is 75k supposed to be bad, i've been looking forward to being poor and over-educated my whole life. I think i'd be a better liberal that way actually....don't pay me too much i'll just spend it anyway
lessee....commercial and type V...must be small strip malls. who the hell builds anything commercial out of type V except single story small strips or TI's.
15 years experience to do that????
How complex are the building codes for type V??????
an architectural license is preferred for a senior architect - requirements are getting a bit more relaxed eh?
things don't quite add up here for me...
yep, a QC guy.. we have one too..
not a job for me, but believe me, there are people perfect for this.
a kind of person who settled down long time ago..
Just look at the bright side. The bad pay is a perfect motivation to get out of architecture. It doesn’t matter what you do once you get out, you’ll be making way more money. So don’t laugh at the guy who works at Mcdonald’s. 10 years down the line he’ll be the regional manager and making over 100k.
Yeah, my friend that worked for Starbucks, with 2 years working there, was offerend a managerial job that paid more than any entry level arch job.
Pathetic, really - no education (he had his GED, but no degrees, although I will say he's one of the most intelligent people I know and just got his Bachelor's), little training, and he's going to make much more than the typical graduate with 2 degrees!
Someone remind me...why did we all get into this??
One thing to point out. You guys on here always seem to look down at the more pragmatic, construction-type architect jobs. There is nothing better or worse about these jobs than being a "designer" other than theres more chance for ego-inflation with being a "designer."
But other than that, this job is super necessary to the profession.. so they pay may not be what someone at Kraft Foods makes as a CEO, but the job is a good job. and an important one. So, please, stop being such snobs. And please stop thinking that making a lot of money is the most important aspect of your life. As long as you have work you enjoy, and make enough money to live life, you should be happy. Lets not complain were not paid like the same CEOs or Lawyers who have accelerated the gap between rich and super poor.
TRACE...IT CERTAINLY WASN'T TO SPEND 15 YEARS WORKING FOR OTHER PEOPLE JUST SO I CAN OVERSEE CD'S. AND MY GUESS IS THAT 75K IN SAN FRAN ISN'T GOING FAR EITHER.
norm - yup, that's why I left a large firm 6 months out of grad school and never looked back at being employed by an architect - that was in 2000.
hotsies - "There is nothing better or worse about these jobs than being a "designer" other than theres more chance for ego-inflation with being a "designer.""
Well, depends on how you look at it. Let's say you were a politician and sold out, taking the $$ to promote large corps, anti environ, etc., would that be good? While not entirely comparable, it's similar. Good design, the kind most of us want to do, help contribute to an attractive surrounds that will be here for many, many years. The impact can be huge.
So take the $$'s, I have no problem with that, I sure want them. But the $$ aren't so great to offset the destruction of personal pride and community awareness/contribution. I chose to leave it all together, rather than make stuff I hate.
“And please stop thinking that making a lot of money is the most important aspect of your lifeâ€Â
Who’s talking about making lots of money? We just want to make enough money to pay off the student loan, the mortgage, the car note, the insurance and an occasional trip to the buffet. Is that too much to ask for?
Harold. 75$. puts you in the top 2% of the world population.
that isnt enough for you?
Trace. The job listing doesnt mention anything about "selling out" or the nature of the projects.. only the job responsibility.
Yours silly argument with politicians is not helpful, because its not the same. Theres nothing more moral about HdM work than there is about HOKs work. Just a difference of interest in the profession.
Theres nothing more moral about HdM work than there is about HOKs work. Just a difference of interest in the profession.
That may be true, but doing responsible development work versus doing strip malls does have a moral component to it. Adding to car centered sprawl does impact communities negatively.
I looked up the median home price in SF.. $404,500
That's going to be hard to swing on 75k. It's not working for minimum wage, obviously, but I think most of us hope to be valued (or value ourselves currently) at a higher pay rate.
it might be the fact that you are content with making 75K after 15 years of sweating it out. And really, thats a virtue.
But for most of the rest of us, its a bit less. Im assuming that you are single, no grown-up kids etc etc. Imagine sending your kid to college in the US and spending around 40K per annum per kid. what are you left with??? a ridiculous amount of say, 10K for the whole year??? (deduct taxes from the 75K = 50K)...If your spouse is working too, add a bit more money to that equation. But its hardly enough to make a semi-decent living with that kind of money in a place like SF.
on a funny note, if you happen to make more than 75K after 15 years, hit me up on my email address and send the excess amount to me, i sure could use it.
