If you had a job you were doing CA for in your hometown which was 25 minutes away, would you time your site visits to leave the site at 4:00 pm so you can drive back to the office for 35 minutes then go back home at 5:00pm?
Generally, when this situation comes up, I ask my boss if it is ok to not return to the office. The answer has always been yes. Therefore, whenever possible, I arrange for meetings to be within the late afternoon. Its a perk, as far as an architects perks go...
We have one of those in my office. If he goes home early his wife thinks he's not busy. If he got home early she'd think he wasn't doing a good job. Apparently it's easier to make the drive than to explain an early arrival to the wife.
I am commenting on the stratetic timing of the site visit. The site visit could be first thing in the morning - leave your house, go to site, arrive at work late morning for a near full day. It could be the last thing.
Or you can arrive at the office, drink a cup of coffee, then head back for a site visit around 9.
If I learned by example, this is what I would do. Milking it, I mean.
There is also a lot of this: if company car is gone, then you go do your site visit so you can get $.40 for every mile on your own car. You can consistently get several hundred dollars ($400 not kidding) in expense account checks each month.
Theres so many things the principals do like this. Is this typical or is it thier right since it's their company?
Hmmm, why don't we ever make a profit?
I think we need a "suggestions" box. I would suggest not doing either of these things.
There is also the "diguising" of site visits. It just so works out someone has been going to a site (long standing project, multi-phase healthcare campus) not for architectural reasons, but for weekly doctor appointments. I just figured this out when they let something slip.
Can an intern point this kind of stuff out without appearing the tattle-tale? Can I say, hey uh blockheads, maybe this kinda stuff is the problem?
At my employer there is a whole section in our employee handbook on this type of stuff. Much of it has to do with reimbursement for miles if your go to the site from your home or go home from the site. Basically says they pay only miles 1/2 way if you do this if it at all shortens your trip. I'd say it's loosely enforced but good idea to have a policy in writing.
As for other random things people do to "milk the system" it sure ain't unique to architecture firms. If management are the ones doing this it's tough to do much about it other than move to a more ethical employer. If it's just your co-workers I'd alert management. They are costing the company money, thus you, and I think most managers would be perceptive to any employee looking to "lean" up the bottom line.
Strawbeary: I think your constant close examination of the workings of your office is great. You'll probably be a very good manager and/or principal some day.
I don't think it's in your best interest to "tattle" about any of this. In some cases there may even be information that you don't have that would explain some of the behavior that you're witnessing.
Some thoughts:
It obvously does seem inefficient for someone to be timing their meetings to be driving back to the office just as the day ends. This may indeed be someone who has found a great way to procrastinate (though personally I'd rather be working in the office than driving.) However, I don't think he/she is making a killing on the expensed mileage. Operating a car actually does cost about 38 cents per mile (for gas, routine maintenance, etc.) - so yes, driving uneccessary miles will cost the firm, but it won't really pad the paycheck of the driver much, as he's just putting wear on his own car.
Regarding the doctor's appointments: again, yes this may be a case of someone "cheating" their hours a little. But there are some other things to consider:
Is this person a salaried employee? If so he or she must be paid for the whole day for any day in which he/she works any part of that day. Some firms do have elaborate "makeup time" schemes for doctors appointments and personal errands, but most assume that someone salaried is going to put in the hours to get their work done and take a reasonable amount of personal time as needed for appointments and such. Especially at the level of a manager or principal this is expected, acceptable, and not something that probably needs to be brought to anyone's attention.
Also: are you 100% sure that the management is not aware of this person's situation? I once had a health issue that required periodic appointments over the course of some months. It wasn't something I wanted to discuss widely within the whole firm, but the principal was aware of my schedule needs, and we did write the time in on the firm-wide calendar as job-related, just to maintain some privacy.
It seems to me that if these issues are happening at the level of the owners/principals of this firm that there's little you could do that would have a positive outcome.
If it is happening at the level of managers, production, interns, etc. then it probably has or will come under notice of the principals if it passes their "threshold of tolerance." Let them deal with it.
In my experience firms that have very strict policies about making up every doctor's appointment and/or not leaving early on occasion are also firms that have other unpleasant rules and monitoring (such as logging all your internet time.) I think a more tolerant and flexible workplace is usually desirable. People who are seriously taking advantage of the system will usually be dealt with eventually.
