No, not the dreaded sentence cops say when they pull you over. I am referring to the architecture education/practice. Architectural education in the United Kingdom, leading to registration as an architect with the Architects Registration Board of the United Kingdom, consists of five years of full time study together with two years of practical experience and part time study and requires successful completion of the three stages of the RIBA exams. The structure is usually as follows:
3 years undergraduate BSc Degree = RIBA part 1
1 year in practice
2 years postgraduate Diploma = RIBA part 2
2nd year of Professional Practice = RIBA part 3
What are the equivalents of Parts 1, 2, and 3? Is an M.Arch from the US equivalent to a RIBA part 2?
How is registration/license granted in other countries in europe?
I got my B.Arch (professional degree) from Cornell and soon I will start my M.Arch II in Usa, but I'm thinking of working in EU / UK (w/EU passport)
i just got my new arb application from the uk this week and have been going back and fort with someone there. i am licensed for many years in the us and have live + practice in uk 5 years.
you have to now apply for both part I and part II equivalance for anyone not educated in the UK approved part I + II programs. that then give your the right to take part III coursework. application fee: £2,000. for part I + II equivalancy only plus course fees, test fees etc. even if you take a UK MArch, it does not give you approval for either degree. out of luck mate, as the bloak from arb told me. there is only one thing equivalant to a riba part II and that is a riba part II.
if you are a born national of europe, once you get licensed in any european country, receipocity is easier. but if you were born outside of europe but hold a eurpean passport, reciporcity is the same as if you are american. start from scratch.
arb and riba are in a rowe over this change. when you get closer to going check again. keep an eye on bdonline or riba journal for updates.
If I tell you, will you let me borrow that EU passport whilst you do your MArch II?
Just kidding, I really don't know. But it seems like it would be equivalent, since to even take the ARE in the US you need at least 5 years of study and 3 years total of practice, which almost never happens in the time span of 3 years. It sounds like you'll have at least 6 years of study by the time you're done? So you should be golden....
prior to oct 2004, if you were licensed in the US, by submitting your education transcripts and copy of licensed you could get Part II equivalncy [it was about £300]
trust me, there is not logic here. after reviewing the package i enquired about a 'distinguished achievement route' which i might go for..... the us MArch is not equivalant to any riba Part I or II nor is the UK March equivlant to any riba Part I or II.
the email from the fellow at arb to me earlier this week.....
TED,
Thank you for getting back to us. If you intend to make use of the Prescribed Examination system that replaced the assessment system on 29 October 2004, then you will need to apply for both Part 1 and Part 2 as this requirement is written into the eligibility requirement for Part 2 in the procedures. Full details of this may now be seen at:
We do not have a formal application for the Distinguished Achievements route. If you wish to make use of this, you should write to us at ARB and enclose all the evidence called for in 'routes' together with the application fee of £1000.00 (fees are detailed at http://www.arb.org.uk/registration/fees-2005.shtml ) . It will then be put to the Board's distinguished achievements group which considers these sorts of application. I attach a copy of the relevant guidance as a Word document for your convenience.
Thank you for the knowledge fellow archinecters……
TED- the accuracy of your information is worthy of a surgical procedure/operation……I was born outside the EU, so George Orwell's "all animals are equal, some animals are more equal than others" applies to my case unfortunately…..
The thing is, they supply a lot of information, but for some reason, you are left with more questions than you originally had!
They treat the registration process as if you were a country applying to get EU citizenship!!
I guess I will have to worry about it when I'm finishing my masters……..but these 'obstacles' have not hindered my enthusiasm to go to the UK……..
One more question, if you get the coveted prize, the RIBA Part 3, are you done with taking tests worldwide? I mean, if one were to return to the USA for example, you wouldn't have to gain 2 years worth of experience AND get tested again, right? (I'm excepting a surprise or two form the other side as well)
I guess these steps add 'prestige' to the institutions….
WonderK-
I don't know about your physical attributes/appearance
But if you have a 'Sicilian' look+close to 183 cm, you'll be good to go I think!
unfortunately, us like uk are protectionist. us gives you no credit for registration outside us. when you work abroad, you can get your idp credits as long work in an office with a us licensed arch. but as you already have a barch, you might already have your idp crap done.
also when you look at the details of what they think the Part I + Part II student has learned v. us schools -- its just bs. while i apprecitate part III professional ptractice, contracts and such, along with real experience in the UK, the rest is clearly just to protect the uk profession from qualified architect marching through the elastice european boarders. in places like france + spain, when you graduate you are licensed as supposedly you taken test in school. uk cant give any preferenctial treatment to any country hence made the rule to make it the most difficult for what they precieve as the least qualified 'licensed' arch bouncing in and setting up shop.