Thats true as well.
But making a project with exquistite materials, and super expensive paints, metals, etc. (rem, Hdm, etc).. is just as "amoral" in a geo-ethical sense as well, because theres nothing about expensive materials that is "fair" to labor.
so. before, everony goes and condemns strip malls because they add one kind of damage. consider the other kind as well. and again.
75K. thats plenty to live on. you may not be trump. but if we all start trying to make hundreds of thousands of dollars, then it only means that money comes from the exploitation of another group of people.
you dont make lots of money by being fair, you know.
If I could buy a house in SF for $404,500, I'd be there in a heartbeat, but the fact is that most go for well over $600K. Now think two incomes at $75K with two kids, which is likely if you've been working for 15 years. That means you want a 3bd house. You would need about $120K downpayment, and your payments would be about $3,000 per month. Add $500 per month in property tax. Add insurance. Add all the other life expenses and you're beyond broke.
Yes, 75K is more than 98% of people in the world make, but that doesn't mean you're rich. As for exploiting other people, I think we all participate in exploitation to the extent we are consumers. Our quality of living (whatever that means) comes on the backs of people working hard for very little in other countries without the protections we have in this one. But opting out of the system completely doesn't accomplish anything either.
Personally, I would take a 75K job in SF, but not the one advertised. If I'm sacrificing income to be in Architecture, then I need to be rewarded in some other way, like in the quality of the work or the quality of the work environment.
after the discussion of "strip malls" and the morality assumed by those who design them became part of this discussion.. is it responsible to think you need a 3 bedroom house, when really a 2 brd condo would do finr?
please dont try to impose your lifestyle and its ramifications on a general discussion board. Sure many people live with families of 4 in 70 sq. yards apartments, but that is again not what most people want to do after working for 15 years.
Sure earning money is transfer from the pockets of one group of people to the other, but the fact is that at the end of the day one wants to be rewarded for their work and intellectual property.
is 75 K supposed to be bad? 99.9 percent of the people I know would be more than comfortable with that salary. Shit...if that was the maximum salary I ever made I would be more than satisfied.
ok i'll jump back in. the 3 bd. house was hypothetical, but I don't think it's inappropriate for a 4-person family to want a 3-bd. home. Whether that's a condo or townhome or single family house is a different matter.
I happen to be selling a 4 bedroom (semi-suburban) house right now to move to the bay area, and I can barely even trade into a 2-bedroom condo. My daughters are also very young now, and so we think 2 bedrooms will work, but I doubt I'll still think that when both of my them are teenagers.
And that's the problem - aside from this string devolving from the original "Holy ****" discussion - that we can imagine a geo-ethical ideal but in the end we still wake up in the real world. In that world, it's not whether I have 150 extra square feet in my house, but how else I consume resources.
And if the real world also says that our services are worth $75K, there's not much we can do to change that.
after reading this post it just makes me more frustrated....and not necessarily at the profession but the others that I have to work with.
the reason that we make so little is partially on the petty squabbling that happens right here – amongst the uneducated. One person feels completely satisfied making 33k after 7 years while another is rightly pissed off that the rest of his/her college grads are making twice as much. I don’t think that it’s a matter of greed but more of receiving just dues for hard work that requires a lot of knowledge and know-how. I assume that a truly greedy person wouldn’t really care to even check up on the Archinect discussion board – they’d be too busy trying to sell another track house to some unsuspecting client.
also what needs to be considered in the original post is the location of the job offer. San Francisco is either tied with NYC for housing costs or slightly below. It’s ridiculous. If you plan on owning a house on that “greedy and selfish†75k then you better think again. A couple of excerpts from the real estate market in the Bay Area. Enjoy and think twice about not going for that raise.
“The San Francisco Bay area had the highest gap in the state at $92,930, where potential homebuyers had a median household income of $67,770 but needed qualifying income of $160,700 to purchase a median-priced home at $689,240.â€Â
Oh – but you’re not going to buy a 3 bedroom house only a condo – because it’s more energy conscious – right? Another look into the world outside of Iowa with houses and combines selling for fewer than 100k.
“Condominiums
Condo inventory remains tight as 486 condos sold in Q105, the fourth decrease in as many quarters. This reflects a 12% decrease versus the previous quarter.
