oh yea, this was posted on the los angeles craigslist.
if this upset you as much as it does me, let them know....

reply to: job-64425872@craigslist.org

isn't this illegal? Someone contact the local AIA chapter or NCARB...i think there is a rule in the AIA about firms having to compensate everyone who does work for the office.

-TO

I just found this somewhere:

In order for a business to legally have unpaid interns, you have to apply for an unpaid-employment certificate from the government. If you don't (and no U.S. Architectural firm has successfully applied because they don't qualify!) it is just volunteer work.

if you happen to go to the website of foreign office architects

www.f-o-a.net, and go to the contact 'work' section, they say 'applicants are encouraged to look for scholarships etc etc'

f-ing a-holes

at places like FOA they make you work like dog as well... what the f???

let's create a name and shame list here...

it is illegal to have employees working for free. which is another reason the ncarb needs to change the term intern to something/anything else to clear up potential confusion.

Another part of the solution is eduating students and others that they don't have to work for free in order to get a position in an office. Most future employers won't give a damn if an applicant's resume' has an internship in a Starchitect's firm listed.

So, youngsters: don't fall for this BS. You deserve to get paid, and will find a firm who will pay you. Just keep looking; be diligent. No one who knows ANYTHING will care if you have a 3-month stint with Morphosis, or Libeskind, et al. Get some experience, and get paid for it.

well said. they may be 'starchitects' to you while you are in school... but out in the professional scene, they are rather disappointing.

LIbeskind is the Woody Allen of architecture. he's just something to laugh at and help you realize that you dont have it so bad.
(he kind of sounds like Allen too.)

just say no. have some self-respect otherwise no one will respect you.

i am thinking of starting my own Architect Hit Squad. we underpaid, exploited talent will go aroung hunting starchitects and rid the world of 'em....just think of it, one day Thom is lecturing at Columbia, the next day he is found tragically in an abandoned apartment in Tribeca, dead, with his pants around his ankles, face down in his own puke and a needle stcking out his arm. just to tragic to think about....

well he hands you a nickel
he hands you a dime.
he asks you with a grin if you're havin a good time
and then he finds you everytime you slam the door
i aint gonna work for maggies' brother no more.
bobby d-maggie's farm

Wow! Libeskind as Woody Allen and the Mayne man as a hit target (though we can assume he went out still talking). With this, my graduate school nightmares have been erased in one thread. Thanks, you guys!

If nothing else it's very bad PR for the firm. If anyone gets a reply back from that address, they should post the firm name here. Then, we'll all know what to do...

That job posting is totally un-ethical.

UK: Minimum Reccomended Wages for Part 1 (interns) as indicated by RIBA

There are still some (probably) alot of companies out there who either dont know about this or choose to ignore it.

I know that in Finland the National Architectures Students Union has had legal minimum wage requirements for quite a while, and I think Students might have to sign up/sign to say that they will not work for less.

But anyway

This is the situation in the u.k

And it highlights the difference between "Employment and Volunteering"

Statutory responsibilities
An employer has a statutory responsibility to provide all employees with conditions of employment that conform to
National minimum wage legislation and the EU working directive. If an architect employer, (registered with the
RIBA/ARB) breeches their statutory responsibilities they may be subject to disciplinary action by the RIBA/ARB as
a breach of the RIBA Code of Conduct/ ARB Code of Professional Conduct (and hence the Architects’
Registration Act).
The employer’s statutory responsibilities include the provision of a contract of employment. The national minimum
wage, (as of 1st October 2003) is £4.50 per hour. The EU working directive limits an employee’s working hours to
and average of 48 hours per week. In order to exceed this, the employee must be asked to sign a voluntary
waiver.
RIBA/archaos Indicative Rate of Pay for post Part 1 employees
• The RIBA/archaos recommends a minimum rate of pay of £6.801 per hour as of October 2003.
• This rate should be adjusted accordingly to accommodate higher living costs in some UK locations. The
indicative rate of pay for those post part 1 employees working in London is £8.17 per hour (+20%).
To give some indication of salary levels, assuming a standard employment document of 48 weeks/year and
37.5hours/week, the hourly figures would translate to £ 12,240.00 p.a nationwide, £ 14,706.00 p.a in London.
MANY EMPLOYERS WILL HAVE DIFFERENT CONTRACT TERMS. THESE VALUES ARE INDICATIVE ONLY
AND DO NOT FORM PART OF THE RIBA/archaos RECCOMMENDATIONS.

