ive heard that there is no CAD for mac OS.
my schools lab does not have any mac workstations.
we have many imacs at other labs, theyre just ridiculously slow.
how are powerbooks? Ive heard that theyre good for graphics..
i think mac is the "l33t" choice.... running the risk of inducing a mac-windoze flamewar: u get more punch for your bucks with a windoze; mac is pure style, granted, but u probably cant beat the pure force offered by a (in comparison) not-so-expensive, say, dual-opteron PC.
but then, hey! guess it boils down to personal preference; usability esp. w/ OSX is sheer beauty, and by now u get most apps for MAC, anyways. i'd always opt for PC- and dont be fooled by school-labs.. a lot of the times they're on a tight budget, who'd blame them for buying more PCs so more people can use the lab instead of fewer G5s having to be used by 5 ppl at once *lol*
not wanting to get into noci's flamewar- i cant help myself- its rubbish.
Macs make far better use of the processing power by running a better designed(not just graphically) operating sytem that is extremely stable.
What this means is that you need less mac processing power comparative to a pc for the same result. That is the reason why macs look like they have lower processors- because they dont need as much as a pc would need. That being said- dual processor g5's with endless capabilites for expansion are pretty much the fastest thing anyone would need, which is why they are increasingly being used as part of supercomputers.
With regards to cad and mac- the main choice is vectorworks, with form•z the real choice for 3d, which is also available on pc too.
There is a choice for a lot of other software, and i would make the argument that you can be a lot more productive on a mac than a pc, simply from the versatility that the interface offers.
Initially it can be more expensive as a set up, but with the arrival of mini macs- that could all change, and even ibooks have g4 chips now.
i'm with dang, have both, specially if you intend to do other stuff like music or video editing, the hardware compatibility in macs for these fields is much beter (they are industry standard). but you have to know stuff like autocad and 3dsmax, so you'll need a pc as well. you can gat away with vectorworks, sketchup , cinema 4d etc, but you have to know the industry standards in archiecture...
off-topic..heard some rumors by x cringeley once that allegedly apple is planning to do video-on-demand via itunes.. and that the mini is the integral hi-fi-size device to do the displaying.. nice idea though, and also explains the price..
PC at work, PC at home, and a mac laptop. I bought the laptop becasue I wanted it for its video abilities. In terms of raw performance, my Dell 2.4HT KILLS the mac. I like the design of the laptop itself, and using it is a pleasure. I'm not quite as efficient on the mac as I am on the PC, but that may be the learning curve.
Macs are similar to a super efficent honda civic with a 250 HP vtec dropped inside. PCs are similar to a truck that weighs 5000lbs with a 320 hp motor. If you look at horse power alone, the truck looks faster, however becuase the civic is lighter and has more HP going to the wheel, the Civic becomes the faster car.
When it comes down to making a choice on what computer to buy I think you need to go with whatever you are comfortable with, especially when you are doing work for yourself. I have found that in the industry the business is dominated by the .dwg file type. It is what we use to exchange files between different consultants and engineers. As long as that is the case I imagine that PC's and AutoCAD will rule. I've been hearing rumours about a AutoCAD version for OSX for a couple of years now, but I know AutoDesk dumped the Mac version of AutoCAD back with AutoCAD 12 because the market was not large enough to support it. I doubt enough has changed since then to see a new version of AutoCAD for the Mac. In any case I can use Vectorworks and PowerCADD at home on my Mac and easily convert these files to .dwg if needed and use on my PC at work
according to your analogy:
pcs must also be much more stable and/or built for heavy duty tasks?
sirgemhl
If you want to look cool when working in da starbuck, get a mac powerbook, an ipod, and prada sneakers.
If your work needs to comply efficiently and seamlessly with other AEC industry-strandard fields, engineers, contractors,,, get PCs.
Kensington Expert Mouse trackball on both systems remains one of my favorite aspects of either. I prefer the VW to the ACad, but it will run on either platform.
xp is good, and has better cad software, but for anything else i prefer my powerbook for about a million little reasons:
-silent computer
-sleeps and wakes instantly
-expose
-being able to tell one jpg to open in photoshop and another in preview, and have the system remember the difference for each file
-two-finger scrolling on the mousepad
-dmg files
-pdf printing built into system
-applications that don't dump files all over your hard drive
-digital cameras that work without installing extra drivers
but its a preference thing, not a religion.
btw, and/or: you must be american. i think its hilarious that americans think starbucks is a fancy poser joint. here (nz) starbucks is only marginally better than buying coffee at mcdonalds.
anyone who thinks that a dual pc (say an dual opteron like mine) with souped up graphics card, 2 gb ram etc is inferior to a G4 FOR THE SAME MONEY knows nothing about computers, or is too blinded by brand
we built my opteron workstation for aprox. $ 2100 with the following specs:
kick ass msi mobo - with two 2.0 ghz 64-bit opteron processors (highly comparable to the g5 processors)
nvidia quadro fx500 video card
80 + 160 gb hard drives
win xp pro etc etc
yes cd and dvd burner
creative zl2 sound card (which alone is a 150$?)