Despite the decrease in number sold, the average sale price of condos grew to $805,370. This reflects a 9.7% increase versus the previous quarter, a 19.6% increase versus one year prior and 85.6% higher in seven years.
Similarly, the average price per square foot increased 9.7% versus the previous quarter to $680. This is the highest average in our analysis.
Average days on market decreased for the fourth straight quarter to 30 days.
Price over asking was 7.0%, a 29-point increase over the previous quarter.
More condos were sold in District 9 than any other District (slightly above District 8). The highest priced condos were sold in District 7 (Marina/Pacific Heights) at an average of $1,037,793.
Within District 9 in 2004, more condos were sold in South Beach (47) than any other area. Mission Bay and South Beach are commanding similar prices: South Beach averages $803,537, Mission Bay averages $840,000 (based on 2 sales). However, South Beach price per square foot is highest at $812.â€Â
Income
Overview
- Real median household income remained unchanged between 2002 and 2003 at $43,318, according to a report released today by the U.S. Census Bureau.
Regions
-Real median household income remained unchanged between 2002 and 2003 in three of the four census regions  Northeast ($46,742), Midwest ($44,732) and West ($46,820). The exception was the South, where income declined 1.5 percent. The South continued to have the lowest median household income of all four regions ($39,823). The difference between median household incomes in the Northeast and West was not statistically significant.
Earnings
-Real median earnings of men age 15 and older who worked full-time, year-round in 2003 ($40,668) remained unchanged from 2002. Women with similar work experience saw their earnings decline  0.6 percent to $30,724  their first annual decline since 1995. As a result, the ratio of female-to-male earnings for full-time, year-round workers was 76 cents for every dollar in 2003, down from 77 cents for every dollar in 2002.
Poverty
Overview
-The number of people below the official poverty thresholds numbered 35.9 million in 2003, or 1.3 million more than in 2002, for a 2003 poverty rate of 12.5 percent. Although up from 2002, this rate is below the average of the 1980s and 1990s.
-The poverty rate and number of families in poverty increased from 9.6 percent and 7.2 million in 2002 to 10.0 percent and 7.6 million in 2003. The corresponding numbers for unrelated individuals in poverty in 2003 were 20.4 percent and 9.7 million (not different from 2002).
-As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2003 was $18,810; for a family of three, $14,680; for a family of two, $12,015; and for unrelated individuals, $9,393.
A short story: When I was working, I had many lunches with people of that seniority. When the check came, everyone single one of them tried to split as evenly as possible and giving as little tip as he possibly could. This was not Spago but sandwiches in a deli.
At that very instant, I thought to myself that if I am in my 40s and have to be stingy enough not to tip a $1 more, someone should shoot me. Since then, I have made observations on a general basis on people of other professions and though they may be as stingy as the architect in many things, they fared much better on loose change when going out for lunch together.
We all have our own talents and recent grads only sit on the cusp of discovering what they really do best. Raw design talent - which is the only architectural virtue valorized in school, is sabotaged or assisted by your charm, your family connections, your personal demons, etc.
I'm disturbed by the "what a loser" train of thought about both the position and the money. There is a wierd snobbery working here...
75k translates to 36 dollars an hour for a forty hour week. now this position probably requires at least 50 hours which brings it down to 28.80 an hour. that aint bad money. and the job description basically sums up what this profession is about. deal with it.
"And if the real world also says that our services are worth $75K, there's not much we can do to change that."
"28.80 an hour. that aint bad money"
Thanks guys, now we know why we get paid like shit...essentially because some of us are unwilling to change anything about the way we get aid, and most of the others have very less expectations to begin with. And thats the reason why a client will go to someone who will charge less for their services than one who will charge more and maybe do a better job.
Im not saying that all of us become SUV driving, mc mansion aspiring people, but rightly acknowledge that the amount we get paid is not at all proportional to the amount of work we do. If not please shut up and dont join in complaining about low wages and the state of the profession.
We are definitely paid less than our skills and liabilities call for. However, very often the level of attention an architect wishes to lavish on a project is uncalled for, or simply not desired. In the US, architecture is definitely a service industry, the consequence of which is client leadership; if they want cup holders, they get cup holders. In parts of Europe where the architect is still regarded as a professional, clients will defer judgement; the architect balances the clients needs with the public: neighbouring entities, cultural contexts, and so on. For various industrial reasons, architecture appears to have retained its craft sensibilities more wholely there. In the UK, which is an intersting hinge between North America and Europe, the architect is transitioning from professional to service employee.
