plagarism.
We were allowed "slaves" only in thesis year and only for thesis projects.
I agree in first year craft matters so if your paying someone to make it for you your bordering on some serious issues.
As for taking a diagram, that is plagarism we let some students slide back in the day and they made it through 4 years with the same tricks and bs. Turn him in. Fuck him. Plagarism is the real danger to any creative activity, it's one thing to be influenced by the styles of your colleagues it's another to completely take anothers design and pass it as your own. Check your schools handbooks/rules more than likely they have a zero-tolerance plagerism policy. Get his ass kicked out.

first you should probably bring it to his/her attention that there is some concern among your mates. the worst thing to do in these situations is to make assumptions and blow everything out of proportion. if this person comes to realize that it is affecting /straining the relations among his studio and doesnt seem to care or want to change the situation, then take action. without sufficient evidence and a proactive administration, you cant kick his ass out of studio. the only thing you will do is propagate paranoia and stress among everyone. be grown-up about it, after all, when it comes down to it, nobody is doing original work in studio anyway. we all 'plagarize' in one sense or another.

nobody likes a rat fink.

believe in yourself, drink your school, stay in drugs, and don't do milk

Well you could take the approach we did...

We had a horrible designer try to pass off renderings as her own in a proposal for a library expansion, however one of the brighter and well spoken students had came up with a great question on the design intentions of the space. The look on her face was classic and the answer was even better. It was known to all that they weren't hers, humility does the job. I suggest you used your pride, brains, and integrity to place her in a position that humility can take the rest out of your hands. Good luck! i also believe that a little extra help on a model isnt wrong however it can' t be commandeered!

meversusyou- true a witch hunt isn't good for anyone. But, if you have undisputed proof, i.e. someone saw the accused physically take the diagram and glue it to his presentation then I would hardly call that blowing anything out of proportion.
I'm speaking of true blue plagarism which this seems to be the case of not, more ethereal influences, such as students making similiar materials choices..etc. I'm not suggesting anyone play tattletale but if plagarism is to be defeated there needs to be some sort of line that when crossed is sternly punished.

if you believe someone in your school's administration will take action to stop the plagarism, then do it. make sure you talk to the accused to see if the problem warrants such an action. i've seen altercations turn into he said she said type things, not good for morale /relations between studiomates. but if this person doesn't seem to mind that his/her actions are affecting everyone, fuck em. get em out of there.

why does someone go into the study of architecture (or anything)? there is a lesson to be learned by everyone.

personal opinion, is it is wrong, wrong, wrong. someone else is doing their homework, whether they do it or just 'copy' it down into the form wanted. think term paper............. thesis............... hard research. the work is assigned to develop the skills under pressure to perform.

vigilante ethics 101
What happens if everyone in the food chain decides to outsource their responsibilities??

Maybe if you know the model maker person, you can get a pool of nose to the grindstone classmates ( a 12 person jury of his peers) to pay the model maker not to finish the guy's work on time and leave the delegator dangling in the breeze. That would have entertainment value when it came to crit time.

it would go something like this: Very straight faced he says, 'My rottweiler ate my model.' All the while he is standing there with his head down and his hands in his pockets fingering the money the model maker handed him back. The model maker gets to think about it, and got paid to think about it as well.

that would feel soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good - with 12 ;-) faces gazing at the condemned man. Then I probably would take the guy out for beer & get him really really sotted. Life lessons are shared.

2 bad its too late this go round.
capitalism is good.
Be a creative problem solver.
Money can't buy you love.

te he he e-)

ps the instructor would be FOFLOL when the story leaks out & he probably would.

you know, i think there are lots of gray areas here -

i know someone who 'outsourced' their admissions portfolio. i found that questionable. would it be ok to 'outsource' admissions essays, your GRE scores, ...?

Hiring another student doesnt bother me, had a person do thatin my thesis class. Wasnt very cad savy so she hired an underclassmen that was to help.

As to using someone elses work theres a word for it, plagerism. In the profession acedamia its huge no-no and if you wanted could bring up legal issues. The person is settin them self up for failure at some level might as well break it to them now.

at some schools (yale and tulane being two i know of) there has been a tradition of upper level students enlisting the help of younger students for models, site models, odd jobs.

the upper level people get ahead, the less experienced gain some tricks, skills, insight, and the knowledge that they can get the same help when THEY are farther along. this is encouraged by the schools.

my thesis advisor at university of kentucky tried to enlist this kind of help for me, but there was no tradition or precedent that made any of the younger students see it as as good idea.

Slip him a mickey

Steven Ward: I don't know.... I went to Yale and the one time that I, as an upper level student, allowed another student to help me briefly (and note that this student volunteered and I didn't solicit the help) I got a lot of vocal criticism/objection from this other lower-level student's peers. It made me uncomfortable enough that I refused further offers of help. It wasn't a practice that seemed to happen much and when it did it was frowned upon - at least by other students. I don't think the faculty or admin really ever indicated a pro or con position on this though.

my thesis advisor was a fairly recent (2000?) yalie and indicated that this was a more common tradition. ah well.

Interesting... If your thesis advisor graduated in 2000 then my time there overlapped with his or hers - in fact it would have been people from that era that were the ones throwing a fit over my helper. It's possible though that by the time they were the upper classmen they'd changed their point of view...

Steven,
I had plenty such opportunities for help, but was always hesitant to take them. I have had others do things like make trees for me, or trim the white edges off of my drawings, but only ever on the very last day before my turnin, and rarely, as I've always believed that model building is a helpful tool, and even while I'm building trees or cutting a hundred columns the same size, I'm thinking about how to do the next piece of it.

I also believe that there is a big difference between a upper year student getting freshmen and sophomores to help them build things, than those freshmen getting the same help from an upper year student, or even a student in their own year. My own rule on this has always been, "Don't accept any help that is better than you could have done it yourself, and if it turns out worse, that's your penalty for needing help."

I think that for a first year student to recieve help from their classmates is not acceptable, because in first year there is a big emphasis on craft, and they are supposed to be learning the time management skills that will help them complete their projects throughout their education. If this guy is doing this now, he'll never finish a project on his own. A little workshop of freshmen for a thesis student is an entirely different matter.