I get NZD$0.61 for every kilometre I travel. Last week I did 150k's so I get back $91.50 tax free - this is a standard rate. I like to travel as much as possible for obvious reasons...
presumably that's for business-related travel! how loose are the rules on what you can deduct? i suppose you could write off a lot as 'site research'...
it depends on if you are being paid by the hour. Or just have something important you want to finish at work. It happens to me alot - I wouldn't say 25 minutes out of my way, but considerable still.
one word for you, zipcar. Well, our company seems to be using this service quite often lately (those of us who don't have a car, or don't want to use theirs) But getting back to the point...If person x's meeting is over @ 4pm and they are going to return to the office for 35 min...just go home!
I have been in this situation many times in the past...for example: I recently had a project, which included weekly visits to the site every Friday Morning...It just so happens that the site is just 10 min. from my old school, and my favorite coffee house. When our meetings ran short, I would swing by and sit there sipping my coffee/reading the paper for a little while, or drop in on some crit...etc. Our contract allowed for 4 hour meetings over 8 weeks...if the meeting is 1hr long...I take an extra hour and then head back to the office.
I am looking forward to doing CA for my proj. in NYC, I figure...fly/take train once a week (I am going to lobby for it being Fridays!). I can possibly make the CA visit into a long weekend (at my expense)
I think that’s totally neurotic, especially for a principal. I mean, it’s his firm isn’t it. Even if he was an employee he could just say “I scheduled the meeting with some extra time in case it ran late, it didn’t but it wasn’t worth driving all the way back so I went home a bit earlyâ€Â. As a principal he shouldn’t have to say shit.
Anyway, it’s only a problem if he won’t stay late when there is a deadline or if he doesn’t give other s the same bit of slack. Next time he does it you should light heartedly tease him for being irrational. “You drive all the way back her to do half an hour of work?â€Â
He’ll either stop do it because he knows people notice or else he’ll just cop to it and hopefully cut you the same break later.
agfa8x - yes, business related. That rate is the standard rate as per the AA's [Automobile Association] recommendation.
I am in the fortunate position of meeting and securing new clients, so I get to travel alot...
to newstreamlinedmodel; I agree that the principal should be able to go home if his meeting is over early, but then, he employs people like strawbeary who watch everything he does, and questions it. Maybe he feels guilty that the staff is still slaving away at the office. Maybe he feels like he needs to check up on staff and make sure they are not logging their 27th post of the day on archinect.
Concerning all of the principals charging off personal expenses as office expenses: they are tax cheats. If they own the company, they are not 'stealing' from the company, since they get the profits as income, but they are stealing from all taxpayers who have to come up with additional tax money because they did not pay it. It runs rampant in this industry, jsut like ost waitresses don;t report all of their tips. This does not justify it of course- it is still up to the individual to do what they need to do to sleep at night.
On the other hand, I have had employees who leave everyday with two of the office free soda's "for the ride home", take rolls of paper towels, schedule site visits near their house and try to charge off the half hour of travel time they did not make, spend hours per day on the phone, on the internet, etc and try to charge it to jobs, etc. It is not just principals who can have no ethics.
personally i think maestro nailed it...who goes home at 5?
secondly...who knows how long a site visit is going to go?..i never
know how long a meeting will go...you can kind of control that, but
for the most part site meetings are variable. i personally wouldn't
drive back to the office for only a half hour of work...
BUT..archie...there have also been plenty of times that i've stayed
late at a site and not charged the firm...worked late or on weekends
and not charged for every hour...been way underpaid for what i
was doing, but realised that my boss was just trying to stay afloat.
blatant disregard of the rules..ie being on the phone/internet for
hours isn't acceptable...but not working a half hour after a site visit
isn't going to sink the firm...most likely that half hour can get
charged back to the company/client you were on site with. not
completely ethical..but i doubt that it doesn't happen ten fold in
other business venues...
Anyone do this?
If you had a job you were doing CA for in your hometown which was 25 minutes away, would you time your site visits to leave the site at 4:00 pm so you can drive back to the office for 35 minutes then go back home at 5:00pm?
no way i would drive back to the office after leaving a meeting at 4pm... i would just go home.
unless there was a lot of work to do, then i would go back to the office and stay until 7 or 8.
if i was stoopid
...if you were a principal?