A 'better job' can be judged in many ways. I'm sure I concur with your own evaluation, sameolddoctor, but we are architects, and architecture for architects rather misses the point. Or think of it this way: isn't there something wrong if architects care more for a project than its eventual users will? if you enjoy your job to that extent, I don't see why you shouldn't have in some way to pay for it. I've worked on small things within offices and not billed time because I knew I was doing it for my own personal enjoyment, and not to the benefit of the job or the firm. I'm not really bothered if my fish is steamed or grilled, and I wouldn't take too kindly if a chef charged me more because he or she had a personal preference for smelling fish vapour; it really would make no difference to me.
You can't take it with you. Give birth to a plumber and you will have it made. Who gives a shit. Ship High in Transit. People come to architects for a unique thing. A thing that they and only they only can provide - - - for 150k with the help of 75k little old you of course.
Someone has to do it. But if you do it, do it like the arrow shot from the bow. Not with a regret or a second thought.
Holy#### Is this what one looks forward to as an architect?!
Note job description and salary versus qualifications & yrs experience!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Senior Architect
Primarily responsibility is to oversee production and coordination of construction documents.
Qualifications:
15+ years of experience in CD and CA project phases.
Thorough understanding of building codes.
Proficiency in the assembly of complete and coordinated construction documents.
High level of proficiency in construction technology and architectural detailing.
Best suited experience is in commercial, Type V construction, especially with CMU and wood frame structure.
AutoCAD proficiency and architectural license are preferred.
Salary, in the range of 75k, will depend on experience.
[Firm name redacted]
***** Design
San Francisco, CA 94105
Phone:
Fax:
ubetcha
Second that: never above 100K unless you become a senior associates in one of those bigger offices, or run your own "profitable" practice.
or maybe sell drugs on the side.
ugottit
amen
imagine that 15 years of experience and only 75K...wow.
Way worse than the pay, look at the job description! Senior architect to oversee construction documents?
aww... this is sad.
so really the only way to rock this profession is to open your own arch/design firm!
damn.
just a QC guy, we have one of those, but he does more...
Fuck em all, time for the revolution, viva la revolucion!
hey you guys
is 75k supposed to be bad, i've been looking forward to being poor and over-educated my whole life. I think i'd be a better liberal that way actually....don't pay me too much i'll just spend it anyway
lessee....commercial and type V...must be small strip malls. who the hell builds anything commercial out of type V except single story small strips or TI's.
15 years experience to do that????
How complex are the building codes for type V??????
an architectural license is preferred for a senior architect - requirements are getting a bit more relaxed eh?
things don't quite add up here for me...
marry rich, I did
yep, a QC guy.. we have one too..
not a job for me, but believe me, there are people perfect for this.
a kind of person who settled down long time ago..
And it's 75K to live in San Francisco! That means you'll be living in a box behind one of your Type V commercial strip malls.
Signum..I second that.. QUE VIVA LA REVOLUCION!! De donde eres signum?
Just look at the bright side. The bad pay is a perfect motivation to get out of architecture. It doesn’t matter what you do once you get out, you’ll be making way more money. So don’t laugh at the guy who works at Mcdonald’s. 10 years down the line he’ll be the regional manager and making over 100k.
Yeah, my friend that worked for Starbucks, with 2 years working there, was offerend a managerial job that paid more than any entry level arch job.
Pathetic, really - no education (he had his GED, but no degrees, although I will say he's one of the most intelligent people I know and just got his Bachelor's), little training, and he's going to make much more than the typical graduate with 2 degrees!
Someone remind me...why did we all get into this??
wake up clones. youve been had.
run for the exists like thousands of others before you.
One thing to point out. You guys on here always seem to look down at the more pragmatic, construction-type architect jobs. There is nothing better or worse about these jobs than being a "designer" other than theres more chance for ego-inflation with being a "designer."
But other than that, this job is super necessary to the profession.. so they pay may not be what someone at Kraft Foods makes as a CEO, but the job is a good job. and an important one. So, please, stop being such snobs. And please stop thinking that making a lot of money is the most important aspect of your life. As long as you have work you enjoy, and make enough money to live life, you should be happy. Lets not complain were not paid like the same CEOs or Lawyers who have accelerated the gap between rich and super poor.