2 gb of ram
the g5 definately looks better and osX is definately great...but i can pay a 1000$ less and still get better performance with my PC. Yes i have opened and have worked with very large photoshop files on both my pc and the g5, and still my pc runs faster.
Mission St.:
Rhino on VPC is kinda crappy if you ask me - I had both programs kickin' around so I gave it a go. I have a dual 1.8 G5 w/ 2.5gig of memory and I wasn't impressed. It works, but its just not very snappy. Its too bad they're not planning on porting Rhino to OSX, it would be a nice package to have for the platform.
i got both...a sony vaio laptop and a 15" g4 powerbook...
i use the apple all the time now..but use the pc for autocad
and all my financial stuff...the g4 is really nice lookin...and
does run quieter..and has longer battery life...and doesn't
have a cracked screen like my sony does...plus it's far thinner...
i like em both...and like that i have a basic ability to fix em both.
would be a great resource to look at. Several great CAD programs run on OS X. If you're forced into AutoCAD world, VPC will let you run that on your mac too, no problem. Its RAM hungry so make sure you have a lot of it. Anything that's graphic intensive will not work well under VPC, like Rhino or 3-D games. PC is a better choice if you're set on Rhino. Mac has other applications for rendering, look at Architosh.
It takes a special person to buy, use and appreciate an Apple computer. Its not just for design people, affluent & intelligent people are core Apple costumers. I've been in technology for about 15 years and without a doubt, Apple computers are superior to anything else out there. Period. Are Apple computers perfect? No, and most importantly, an Apple computer is not a right choice for everyone, no matter how superior it is. It is important to evaluate your particular needs because Windows may be more logical, both to use and to implement.
I find the $$$ arguments very irrational & stupid (I hope no offense is taken) for three reasons. First, you're comparing a regular product to a designer product! Stop it! Would it be fair to compare prices of a cookie cutter suburban house to (name your favorite architect here)'s house??? As architects, as designers, we should appreciate that everyone doesn't choose to live in identical houses. We should appreciate the thought/work that makes an ordinary object a special one, just because something appears to be cheaper doesn't necessarily make it better. It just makes it cheaper. If you don't agree with me you'll be happier with Windows.
Second, you can get a new Mustang GT for $25,000, or a BWM M3 for $55,000. Modify the Ford to make it faster & etc and you still have a Ford, the same car that up to this last revision had FAKE air intakes on its doors. No one will mistake your Ford for M3 no matter how many mods you do (not just looks, M3's aluminum will be real aluminum and chrome will be stainless.) or - a nice Laz-y Boy can be had sub-$1000, with cup holders and even a place to put your remote. Comparing that to a Barcelona chair is comparing PC vs Mac. Some find Laz-y Boy's great but some people want more.
Third, I really hate when people compare PC spec's in to Macs. Although both Mac and PC's use identical RAM sticks, their operating systems use that memory in much different ways. 256MB on a PC is not the same as 256MB on a Mac. OS X has a very sophisticated way to deal with RAM, it does more with less. Same applies to CPU speed. The amount of work flow I can handle simultaneously on my Apple beats any "faster" PC's any day. Apple is just more intuitive to use. I recently installed a Hard Drive. A 12 page setup booklet was ALL for Windows and it specifically said that OS X had no set up instructions. It kinda made me laugh. Its all plug in and use.
Another thing people fail to consider is the buisness model of the two. Microsoft is all about money. There is a multibillion war going on in the computer world at the moment. Microsoft vs. Open Source. MS wants to keep all the standards closed & make money off EVERYTHING through direct selling or licensing. The other side is open source (unix/linux/apple), all based on free standards. Apple is UNIX, you and your mom can download what makes every Apple work for free and do with it whatever your heart desires. You say Apple is money hungry too, look at the prices. You get what you pay for. Real stainless, real aluminum, not a made in china plastic knock off, and thats what you pay for. Windows costumer service is somewhere in India. Apple costumer service is in the US. We know good design is not free. I think $$$ arguments are stupid. If you think Apple is bad, look at what Microsoft does. Biggest complaint against Windows is Viruses/Spyware. People bitch, Microsoft buys an anti-virus company from NY. Are they going to make Windows better? Will you get free antivirus? No, Microsoft decided to sell anti-virus because they build a crap OS. Would you keep paying Ford to replace your doors because they didn't design the car properly and they keep falling off? Windows get viruses because Windows has build quality of a Yugo. The argument that less people use Mac so its less prone to viruses is nonsense. Everyone knows how a lock works yet it seems to do a pretty good job of keeping people out. When I read press releases by Microsoft, I'm amazed that people actually buy into what the say. Thats ignorance for you. I hate how money driven Microsoft is and its one of the reasons I don't want anything to do with them ever again.
