In the past, the site has had a lot of discussion about team members change firms. These team members typically have low to mid level of experience (ten years or so max).
I'm wondering what more people experienced have encountered when looking to change firms. I'm thinking it would be a lot like getting back into dating after having been in a loooong term relationship. You know what you're doing but are kind of at a loss regarding the current process / culture.
People with 15+ years experience, any insight on this? Changing firms, not the dating. ;)
In my experience, the 15+ years making moves, are more likely in the following categories:
They got to see the inner sanctum and was disgusted by what they saw. But they haven't moved around at high level enough to realize that all firms are more or less the same in that regard.
They allowed their skill sets to become "stale", they got promoted / raised to a higher salary, but no longer bring in enough value to justify their cost. But politically they have "ensconced" into the organization so they can't be easily let go. Their firms will typically make them uncomfortable (poop-assignment, lack of assignment...) till they leave on their own.
Occasionally, another firm represents a better alignment now that one knows more clearly what one cares about, is good at, interested in,... after 15 years.
15 years is enough to stratify candidates skill sets and firm's expectation of a 15-year old. Significant pay discrepancies could also drive a move. In my case, after interviewing 5 firms (same city, all downtown, all big firms), my highest offer was 80% higher than my lowest offer. (I went with the middle offer, for reason #3.)
Those are all good reasons why an experienced person may be looking to change firms. Any insight / advice into the actual process changing firms?
Just to be clear - the persons experience wouldn't necessarily be at the same firm. Just overall years experience. I can't imagine what it would be like to leave a firm after 15 years - that would be challenging.
Practical one: it can be a bit tricky for a senior person to leave. Before you are ready, you probably don't want to arouse attention / cause unnecessary drama. When I made my move, I started wearing dress shoes and jacket, every day, for a couple of months before I started interviewing. Zero suspicion when I popped off to interviews. As senior person often gets interviewed multiple times, you'll likely need to disappear for a couple of hours during work hours many times. When / after I gave my 3-week notice, because I had been carrying myself as "polished professional" for months, I was treated as such by colleague I was leaving. Overall an positive experience.
Take your time. You interview the firms. You are selecting the next place you will devote a big chunk of your life.
I like how "Lean in" describe career path as a jungle gym: sometime, lateral moves are necessary for success. At 15 years, you are not in skill-acquisition mode of younger years. There's no longer a super clear trajectory of moving up. Maneuver towards what makes you feel fulfilled and happy, and generally success follows.
Just to be clear - I didn't ask this question because I'm expecting to move firms.
Don't misunderstand - I always try to keep my options open and pay attention to other opportunities. I asked this question because I know very few experienced architects who have made a move like this and I have no idea what it could be like.
The kinds of firms that would discriminate based on age, typically aren't the ones looking to hire somebody who knows their worth. Speaking as somebody with ~15 years experience, if I found out that most employees are in their twenties, that's a huge red flag.
I’m finding many firms want an exact fit or won’t offer a position. Younger candidates can check some of the boxes but older candidates must check all the boxes, no more and no less. At a higher salary, firms don’t want to waste time and money on you if you aren’t an exact match for what they need. Or they’ll offer a lower salary and you can work your way up again.
Jul 22, 24 10:15 pm ·
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zonker
At 14 years experience, I check 2/3rds of the boxes for Job Captain - so instead, I'm learning the latest archi-tech from students at UC Berkeley - I'm looking for an intermediate design position and am where I can afford a 20-30% pay cut from my last position as a job captain - also fast tracking ARE tests -
Currently, I can check all the boxes for intermediate designer, but qualifications have risen for JC, and no longer qualify(no client interface and no building dept. interface)
Jul 23, 24 6:15 pm ·
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reallynotmyname
Fast tracking ARE is essential for you. In my region of the US, 14 years with no license would lead a lot of firms to pass on interviewing you. Maybe also look at smaller firms where you could get some client and AHJ interaction.
