rest in peace, pope.....you have being doing a lot of good for the world !!
we will be missing you !!

<sobs with italian accent> il papa! </sobs with italian accent>

I regret the loss of any life, but I have to admit I am kind of alarmed by the amount of press this is all getting.

Popes last words, I thinkits Italian..."Goillini"

Must have lost his senses in his final hours.

I'm not alarmed at all with the amount of press this has gotten. He is the pope. That was kind of a weird comment Janosh....

thats italian for rosebud

Right... he's just a pope - no need for so much fuss. My local CBS station has a tribute to the guy running in between in between Geico commercials.

Of course this attention is expected...he was the president/CEO of the worlds largest sector of Christianity. The seat of the pope is one of the most exposed and globally influential non political/governmental positions in the world...and will continue to be so. Although, according to Christianity, he was just another condemned man redeemed by the blood of Christ.

my faith is strengthed yet my heart is saddened at the passing of his Most Holiness, The Holy Father Pope John Paul II. He is with the father at the final resting place, forever looking on to us, praying for our salvation and eternal peace to all. This is a most sacred moment for prayer for the Pontiff, his global congregation and those now delegated with the immense responsibility of divinely selecting our next Pope.

To keep this architectural, I would like to point attention to the church he created in Poland, his first created church as Archbishop and the first built during Communist Poland. I have been searching for details of this magnificent structure but seem to falling short. Who was the architect engaged with designinig such an enormous task? Details are needed, and will give an opportunity to those like me driven my faith to create architecture.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/XPONDILUS/bush-dalailama.jpg" width="400" height="241">

Seems to me that the Vatican is a political/governmental body - the US has an ambassador to it, and recognizes it as a sovereign state. Which is also why Bernard Law can hang out their under papal protection without fear of being returned to the United States to face civil and criminal penalties for that whole pedaphilia deal.

Do any of you all think the next guy is going to do anything about that?

janosh is onto something...
i know this is an unpopular/politically incorrect thing to say - especially at this time - but the church is so hypocritical that it's ridiculous. this is an institution that teaches it's flock that if they masturbate, have pre-marital sex, use birth control, or divorce their spouse they will surely go to hell. then they run the biggest cover-up in history to protect their own - serial molesters - scum that commited one of the most revolting crimes possible. pope john paul 2 was complicit in that cover-up. and bernie law is still being protected by the vatican. i don't understand how the church or the pope can be taken seriously.

norm, "taken seriously" c'mon, let's get the scales out and weigh JP2's rights and wrongs. I agree with being critical, but to say that you don't understand how the Pope can be taken seriously (given his track record) is a bit much.

by his actions he condoned child molestation. granted - you can make an argument that he did some wonderful things. for instance i agree with many that he had more to do with ending the cold war than reagan. but that doesn't give him a pass on his role in the most heinous of crimes. honestly - i don't have a lot of respect for religion in general to begin with - so given the heights of hypocrisy evident here - no i don't think much of the catholic church or the pope. but i do like their pointy hats.

This is a sad day indeed....So when does the Pope John Paul II Memorial competition begin?

i have heard rumors W has been pushing the vatican for some time to consider an american cardinal for pope. first the world bank, now the vatican......and soon un after kofi is trashed.

What's wacky is the "American" candidate that many Europeans are lining up against is this guy:

http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word1026.htm

And although he has US citizenship, he's Ukrainian both practically and by birth.

the Vatican is a soverign state - that and the fact that it gets close to 3 million US tourist a year there is why you have an ambassador

isnt it crown prince JEB? dual role governer/ambassador?

"Although the Americans are the second largest national block after the Italians, it is widely considered a virtual impossibility that an American might be elected. The Catholic Church cannot be led by a superpower pope; it would fatally compromise what is seen as the independence of Vatican diplomacy." from national catholic reporter.....

"Historians call this the “pendulum dynamic,” that papal approaches tend to oscillate from one perspective to the other rather than staying put. The Italians, as they always do, have a better phrase for it. They say, “You always follow a fat pope with a thin one.”

sorry w. but then again, if you get your way, you could recruit cardinals for one of your new crusades events in the middle east....

Of course, JP Deux also was responsible for the appointment of most of the cardinals that are going to be young enough to vote for his successor. This was done to insure continuity of papal policy, the Italian axiom might now be more like "you follow a conservative pope with a conservative pope."

sorry to see john go. i hope now they will do something about protecting their little pedophiles though.

thats funny! good 'ol W never ceases to amaze me, haha.