Apple invented the PC and it keeps innovating the PC. Windows has been following Mac since the beginning. Its not a matter of which is better, we have different needs, it a matter which is better for you. Everyone doesn't need to have the innovator because being the innovator is a con in itself for obvious reasons.
PC. Having used both, I prefer PC over Apple immensely. My advice, flush all apples down the toilet. Can't stand how people just assume I'm a Mac user when they find out I'm a designer. Yeah right, and I drive a VW bug, wear boxy black glasses, etc. etc..
Apple's rotten to the core.
gray, for as many ppl that have you opinion others will have the opposite. i also have used both, but i would not flush either down the toilet. i love my mac. not sure how they are rotten to the core.
i believe what gray wants to say is that apple is a *company* just as MS is one.
mind the latest lawsuits filed against whistleblower-blogsites; consider iTunes DRM and the war against Real; consider the feature-wise de-specked iPods in order to comply with the needs of the copyright cartels (limited recording capabilities, anyone!)- and so forth.
yup, ideology aside- they deliver nicely designed products for the people who want them- but at the core, they're out there to lock you down and get your money, all nicely packed up in that stupid "better design for better people" mentality.
it's the asumption of a differing corporate ideology which is rotten to the core- apple ain't different in that department. but then, perhaps the obvious charme their products emanate kind of makes up for it in the public opinion.
Apple serves a niche, mainly people in the graphics industry who need the ability to prrint postscript typefaces and also a lot of power to process big graphic files. Apple does this hands down better than Microsoft. PCs use truetype fonts (any professional printhouse worth thier salt will not accept this format). Apples also utilize their unix underpinnings to be highly adaptable and customizeble to a varied number of working conditions.
PCs have their merits, mainly that they are uniform and inexpensive.
These are 2 differents tools for 2 different kinds of work. To trash one is to be taken in by mindless marketing.
noci and gray: you guys show your own ignorance by being so brash.
mac fanboys can claim all the freedom, personality and intelligence that a mac brings, there is more conformity among mac users.
no need to write a manifesto on the superiority of macintosh or pc: upgrading hardware or choosing software is always a limited option on macs, and that alone seals the deal.
besides, you can also look good with a pc: just wear nice shoes or something.
such hostility...It seems that you yourself have something to lose. Are you an investor in Microsoft? You sure do promote them. Is close-minded approach how you approach design as well? "I will use nothing but bricks in my design, they are superior to everything..." "Screw that hipster steel and glass..."
who's being hostile here?
don't feel threatened, optimk.
you are misunderstanding my point: having both platforms at home, i find macs better to look at than to actually work on.
I agree with your thoughts, but if you ever get the time and/or an open mind, just make a (say) 600 mb photoshop file and try to open it on the latest G5 and also the equivalent PC. See which opens faster and then try to work on them. Let me know which one is faster. I am saying this because i have experienced this. In our office, we have 2 powerbooks,a dual G4 and a dual G5 and 2 pcs - an older sony one and the new opteron i mentioned before.
I have run benchmark tests on them and this information is first hand.
As far as your car anaologies - i would compare apple computers not to bmw m3 but to a mazda rx8. and pc computers to any other engines out there (I or V or flat)... is rotary technology better - definately it is....much faster with much less volume. But at the same time you have to look for specialized repair people, parts etc. etc.
It does not make sense IF YOU HAVE A LIMITED BUDGET. Not everyone has the $$$ to go buy and maintain a Rx-8, while the performance of a toyota celica is just as good.(never mind the looks)
'you get what you pay for. Real stainless, real aluminum, not a made in china plastic knock off' - dont kid yourself, man - every company is running after the money, for the record my new ipod is also 'made in china' and the newest apple suite with pages and keynote HAS A SERIAL NUMBER system too. Just like windows software. Please remember that 49% of apple is microsoft too.
As for different types of software and hardware, the amount of hardware and software that will work on a pc is infinately more than compared to a mac. Thats all changing now, but theres still time to achieve a balance.
As for pcs copying the mac, please remember that it was the mac that copied the 3-button system of the pc.