Are we going to be tested on this? Because my calculator needs a new battery.....
It seems to me like a huge waste of gas esp. since it's going to average $2.35 a gallon in May.
Generally, when this situation comes up, I ask my boss if it is ok to not return to the office. The answer has always been yes. Therefore, whenever possible, I arrange for meetings to be within the late afternoon. Its a perk, as far as an architects perks go...
Depends on the drive.
who's going to be waiting for me in the xerox room
We have one of those in my office. If he goes home early his wife thinks he's not busy. If he got home early she'd think he wasn't doing a good job. Apparently it's easier to make the drive than to explain an early arrival to the wife.
I am commenting on the stratetic timing of the site visit. The site visit could be first thing in the morning - leave your house, go to site, arrive at work late morning for a near full day. It could be the last thing.
Or you can arrive at the office, drink a cup of coffee, then head back for a site visit around 9.
If I learned by example, this is what I would do. Milking it, I mean.
There is also a lot of this: if company car is gone, then you go do your site visit so you can get $.40 for every mile on your own car. You can consistently get several hundred dollars ($400 not kidding) in expense account checks each month.
Theres so many things the principals do like this. Is this typical or is it thier right since it's their company?
Hmmm, why don't we ever make a profit?
I think we need a "suggestions" box. I would suggest not doing either of these things.
There is also the "diguising" of site visits. It just so works out someone has been going to a site (long standing project, multi-phase healthcare campus) not for architectural reasons, but for weekly doctor appointments. I just figured this out when they let something slip.
Can an intern point this kind of stuff out without appearing the tattle-tale? Can I say, hey uh blockheads, maybe this kinda stuff is the problem?
I've thought of asking if those are "benefits".
At my employer there is a whole section in our employee handbook on this type of stuff. Much of it has to do with reimbursement for miles if your go to the site from your home or go home from the site. Basically says they pay only miles 1/2 way if you do this if it at all shortens your trip. I'd say it's loosely enforced but good idea to have a policy in writing.
As for other random things people do to "milk the system" it sure ain't unique to architecture firms. If management are the ones doing this it's tough to do much about it other than move to a more ethical employer. If it's just your co-workers I'd alert management. They are costing the company money, thus you, and I think most managers would be perceptive to any employee looking to "lean" up the bottom line.
Strawbeary: I think your constant close examination of the workings of your office is great. You'll probably be a very good manager and/or principal some day.
I don't think it's in your best interest to "tattle" about any of this. In some cases there may even be information that you don't have that would explain some of the behavior that you're witnessing.
Some thoughts:
It obvously does seem inefficient for someone to be timing their meetings to be driving back to the office just as the day ends. This may indeed be someone who has found a great way to procrastinate (though personally I'd rather be working in the office than driving.) However, I don't think he/she is making a killing on the expensed mileage. Operating a car actually does cost about 38 cents per mile (for gas, routine maintenance, etc.) - so yes, driving uneccessary miles will cost the firm, but it won't really pad the paycheck of the driver much, as he's just putting wear on his own car.
Regarding the doctor's appointments: again, yes this may be a case of someone "cheating" their hours a little. But there are some other things to consider:
Is this person a salaried employee? If so he or she must be paid for the whole day for any day in which he/she works any part of that day. Some firms do have elaborate "makeup time" schemes for doctors appointments and personal errands, but most assume that someone salaried is going to put in the hours to get their work done and take a reasonable amount of personal time as needed for appointments and such. Especially at the level of a manager or principal this is expected, acceptable, and not something that probably needs to be brought to anyone's attention.
Also: are you 100% sure that the management is not aware of this person's situation? I once had a health issue that required periodic appointments over the course of some months. It wasn't something I wanted to discuss widely within the whole firm, but the principal was aware of my schedule needs, and we did write the time in on the firm-wide calendar as job-related, just to maintain some privacy.
It seems to me that if these issues are happening at the level of the owners/principals of this firm that there's little you could do that would have a positive outcome.
If it is happening at the level of managers, production, interns, etc. then it probably has or will come under notice of the principals if it passes their "threshold of tolerance." Let them deal with it.
In my experience firms that have very strict policies about making up every doctor's appointment and/or not leaving early on occasion are also firms that have other unpleasant rules and monitoring (such as logging all your internet time.) I think a more tolerant and flexible workplace is usually desirable. People who are seriously taking advantage of the system will usually be dealt with eventually.