I dunno. While not recommended, it's not a automatic pass by firms if you have other skills.
I didn't get licensed until later in my career. Graduated in 2002, licensed in 2016. I was a designer that focused on SD - DD. As such, I constantly pursued by firms that entire time to be a conceptual designer. Apparently they thought I was good at it.
Jul 24, 24 12:10 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I have one box that I can’t check and won’t be able to. I had another career for 10 years, some of it overlapping with architecture. I had 3 part time jobs at once too. They don’t like that. Zonkers, 14 years and still an intermediate designer doesn’t make sense. You can be a senior designer after 5-8 years. I applied for an entry level job yesterday in an adjacent field that pays almost 3 times what I made as an entry level in arch. I’m very qualified for it but I think I have 0% chance because of it. It’s tough out there. I hope your job search experience is better than mine, Chad.
I have no doubt that my experiences in this profession are unique. I started out my career as an actual designer. I'd literally be asked to layout, design, and present building concepts to clients. The clients liked my work. By my fifth year out of school the vanity wall in my office was all my work.
The projects weren't huge (around 50,000sf ) but It's was very stressful. I'd often have around eight days to come up with designs.
Jul 24, 24 12:37 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I was a designer on day one as well. I wasn’t the only designer though. I presented to clients all the time as a very junior designer. I am very good at drawing, talking, and listening. I agree it’s stressful but was great experience. When I was young, I got every job I applied to. Now I can barely get interviews and when I do, I don’t get the job. There’s a firm that wants me but it’s over an hour away with no traffic and I hate driving. Chad, I worked with your firm on a job once a long time ago. Before you were there. I’ve been in your office. :)
Small world! May I ask if it's the firm I'm currently with or a previous one?
I'm not as experienced as you, however I do wonder about being 'aged out' of future firms. I'm 46 and have pondered how long have before I basically need to stay at the firm I'm with or move on if I want a chance to be hired elsewhere. Similar to you, the nearest other opportunities are 4-6 hours away and would require me to move.
Jul 24, 24 1:17 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
Small world indeed. Current firm. I have 8 years of full time experience in a firm. 8 years experience as a freelancer working for other architects and 6 years as a firm owner, neither of those last two are full time and are concurrent. We are the same age.
Jul 24, 24 1:36 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I’ve been told to not count part-time work at all. So that drops me down to 8 years experience. Actually just 7. I can’t count.
Wilma Buttfit - If it would work for you, I know we're hiring. Shoot me a PM if you want. FYI - there are new owners and a new, relaxed culture here that promotes collaboration.
Side note: running your own firm?! Dang! I'm not that confident, experienced, or ambitious! Good on you!
Thanks! I’ll think about that. I don’t know how to start a new paragraph on my phone but starting my firm felt like my only option at the time. I don’t think it looks good to potential employers. I’m used to running the show and calling all the shots. I’m partner material, not employee. But no one is looking for a partner. I’ve had 3 partners and all 3 split off to do their own thing.
Spent most of my career on my own from 1989 until 2016. At that time (2016) I was offered and joined a NYC firm on a per project basis. It was a blast - completed well over $100 million of construction on my first project and COVID happened. I was furloughed initially for a few months. This dragged on and I was then told I was terminated and my insurance would be cancelled - I'm sure many went thru this. I was called back and it was the most miserable experience of my entire career. Another $80 or $90 million worth of construction completed and I was let go - and I'm thankful. I'm back on my own doing small work for very cool clients. Had a meeting with a 90 year old woman the other day who is set on a complete reno of here co-op I was never made for the corporate world and I have understood this for a very long time. How I ended of there is a problem of life situations, These days I promise myself - I will never be back there. Brutal years. and they weigh heavily. Be careful what you choose.. I choose quite serenity over bullshit corporate...that's just me folks. Corporate firms can kiss my ass. You can decide for yourself.
