Im a student wanting to study architecture in a year and have wanted to become an architect for the past two year. But you guys are totally putting me off due to your oh so depressing posts.
You expect people to want to spend several years studying for a life like what you guys are saying. No way, not me, not ever!
I believe that if you are good, if you are persistant, if you are confident in your self and most imporatntly you have pssion for what you do then you will become a very successful architect.
that plus contacts and a shitload of money. remember the famous saying:
"How do you make a small fortune in architecture? Start with a large one."
don't hate playas hate the game.
"I believe that if you are good, if you are persistant, if you are confident in your self and ...you have pssion ...you will become a very successful architect."
if that is so, then why question it by others' comments?
just do it. dont worry about what others are saying. neither should you negate the idea that some of it isn't just "depressing posts". might just be closer to "truth"
pay is 99% of the problem, lets face that, if we got paid a lot more the respect that we all bitch about would be there as well. We don't get enough money for our dedication and intelligence. Most architects are extemely smart and well rounded people. The fact that everyone thinks they are an architect is true but everyone thinks they know everything so you never can escape that.
BUT,
Sometimes common sense must be used to figure a few things out.
The popular belief is go into law and you will make a lot of money, go into architecture and you won't
this is flawed in a way, if you work for an architecture firm that doesn't pay overtime and works you 90-100 hours a week then of course you are correct, you are getting screwed.
however, i have friends graduating from law school and will be making $100,000 min a year. they will be working 12-14 hour days 6 days a week. Difficult work, in big name big compitition law firms. if you make 45 g's and work 40 hours a week double the hours then double the pay. working 80 hours a week at 90 g's is similar to law.....the chances of climbing the ladder is better in law than architecture sure. I'm not saying it is the same, i'm just saying that when people compare salaries they fail to take certain things into account.
I know a lot of business and tech consultants, they make 80-100 at my age but they work twice as many hours as I do.
See the above link as well, i posted that first topic cause i feel the same way, architects bitch a lot, but we love what we do.
OK what all of you guys have said is fine but I believe you get what you EXPECT out of life. If you entered architecture thinking your work was going to be restricted, your income low, your working hours long then that becomes your reality.
If you need any proof of this next time your in a congested area looking for parking space, expect that you will find parking space instead of thinking "how the hell am I going to get parking space here!!" and see what happens....you'll be very surprised.
You can think that this is all psychological babble but look at successful people in any field (even architectue) and i can guarentee you that they are optimistic and expect the best from their lives, just like that jock that was talked about in "Why are architects so depressed" posted by "soleproprietornow".
IADR, I'm just working from experience. especially from an east-coast perspective. new york is a culture of insiders. it also depends on what you're idea of "making it" is. if it is to make money, don't focus on design. if it's to focus on design, don't come crying to me five years down the road.
Ok, maybe I am too old for that self actualization, think and get rich, power of positive thinking stuff to work, but last time I was looking for a parking space in close it didn't seem to matter how hard I concentrated, they were all taken. Now the other day when I really had all the time in the world and didn't care where I parked, I happened upon someone backing out of a space right near the front door to Lowe's, and happily took it. Go figure.
I don't mean to discount the importance of optimism and a good attitude, but pollyanna only goes so far. There is a whole lot more to be said for connections and money when it comes to becoming successful in any field, and especially in architecture. as anatomical gift said, you have to be realistic.
If you are really good at what you do, the money will follow. My husband and I are both architects, and we do quite fine, thank you very much. We have peers who are much less well off financially, but it is because there skill level is lower. And I don't mean skill level in 'design'. Can you bring work into your firm by making contacts at places like your school board meetings and your volunteer work? Can you manage a project? Can you manage other people? Have you made yourself so important to your boss and your office that they will pay you well, and reward you with bonuses or ownership if you stay?
architecture is a better proffession it is related to the arts and the crafts it involves sensibility, it involves higher states of mind, when considered in this mannerit is very fullfilling and this could compensate the relative amount of money earned.
It is evident that if the time invested in these aspects is inverted in marketing and making the work sell, it is very possible to make lots more money and thus creating another type of satisfaction.
Being a lawyer is a good bussiness, period.