TRACE...IT CERTAINLY WASN'T TO SPEND 15 YEARS WORKING FOR OTHER PEOPLE JUST SO I CAN OVERSEE CD'S. AND MY GUESS IS THAT 75K IN SAN FRAN ISN'T GOING FAR EITHER.
norm - yup, that's why I left a large firm 6 months out of grad school and never looked back at being employed by an architect - that was in 2000.
hotsies - "There is nothing better or worse about these jobs than being a "designer" other than theres more chance for ego-inflation with being a "designer.""
Well, depends on how you look at it. Let's say you were a politician and sold out, taking the $$ to promote large corps, anti environ, etc., would that be good? While not entirely comparable, it's similar. Good design, the kind most of us want to do, help contribute to an attractive surrounds that will be here for many, many years. The impact can be huge.
So take the $$'s, I have no problem with that, I sure want them. But the $$ aren't so great to offset the destruction of personal pride and community awareness/contribution. I chose to leave it all together, rather than make stuff I hate.
“And please stop thinking that making a lot of money is the most important aspect of your lifeâ€Â
Who’s talking about making lots of money? We just want to make enough money to pay off the student loan, the mortgage, the car note, the insurance and an occasional trip to the buffet. Is that too much to ask for?
Harold. 75$. puts you in the top 2% of the world population.
that isnt enough for you?
Trace. The job listing doesnt mention anything about "selling out" or the nature of the projects.. only the job responsibility.
Yours silly argument with politicians is not helpful, because its not the same. Theres nothing more moral about HdM work than there is about HOKs work. Just a difference of interest in the profession.
start your own company. make a lot of money developing houses and build cool stuff with your revenue.
That may be true, but doing responsible development work versus doing strip malls does have a moral component to it. Adding to car centered sprawl does impact communities negatively.
I looked up the median home price in SF.. $404,500
That's going to be hard to swing on 75k. It's not working for minimum wage, obviously, but I think most of us hope to be valued (or value ourselves currently) at a higher pay rate.
hotsies...
it might be the fact that you are content with making 75K after 15 years of sweating it out. And really, thats a virtue.
But for most of the rest of us, its a bit less. Im assuming that you are single, no grown-up kids etc etc. Imagine sending your kid to college in the US and spending around 40K per annum per kid. what are you left with??? a ridiculous amount of say, 10K for the whole year??? (deduct taxes from the 75K = 50K)...If your spouse is working too, add a bit more money to that equation. But its hardly enough to make a semi-decent living with that kind of money in a place like SF.
on a funny note, if you happen to make more than 75K after 15 years, hit me up on my email address and send the excess amount to me, i sure could use it.
Thats true as well.
But making a project with exquistite materials, and super expensive paints, metals, etc. (rem, Hdm, etc).. is just as "amoral" in a geo-ethical sense as well, because theres nothing about expensive materials that is "fair" to labor.
so. before, everony goes and condemns strip malls because they add one kind of damage. consider the other kind as well. and again.
75K. thats plenty to live on. you may not be trump. but if we all start trying to make hundreds of thousands of dollars, then it only means that money comes from the exploitation of another group of people.
you dont make lots of money by being fair, you know.
yes trace but can your friend make a really good frappa-cinno-mocha sludge???
If I could buy a house in SF for $404,500, I'd be there in a heartbeat, but the fact is that most go for well over $600K. Now think two incomes at $75K with two kids, which is likely if you've been working for 15 years. That means you want a 3bd house. You would need about $120K downpayment, and your payments would be about $3,000 per month. Add $500 per month in property tax. Add insurance. Add all the other life expenses and you're beyond broke.
Yes, 75K is more than 98% of people in the world make, but that doesn't mean you're rich. As for exploiting other people, I think we all participate in exploitation to the extent we are consumers. Our quality of living (whatever that means) comes on the backs of people working hard for very little in other countries without the protections we have in this one. But opting out of the system completely doesn't accomplish anything either.
Personally, I would take a 75K job in SF, but not the one advertised. If I'm sacrificing income to be in Architecture, then I need to be rewarded in some other way, like in the quality of the work or the quality of the work environment.