"...the us MArch is not equivalant to any riba Part I or II nor is the UK March equivlant to any riba Part I or II."
What is the RIBA part I and II then? Does the UK offer an MArch degree that doesn't qualify for their own standards? It seems very confusing/frustrating....
I'm paying attention because I have a more than passing interest in working in the UK...of course my chances are terrible at best given that I am the worst of pariahs, born in the US and nothing but a US passport, but I can dream.
wonder K- hope is the last thing to die........
I got this from the good people at the Bartlett in London via email:
"We also offer an M.Arch in Architectural Design course which is not a professional one and so completing it will not qualify you to practice. It is purely a master's course that is specifically for qualified architects who wish to develop their design skills. "
I guess if you have a US M.Arch/M.Arch II they don't qualify as RIBA part 1 or 2, meaning you are not excempt from taking the RIBA part 1 and 2 tests..........
In NL...
It's quite simple, if you live in NL and you have a diploma you can register at architectenregister. It costs 50 euro a year plus 50 euro extra first time.
You don't need any practical experience what so ever.
If you don't have a diploma you can proof them your skills and get a license (don't know how easy/hard this is)
Furthermore...an architect is not a protected profession here, so everybody can design buildings etcetera, you are just not allowed to call yourself or your company architect(ure)
A further example might illuminate...A US educated and registered architect, registered in Germany (or any other european country for that matter) does not immediately have the right to the term Architect in the UK. The ARB will require the £2000.00 fee and often ARBitrary interview which follows, since their education would have been from outside an EU member country.
Moral of the day...Unless one plans on operating as a sole practice architect, you can get away with not being registered and carry working anyways.
Check the ARB page and write to them - they do ask for a 2 years experience with a UK registered architect (they definitely do not recognize experience from other EU countries, so I guess they will not recognize US experience).
As dolomite said you might find it easier to work for someone for a while while you try to sort it out.
correct -- the dip or barch in uk leading to partII is a 2 year course of study with external examiners reviewing your full coursework at the end of the session to determine if you meet the checklist. the UK March is not Part II and is 1 to 1.5 years and is considered a post-professional degree.
as i understand it, you dont take a test, its to review your credentials and experience [and to pay a big fee] to determine if you meet the standard. if you pass, you then take part III coursework [which you must do in the uk, can be 1 day per month for a year or 2 solid weeks] then take your exams. you can not call yourself an arch in the uk until you pass your part III.
its not unlike the method foriegn educated archs have to go through here to have their experience equalized with the NAAB standards. it used to be, foriegn educated had to apply to u of min and pay $1000. you had to produce original drawings etc from your course and have all you stuff translated into english. only then would they allow you to enter the idp track.
practicing in the uk is different that the us and the part III course has much to do about contracts, admin etc. not bad stuff to focus on.
Basicly the ARB are on a massive revenue gathering exercise. I've given up any thoughts of trying to register here now. I would have to pay massive amounts to first of all site the equiavlency test dispite the fact that my school got a 5 year accreditation from the Commonwealth Institute of Architects. Then pay another £2000 to register. I don't even know if I could lay my hands on every piece of work I ever did at school.
The interview is only 45mins! The ARB are just ticking boxes and lining their own pockets.
Maybe I should be a project manager instead: one tenth the work, three times the pay.
*Sigh*
Question: In the US is a bachelor of architecture only 3 years?
antipod- B. Arch in the US are usually 4 years (non-professional degree) or 5 years (professional degree). If you opt for the first option, you will need to get a 3-3.5 years M.Arch (professional degree). If you opt for the second, you can get an M.Arch II (post-professional degree) in 1-2 years.......you need one professional degree to satisfy the academic requirement to register (you also need to get work experience 2-3 years and pass a test)........
Relatively speaking, it it safe to say that pay in Uk is higher than in rest of europe for a starting architect?