May I ask what made the second time back the most miserable experience of your career?
Jul 23, 24 3:01 pm ·
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pandahut
This hits close to home. Hoping to make it out from corporate as soon as feasible. Money can't buy you time. Thanks for this post and I'm glad you found spot for yourself that you're happy with. That's what we all deserve at the end of the day.
I had 11 years experience at a large corporate firm. I was looking to leave architecture field completely to pursue interior design. I “opened” my Linked-In to recruiters. I spoke to all who reached out to see what opportunities they had. Most fell off when they learned I wasn’t interested in an architecture firm.
About 6 months go by and a recruiter brings a role my way, an interior design role at an architecture firm. I don’t want to reveal the firm but they are very well known in the industry. I immediately hesitated but recruiter convinced me to just go have a chat with them.
It turned out to be a very good opportunity and fit for me. I took the role, a promotion, and a 65% pay increase. I hired my own team within 3 months. My hours reduced and I have a “seat at the table”.
Don’t sleep on recruiters, be open to change, and don’t give up on yourself.
Recruiters - make sure they actually have relationships with firms, and will listen to you and find the right match. For experienced people some firms tend to rely on trusted recruiters before they post job openings. They want to maintain relationships with firms and find the right people because it’s beneficial to everyone. The recruiters to avoid are the ones that will send your resume to the same job postings you find online.
Older architects (like me) tend to undervalue their experience next to the speed and technical knowledge of younger cohorts. This is a mistake. The things that make a good building never go out of style and the ability to wield one's experience to that end is your reward to sticking to this wonderful profession. Good luck and lean in to your wisdom!
I’ve purposely kept up with the speed and technology of the younger architects- I have to, or I’m relegated to mundane repetitive tasks in hopes I will quit
Woops accidently pressed post. Meant to say graduating at the tail end of the 08 recession, switching jobs every few years for better opportunities and career growth, then the COVID furloughs and layoffs... I feel like I've been around. Not saying I'm the most experienced but I feel like I've seen shit. I've never jumped firms willy nilly but IMO it's important to keep an eye on how you're feeling. I was doing a lot of pm work and not making enough at a hcol area at my last job. Learned a lot and moved to an engineering firm w a growing architecture division. Working on a huge design build project that has been extremely challenging but I'm learning lots. It's important to keep your edges sharp no matter where you're at, early career or 20 plus years in.
I've worked with people fresh out of UC Berkeley and CCA in San Francisco, they are sharp and easily move into positions that require 5 years or more experience. They know AI, GH, Rhino and Revit, they are pushing out many overpaid experienced but did not stay sharp job captains that "retired on active duty" so to speak
Knowing certain programs is nice. It's not a measure of experience though. A mentor of mine once said 'I don't care if you know a program. We can teach you that. We hired you to do good design. That's something you can't be taught'.
In todays' job market, the qualifications for experienced professionals not necessarily have risen as much as you can't have any holes in your experience, you need to know it all, otherwise it's more cost effective to have junior people do what you normally would have done - IOW, if someone can do 75% of what you do for 75% the cost, then they are going to get the choice assignments that lead to career progress.
Jul 28, 24 7:37 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
If a junior can do 75% of what senior staff can do... then you're not really as experienced as you thing you are.
I've developed a lot of unorthodox techniques to design and speed of execution that most Jr. types can only do 66% of what I do - except the ones I teach, then they quickly catch up. Consequently, I had to drop my pay requirements and lo ball job applications. You look at he portfolios posted here on archinect.
Yet you have trouble with the 'REPLY' button. :) We all know that being able to use Archinect property is vital to career advancement. Sounds like the Jr. staff will be replacing you soon. ;)
Jul 29, 24 1:25 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Um... nope, nadda, not a real representation of what experience means. I have not yet met a junior (or even entry-level) person who could do 10% of what I can do... and I also have developed loads of techniques to get shit done in record time.