All in all, i will reiterate that though the mac has a better os, though it is more solid, though it looks better, its slower than a comparable pc for THE PRICE. My dream is to have both of them sitting side by side, but i am going to wait till i have the $$$
sorry, becuase this thread has also turned into a public pissing thread of mac/pc
Actually Apple was the first computer company to bring the mouse, icons and windows together in a package. Windows came off of this. See the apple lisa of 82-83.
i apologize too.
mac/pc debate somehow always end up breaking loose.
my main concern about using mac is that it's a ready-made piece of hardware, finished in its confined yet well-designed form.
its main advantage is its main default: it is a bundle.
when buying a mac, you get almost everything with it: hardware, programs, warranty, stability, style. cool, but when wanting more computing speed over time, you're stuck with more memory/storage, at best.
and soon enough you'll find yourself desiring the next new and slightly faster big mac, each one of them seasonly marketed as a fashion item.
I don't think you can really compare the two types of computers to houses or cars when it comes to design and price.
A computer will be useful for 2-3 years at best if you're intending to buy something that is high performance. So spending $3000 compared to $2000 on something with such a short lifespan is not always the smartest idea. Until laptop cases allow for easy updating of their components, I don't think I can justify buying a mac -- especially, as 'sameolddoctor' has mentioned, PCs are definitely faster on comparably priced machines -- I work on both platforms extensively and there is just no performance comparison.
I'd love to pay for the design and functionality of a mac if it's going to last more than a couple years. Unfortunately, the way computers are designed and built, they have to be cheap, expendable, high-performance machines.
my earlier statements were intentionally brash.. a reaction to the overt brashness of every apple user i've ever met. as for my ignorance, it's merely based on experience and knowledge of both products... not really fair to call that ignorance... when i used apple on my internship for instance, doing primarily 3d modeling/graphic design, had tons of problems. brand new apple, etc.. but as all cpus do, it would break down/crash. not saying pcs don't do this too, they certainly do (though in my experience - which seems to be absolutely unique according to every apple user i've ever spoken with - the apple broke down more often than the pc), the big difference to me is that when a pc breaks down, you can fix it. when an apple breaks down, you've got to take it to a repairshop. i know apple's gotten better with this recently, but it's still irksome. other than that, i can't stand the superiority complex apple users seem to exude.
as has been said already.. this argument always leads to nastiness. :)
zeppelin, maybe you should really go check out a recent config pc computer.
You remind me of my boss, who is a mac afficionado, and keeps talking trash about pcs all the time - the truth is that he has never used a pc, and all this judgements are based on how the interface looks.
well, i didn't want to bring this up but... i am actually an order of magnitude more intelligent since i bought a mac. i am much better looking, far luckier, and under dim lighting conditions, you can actually see a halo beginning to form around my head. I walk down the street and detect that i am in fact phrenologically superior to everyone else. It's lonely, but i'm learning to cope.
(btw, even granted the totally different system and os architecture of the mac, I think its unwise to start arguing that the mac is more powerful hands-down than a pc, because i just don't think its true.)
The argument on which machine is faster is futile. Macs are faster and more stable when used for Graphics or Complex mathmatical equations becuases of how they process data. Plus your average mac lasts longer, I have a powerbook g4 667 and a powermac g4 450, and a brand new g5. The powermac g4 450 is a workhouse and about 5.5 years old. If you know what you are doing you can update just as much stuff in a mac. Mac laptops also have battery life of about 5.5 hours or more depending on what kind of work you are doing. The best reason? My mac is also a unix box, wimdows can't even touch that.
mac or windows?
Im just curious how many people use mac systems.
ive heard that there is no CAD for mac OS.
my schools lab does not have any mac workstations.
we have many imacs at other labs, theyre just ridiculously slow.
how are powerbooks? Ive heard that theyre good for graphics..
does anyone have any cons or pros to share?
many offices i know of use mac OS. the cad application of choice being VectorWorks.
i think mac is the "l33t" choice.... running the risk of inducing a mac-windoze flamewar: u get more punch for your bucks with a windoze; mac is pure style, granted, but u probably cant beat the pure force offered by a (in comparison) not-so-expensive, say, dual-opteron PC.
but then, hey! guess it boils down to personal preference; usability esp. w/ OSX is sheer beauty, and by now u get most apps for MAC, anyways. i'd always opt for PC- and dont be fooled by school-labs.. a lot of the times they're on a tight budget, who'd blame them for buying more PCs so more people can use the lab instead of fewer G5s having to be used by 5 ppl at once *lol*
I've got a Mac at home and a PC at the office. If it wasn't for AutoCAD I would dump the PC at the office and live happily ever after.
I've used Vectorworks, PowerCADD, ArchiCAD, and SketchUp on my MAC and have at times run AutoCAD through a PC emulator - Virtual PC.
If they would come out with a version of AutoCAD for OSX I would never touch a PC again.
not wanting to get into noci's flamewar- i cant help myself- its rubbish.