MBAs and other people simply think about the money, all their efforts are oriented towards this, an architects life is not like that, an architects thinks of other things, an architect goes much beyond. As a proffession generically speaking it could make as much money as any other, it just depends how much time and effort and resources are allocated in making the money.
It's these damn positive thinkers and Tony Robbins graduates who are ruining the profession, what with their can do it attitude and all...just be as good as you can be indeed. Goodness has nothing to do with it. Go rent "All About Eve" for the ultimate designer prima dona cautionary tale.
But I swear to god the parking lot thing is ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
geezer....you mean you can focus and concentrate and make those spaces materialize? if so, I wanna know where you are getting those peyote buttons or whatever is helping you along that path to enlightenment and beauty and truth and all that.
All i'm saying is that most of the posts here are very depressing and could be putting off future talent going into this field. It just seems that there's a endless cycle of negative posts with nothing positive to say.
I'm not saying that thinking positively will give you these magic powers or whatever which help you find parking space or achieving a goal, i'm just saying it helps and i know from experience that it helps a lot. Think about it. There are two types of people. The ones which are optimists and the ones which are pesimistic. (Ive done psyc so I know about the power of the mind and stuff). The ones which think positively get an extra boost of "energy" which makes them go for a goal-for example passing an exam. However, the pesimist is like why should I bother, i'm dumb, I cant do this i'm incapable, this causes them not to even bother and the fear of failure causes them to fail there exams.
And the thing is if your crap at something, like architecture, you can improve it, by woking harder, doing extra training etc, and thats the same with allthings in life. If your crap at getting girls you can learn the skills you need to get girls.
the all black clad thick rim wearing arch interns will never understand anything beyond that unending whip sound they choose to bear and the autocad on their screen....
IADR,
if you let a bunch of jaded people influence your decision to become an architect than you are making a HUGE mistake. My entire life people have told me to get out of this field (i have a lot of architects in my family). I never understood why people would discourage others from becoming an architect and I still don't. I love working as an architect and just can't imagine doing anything else. My friends work in fortune 500 firms and are miserable. Why not do something that you love. You only get one go round in this life, he who dies with the most toys still dies, do something you like.
I'm not discouraging anyone from becoming an architect. I just think that you should be realistic about the profession. Success obviously means different things to different people. I just don't think that it comes when you wish for it.
anatomical gift:
Success obviously means different things to different people. I just don't think that it comes when you wish for it.
I agree with the point you make that success means different things to different people. It can being revolutionary in the industry, making a lot of money etc. But on your second point I dont fully agree. If you ask a wealthy person did you always want to be rich, they are going to say yes. Take an architecure firm for example. If it goes bust you can't say "oh well, it was just bad luck, better luck next time I guess". The reason the business failed has nothing to do with luck, the fact that it went bust is the entrepenures fault and not due to "bad luck". This is the reason why there are the leaders and the ones which are led.
Secondly, what your basically saying that there is no point in setting goals because you don't achieve it if beacuse your aking for it. Infact its the complet opposite. A recent study performed in Harvard found that only 2% of the students at the university wrote down their goals, the other 98% did not know what they wanted do after university. The 2% earnt 12 times more than those which did not write their goals or had a dream they wanted to achieve.
You can spout your Psych 101 crap all day long, I'm not arguing that lazy asses succede. You're not understanding the all of the issues here. You can be a great architect and make no money. You can be the best designer ever and die poor very easily. Great architecture does not go hand in hand with great money. Success here is twofold. Yes, you can be a great architect but if money is what you want, that's almost a completely seperate issue. If you want to be a great architect and make loads of money, then by all means go for it - it's a slippery slope my friend.
Look, just 'cause you work for something doesn't mean that you'll get it. I'm not being negative, I'm just pointing out an obvious fact. Some people do reach their dreams, others not; some are happy, others not.
Fact is, being a successful architect depends very much on skills beyond architecture's remit. Business acumen, contacts, and an affable personality, are arguably more critical to the success of your firm than your design skills. This fact is the number one source of bitterness, I think.
Also, please stop using "your" when you really mean "you're"; it's annoying.