Jul 29, 24 2:07 pm ·
·
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Changing firms when you have experience?
In the past, the site has had a lot of discussion about team members change firms. These team members typically have low to mid level of experience (ten years or so max).
I'm wondering what more people experienced have encountered when looking to change firms. I'm thinking it would be a lot like getting back into dating after having been in a loooong term relationship. You know what you're doing but are kind of at a loss regarding the current process / culture.
People with 15+ years experience, any insight on this? Changing firms, not the dating. ;)
In my experience, the 15+ years making moves, are more likely in the following categories:
Those are all good reasons why an experienced person may be looking to change firms. Any insight / advice into the actual process changing firms?
Just to be clear - the persons experience wouldn't necessarily be at the same firm. Just overall years experience. I can't imagine what it would be like to leave a firm after 15 years - that would be challenging.
Practical one: it can be a bit tricky for a senior person to leave. Before you are ready, you probably don't want to arouse attention / cause unnecessary drama. When I made my move, I started wearing dress shoes and jacket, every day, for a couple of months before I started interviewing. Zero suspicion when I popped off to interviews. As senior person often gets interviewed multiple times, you'll likely need to disappear for a couple of hours during work hours many times. When / after I gave my 3-week notice, because I had been carrying myself as "polished professional" for months, I was treated as such by colleague I was leaving. Overall an positive experience.
Take your time. You interview the firms. You are selecting the next place you will devote a big chunk of your life.
I like how "Lean in" describe career path as a jungle gym: sometime, lateral moves are necessary for success. At 15 years, you are not in skill-acquisition mode of younger years. There's no longer a super clear trajectory of moving up. Maneuver towards what makes you feel fulfilled and happy, and generally success follows.
Best of luck!
Great advice!
Just to be clear - I didn't ask this question because I'm expecting to move firms.
Don't misunderstand - I always try to keep my options open and pay attention to other opportunities. I asked this question because I know very few experienced architects who have made a move like this and I have no idea what it could be like.
age discrimination can be a factor when most team members are in their 20s and 30s
The kinds of firms that would discriminate based on age, typically aren't the ones looking to hire somebody who knows their worth. Speaking as somebody with ~15 years experience, if I found out that most employees are in their twenties, that's a huge red flag.
Wait till you hit your sixties.......
I’m finding many firms want an exact fit or won’t offer a position. Younger candidates can check some of the boxes but older candidates must check all the boxes, no more and no less. At a higher salary, firms don’t want to waste time and money on you if you aren’t an exact match for what they need. Or they’ll offer a lower salary and you can work your way up again.
At 14 years experience, I check 2/3rds of the boxes for Job Captain - so instead, I'm learning the latest archi-tech from students at UC Berkeley - I'm looking for an intermediate design position and am where I can afford a 20-30% pay cut from my last position as a job captain - also fast tracking ARE tests -
Currently, I can check all the boxes for intermediate designer, but qualifications have risen for JC, and no longer qualify(no client interface and no building dept. interface)
Fast tracking ARE is essential for you. In my region of the US, 14 years with no license would lead a lot of firms to pass on interviewing you. Maybe also look at smaller firms where you could get some client and AHJ interaction.
I dunno. While not recommended, it's not a automatic pass by firms if you have other skills.
I didn't get licensed until later in my career. Graduated in 2002, licensed in 2016. I was a designer that focused on SD - DD. As such, I constantly pursued by firms that entire time to be a conceptual designer. Apparently they thought I was good at it.
I have one box that I can’t check and won’t be able to. I had another career for 10 years, some of it overlapping with architecture. I had 3 part time jobs at once too. They don’t like that. Zonkers, 14 years and still an intermediate designer doesn’t make sense. You can be a senior designer after 5-8 years. I applied for an entry level job yesterday in an adjacent field that pays almost 3 times what I made as an entry level in arch. I’m very qualified for it but I think I have 0% chance because of it. It’s tough out there. I hope your job search experience is better than mine, Chad.