'...it is safe to say that pay in Uk is higher than in rest of europe for a starting architect?'
not sure about that one - what references are you using. It may be true but the cost of living is quite high in the UK so the value of pay is diminished.
yeah BOTS, that's exactly what I was thinking, and I'm glad you joined this discussion and taking time off the UK election!! Hehehehe.....
my friend recently has gotten a job at Zaha Hadid's office and the pay there seems to revolve around the magic number of 1k pounds/monthly. That's more than Italy from my personal experience........because in italy you are in very good shape if you get 1k euros/monthly, and my friend gets paid 8 euros per hour in barcelona....
Living expense and basically everything costs more in UK (especially London), so i presume the wages would be slightly higher than anywhere else....
The high prices won't impede people from purchasing Chelsea FC kits though...........especially now..............
London has a recognised salary weighting of up to £5000 on your standard salary. This can be calculated using your distance from the centre as the variable. Generally salaries are not increased on a percentage basis.
Interns can expect between £12,000 - £25,000 pre qualification, depending on experience.
hmmmm 12k a month............isn't that what Mourinho gets a day? I'm not the biggest fan of the guy, especially after what he said about barcelona..........
barbaric, I've worked in italy and UK now, and I can say that in proportion to what you spend you are definitely left with more in UK. On the other hand what you get when you start is not an awful lot (it could be a little more than 1k/month in london), and the problem is that they usually don't recognize any foreign work experience (or at least it is not valid as much as british exp.).
good luck
don't compare apples with pears. gross income isn't net income. In Germany, for instance, taxation is much higher - so 36000 Euros gross income will only show up as 20400 Euros on your bank account. However, in the UK the equivalent 25000 GBP will bring 18500 Pounds in the bank and that is roughly 26800 Euros! That's 6400 Euros more cash in your pocket. The cost of living of course is another matter.
regarding income at star-architects:
it's not really very sensible to use the salary Zaha Hadid pays as an indicator of what a typical salary is. In fact salaries at star-architects seem to be globally the same magic 1000 no matter what the currency. Those firms bank on their reputation as the currency in which staff will be renumerated.
regarding licensing in Europe:
as far as I understand, once you're qualified to call yourself an architect in one of the countries of the EU you can take that title to any other country and register with the national registration board. Every country has different procedures of how to become an architect - I think it's easiest in Greece. But once you're an architect in Greece you should be able to register in the UK.
@barbaric: So do you know what the registration procedure is in Greece? I think you just need a qualified university degree and can practice straight away.
In Germany you need a qualified degree and two years of pracitcal experience, but there is no extra exam as in the UK.
for UK reciporcity to EEU nationals, it says that you have 1] be nationalized in that county [passport] 2]hold an architects qualification in that coutry 3]have either 2 years practical training experience in that country or 4 years in germany
Im right in the middle of London and I seem to be doing pretty good based on that survey. It all depends on your experience. Local experience that is. I suspect the RIBA set is closer to the truth tho http://www.riba-jobs.com/Salary1.htm I should be earning a few thousand a year more by my calculations. Hmm. Maybe i should start learning Greek?
i lived near highbury barn and off highbury fields....its lovely. the No. 9 is splendid. and the what can you say wrong about the tube. near lond met. good worker cafes for stoggy tea. near arsenal.
I live in Angel...walk to work in 15 mins. It's great. The undergorund is pretty good but i'm still very glad i'm not spending 1.5hrs on it every day with some sweaty dude's armpit in my face like when I was living in Wembley.
Apartments/flats all depend on what you want and what you've got to spend. Be aware that some boroughs have extortionate council taxes. See if you can find a place where it's built into the rent. I have to say I love east london even though (or perhaps because) it's so far from the multitudes of my countrymen.
License and registration in EU / UK
No, not the dreaded sentence cops say when they pull you over. I am referring to the architecture education/practice. Architectural education in the United Kingdom, leading to registration as an architect with the Architects Registration Board of the United Kingdom, consists of five years of full time study together with two years of practical experience and part time study and requires successful completion of the three stages of the RIBA exams. The structure is usually as follows:
3 years undergraduate BSc Degree = RIBA part 1
1 year in practice
2 years postgraduate Diploma = RIBA part 2
2nd year of Professional Practice = RIBA part 3
What are the equivalents of Parts 1, 2, and 3? Is an M.Arch from the US equivalent to a RIBA part 2?
How is registration/license granted in other countries in europe?