Macs make far better use of the processing power by running a better designed(not just graphically) operating sytem that is extremely stable.
What this means is that you need less mac processing power comparative to a pc for the same result. That is the reason why macs look like they have lower processors- because they dont need as much as a pc would need. That being said- dual processor g5's with endless capabilites for expansion are pretty much the fastest thing anyone would need, which is why they are increasingly being used as part of supercomputers.
With regards to cad and mac- the main choice is vectorworks, with form•z the real choice for 3d, which is also available on pc too.
There is a choice for a lot of other software, and i would make the argument that you can be a lot more productive on a mac than a pc, simply from the versatility that the interface offers.
Initially it can be more expensive as a set up, but with the arrival of mini macs- that could all change, and even ibooks have g4 chips now.
i'm with dang, have both, specially if you intend to do other stuff like music or video editing, the hardware compatibility in macs for these fields is much beter (they are industry standard). but you have to know stuff like autocad and 3dsmax, so you'll need a pc as well. you can gat away with vectorworks, sketchup , cinema 4d etc, but you have to know the industry standards in archiecture...
mac: buy a 12" laptop
pc: built your own!
yeah, mini macs.... i wonder how you can describe *those* as high-performance machines..
but i agree with you on OSX.. having unix under the hood pays off big time. :)
yes mini macs aren't really high performace, but at that price they are pretty accesssible, which i think is the idea.
not having many problems with my dual g4 and 1.5gig of ram though!
off-topic..heard some rumors by x cringeley once that allegedly apple is planning to do video-on-demand via itunes.. and that the mini is the integral hi-fi-size device to do the displaying.. nice idea though, and also explains the price..
PC at work, PC at home, and a mac laptop. I bought the laptop becasue I wanted it for its video abilities. In terms of raw performance, my Dell 2.4HT KILLS the mac. I like the design of the laptop itself, and using it is a pleasure. I'm not quite as efficient on the mac as I am on the PC, but that may be the learning curve.
ive heard that autodesk was working on a mac version of autoCAD.... i donno if thats true though..................
Macs are similar to a super efficent honda civic with a 250 HP vtec dropped inside. PCs are similar to a truck that weighs 5000lbs with a 320 hp motor. If you look at horse power alone, the truck looks faster, however becuase the civic is lighter and has more HP going to the wheel, the Civic becomes the faster car.
don't disregard torque, tho :)
When it comes down to making a choice on what computer to buy I think you need to go with whatever you are comfortable with, especially when you are doing work for yourself. I have found that in the industry the business is dominated by the .dwg file type. It is what we use to exchange files between different consultants and engineers. As long as that is the case I imagine that PC's and AutoCAD will rule. I've been hearing rumours about a AutoCAD version for OSX for a couple of years now, but I know AutoDesk dumped the Mac version of AutoCAD back with AutoCAD 12 because the market was not large enough to support it. I doubt enough has changed since then to see a new version of AutoCAD for the Mac. In any case I can use Vectorworks and PowerCADD at home on my Mac and easily convert these files to .dwg if needed and use on my PC at work
so optimk,
according to your analogy:
pcs must also be much more stable and/or built for heavy duty tasks?
sirgemhl
If you want to look cool when working in da starbuck, get a mac powerbook, an ipod, and prada sneakers.
If your work needs to comply efficiently and seamlessly with other AEC industry-strandard fields, engineers, contractors,,, get PCs.
Otherwise, get both.
mac based here.
I use both:
Office: P4/WinXP & AutoCad 2000
Home: dual G5/OSX & VectorWorks 11/ Cinema 4D 8.5
Kensington Expert Mouse trackball on both systems remains one of my favorite aspects of either. I prefer the VW to the ACad, but it will run on either platform.
xp is good, and has better cad software, but for anything else i prefer my powerbook for about a million little reasons:
-silent computer
-sleeps and wakes instantly
-expose
-being able to tell one jpg to open in photoshop and another in preview, and have the system remember the difference for each file
-two-finger scrolling on the mousepad
-dmg files
-pdf printing built into system
-applications that don't dump files all over your hard drive
-digital cameras that work without installing extra drivers
but its a preference thing, not a religion.
btw, and/or: you must be american. i think its hilarious that americans think starbucks is a fancy poser joint. here (nz) starbucks is only marginally better than buying coffee at mcdonalds.
agfa8x, easy there. not all americans think starbucks serve up good coffee. to add to your list above >> viruses? what viruses?
sorry, not trying to offend!
agfa8x:
How about a half-decaf/half-expresso iced non fat mocha latte with whipped cream with your low-key, down to earth donut?