I have no doubt that my experiences in this profession are unique. I started out my career as an actual designer. I'd literally be asked to layout, design, and present building concepts to clients. The clients liked my work. By my fifth year out of school the vanity wall in my office was all my work. The projects weren't huge (around 50,000sf ) but It's was very stressful. I'd often have around eight days to come up with designs.
I was a designer on day one as well. I wasn’t the only designer though. I presented to clients all the time as a very junior designer. I am very good at drawing, talking, and listening. I agree it’s stressful but was great experience. When I was young, I got every job I applied to. Now I can barely get interviews and when I do, I don’t get the job. There’s a firm that wants me but it’s over an hour away with no traffic and I hate driving. Chad, I worked with your firm on a job once a long time ago. Before you were there. I’ve been in your office. :)
Small world! May I ask if it's the firm I'm currently with or a previous one?
I'm not as experienced as you, however I do wonder about being 'aged out' of future firms. I'm 46 and have pondered how long have before I basically need to stay at the firm I'm with or move on if I want a chance to be hired elsewhere. Similar to you, the nearest other opportunities are 4-6 hours away and would require me to move.
Small world indeed. Current firm. I have 8 years of full time experience in a firm. 8 years experience as a freelancer working for other architects and 6 years as a firm owner, neither of those last two are full time and are concurrent. We are the same age.
I’ve been told to not count part-time work at all. So that drops me down to 8 years experience. Actually just 7. I can’t count.
Wilma Buttfit - If it would work for you, I know we're hiring. Shoot me a PM if you want. FYI - there are new owners and a new, relaxed culture here that promotes collaboration.
Side note: running your own firm?! Dang! I'm not that confident, experienced, or ambitious! Good on you!
Thanks! I’ll think about that. I don’t know how to start a new paragraph on my phone but starting my firm felt like my only option at the time. I don’t think it looks good to potential employers. I’m used to running the show and calling all the shots. I’m partner material, not employee. But no one is looking for a partner. I’ve had 3 partners and all 3 split off to do their own thing.
One of our partners is retiring the end of this year so . . . .
Chad, I don’t know how to message you. I don’t see it as an option through your profile.
Click the 'contact' button next to my name in my OP.
I know, it's weird.
I did that. It just gives your name and location. Oh well. I don’t think I can move anyways. Thanks.
Very weird. I get this when I click on the contact button.
I don’t see that. I’m on my phone so maybe that’s why. I can’t log in on my desktop anymore, don’t have the email I signed up with anymore.
Spent most of my career on my own from 1989 until 2016. At that time (2016) I was offered and joined a NYC firm on a per project basis. It was a blast - completed well over $100 million of construction on my first project and COVID happened.
I was furloughed initially for a few months. This dragged on and I was then told I was terminated and my insurance would be cancelled - I'm sure many went thru this.
I was called back and it was the most miserable experience of my entire career. Another $80 or $90 million worth of construction completed and I was let go - and I'm thankful. I'm back on my own doing small work for very cool clients.
Had a meeting with a 90 year old woman the other day who is set on a complete reno of here co-op
I was never made for the corporate world and I have understood this for a very long time. How I ended of there is a problem of life situations, These days I promise myself - I will never be back there. Brutal years. and they weigh heavily. Be careful what you choose..
I choose quite serenity over bullshit corporate...that's just me folks. Corporate firms can kiss my ass. You can decide for yourself.
Thanks for sharing!
May I ask what made the second time back the most miserable experience of your career?
This hits close to home. Hoping to make it out from corporate as soon as feasible. Money can't buy you time. Thanks for this post and I'm glad you found spot for yourself that you're happy with. That's what we all deserve at the end of the day.
Are You Experienced? (youtube.com)
Not like that. :(
what I’ve had to do is chop out 1/2 my experience and only apply to small offices - unfortunately it’s all 1099 stuff
I had a good transition experience recently.