Alt+0241..
after the discussion of "strip malls" and the morality assumed by those who design them became part of this discussion.. is it responsible to think you need a 3 bedroom house, when really a 2 brd condo would do finr?
hotsies,
please dont try to impose your lifestyle and its ramifications on a general discussion board. Sure many people live with families of 4 in 70 sq. yards apartments, but that is again not what most people want to do after working for 15 years.
Sure earning money is transfer from the pockets of one group of people to the other, but the fact is that at the end of the day one wants to be rewarded for their work and intellectual property.
sameold..
i agree.
and people should be able to live how they want to.
but then if thats true. people on this thread shouldnt have been condeming the stripmall suburb lifestyle as if it were flawed.
that was my point. not that somenoe wanting a 3bdrm house is wrong.
just that if wnating a big house is wrong, then its silly to listen to that person complain about suburbs.
is 75 K supposed to be bad? 99.9 percent of the people I know would be more than comfortable with that salary. Shit...if that was the maximum salary I ever made I would be more than satisfied.
ok i'll jump back in. the 3 bd. house was hypothetical, but I don't think it's inappropriate for a 4-person family to want a 3-bd. home. Whether that's a condo or townhome or single family house is a different matter.
I happen to be selling a 4 bedroom (semi-suburban) house right now to move to the bay area, and I can barely even trade into a 2-bedroom condo. My daughters are also very young now, and so we think 2 bedrooms will work, but I doubt I'll still think that when both of my them are teenagers.
And that's the problem - aside from this string devolving from the original "Holy ****" discussion - that we can imagine a geo-ethical ideal but in the end we still wake up in the real world. In that world, it's not whether I have 150 extra square feet in my house, but how else I consume resources.
And if the real world also says that our services are worth $75K, there's not much we can do to change that.
after reading this post it just makes me more frustrated....and not necessarily at the profession but the others that I have to work with.
the reason that we make so little is partially on the petty squabbling that happens right here – amongst the uneducated. One person feels completely satisfied making 33k after 7 years while another is rightly pissed off that the rest of his/her college grads are making twice as much. I don’t think that it’s a matter of greed but more of receiving just dues for hard work that requires a lot of knowledge and know-how. I assume that a truly greedy person wouldn’t really care to even check up on the Archinect discussion board – they’d be too busy trying to sell another track house to some unsuspecting client.
also what needs to be considered in the original post is the location of the job offer. San Francisco is either tied with NYC for housing costs or slightly below. It’s ridiculous. If you plan on owning a house on that “greedy and selfish†75k then you better think again. A couple of excerpts from the real estate market in the Bay Area. Enjoy and think twice about not going for that raise.
“The San Francisco Bay area had the highest gap in the state at $92,930, where potential homebuyers had a median household income of $67,770 but needed qualifying income of $160,700 to purchase a median-priced home at $689,240.â€Â
Oh – but you’re not going to buy a 3 bedroom house only a condo – because it’s more energy conscious – right? Another look into the world outside of Iowa with houses and combines selling for fewer than 100k.
“Condominiums
Condo inventory remains tight as 486 condos sold in Q105, the fourth decrease in as many quarters. This reflects a 12% decrease versus the previous quarter.
Despite the decrease in number sold, the average sale price of condos grew to $805,370. This reflects a 9.7% increase versus the previous quarter, a 19.6% increase versus one year prior and 85.6% higher in seven years.
Similarly, the average price per square foot increased 9.7% versus the previous quarter to $680. This is the highest average in our analysis.
Average days on market decreased for the fourth straight quarter to 30 days.
Price over asking was 7.0%, a 29-point increase over the previous quarter.
More condos were sold in District 9 than any other District (slightly above District 8). The highest priced condos were sold in District 7 (Marina/Pacific Heights) at an average of $1,037,793.
Within District 9 in 2004, more condos were sold in South Beach (47) than any other area. Mission Bay and South Beach are commanding similar prices: South Beach averages $803,537, Mission Bay averages $840,000 (based on 2 sales). However, South Beach price per square foot is highest at $812.â€Â
(excerpts)
Income
Overview
- Real median household income remained unchanged between 2002 and 2003 at $43,318, according to a report released today by the U.S. Census Bureau.
Regions
-Real median household income remained unchanged between 2002 and 2003 in three of the four census regions  Northeast ($46,742), Midwest ($44,732) and West ($46,820). The exception was the South, where income declined 1.5 percent. The South continued to have the lowest median household income of all four regions ($39,823). The difference between median household incomes in the Northeast and West was not statistically significant.