I got my B.Arch (professional degree) from Cornell and soon I will start my M.Arch II in Usa, but I'm thinking of working in EU / UK (w/EU passport)
cheers!
i just got my new arb application from the uk this week and have been going back and fort with someone there. i am licensed for many years in the us and have live + practice in uk 5 years.
you have to now apply for both part I and part II equivalance for anyone not educated in the UK approved part I + II programs. that then give your the right to take part III coursework. application fee: £2,000. for part I + II equivalancy only plus course fees, test fees etc. even if you take a UK MArch, it does not give you approval for either degree. out of luck mate, as the bloak from arb told me. there is only one thing equivalant to a riba part II and that is a riba part II.
if you are a born national of europe, once you get licensed in any european country, receipocity is easier. but if you were born outside of europe but hold a eurpean passport, reciporcity is the same as if you are american. start from scratch.
arb and riba are in a rowe over this change. when you get closer to going check again. keep an eye on bdonline or riba journal for updates.
If I tell you, will you let me borrow that EU passport whilst you do your MArch II?
Just kidding, I really don't know. But it seems like it would be equivalent, since to even take the ARE in the US you need at least 5 years of study and 3 years total of practice, which almost never happens in the time span of 3 years. It sounds like you'll have at least 6 years of study by the time you're done? So you should be golden....
but what do I know!?!
I do love it when they have rows in the UK, which is basically always
prior to oct 2004, if you were licensed in the US, by submitting your education transcripts and copy of licensed you could get Part II equivalncy [it was about £300]
trust me, there is not logic here. after reviewing the package i enquired about a 'distinguished achievement route' which i might go for..... the us MArch is not equivalant to any riba Part I or II nor is the UK March equivlant to any riba Part I or II.
the email from the fellow at arb to me earlier this week.....
TED,
Thank you for getting back to us. If you intend to make use of the Prescribed Examination system that replaced the assessment system on 29 October 2004, then you will need to apply for both Part 1 and Part 2 as this requirement is written into the eligibility requirement for Part 2 in the procedures. Full details of this may now be seen at:
www.arb.org.uk/registration/prescribed-examination-process-documents.shtml
We do not have a formal application for the Distinguished Achievements route. If you wish to make use of this, you should write to us at ARB and enclose all the evidence called for in 'routes' together with the application fee of £1000.00 (fees are detailed at http://www.arb.org.uk/registration/fees-2005.shtml ) . It will then be put to the Board's distinguished achievements group which considers these sorts of application. I attach a copy of the relevant guidance as a Word document for your convenience.
If I can clarify anything, do let me know.
Sincerely,
the arb man.....
how british of him!!
Thank you for the knowledge fellow archinecters……
TED- the accuracy of your information is worthy of a surgical procedure/operation……I was born outside the EU, so George Orwell's "all animals are equal, some animals are more equal than others" applies to my case unfortunately…..
The thing is, they supply a lot of information, but for some reason, you are left with more questions than you originally had!
They treat the registration process as if you were a country applying to get EU citizenship!!
I guess I will have to worry about it when I'm finishing my masters……..but these 'obstacles' have not hindered my enthusiasm to go to the UK……..
One more question, if you get the coveted prize, the RIBA Part 3, are you done with taking tests worldwide? I mean, if one were to return to the USA for example, you wouldn't have to gain 2 years worth of experience AND get tested again, right? (I'm excepting a surprise or two form the other side as well)
I guess these steps add 'prestige' to the institutions….
WonderK-
I don't know about your physical attributes/appearance
But if you have a 'Sicilian' look+close to 183 cm, you'll be good to go I think!
barbaric,
unfortunately, us like uk are protectionist. us gives you no credit for registration outside us. when you work abroad, you can get your idp credits as long work in an office with a us licensed arch. but as you already have a barch, you might already have your idp crap done.
also when you look at the details of what they think the Part I + Part II student has learned v. us schools -- its just bs. while i apprecitate part III professional ptractice, contracts and such, along with real experience in the UK, the rest is clearly just to protect the uk profession from qualified architect marching through the elastice european boarders. in places like france + spain, when you graduate you are licensed as supposedly you taken test in school. uk cant give any preferenctial treatment to any country hence made the rule to make it the most difficult for what they precieve as the least qualified 'licensed' arch bouncing in and setting up shop.
hey Ted,
Could you clarify this:
"...the us MArch is not equivalant to any riba Part I or II nor is the UK March equivlant to any riba Part I or II."