I had 11 years experience at a large corporate firm. I was looking to leave architecture field completely to pursue interior design. I “opened” my Linked-In to recruiters. I spoke to all who reached out to see what opportunities they had. Most fell off when they learned I wasn’t interested in an architecture firm.
About 6 months go by and a recruiter brings a role my way, an interior design role at an architecture firm. I don’t want to reveal the firm but they are very well known in the industry. I immediately hesitated but recruiter convinced me to just go have a chat with them.
It turned out to be a very good opportunity and fit for me. I took the role, a promotion, and a 65% pay increase. I hired my own team within 3 months. My hours reduced and I have a “seat at the table”.
Don’t sleep on recruiters, be open to change, and don’t give up on yourself.
Recruiters - make sure they actually have relationships with firms, and will listen to you and find the right match. For experienced people some firms tend to rely on trusted recruiters before they post job openings. They want to maintain relationships with firms and find the right people because it’s beneficial to everyone. The recruiters to avoid are the ones that will send your resume to the same job postings you find online.
I'm having to take time off to woodshed/upskill and take ARE tests - 2 months and only phone interviews -
'
Older architects (like me) tend to undervalue their experience next to the speed and technical knowledge of younger cohorts. This is a mistake. The things that make a good building never go out of style and the ability to wield one's experience to that end is your reward to sticking to this wonderful profession. Good luck and lean in to your wisdom!
I’ve purposely kept up with the speed and technology of the younger architects- I have to, or I’m relegated to mundane repetitive tasks in hopes I will quit
I have 12 years. Not quite 15. But having graduated during the tail
Woops accidently pressed post. Meant to say graduating at the tail end of the 08 recession, switching jobs every few years for better opportunities and career growth, then the COVID furloughs and layoffs... I feel like I've been around. Not saying I'm the most experienced but I feel like I've seen shit. I've never jumped firms willy nilly but IMO it's important to keep an eye on how you're feeling. I was doing a lot of pm work and not making enough at a hcol area at my last job. Learned a lot and moved to an engineering firm w a growing architecture division. Working on a huge design build project that has been extremely challenging but I'm learning lots. It's important to keep your edges sharp no matter where you're at, early career or 20 plus years in.
I completely agree.
I've worked with people fresh out of UC Berkeley and CCA in San Francisco, they are sharp and easily move into positions that require 5 years or more experience. They know AI, GH, Rhino and Revit, they are pushing out many overpaid experienced but did not stay sharp job captains that "retired on active duty" so to speak
Knowing certain programs is nice. It's not a measure of experience though. A mentor of mine once said 'I don't care if you know a program. We can teach you that. We hired you to do good design. That's something you can't be taught'.
When I hire senior people, software isn't even a consideration. Not even for the technical staff.
In todays' job market, the qualifications for experienced professionals not necessarily have risen as much as you can't have any holes in your experience, you need to know it all, otherwise it's more cost effective to have junior people do what you normally would have done - IOW, if someone can do 75% of what you do for 75% the cost, then they are going to get the choice assignments that lead to career progress.
If a junior can do 75% of what senior staff can do... then you're not really as experienced as you thing you are.
Junior staff can do maybe 20% of what I can do. It will take them 4x as long and be only 50% applicable to the project but it's a learning process.
I've developed a lot of unorthodox techniques to design and speed of execution that most Jr. types can only do 66% of what I do - except the ones I teach, then they quickly catch up. Consequently, I had to drop my pay requirements and lo ball job applications. You look at he portfolios posted here on archinect.
Yet you have trouble with the 'REPLY' button. :) We all know that being able to use Archinect property is vital to career advancement. Sounds like the Jr. staff will be replacing you soon. ;)
Um... nope, nadda, not a real representation of what experience means. I have not yet met a junior (or even entry-level) person who could do 10% of what I can do... and I also have developed loads of techniques to get shit done in record time.
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