I agree with you, anatomical gift, and Alan. Design talent alone does not guarantee success: there is much more to establishing a successful practice, some of which can be controlled, or at least influenced, and some of which is simply beyond control....like the economy tanking after 9/11....or the Fed raising interest rates....or the tax reform act of 1986 dramatically changing the sources of private investment money into limited partnerships. I am all in favor of having a good, positive attitude....it is depressing to work with pessimists....but as has been said (almost too often now), in this profession a healthy dose of realism is only prudent.
you can make those comments bout anything in life.....you can find bad things about EVERYTHING..........so what is your point?
Doctors pay crazy insurance........therefore someone should be a realist and talk down bout being a doctor and the entire profession.
Lawyers work crazy hours........therefore everyone in law school should quit.
IT people got hit hard by the internet bubble bust.........might as well become a farmer.......nope cause huge farms have destroyed the local small family farm................
stop making stupid comments....there are bad aspects about architecture, sure.... the whole point of this thread is that architects comment only on the shitty things time and time again.
be happy go design something.........iadr i feel ya.......i like architecture.....
no i go directly to my room after work, don't say a word to my roommates, grab a fifth of jack and have at it.....i drink alone in the dark with "paint it black" softly playing in the background....i only wear black because that is the color of my black soul, i am only happy when it rains outside, i once shot a rabbit to see it die picked it up and carried it to the neighbors dog, waited for the dog to lunge at it and beat it back with a baseball bat..........all of this because a client i had told me she didn't like my design, she wanted me to try it this other way.......it was too much cause i liked it the way i planned it out, forget the fact that she actually was paying for it.......i want to use cast in place concrete and i can't, i only made slightly more than the average american last year........architecture is evil.....my life is over, done, farewell all........................
From my experience and that of my dad's (design built firm) It is the end result that has kept the Architectural Interest alive. I wish I could say that I love my job because of the money, but I don't. I think I get paid well, but not as good as friends in other professions working similar hours. Will I get rich, not unless I become an owner or VP at a large firm.
What I love is Driving by something I designed, or detailed, or was involved with as a team member, and knowing that I contributed. I really enjoyed working on Healthcare projects, but not as much as Hospitality which gave me the greatest creative outlet, corporate is like not a creative or fun.
I wish we could do more for society, but the incentive is very low. Public works are rewarding but hardly make money for anyone.
The fact that the original post stated that we are depressing is true, as a Group Architects seem to be very logical so when good things happen we expected them to be good, when shit happens we complaint because we always get blamed, The contractor always fixes the Architects problems, at least that's what the client thinks, when we are right we get praise, when we make a mistake we get sued.
BTW if you want to make it as an ARCH, and make money become very efficient and work your 8+ hours and stay away from Forums.
Alan nailed it. Additionally, we are not trained to be successful.
Think of our training... caffeine crazed all nighters using words not fully understand to reflect philosphies barely grasped for academics...some of whom may have worked in the real world, or others who work in the real world but don't feel vindicated enough unless they "teach" although they have no training to do so other than caffeine crazed all nighters using words not fully understand to reflect philosphies barely grasped for academics...some of whom may have worked in the real world, or others who work in the real world but don't feel vindicated enough unless they "teach" although they have no training to do so other than caffeine crazed all nighters using words not fully understand to reflect philosphies barely grasped for academics...some of whom may have worked in the real world, or others who work in the real world but don't feel vindicated enough unless they "teach" although they have no training to do so other than
But points to IADR... he saw through my pathetic charade...I'm happy being miserable.
The reason why ppl are depressed is b/c once something comes out of your mind it has to submit itself to universal laws, budget, clients, materials, etc. Basically we get depressed b/c our creative impulses, ideas, etc. are put to the test and sometimes fail once they leave our mind.
Why are you guys so depressed?!?!
Im a student wanting to study architecture in a year and have wanted to become an architect for the past two year. But you guys are totally putting me off due to your oh so depressing posts.
You expect people to want to spend several years studying for a life like what you guys are saying. No way, not me, not ever!