I am not preaching PCness, I use and appreciate both platforms, but there's something about those white earbuds as a social status that make me smile.
its mainly about the price
anyone who thinks that a dual pc (say an dual opteron like mine) with souped up graphics card, 2 gb ram etc is inferior to a G4 FOR THE SAME MONEY
i've heard Rhino 3.0 runs well on Mac using Virtual PC.
Any Mac people that can confirm or deny this?
I can take my PC apart, and add bits, I understand how it works.
I like it for these reasons.
It is also cheaper.
And look very nice.
its mainly about the price
anyone who thinks that a dual pc (say an dual opteron like mine) with souped up graphics card, 2 gb ram etc is inferior to a G4 FOR THE SAME MONEY knows nothing about computers, or is too blinded by brand
we built my opteron workstation for aprox. $ 2100 with the following specs:
kick ass msi mobo - with two 2.0 ghz 64-bit opteron processors (highly comparable to the g5 processors)
nvidia quadro fx500 video card
80 + 160 gb hard drives
win xp pro etc etc
yes cd and dvd burner
creative zl2 sound card (which alone is a 150$?)
2 gb of ram
now compare a g5 with similar specs
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/70302/wo/oq1wkfIqQIQk2zbcOOKLsjnxPLk/2.0.11.1.0.6.3
the g5 definately looks better and osX is definately great...but i can pay a 1000$ less and still get better performance with my PC. Yes i have opened and have worked with very large photoshop files on both my pc and the g5, and still my pc runs faster.
i have to add - if i had the $$$ i would buy the aforesaid g5 too
don't forget applecare.
Mission St.:
Rhino on VPC is kinda crappy if you ask me - I had both programs kickin' around so I gave it a go. I have a dual 1.8 G5 w/ 2.5gig of memory and I wasn't impressed. It works, but its just not very snappy. Its too bad they're not planning on porting Rhino to OSX, it would be a nice package to have for the platform.
i got both...a sony vaio laptop and a 15" g4 powerbook...
i use the apple all the time now..but use the pc for autocad
and all my financial stuff...the g4 is really nice lookin...and
does run quieter..and has longer battery life...and doesn't
have a cracked screen like my sony does...plus it's far thinner...
i like em both...and like that i have a basic ability to fix em both.
we go both ways. web, graphics, drafting and 3d on PC, so far just video on the Mac, then i can do other work while things render or capture.
would be a great resource to look at. Several great CAD programs run on OS X. If you're forced into AutoCAD world, VPC will let you run that on your mac too, no problem. Its RAM hungry so make sure you have a lot of it. Anything that's graphic intensive will not work well under VPC, like Rhino or 3-D games. PC is a better choice if you're set on Rhino. Mac has other applications for rendering, look at Architosh.
It takes a special person to buy, use and appreciate an Apple computer. Its not just for design people, affluent & intelligent people are core Apple costumers. I've been in technology for about 15 years and without a doubt, Apple computers are superior to anything else out there. Period. Are Apple computers perfect? No, and most importantly, an Apple computer is not a right choice for everyone, no matter how superior it is. It is important to evaluate your particular needs because Windows may be more logical, both to use and to implement.
I find the $$$ arguments very irrational & stupid (I hope no offense is taken) for three reasons. First, you're comparing a regular product to a designer product! Stop it! Would it be fair to compare prices of a cookie cutter suburban house to (name your favorite architect here)'s house??? As architects, as designers, we should appreciate that everyone doesn't choose to live in identical houses. We should appreciate the thought/work that makes an ordinary object a special one, just because something appears to be cheaper doesn't necessarily make it better. It just makes it cheaper. If you don't agree with me you'll be happier with Windows.
Second, you can get a new Mustang GT for $25,000, or a BWM M3 for $55,000. Modify the Ford to make it faster & etc and you still have a Ford, the same car that up to this last revision had FAKE air intakes on its doors. No one will mistake your Ford for M3 no matter how many mods you do (not just looks, M3's aluminum will be real aluminum and chrome will be stainless.) or - a nice Laz-y Boy can be had sub-$1000, with cup holders and even a place to put your remote. Comparing that to a Barcelona chair is comparing PC vs Mac. Some find Laz-y Boy's great but some people want more.
Third, I really hate when people compare PC spec's in to Macs. Although both Mac and PC's use identical RAM sticks, their operating systems use that memory in much different ways. 256MB on a PC is not the same as 256MB on a Mac. OS X has a very sophisticated way to deal with RAM, it does more with less. Same applies to CPU speed. The amount of work flow I can handle simultaneously on my Apple beats any "faster" PC's any day. Apple is just more intuitive to use. I recently installed a Hard Drive. A 12 page setup booklet was ALL for Windows and it specifically said that OS X had no set up instructions. It kinda made me laugh. Its all plug in and use.
