straw, its not very surprising to me.

There are many firms here in LA who will pay $ 12.5 to arch. interns = aprox 24,000 per year. A friend of mine worked in such a place and mind you, it was not a starchitect - a pretty mediocre place with very average work

how much are you worth really? do you know how to do anything that an architect can bill for? they are taking a hit by hiring you and training you to be a professional. the money sucks get over it.

But shouldn't they make more than a barista at starbucks? In Thailand?

here in boston, I used to work for a firm that was paying interns $10 an hour. this was 2 years ago, and not a very good office. Around here since there is a shortage of jobs and a lot of unemployed interns running around, many people take low-paying jobs just so they can get experience... a lot of places take advantage of interns because they don't know any better.

[rant]What have degree-holding interns been doing with themselves for the past 4-6 years? twiddling their thumbs? they have a ton to offer a firm (they know 3-d software, are good graphic designers, great critical thinkers, etc...), while still learning the ins and outs of professional practice... what needs to end in this profession is the "dues paying" mentality, and we need to teach architects how to be better managers. Interns can be used for much more than just CAD monkeys... thus totally justifying paying them more than 12/hr.... this is why no one wants to stay in this horrible horrible profession. - because no one knows how to use interns to their full potential.
[\rant]

-TO

I would be happy with 22,000 - but then I'm British and I get paid in pounds ;)

Here, right now, in Glasgow, companies are desperate for people like us - I know one firm offering each of their employees £500 ($1000 since I'm so kind) if they can find an employable student.

I expect to earn no less than £10/$20 an hour in my next job, and I've no even graduated yet. Don't mean to brag, because I feel for you guys, and since construction here is boom and bust - it won't be long before the wages drop, I think.

We should start a petition, and get people to refuse to work for nothing, starve the starchitects of their slaves. I'm serious, anyone up for that?

its true that people coming out of school are learning great 3d modelling skills. but guess what? you cant bill a client for a rendering uless they want it. all the great models both 3-d and handbuilt are badically done on the firms dime to promote themselves. if one entered the workforce with a working knowledge of the ibc, a couple sets of cd's(which could easily be done in a studio set up) in addition to that lecan inspired thesis, pay across the board would go up. probably to 25 k!!!

You sound so poor :) well, there's a place in this little world, where BArch is paid about 4000$ a year :) ofcourse without work experience :)

well thats probably not the place to be then.

in what state is this for? I think a lot depends on cost of living. 24k in LA, NY or SF would be unbearable, but in western Carolina or N Dakota it may be reasonable and livable. context is everything.

vado, what's your problem man? no matter what an intern does, he deserves to be paid commensurately with his education/experience. whether it's redlines or sketches or renderings, of course you can bill the intern's hours, and it's usually done at a MUCH higher rate than the intern will ever learn about, and the difference goes into the partners' pockets.

and REGARDLESS, your use of the phrase 'on their own dime to promote themselves' is frightening; you seem to think that for some reason it's okay to pay talented interns peanuts to promote your firm when you'd have to pay an advertising agency 10x the rate to basically do the same thing? whether for a competition or a client, it's work done for the firm, to help the firm grow, and compensation is in order.

also, one does not enter the workforce with knowledge of the ibc or a couple sets of cd's, that's what they learn at work! that's what INTERNS are INTERNING for!

i kinda get the feeling that you're just pulling our chains, though... an architect wouldn't say such things... unless he's had his soul crushed.

joed, while i agree with you about paying an intern a fair wage and that they help a firm grow, not as many of their hours are billable. they often spend more time contributing to non-billable work than the rest of the architectural staff. they also take longer to do work just as anyone does who enters a new position. this is no different for the student becoming an intern or the project architect becoming a project manager. there is always a learning curve and your boss pays for that to happen. all employees are billed at a much higher rate than what they are paid. this covers many costs beyond the employees pay and profit to the partner and includes the ability for her/his staff to learn.

e, i understand and agree. 12$/hr., however, is unacceptable. i would not expect anybody with a professional degree to earn that little. i make $12/hr. working at the print shop at columbia.

all good points!

"20 years of schooling and they put you on the day shift." bob d. subterranean homesick blues.

actually joe, i dont think its okay, but there is no reason that coming out of sometimes six years of architecture school that people shouldnt have these skills. and believe me unless a client wants a rendering they aint payin for it. this is why in architecture awards you see ten people working on some two thousand square foot house. you think the client paid for twenty models and computer renderings? hell no. i agree compensation is in order. but until it starts at a university level, or until you can just apprentice your twelve year old to an architecture firm ala the guild system of years gone by. your pay will suck. your 12 bucks an hour is probably billed at least 80, but that includes rent, healthcare, insurance etc. so its not all going into the principal's pocket.

anyway it would be great if everyone made 50k coming out of school, i am just looking for some ways to get us there.

my first full time job in architecture [not as an intern] was 24k/yr in san francisco. mind you, this was 10 years ago. i felt i was fairly paid given my level of experience and that i was able to survive in one of the most expensive cities in the u.s.

i think vado is taling about a change in the way architecture is taught in our fuck all schools. Basic experience of CD s etc should be part of the curriculum, then things would improve.

Seriously, if you want a pay raise, get licensed. End of story. Take control of your life. Become marketable. LEED Certified wouldnt hurt either.

LEED certification is overrated. Clients are interested in green/sustainable issues on their projects (especially residential clients) but they often aren't even aware of the existence of LEED. 2 out of 3 interns seem to have LEED on their resumes, but when asked questions in an interview they often haven't worked on anything in which they've used this knowledge.