I get NZD$0.61 for every kilometre I travel. Last week I did 150k's so I get back $91.50 tax free - this is a standard rate. I like to travel as much as possible for obvious reasons...
presumably that's for business-related travel! how loose are the rules on what you can deduct? i suppose you could write off a lot as 'site research'...
it depends on if you are being paid by the hour. Or just have something important you want to finish at work. It happens to me alot - I wouldn't say 25 minutes out of my way, but considerable still.
one word for you, zipcar. Well, our company seems to be using this service quite often lately (those of us who don't have a car, or don't want to use theirs) But getting back to the point...If person x's meeting is over @ 4pm and they are going to return to the office for 35 min...just go home!
I have been in this situation many times in the past...for example: I recently had a project, which included weekly visits to the site every Friday Morning...It just so happens that the site is just 10 min. from my old school, and my favorite coffee house. When our meetings ran short, I would swing by and sit there sipping my coffee/reading the paper for a little while, or drop in on some crit...etc. Our contract allowed for 4 hour meetings over 8 weeks...if the meeting is 1hr long...I take an extra hour and then head back to the office.
I am looking forward to doing CA for my proj. in NYC, I figure...fly/take train once a week (I am going to lobby for it being Fridays!). I can possibly make the CA visit into a long weekend (at my expense)
I think that’s totally neurotic, especially for a principal. I mean, it’s his firm isn’t it. Even if he was an employee he could just say “I scheduled the meeting with some extra time in case it ran late, it didn’t but it wasn’t worth driving all the way back so I went home a bit earlyâ€Â. As a principal he shouldn’t have to say shit.
Anyway, it’s only a problem if he won’t stay late when there is a deadline or if he doesn’t give other s the same bit of slack. Next time he does it you should light heartedly tease him for being irrational. “You drive all the way back her to do half an hour of work?â€Â
He’ll either stop do it because he knows people notice or else he’ll just cop to it and hopefully cut you the same break later.
agfa8x - yes, business related. That rate is the standard rate as per the AA's [Automobile Association] recommendation.
I am in the fortunate position of meeting and securing new clients, so I get to travel alot...
You go home at 5:00?
to newstreamlinedmodel; I agree that the principal should be able to go home if his meeting is over early, but then, he employs people like strawbeary who watch everything he does, and questions it. Maybe he feels guilty that the staff is still slaving away at the office. Maybe he feels like he needs to check up on staff and make sure they are not logging their 27th post of the day on archinect.
Concerning all of the principals charging off personal expenses as office expenses: they are tax cheats. If they own the company, they are not 'stealing' from the company, since they get the profits as income, but they are stealing from all taxpayers who have to come up with additional tax money because they did not pay it. It runs rampant in this industry, jsut like ost waitresses don;t report all of their tips. This does not justify it of course- it is still up to the individual to do what they need to do to sleep at night.
On the other hand, I have had employees who leave everyday with two of the office free soda's "for the ride home", take rolls of paper towels, schedule site visits near their house and try to charge off the half hour of travel time they did not make, spend hours per day on the phone, on the internet, etc and try to charge it to jobs, etc. It is not just principals who can have no ethics.
personally i think maestro nailed it...who goes home at 5?
secondly...who knows how long a site visit is going to go?..i never
know how long a meeting will go...you can kind of control that, but
for the most part site meetings are variable. i personally wouldn't
drive back to the office for only a half hour of work...
BUT..archie...there have also been plenty of times that i've stayed
late at a site and not charged the firm...worked late or on weekends
and not charged for every hour...been way underpaid for what i
was doing, but realised that my boss was just trying to stay afloat.
blatant disregard of the rules..ie being on the phone/internet for
hours isn't acceptable...but not working a half hour after a site visit
isn't going to sink the firm...most likely that half hour can get
charged back to the company/client you were on site with. not
completely ethical..but i doubt that it doesn't happen ten fold in
other business venues...
I start at 8.45 and finish at 5.00 - 5 days a week.
Okay, once or twice a week I might stay till 5.45-6.00pm...
today i left at 4
our firm reimburses 41 cents per mile
which is what the company can deduct from taxes
we charge client 55 cents per mile...
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