Another thing people fail to consider is the buisness model of the two. Microsoft is all about money. There is a multibillion war going on in the computer world at the moment. Microsoft vs. Open Source. MS wants to keep all the standards closed & make money off EVERYTHING through direct selling or licensing. The other side is open source (unix/linux/apple), all based on free standards. Apple is UNIX, you and your mom can download what makes every Apple work for free and do with it whatever your heart desires. You say Apple is money hungry too, look at the prices. You get what you pay for. Real stainless, real aluminum, not a made in china plastic knock off, and thats what you pay for. Windows costumer service is somewhere in India. Apple costumer service is in the US. We know good design is not free. I think $$$ arguments are stupid. If you think Apple is bad, look at what Microsoft does. Biggest complaint against Windows is Viruses/Spyware. People bitch, Microsoft buys an anti-virus company from NY. Are they going to make Windows better? Will you get free antivirus? No, Microsoft decided to sell anti-virus because they build a crap OS. Would you keep paying Ford to replace your doors because they didn't design the car properly and they keep falling off? Windows get viruses because Windows has build quality of a Yugo. The argument that less people use Mac so its less prone to viruses is nonsense. Everyone knows how a lock works yet it seems to do a pretty good job of keeping people out. When I read press releases by Microsoft, I'm amazed that people actually buy into what the say. Thats ignorance for you. I hate how money driven Microsoft is and its one of the reasons I don't want anything to do with them ever again.
Apple invented the PC and it keeps innovating the PC. Windows has been following Mac since the beginning. Its not a matter of which is better, we have different needs, it a matter which is better for you. Everyone doesn't need to have the innovator because being the innovator is a con in itself for obvious reasons.
yeah, what he/she said...
Nicely done Zeplin 100. Before people start spewing their opinions its good to analyze the issue and use reason to figure it out.
PC. Having used both, I prefer PC over Apple immensely. My advice, flush all apples down the toilet. Can't stand how people just assume I'm a Mac user when they find out I'm a designer. Yeah right, and I drive a VW bug, wear boxy black glasses, etc. etc..
Apple's rotten to the core.
gray, for as many ppl that have you opinion others will have the opposite. i also have used both, but i would not flush either down the toilet. i love my mac. not sure how they are rotten to the core.
i believe what gray wants to say is that apple is a *company* just as MS is one.
mind the latest lawsuits filed against whistleblower-blogsites; consider iTunes DRM and the war against Real; consider the feature-wise de-specked iPods in order to comply with the needs of the copyright cartels (limited recording capabilities, anyone!)- and so forth.
yup, ideology aside- they deliver nicely designed products for the people who want them- but at the core, they're out there to lock you down and get your money, all nicely packed up in that stupid "better design for better people" mentality.
it's the asumption of a differing corporate ideology which is rotten to the core- apple ain't different in that department. but then, perhaps the obvious charme their products emanate kind of makes up for it in the public opinion.
Apple serves a niche, mainly people in the graphics industry who need the ability to prrint postscript typefaces and also a lot of power to process big graphic files. Apple does this hands down better than Microsoft. PCs use truetype fonts (any professional printhouse worth thier salt will not accept this format). Apples also utilize their unix underpinnings to be highly adaptable and customizeble to a varied number of working conditions.
PCs have their merits, mainly that they are uniform and inexpensive.
These are 2 differents tools for 2 different kinds of work. To trash one is to be taken in by mindless marketing.
noci and gray: you guys show your own ignorance by being so brash.
mac fanboys can claim all the freedom, personality and intelligence that a mac brings, there is more conformity among mac users.
no need to write a manifesto on the superiority of macintosh or pc: upgrading hardware or choosing software is always a limited option on macs, and that alone seals the deal.
besides, you can also look good with a pc: just wear nice shoes or something.
optimk, agreed on you thoughts on the differences in platforms.
And / or:
such hostility...It seems that you yourself have something to lose. Are you an investor in Microsoft? You sure do promote them. Is close-minded approach how you approach design as well? "I will use nothing but bricks in my design, they are superior to everything..." "Screw that hipster steel and glass..."
Use your brain.
who's being hostile here?
don't feel threatened, optimk.
you are misunderstanding my point: having both platforms at home, i find macs better to look at than to actually work on.
-use your brain, too.
strange, i've never had problems with my mac or the hardware/software that is needed to do what i do.
I'm just amazed at your incredible bias, and your inability to creatively find the merits of each platform.
Oh well, I can't teach you how to think.
zeppelin,
I agree with your thoughts, but if you ever get the time and/or an open mind, just make a (say) 600 mb photoshop file and try to open it on the latest G5 and also the equivalent PC. See which opens faster and then try to work on them. Let me know which one is faster. I am saying this because i have experienced this. In our office, we have 2 powerbooks,a dual G4 and a dual G5 and 2 pcs - an older sony one and the new opteron i mentioned before.