I noticed that the catholic church catches a lot of heat in the US because of its methodology, perhaps because its so traditional. don't tell this to any modernitsts but in some ways tradition can be a beautiful thing. Since america is so young, people here hold almost no strong traditions and most don't fully comprehend why tradition is important. I guess this might be one reason why so many have this problematic view of Catholicism. anyways, whomever was upset because of the molestation stuff - Ha! church has done much worse in its long past than have a few boys getting all wound up. you have to remember that the church is only as perfect as its people.


anyways, this shouldn't turn into a discussion about church politics because religion is a very personal thing. It's also ignorant to suggest that there is "too much fuss" about the Pope's passing. the world is witnessing the death of an amazing man. even if you're not religious, like myself, respect that a billion or so catholics have lost their leader, whom they all admired greatly.

its easy being critical of the John Paul when you're in front of your computer screen, but you should really think about that a little harder. you see that John Paul 2 wasn't perfect, because he was just a human being like everyone else. what is remarkable is how this imperfect man, perfectly devoted his life to serve other people. I'm not sure anyone here would give up anything & everything and totally commit to such a sacrifice, especially to help the diseased & unfortunate - the ones cast out by society. I know I couldn't do it, it is precisely why John Paul 2, Mother Theresa, Gandhi & others are held in the highest regard by many. People like that are really special.

There was so much more to John Paul 2 than what you'll see on the evening news so I suggest reading a book or two before throwing out criticisms. if he did anything that didn't meet your standards you have to understand that his mission was not to please everybody but to uphold the church's philosophy & teachings. Few can argue that he wasn't a special man and it shouldn't be to anyone's surprise that he's getting so much attention. It is a sad day indeed.

Is it too early to speculate on the white smoke rising from the Sistine Chapel?



Father Dougal McGuire: 1,000-1 outsider

One thing's for sure, the pope new how to handle the narrow roads of Rome in his customised SMART..

i think the next pope should be a pro choice female.

No doubt he was responsible for some good things happening in the church over the last few decades. Some of them were a few centuries overdue, but given the "traditional" nature of the organization, I guess that gets a pass.

Good works recently completed:
Apologized for Inquisition
Apologized for silence during Holocaust
Aided in disintegration of Soviet Europe
Acknowledged legitmacy of Jewish and Muslim faiths, and actually entered a mosque!

And sinces we are talking about a human institution (even if divinely inspired) there are some things that need to be fixed, and we shouldn't let all this back patting and veneration get in the way of the things that the church is going to have to apologize for in the year 2604... There are a few church philosophies and teachings that need to be examined, not just upheld:

Reform homophobic doctrine which opposes same-sex unions, and works to prohibit homosexual couples from adoption.
Reform prohibitions against female priests
Take accountability for sexual abuse, and reform the system which allowed it to happen. This would naturally also mean removing Bernard Law from the committee which disciplines priest.

Sorry if this is offensive to anyone, but I believe these are human rights issues which transcend religious doctrine. After all, JP II didn't let the perpetrators religious justifications get in the way of his (rightly) calling for an end to the practice of female circumcision/genital mutilation in sub-Saharan Africa.

latest odds for Papacy from;
http://www.betfair.com/
(check under special bets general category.good luck and god bless)

i Francis Arinze NIG
6.4$62 6.6$131 7$31 8$10 9.4$3 10$18
i D. Tettamanzi ITA
3.95$9 4$71 4.1$19 4.4$8 4.5$22 4.6$64
i J.M. Lustiger FRA
25$8 27$7 28$104 34$12 36$24 50$28
i O. Rod. Maradiaga HON
8$126 8.4$5 8.6$108 9$23 9.2$11 9.4$128
i Claudio Hummes BRA
9$3 9.2$46 9.4$53 11$15 11.5$9 12.5$70
i G. Battista Re ITA
23$13 27$6 28$19 34$10 38$3 40$19
i J Ratzinger GER
15$7 15.5$15 16$107 17$7 17.5$5 18$3
i JL. Ortega y Alamino CUB
24$12 38$7 42$95 55$3 60$15 65$7
i Ennio Antonelli ITA
55$6 75$40 80$6 130$3 200$3
i Crescenzio Sepe ITA
65$3 75$71 80$5 150$3 200$3
i C. v Schoenborn AUS
42$15 44$46 50$7 100$5 120$32 200$3
i JM. Bergoglio ARG
27$9 30$9 34$39 40$12 44$5 60$3
i Giacomo Biffi ITA
80$34 85$4 90$5 170$3 200$3
i Juan Luis Cipriani ITA
50$8 65$20 70$95 110$7 130$3
i D. Castrillion Hoyos COL
15$9 30$127 32$32 40$12 50$5 75$7
i CM. Martina ITA
60$7 70$8 80$65 120$3 130$3 140$3
i Angelo Sodano ITA
36$18 42$97 44$10 70$3 90$6 100$3
i C. Murphy OConnor ENG
50$4 110$10 120$3 400$3 500$3 1000$12
i Godfried Danneels BEL
30$7 32$4 38$36 50$5 65$3 70$9
i Ivan Dias IND
40$3 48$4 50$8 75$3 110$15 120$3
i George Pell AUST
140$9 200$9 240$20 420$18 1000$3
i Tarcisio Bertone ITA
55$8 60$5 65$5 80$11 85$3 90$3

im betting it will be someone from south america or spainish speaking as half the free world speaks spanish and the us has a strong growth in hispanic catholics. put your money where your mouth is.

wouldnt the cuban guy be great?

although id like to see the african bloak get it.

zepplin...
well said. i suppose a measure of his popularity is that this man has been seen in person by more people than any other individual in the history of the world.
but in response to..."whomever was upset because of the molestation stuff - Ha! church has done much worse in its long past than have a few boys getting all wound up."...you are correct - however jp2 was complicit in this - and i for one don't feel that can be ignored.