3D skills are another overrated thing sometimes. 10 years ago this was a big deal that firms would pay a premium for, because firms were just getting interested in what they could do with 3D and the higher-ups in the firms never had any experience in this because they graduated too early. But students have been coming out of most architecture schools with 3D skills for a good decade now and so there are often plenty of skilled 3D people already in place in many firms.

These skills are good to have. But they don't automatically lead to higher starting salaries.

The big picture here is that it's interns that are responsible for the low wages. If they accept low pay, of course that's what they will get. Personally, I think that $30K per year starting/just out of school is underpaid. Demand what you deserve.

I was meeting with the president of the chamber of commerce the other night to talk about why young educated people don't stick around here. We were also talking about jobs in general. She told me that she had a lead on 300-400 new jobs coming to town that paid a "living wage" that she was really excited about. These are unskilled jobs but they would pay $15 an hour and full benefits boyond the usual like optical, child care etc. It is a Qwest call center... So if your smart enough to answer a phone and type in data you can get $15 an hour. According to the chamber of commerce president of this city, intern architects/college graduates getting hired at 23-24k a year do not qualify as recieving a living wage.
No wonder college educated people leave the state in droves. Do other MoMMas states have this problem? I know they do. Why can't small business employers pay living wages like Qwest?

Would an engineer start at less than 30k?

they can't pay what qwest pays because they don't have bankroll like qwest. they also don't have the ability to screw over millions of customers like qwest. i don't know about idaho, but in washington qwest is satan. also, those employees working at qwest will still be making 15/hr in 15 years. they have no chance for upward mobility. i'm not excusing architects not being able to value their employees only stating factual differences.

Strawbeary, I think you are right about the engineers, but see at how much they end, not at how much they begin:).
I do not know how are the things in the US. But my oersonal position is that a young architect should be paid enough to cover expenses and be calm.
One should not be used only fo CAD. I get upset about computer work if it is the whole story.

I have to agree with those that have suggested that our education doesn't prepare us for the real world! Recently I sat on a "jury" of second year projects and had quite a flashback!!! I was quite put off by the esoteric discussion---the starting point for the project fell on an artist and painting??? I've been out of school for 10 years and can't think of one client that would pay me for that---I graduated without knowing the true size of a 2 x 4, doesn't that seem a bit wrong?

I think students can accept more of a challenge than they are given, that real world problems are what they need to be exposed to, second year design build or fifth year cooperation with local firms.....something else I found of note, all of the students responded with objects---few and far between in my experience. I took low pay because I had alot to learn. Shame on me, or shame on the nature of architectural education?

One more thing---does anyone out there know why critiques are traditionally fearful instead of an encouragement? My colleagues seemed to find pleasure in blowing all kinds of smoke about why the student made a wrong move, or why their concept didn't hold water. ??? Why is there enjoyment in a "beating"? Criticism with some encouragement can't hurt, right?

well i think bob dylan summed up the crit process pretty well in his classic tune rainy day women#12 & 35 there jonsie-

well they'll stone you and they'll say that its the end.
they'll stone you and then they'll come back again
they'll stone you when youre ridin in your car
they'll stone you when youre playin your guitar
but i would not feel so all alone
everybody must get stoned.

crits aren t real life...

"Seriously, if you want a pay raise, get licensed. End of story. Take control of your life. "

It seems most people here don't have them, how difficult is it to get one?

(i had a similar response in "No I don't work for free")

to me, the fact that architects are underpaid means that there are just too many people in the profession. the supply of recent graduates is always greater than the demand. over time, some people leave the profession out of frustration while others stick it out to gain enough skill to make a decent living.

also, the more i think about it, the argument that recent grads are paid little because they lack skill is less compelling. nearly everyone graduating knows enough to be worth $20/hr. they may not be able to produce quality CDs for every aspect of a project on their own, but they just need some guidance. they know schematic design well, and their technology skill set is quite honed- CAD & 3D are de rigeur at most schools.

I am a recent grad myself, and I have worked at three different firms while and school and since graduating. My experience is that many of the tasks I have been given are below my skill level- not nearly challenging enough. Graduates fill positions that could be occupied by younger students or drafstmen without a professional degree. In my opinion, the lack of challenge and interest, as much as the pathetic compensation that accompanies it, are what turn people away.

This country simply needs to graduate fewer architects.

Yes---thank goodness vado crits aren't real life! Makes me want to poke my eyes out just thinking about it.....do the nature of crits prepare us for the worst in the job arena?, i.e...."treat me like poo, I'm used to it.......mmmmm I like poo!"

seriously, ferplex I'm glad your education prepared you well but I just do not believe there are too many architects out there. Maybe I've been lucky getting work, I dunno it just seems like there is plenty to go around in this profession.


I will still pay more for someone that has some real world experience opposed to someone that can pull a concept out of thin air. All of the esoteric yada yada students pay for doesn't (in my experience) make much of a return on their investment when looking for work.

one more thing, and I'm off the soapbox....my father-in-law had an in depth discussion with an old professor of mine who happened to be involved in the A.R.E. test content. It made him smile when he noted statistics on pass rates (and it wasn't because the pass rate was high). As another professional, this guy's demeanor perplexed my F.I.L---he's a retired physician and couldn't understand why it would give him joy that the A.R.E. pass stats were low. I couldn't really explain it to him either??? He said his tests were for minimum competence to be a physician, and he couldn't get it why a professor would be happy that A.R.E. candidates couldn't pass minimum competence.