I have run benchmark tests on them and this information is first hand.
As far as your car anaologies - i would compare apple computers not to bmw m3 but to a mazda rx8. and pc computers to any other engines out there (I or V or flat)... is rotary technology better - definately it is....much faster with much less volume. But at the same time you have to look for specialized repair people, parts etc. etc.
It does not make sense IF YOU HAVE A LIMITED BUDGET. Not everyone has the $$$ to go buy and maintain a Rx-8, while the performance of a toyota celica is just as good.(never mind the looks)
'you get what you pay for. Real stainless, real aluminum, not a made in china plastic knock off' - dont kid yourself, man - every company is running after the money, for the record my new ipod is also 'made in china' and the newest apple suite with pages and keynote HAS A SERIAL NUMBER system too. Just like windows software. Please remember that 49% of apple is microsoft too.
As for different types of software and hardware, the amount of hardware and software that will work on a pc is infinately more than compared to a mac. Thats all changing now, but theres still time to achieve a balance.
As for pcs copying the mac, please remember that it was the mac that copied the 3-button system of the pc.
All in all, i will reiterate that though the mac has a better os, though it is more solid, though it looks better, its slower than a comparable pc for THE PRICE. My dream is to have both of them sitting side by side, but i am going to wait till i have the $$$
sorry, becuase this thread has also turned into a public pissing thread of mac/pc
Actually Apple was the first computer company to bring the mouse, icons and windows together in a package. Windows came off of this. See the apple lisa of 82-83.
i apologize too.
mac/pc debate somehow always end up breaking loose.
my main concern about using mac is that it's a ready-made piece of hardware, finished in its confined yet well-designed form.
its main advantage is its main default: it is a bundle.
when buying a mac, you get almost everything with it: hardware, programs, warranty, stability, style. cool, but when wanting more computing speed over time, you're stuck with more memory/storage, at best.
and soon enough you'll find yourself desiring the next new and slightly faster big mac, each one of them seasonly marketed as a fashion item.
zepplin100,
I don't think you can really compare the two types of computers to houses or cars when it comes to design and price.
A computer will be useful for 2-3 years at best if you're intending to buy something that is high performance. So spending $3000 compared to $2000 on something with such a short lifespan is not always the smartest idea. Until laptop cases allow for easy updating of their components, I don't think I can justify buying a mac -- especially, as 'sameolddoctor' has mentioned, PCs are definitely faster on comparably priced machines -- I work on both platforms extensively and there is just no performance comparison.
I'd love to pay for the design and functionality of a mac if it's going to last more than a couple years. Unfortunately, the way computers are designed and built, they have to be cheap, expendable, high-performance machines.
my earlier statements were intentionally brash.. a reaction to the overt brashness of every apple user i've ever met. as for my ignorance, it's merely based on experience and knowledge of both products... not really fair to call that ignorance... when i used apple on my internship for instance, doing primarily 3d modeling/graphic design, had tons of problems. brand new apple, etc.. but as all cpus do, it would break down/crash. not saying pcs don't do this too, they certainly do (though in my experience - which seems to be absolutely unique according to every apple user i've ever spoken with - the apple broke down more often than the pc), the big difference to me is that when a pc breaks down, you can fix it. when an apple breaks down, you've got to take it to a repairshop. i know apple's gotten better with this recently, but it's still irksome. other than that, i can't stand the superiority complex apple users seem to exude.
as has been said already.. this argument always leads to nastiness. :)
zeppelin, maybe you should really go check out a recent config pc computer.
You remind me of my boss, who is a mac afficionado, and keeps talking trash about pcs all the time - the truth is that he has never used a pc, and all this judgements are based on how the interface looks.
well, i didn't want to bring this up but... i am actually an order of magnitude more intelligent since i bought a mac. i am much better looking, far luckier, and under dim lighting conditions, you can actually see a halo beginning to form around my head. I walk down the street and detect that i am in fact phrenologically superior to everyone else. It's lonely, but i'm learning to cope.
(btw, even granted the totally different system and os architecture of the mac, I think its unwise to start arguing that the mac is more powerful hands-down than a pc, because i just don't think its true.)
The argument on which machine is faster is futile. Macs are faster and more stable when used for Graphics or Complex mathmatical equations becuases of how they process data. Plus your average mac lasts longer, I have a powerbook g4 667 and a powermac g4 450, and a brand new g5. The powermac g4 450 is a workhouse and about 5.5 years old. If you know what you are doing you can update just as much stuff in a mac. Mac laptops also have battery life of about 5.5 hours or more depending on what kind of work you are doing. The best reason? My mac is also a unix box, wimdows can't even touch that.
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