I believe that if you are good, if you are persistant, if you are confident in your self and most imporatntly you have pssion for what you do then you will become a very successful architect.
that plus contacts and a shitload of money. remember the famous saying:
"How do you make a small fortune in architecture? Start with a large one."
don't hate playas hate the game.
futureboy...and let us not forget Philip Johnson's maxim: (paraphrased) "The secret to a successful architecture career is marrying rich."
if that is so, then why question it by others' comments?
just do it. dont worry about what others are saying. neither should you negate the idea that some of it isn't just "depressing posts". might just be closer to "truth"
Find some answers at this discussion
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=P1300_0_22_0_C
pay is 99% of the problem, lets face that, if we got paid a lot more the respect that we all bitch about would be there as well. We don't get enough money for our dedication and intelligence. Most architects are extemely smart and well rounded people. The fact that everyone thinks they are an architect is true but everyone thinks they know everything so you never can escape that.
BUT,
Sometimes common sense must be used to figure a few things out.
The popular belief is go into law and you will make a lot of money, go into architecture and you won't
this is flawed in a way, if you work for an architecture firm that doesn't pay overtime and works you 90-100 hours a week then of course you are correct, you are getting screwed.
however, i have friends graduating from law school and will be making $100,000 min a year. they will be working 12-14 hour days 6 days a week. Difficult work, in big name big compitition law firms. if you make 45 g's and work 40 hours a week double the hours then double the pay. working 80 hours a week at 90 g's is similar to law.....the chances of climbing the ladder is better in law than architecture sure. I'm not saying it is the same, i'm just saying that when people compare salaries they fail to take certain things into account.
I know a lot of business and tech consultants, they make 80-100 at my age but they work twice as many hours as I do.
See the above link as well, i posted that first topic cause i feel the same way, architects bitch a lot, but we love what we do.
OK what all of you guys have said is fine but I believe you get what you EXPECT out of life. If you entered architecture thinking your work was going to be restricted, your income low, your working hours long then that becomes your reality.
If you need any proof of this next time your in a congested area looking for parking space, expect that you will find parking space instead of thinking "how the hell am I going to get parking space here!!" and see what happens....you'll be very surprised.
You can think that this is all psychological babble but look at successful people in any field (even architectue) and i can guarentee you that they are optimistic and expect the best from their lives, just like that jock that was talked about in "Why are architects so depressed" posted by "soleproprietornow".
You're naive.
Also, no one "entered architecture thinking your work was going to be restricted, your income low, your working hours long."
Everyone feels they will be the exception. Few actually are. Some are happy, some are not.
Be realistic.
IADR, I'm just working from experience. especially from an east-coast perspective. new york is a culture of insiders. it also depends on what you're idea of "making it" is. if it is to make money, don't focus on design. if it's to focus on design, don't come crying to me five years down the road.
Ok, maybe I am too old for that self actualization, think and get rich, power of positive thinking stuff to work, but last time I was looking for a parking space in close it didn't seem to matter how hard I concentrated, they were all taken. Now the other day when I really had all the time in the world and didn't care where I parked, I happened upon someone backing out of a space right near the front door to Lowe's, and happily took it. Go figure.
I don't mean to discount the importance of optimism and a good attitude, but pollyanna only goes so far. There is a whole lot more to be said for connections and money when it comes to becoming successful in any field, and especially in architecture. as anatomical gift said, you have to be realistic.
If you are really good at what you do, the money will follow. My husband and I are both architects, and we do quite fine, thank you very much. We have peers who are much less well off financially, but it is because there skill level is lower. And I don't mean skill level in 'design'. Can you bring work into your firm by making contacts at places like your school board meetings and your volunteer work? Can you manage a project? Can you manage other people? Have you made yourself so important to your boss and your office that they will pay you well, and reward you with bonuses or ownership if you stay?
architecture is a better proffession it is related to the arts and the crafts it involves sensibility, it involves higher states of mind, when considered in this mannerit is very fullfilling and this could compensate the relative amount of money earned.
It is evident that if the time invested in these aspects is inverted in marketing and making the work sell, it is very possible to make lots more money and thus creating another type of satisfaction.
Being a lawyer is a good bussiness, period.
MBAs and other people simply think about the money, all their efforts are oriented towards this, an architects life is not like that, an architects thinks of other things, an architect goes much beyond. As a proffession generically speaking it could make as much money as any other, it just depends how much time and effort and resources are allocated in making the money.