What is the RIBA part I and II then? Does the UK offer an MArch degree that doesn't qualify for their own standards? It seems very confusing/frustrating....
I'm paying attention because I have a more than passing interest in working in the UK...of course my chances are terrible at best given that I am the worst of pariahs, born in the US and nothing but a US passport, but I can dream.
wonder K- hope is the last thing to die........
I got this from the good people at the Bartlett in London via email:
"We also offer an M.Arch in Architectural Design course which is not a professional one and so completing it will not qualify you to practice. It is purely a master's course that is specifically for qualified architects who wish to develop their design skills. "
I guess if you have a US M.Arch/M.Arch II they don't qualify as RIBA part 1 or 2, meaning you are not excempt from taking the RIBA part 1 and 2 tests..........
In NL...
It's quite simple, if you live in NL and you have a diploma you can register at architectenregister. It costs 50 euro a year plus 50 euro extra first time.
You don't need any practical experience what so ever.
If you don't have a diploma you can proof them your skills and get a license (don't know how easy/hard this is)
Furthermore...an architect is not a protected profession here, so everybody can design buildings etcetera, you are just not allowed to call yourself or your company architect(ure)
A further example might illuminate...A US educated and registered architect, registered in Germany (or any other european country for that matter) does not immediately have the right to the term Architect in the UK. The ARB will require the £2000.00 fee and often ARBitrary interview which follows, since their education would have been from outside an EU member country.
Moral of the day...Unless one plans on operating as a sole practice architect, you can get away with not being registered and carry working anyways.
Check the ARB page and write to them - they do ask for a 2 years experience with a UK registered architect (they definitely do not recognize experience from other EU countries, so I guess they will not recognize US experience).
As dolomite said you might find it easier to work for someone for a while while you try to sort it out.
barbaric,
correct -- the dip or barch in uk leading to partII is a 2 year course of study with external examiners reviewing your full coursework at the end of the session to determine if you meet the checklist. the UK March is not Part II and is 1 to 1.5 years and is considered a post-professional degree.
as i understand it, you dont take a test, its to review your credentials and experience [and to pay a big fee] to determine if you meet the standard. if you pass, you then take part III coursework [which you must do in the uk, can be 1 day per month for a year or 2 solid weeks] then take your exams. you can not call yourself an arch in the uk until you pass your part III.
its not unlike the method foriegn educated archs have to go through here to have their experience equalized with the NAAB standards. it used to be, foriegn educated had to apply to u of min and pay $1000. you had to produce original drawings etc from your course and have all you stuff translated into english. only then would they allow you to enter the idp track.
practicing in the uk is different that the us and the part III course has much to do about contracts, admin etc. not bad stuff to focus on.
i did find some uk schools that have a MA or MArch riba part II program --- not many though. bath and strathclyde have good programs:
www.presidentsmedals.com/pageDB.aspx?page=schoollist&country=UK
bath
edinburg
Strathclyde
royal college of art
london mets web site says they are but this link above does not identify them
Also check other countries, on the drop-down menu, such as the US:
http://www.presidentsmedals.com/pageDB.aspx?page=schoollist&country=USA
University of Maryland (BS Arch = Part 1; MArch = Part 2)
Basicly the ARB are on a massive revenue gathering exercise. I've given up any thoughts of trying to register here now. I would have to pay massive amounts to first of all site the equiavlency test dispite the fact that my school got a 5 year accreditation from the Commonwealth Institute of Architects. Then pay another £2000 to register. I don't even know if I could lay my hands on every piece of work I ever did at school.
The interview is only 45mins! The ARB are just ticking boxes and lining their own pockets.
Maybe I should be a project manager instead: one tenth the work, three times the pay.
*Sigh*
Question: In the US is a bachelor of architecture only 3 years?
antipod- B. Arch in the US are usually 4 years (non-professional degree) or 5 years (professional degree). If you opt for the first option, you will need to get a 3-3.5 years M.Arch (professional degree). If you opt for the second, you can get an M.Arch II (post-professional degree) in 1-2 years.......you need one professional degree to satisfy the academic requirement to register (you also need to get work experience 2-3 years and pass a test)........
Relatively speaking, it it safe to say that pay in Uk is higher than in rest of europe for a starting architect?