Earnings
-Real median earnings of men age 15 and older who worked full-time, year-round in 2003 ($40,668) remained unchanged from 2002. Women with similar work experience saw their earnings decline  0.6 percent to $30,724  their first annual decline since 1995. As a result, the ratio of female-to-male earnings for full-time, year-round workers was 76 cents for every dollar in 2003, down from 77 cents for every dollar in 2002.
Poverty
Overview
-The number of people below the official poverty thresholds numbered 35.9 million in 2003, or 1.3 million more than in 2002, for a 2003 poverty rate of 12.5 percent. Although up from 2002, this rate is below the average of the 1980s and 1990s.
-The poverty rate and number of families in poverty increased from 9.6 percent and 7.2 million in 2002 to 10.0 percent and 7.6 million in 2003. The corresponding numbers for unrelated individuals in poverty in 2003 were 20.4 percent and 9.7 million (not different from 2002).
-As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2003 was $18,810; for a family of three, $14,680; for a family of two, $12,015; and for unrelated individuals, $9,393.
one-room sans bath?
Median in corta medera, maybe if you're lucky
A short story: When I was working, I had many lunches with people of that seniority. When the check came, everyone single one of them tried to split as evenly as possible and giving as little tip as he possibly could. This was not Spago but sandwiches in a deli.
At that very instant, I thought to myself that if I am in my 40s and have to be stingy enough not to tip a $1 more, someone should shoot me. Since then, I have made observations on a general basis on people of other professions and though they may be as stingy as the architect in many things, they fared much better on loose change when going out for lunch together.
yea, if we flaunt out starving artist persona, thats what we will get in return, i guess
We all have our own talents and recent grads only sit on the cusp of discovering what they really do best. Raw design talent - which is the only architectural virtue valorized in school, is sabotaged or assisted by your charm, your family connections, your personal demons, etc.
I'm disturbed by the "what a loser" train of thought about both the position and the money. There is a wierd snobbery working here...
75k translates to 36 dollars an hour for a forty hour week. now this position probably requires at least 50 hours which brings it down to 28.80 an hour. that aint bad money. and the job description basically sums up what this profession is about. deal with it.
"And if the real world also says that our services are worth $75K, there's not much we can do to change that."
"28.80 an hour. that aint bad money"
Thanks guys, now we know why we get paid like shit...essentially because some of us are unwilling to change anything about the way we get aid, and most of the others have very less expectations to begin with. And thats the reason why a client will go to someone who will charge less for their services than one who will charge more and maybe do a better job.
Im not saying that all of us become SUV driving, mc mansion aspiring people, but rightly acknowledge that the amount we get paid is not at all proportional to the amount of work we do. If not please shut up and dont join in complaining about low wages and the state of the profession.
We are definitely paid less than our skills and liabilities call for. However, very often the level of attention an architect wishes to lavish on a project is uncalled for, or simply not desired. In the US, architecture is definitely a service industry, the consequence of which is client leadership; if they want cup holders, they get cup holders. In parts of Europe where the architect is still regarded as a professional, clients will defer judgement; the architect balances the clients needs with the public: neighbouring entities, cultural contexts, and so on. For various industrial reasons, architecture appears to have retained its craft sensibilities more wholely there. In the UK, which is an intersting hinge between North America and Europe, the architect is transitioning from professional to service employee.
A 'better job' can be judged in many ways. I'm sure I concur with your own evaluation, sameolddoctor, but we are architects, and architecture for architects rather misses the point. Or think of it this way: isn't there something wrong if architects care more for a project than its eventual users will? if you enjoy your job to that extent, I don't see why you shouldn't have in some way to pay for it. I've worked on small things within offices and not billed time because I knew I was doing it for my own personal enjoyment, and not to the benefit of the job or the firm. I'm not really bothered if my fish is steamed or grilled, and I wouldn't take too kindly if a chef charged me more because he or she had a personal preference for smelling fish vapour; it really would make no difference to me.
You can't take it with you. Give birth to a plumber and you will have it made. Who gives a shit. Ship High in Transit. People come to architects for a unique thing. A thing that they and only they only can provide - - - for 150k with the help of 75k little old you of course.
Someone has to do it. But if you do it, do it like the arrow shot from the bow. Not with a regret or a second thought.
If it suits you and only if it suits you.
wise words there care to explain
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