It's these damn positive thinkers and Tony Robbins graduates who are ruining the profession, what with their can do it attitude and all...just be as good as you can be indeed. Goodness has nothing to do with it. Go rent "All About Eve" for the ultimate designer prima dona cautionary tale.
But I swear to god the parking lot thing is ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
"last time I was looking for a parking space in close it didn't seem to matter how hard I concentrated, they were all taken"
yeah, that sums it up. Too bad a lot of us missed that logic the first time around! The parking lot, I mean ;-)
geezer....you mean you can focus and concentrate and make those spaces materialize? if so, I wanna know where you are getting those peyote buttons or whatever is helping you along that path to enlightenment and beauty and truth and all that.
All i'm saying is that most of the posts here are very depressing and could be putting off future talent going into this field. It just seems that there's a endless cycle of negative posts with nothing positive to say.
I'm not saying that thinking positively will give you these magic powers or whatever which help you find parking space or achieving a goal, i'm just saying it helps and i know from experience that it helps a lot. Think about it. There are two types of people. The ones which are optimists and the ones which are pesimistic. (Ive done psyc so I know about the power of the mind and stuff). The ones which think positively get an extra boost of "energy" which makes them go for a goal-for example passing an exam. However, the pesimist is like why should I bother, i'm dumb, I cant do this i'm incapable, this causes them not to even bother and the fear of failure causes them to fail there exams.
And the thing is if your crap at something, like architecture, you can improve it, by woking harder, doing extra training etc, and thats the same with allthings in life. If your crap at getting girls you can learn the skills you need to get girls.
I didn't want to ask but...how old are you?
iadr,
you are absolutely correct. positivity.
the all black clad thick rim wearing arch interns will never understand anything beyond that unending whip sound they choose to bear and the autocad on their screen....
money runs the world....if you got it you can do what you want, if you don't you design Wal-marts
IADR,
if you let a bunch of jaded people influence your decision to become an architect than you are making a HUGE mistake. My entire life people have told me to get out of this field (i have a lot of architects in my family). I never understood why people would discourage others from becoming an architect and I still don't. I love working as an architect and just can't imagine doing anything else. My friends work in fortune 500 firms and are miserable. Why not do something that you love. You only get one go round in this life, he who dies with the most toys still dies, do something you like.
I'm not discouraging anyone from becoming an architect. I just think that you should be realistic about the profession. Success obviously means different things to different people. I just don't think that it comes when you wish for it.
anatomical gift:
Success obviously means different things to different people. I just don't think that it comes when you wish for it.
I agree with the point you make that success means different things to different people. It can being revolutionary in the industry, making a lot of money etc. But on your second point I dont fully agree. If you ask a wealthy person did you always want to be rich, they are going to say yes. Take an architecure firm for example. If it goes bust you can't say "oh well, it was just bad luck, better luck next time I guess". The reason the business failed has nothing to do with luck, the fact that it went bust is the entrepenures fault and not due to "bad luck". This is the reason why there are the leaders and the ones which are led.
Secondly, what your basically saying that there is no point in setting goals because you don't achieve it if beacuse your aking for it. Infact its the complet opposite. A recent study performed in Harvard found that only 2% of the students at the university wrote down their goals, the other 98% did not know what they wanted do after university. The 2% earnt 12 times more than those which did not write their goals or had a dream they wanted to achieve.
You can spout your Psych 101 crap all day long, I'm not arguing that lazy asses succede. You're not understanding the all of the issues here. You can be a great architect and make no money. You can be the best designer ever and die poor very easily. Great architecture does not go hand in hand with great money. Success here is twofold. Yes, you can be a great architect but if money is what you want, that's almost a completely seperate issue. If you want to be a great architect and make loads of money, then by all means go for it - it's a slippery slope my friend.
IADR:
Look, just 'cause you work for something doesn't mean that you'll get it. I'm not being negative, I'm just pointing out an obvious fact. Some people do reach their dreams, others not; some are happy, others not.