OH

and definitely send some very large PDF samples (of white noise) to the job email address:

New ad:

Small, young, high-quality design firm seeks I.T support to remove excessively large and numerious spam emails from server

mailto:job-64425872@craigslist.org

This is an HIGHLY PAID position, we need help FAST!

what about again working at a foreign firm where you were previously employed?

i worked in a german office for 600 euros a month, the german interns only got 300 (plus a stipend from the e.u., if i recall)

they want to rehire me, and so my question is how much more should i ask for/get? it works out to crappy pay, but it's so much better for a number of reasons than any firm i could work for in the states. and they do incredible work, i get to live in the fattest city, the locals are crazy, and i get to walk by h+dm's office a few times per month and drool. oh, this would be my first "post collegiate" job. for me, right now the experience i would get outweighs getting paid better at a firm in the US i might not enjoy, but i know i would love working in germany again. thoughts?

Munich?

Try between 2400-2700 euro's a month (this a wild guess based on dutch salary standards plus a little since munich is fairly expensive)

Ow yeah: I also think that anyone who tries to reintroduce slavery must be shot!

i think it's interesting to think about the underlying issues which allow this to continue in our profession. just blaming the employer doesn't address the fact that they and others will continue to do this because they can. this is capitalism; they have no obligation to the worker.

are we graduating too many architects from our schools? is our education not producing workers with valuable skills? in my opinion, we already have too many people in the profession- too many small firms with a dearth of work, even during a construction boom. there is an architect glut.

oh i don't just blame the employer. like most problematic relationships, there is blame to go all around. if students didn't take these positions with little to no pay, employers would have no option but to up the ante.

i think ferplexion has a point. i saw some useless people continue to pass papers they should have failed at school. How can we expect good salares when there are so many of these people who will CAD for peanuts.

The other problem (in the cities I've worked) is that we keep letting other people usurp our traditional responsibilities. Has anybody ever had a 'project manager' that did anything useful excpet take notes at meetings? How do these people get paid many times what I do for doing something a child can do?

all of the project managers i've worked worked with do much more than take notes. maybe i've been lucky, but to make a comment like this is to belittle and not understand their role. the pm's in my offices put in just as many hours as anyone else in the office and certainly have much more responsibility than most in the office.

Ferplexion's point about oversupply is also pertinent. Look at all the threads here packed with folks waiting to join the field, or get further into it. This, combined with Antipod's 2nd point, means that more and more are entering a field with less and less to do. Unfortunately, there's not much to be done about this, save for a personal decision by a few to change career plans once they find out the dismal prospects.

Architecture schools can choose to cut admissions (not likely) and state boards may decide to further limit licenses by raising exam standards (more likely). Other professions are probably hurting in this regard, too.

Antipod.
Dont under estimate the role of the Project Manager. A good one will make a project and a bad one will break it. In terms of profit and repeat work. A good Project Manager is on the front line with Owners Contractors and Bankers. Owners will remember a good PM as well as the bad ones.

A smart General Contractor will smell out a medicore PM and will have thier way with them. A good PM will not let that happen.

I agree with e. Most project managers I have worked with put in loads of hours.

I still think we should make a MASSIVE petition, and send it to every practice out there, let it build up steam for a few months...

and then POW!