'...it is safe to say that pay in Uk is higher than in rest of europe for a starting architect?'
not sure about that one - what references are you using. It may be true but the cost of living is quite high in the UK so the value of pay is diminished.
yeah BOTS, that's exactly what I was thinking, and I'm glad you joined this discussion and taking time off the UK election!! Hehehehe.....
my friend recently has gotten a job at Zaha Hadid's office and the pay there seems to revolve around the magic number of 1k pounds/monthly. That's more than Italy from my personal experience........because in italy you are in very good shape if you get 1k euros/monthly, and my friend gets paid 8 euros per hour in barcelona....
Living expense and basically everything costs more in UK (especially London), so i presume the wages would be slightly higher than anywhere else....
The high prices won't impede people from purchasing Chelsea FC kits though...........especially now..............
....only if you are Russian!
London has a recognised salary weighting of up to £5000 on your standard salary. This can be calculated using your distance from the centre as the variable. Generally salaries are not increased on a percentage basis.
Interns can expect between £12,000 - £25,000 pre qualification, depending on experience.
Architects Salry Poll PDF download
from Hays Montrose recruitment
hmmmm 12k a month............isn't that what Mourinho gets a day? I'm not the biggest fan of the guy, especially after what he said about barcelona..........
thanks for the link BOTS
barbaric, I've worked in italy and UK now, and I can say that in proportion to what you spend you are definitely left with more in UK. On the other hand what you get when you start is not an awful lot (it could be a little more than 1k/month in london), and the problem is that they usually don't recognize any foreign work experience (or at least it is not valid as much as british exp.).
good luck
regarding income:
don't compare apples with pears. gross income isn't net income. In Germany, for instance, taxation is much higher - so 36000 Euros gross income will only show up as 20400 Euros on your bank account. However, in the UK the equivalent 25000 GBP will bring 18500 Pounds in the bank and that is roughly 26800 Euros! That's 6400 Euros more cash in your pocket. The cost of living of course is another matter.
regarding income at star-architects:
it's not really very sensible to use the salary Zaha Hadid pays as an indicator of what a typical salary is. In fact salaries at star-architects seem to be globally the same magic 1000 no matter what the currency. Those firms bank on their reputation as the currency in which staff will be renumerated.
regarding licensing in Europe:
as far as I understand, once you're qualified to call yourself an architect in one of the countries of the EU you can take that title to any other country and register with the national registration board. Every country has different procedures of how to become an architect - I think it's easiest in Greece. But once you're an architect in Greece you should be able to register in the UK.
how ironic! Greece, the first architectural civilization in europe! I suspect it's not as simple as you think sicro......
But you are currect about famous architects: they pay you little, but they give you a great name to put on your curriculum vitae.
Fair? Not for me!
@barbaric: So do you know what the registration procedure is in Greece? I think you just need a qualified university degree and can practice straight away.
In Germany you need a qualified degree and two years of pracitcal experience, but there is no extra exam as in the UK.
for UK reciporcity to EEU nationals, it says that you have 1] be nationalized in that county [passport] 2]hold an architects qualification in that coutry 3]have either 2 years practical training experience in that country or 4 years in germany
fee> 79 lbs.
Im right in the middle of London and I seem to be doing pretty good based on that survey. It all depends on your experience. Local experience that is. I suspect the RIBA set is closer to the truth tho http://www.riba-jobs.com/Salary1.htm I should be earning a few thousand a year more by my calculations. Hmm. Maybe i should start learning Greek?
This is slightly off the subject, but is Highbury+islington area the least difficult area to find an apartment? Where does everyone live/work?
By the way, the Underground is the most efficient transportation system my barbaric eyes have ever seen.......
i lived near highbury barn and off highbury fields....its lovely. the No. 9 is splendid. and the what can you say wrong about the tube. near lond met. good worker cafes for stoggy tea. near arsenal.
I live in Angel...walk to work in 15 mins. It's great. The undergorund is pretty good but i'm still very glad i'm not spending 1.5hrs on it every day with some sweaty dude's armpit in my face like when I was living in Wembley.
Apartments/flats all depend on what you want and what you've got to spend. Be aware that some boroughs have extortionate council taxes. See if you can find a place where it's built into the rent. I have to say I love east london even though (or perhaps because) it's so far from the multitudes of my countrymen.
Who are you guys/gals working for?
this is my monkey-house: www.engle.co.uk
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