Fact is, being a successful architect depends very much on skills beyond architecture's remit. Business acumen, contacts, and an affable personality, are arguably more critical to the success of your firm than your design skills. This fact is the number one source of bitterness, I think.
Also, please stop using "your" when you really mean "you're"; it's annoying.
Thanks for the grammar correction Alan, that was really killing me too.
I agree with you, anatomical gift, and Alan. Design talent alone does not guarantee success: there is much more to establishing a successful practice, some of which can be controlled, or at least influenced, and some of which is simply beyond control....like the economy tanking after 9/11....or the Fed raising interest rates....or the tax reform act of 1986 dramatically changing the sources of private investment money into limited partnerships. I am all in favor of having a good, positive attitude....it is depressing to work with pessimists....but as has been said (almost too often now), in this profession a healthy dose of realism is only prudent.
you can make those comments bout anything in life.....you can find bad things about EVERYTHING..........so what is your point?
Doctors pay crazy insurance........therefore someone should be a realist and talk down bout being a doctor and the entire profession.
Lawyers work crazy hours........therefore everyone in law school should quit.
IT people got hit hard by the internet bubble bust.........might as well become a farmer.......nope cause huge farms have destroyed the local small family farm................
stop making stupid comments....there are bad aspects about architecture, sure.... the whole point of this thread is that architects comment only on the shitty things time and time again.
be happy go design something.........iadr i feel ya.......i like architecture.....
archit84 is realistic.
no i go directly to my room after work, don't say a word to my roommates, grab a fifth of jack and have at it.....i drink alone in the dark with "paint it black" softly playing in the background....i only wear black because that is the color of my black soul, i am only happy when it rains outside, i once shot a rabbit to see it die picked it up and carried it to the neighbors dog, waited for the dog to lunge at it and beat it back with a baseball bat..........all of this because a client i had told me she didn't like my design, she wanted me to try it this other way.......it was too much cause i liked it the way i planned it out, forget the fact that she actually was paying for it.......i want to use cast in place concrete and i can't, i only made slightly more than the average american last year........architecture is evil.....my life is over, done, farewell all........................
From my experience and that of my dad's (design built firm) It is the end result that has kept the Architectural Interest alive. I wish I could say that I love my job because of the money, but I don't. I think I get paid well, but not as good as friends in other professions working similar hours. Will I get rich, not unless I become an owner or VP at a large firm.
What I love is Driving by something I designed, or detailed, or was involved with as a team member, and knowing that I contributed. I really enjoyed working on Healthcare projects, but not as much as Hospitality which gave me the greatest creative outlet, corporate is like not a creative or fun.
I wish we could do more for society, but the incentive is very low. Public works are rewarding but hardly make money for anyone.
The fact that the original post stated that we are depressing is true, as a Group Architects seem to be very logical so when good things happen we expected them to be good, when shit happens we complaint because we always get blamed, The contractor always fixes the Architects problems, at least that's what the client thinks, when we are right we get praise, when we make a mistake we get sued.
BTW if you want to make it as an ARCH, and make money become very efficient and work your 8+ hours and stay away from Forums.
Alan nailed it. Additionally, we are not trained to be successful.
Think of our training... caffeine crazed all nighters using words not fully understand to reflect philosphies barely grasped for academics...some of whom may have worked in the real world, or others who work in the real world but don't feel vindicated enough unless they "teach" although they have no training to do so other than caffeine crazed all nighters using words not fully understand to reflect philosphies barely grasped for academics...some of whom may have worked in the real world, or others who work in the real world but don't feel vindicated enough unless they "teach" although they have no training to do so other than caffeine crazed all nighters using words not fully understand to reflect philosphies barely grasped for academics...some of whom may have worked in the real world, or others who work in the real world but don't feel vindicated enough unless they "teach" although they have no training to do so other than
But points to IADR... he saw through my pathetic charade...I'm happy being miserable.
The reason why ppl are depressed is b/c once something comes out of your mind it has to submit itself to universal laws, budget, clients, materials, etc. Basically we get depressed b/c our creative impulses, ideas, etc. are put to the test and sometimes fail once they leave our mind.
I just had to say that ICUP has got to be one of the best names on archinect, I hadn't thought of that since I was 8 or so. . .funny stuff.
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