I think that Antipod meant the "Project Manager"s who DON'T work in architect's offices, but that owners hire to interface with the architect and contractor. Obviously project managers in an architect's office make a lot of sense, and do a lot of work, but there are absolutely no qualifications to be a project manager for the owner. If this is what Antipod meant, I can only agree that the project managing profession is pretty superflous.

rationalist,
If that is the case, then I think Antipod has just identified another splinter group that architects could market to. We can do it better.

to address a couple of points above: i don't think we have an oversupply of architects coming out; rather, we are allowing the definition of what an architect is to be defined by others and are consequently marginalizing our possible roles within the construction industry. the construction manager role (pointed out by rationalist) is something we used to do. so is programming (another specialist i've seen lately). we've gladly allowed our role to be confined to window dressing and haven't uttered a peep as our involvement in project has become more and more restricted. instead, we'll navel gaze for months at a time about how to resolve a window detail and pat ourselves on the back when it gets published. never mind that our fees are constantly being pressured, nibbled into, etc. we settle for lower fees, which means we have less time to do more and can't convince anyone that we are absolutely essential to the process of construction.

(and now the slight tangent)

is this any better at the universities? of course not. if you can't make it through studio for 4-5 years, you're career in architecture is almost assuredly snuffed out. maybe you are (or would be) a great manager of people or projects, but if you can't survive some egomanical young turk trying to probe the inner reccesses of whatever, you're screwed. (and i'm one of those young turks, so, yeah, i can say that). why don't we create alternative tracks for people to get a degree in architecture that doesn't focus on design? it's ridiculous, really.

expand the notion of what the profession is, expand the potential market for our services, acknowledge that 'design' as we understand it is just another specialization within a business structure, and do what it takes to reclaim some real power within the construction industry. i believe, with everything i have, that 'design' is the most valuable trait we can bring to the world. but we suck at understanding how the rest of the world sees 'design', much less how to inspire confidence in how to deliver it. we don't get to 'design' because we can't justify why it matters nor give any certitude about what it will cost. we don't have that power. (well, maybe some do).

most practices aren't the problem. the profession is the problem. so figure out how to change a small corner of it for yourself and all will be fine...

I am sure you have received several of these, but the prevailing trend in the design world is... That young designers should be rewarded for the time they give a firm (beyond the ephemera of "experience" and other such obscure references that preclude payment for work rendered). Likewise said designer is more likely to produce good work, if they are are being compensated for their labor. Whether you are a new firm or not, paying your employees is part of the sacrifice you must make to get going. Although this is unethical universaly, I would have to say that the reward is greater, working for free with a named architect, than for an obscure upstart. maybe if someone had paid you when you were interning you wouldnt be in the position where you cant afford to pay your help now! You should send this question to your friends - Why are architecture students, who are some of the hardest working of any discipline, the only people who an employer can expect to work for free? Good luck.

I tried to send this to that job posting address....
It had been removed, the letter came back to me

John Lenin once said "Women are the *iggers of the world, he was wrong, architecture students are the *iggers of the world"!

My experience has been that if people dont have to pay you for your work, they dont value what you do for them

Was that John Lennon or Vladimir Lenin?

The Dude: It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Donny: I am the walrus.
The Dude: You know what I'm trying to say...
Walter Sobchak: That $#^@ing bitch...
Donny: I am the walrus.
Walter Sobchak: shut the $#^@ up, Donny! V.I. Lenin. Vladimir Illanich Uleninov!

sorry losdogedog, i was only speaking from my experience. I would love to have in-house PMs so they can chase the engineers for the details that are three weeks late so i can get on with something more profitable. I do appreciate that somewhere out there are some great PMs who work hard and enrich a project. Sadly I have not met one yet. I think rationalist understood what i meant. And, g-love picked up on what i would have said if i could be bothered. We used to rule this industry and we are constantly being marginalised out of nearly every aspect by people who get paid better and often have no formal education (not that this is necessarlity a pre-requisite for cometency).

This is well trodden ground so i'm gonna leave this one there. It's lunch time.