What about the pope relentlessly campaigning against the use of condoms in Africa therfore indirectly contributing to millions of people getting AIDS and dying of it. That's just plain criminal. I don't feel at all sad to see him go.

customised SMART

church should not only take full accountability for the sexual abuse but it should develop methods to expose and remove such people. I'm not sure that many Vatican outsiders can speculate on what has been done or not done about this. This issue gives two huge black eyes to catholics, so it has been a hush issue for obvious reasons. As for the other suggestions - I don't really see them accepted, and in someways, they shouldn't be. Same-sex unions are not a church matter and I don't see why they are brought up again and again. Unions are a civil matter and John Paul was a VERY strong advocate against clergy dealing in politics. Church can only marry people and marrying same-sex partners would violate its basic teachings. I just don't think this is a church issue at all. If you're an advocate for human rights you need to talk to good 'ol W about this. Your president wanted to amend the US constitution and make it discriminate against homosexuals, now this is a rights issue.

Women in priesthood is another issue that may not change. Women are not in priesthood because they are women, women are not priests because all the apostles were male. This has been tradition . Hollywood portrays mothers as females and fathers as males, should that be changed too? Traditionally those are roles assigned to their respective sexes just as the role of a priest is traditionally assigned to males.

as for the condoms issue, yeah, I don't agree with his philosophy either but if you know church rhetoric, his stance should be no surprise. I'm not sure you can make a clear argument blaming the Pope. People get AIDS in Africa because of over-population and the lack of education. The Pope was against using violence but people still kill. Just because he was against condoms, doesn't mean that people shouldn't use them. In some parts of Africa men actually believe that if you have sex with a virgin you'll rid yourself of the disease. this is a education issue. anyways, did the Pope uphold the teachings of the church concerning this issue? yes! was it right? thats more of a gray area.

I guess I'm biased when it comes to the Pope since I'm european and from poland. I've seen him do amazing things as a social servant which far outweigh any condom issue in africa. he was such a great person, and if you don't agree then show respect and kindness to ones that do.

PEOPLE - despite the catholic church's inconsistance. It should be noted, that along with Regan and Thatcher, Mr. John Paul. are all considered to be responsible for bringing down the Iron Curtain. And that in itself is something.

" This is not to say that John Paul II stayed out of politics entirely. He came to office at the height of the Cold War, and put considerable effort into supporting democratic movements in his native Poland and elsewhere. Pundits have credited him, former U.S. President Ronald Regan and British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher for bringing down the Iron Curtain. The Pope showed us the power religion can have on the global stage, especially when helping to topple autocratic regimes."

I don't think that by pointing out ommissions and mistakes anyone is being disrespectful

Archi-F's point is an excellent example of the Church marshalling its political force to effect change. In the 1960s, the American Church was a tremendous force fighting against poverty and racism... politically. More recently the Vatican instructed American diocese to withhold the eucharist from pro-life/pro-abortion POLITICIANS (not members of the liety) and has said that gay civil unions are ethically unacceptable and should not be granted equivalent status in civil government. So it is clear that while the Church has a tradition of acting politically, it is also clear that it has done so for the betterment of humanity, and sometimes in a matter that impedes human rights, and encourages fear and hate. Saying that such commentary should be confined to W is as ridiculous.

Regarding tradition: A tradition of performing good works is one of the greatest things that the Church has. But tradition is not an alibi or an excuse for failing to do good. Tradition held until 1960 that blacks could not become cardinals. When it became obvious that tradition was cloaked in racism, the Church ignored tradition. Tradition held that the liturgy could only be performed in Latin. Vatican II dismissed tradition and allowed the liturgy to be performed in the vernacular. Certainly the Church is also capable of creating a tradition which includes gay rights and woman priests.

[i'm bypassing the discussion although i sort of agree on a middle ground, as a catholic that disagrees with several church positions on women priests, gay marriage and use of condoms]

ok. i'm not sidestepping. janosh, i think your position is fair and not disrespectful. it is sad when doberman says he's not sad to see him go. that is fine, and true for him, just sounds harsh for someone who dedicated his life to helping and serving. he was true to his positions and upheld them very bravely. i'm not sad to see someone go = i'm happy he died, which is sort of harsh. but each one is entitled to their point of view.

...TED, i read somewhere that the argentinian has ties to the church of the liberation movement... that would be great. unfortunately, it seems pretty unlikely since there is a conservative mayority.

i'm also partial to the honduras and cuban guys...

of course i'm latin american... duh.

and in case it wasn't clear, for the record, although i did disagree with some of his stances, i did admire him greatly for very brave stances against communism, capitalism, and war, + great intellect and dedication to serving all.