My employer (a multifamily developer) fired the director of design and now there is no one to stamp permit drawings. The boss is adamant about submitting for permit asap (as for any projects in the firm to the extent that it would miss out lots of info and details, their reason is that get it in the door then we'll come back to address the comments later). Having said that, in a team meeting, the stamp issue was brought up and he asked (basically told) me to stamp the project I am working on for permit (2 big 100 units apartments). He sent me a "hold harmless" form used with the past director (not the recently fired director) and told me that would be good and that they will never sue me for anything in the future. No other professional insurance or coverage mentioned. I am mid level in experience so I would really hesitate to do this, never came across my mind, never on the job description (just started for 4 months). With the director gone, I am pulled to the front and have to directly deal with the boss and all the politics in the leadership team. I took this job because I am a capable PA and it is remote position. After working here, I learn the cheapness culture and the "wheel and deal" attitude toward not just consultants (multiple consultants got screwed and quit mid projects) but also internally.
I think my option would be to tell the boss that I won't sign anything and it is not my job (diplomatically way), also I have been asking for an adjustment of my salary in the beginning (20% underpaid for my experience) but last week he came to meet in a middle (my guess is that he anticipate asking me to stamp drawings). The second option is to detach myself from the firm and work 1099 as a contractor (boss was not interested in giving me a lot more than my salary now, maybe 7.5% more instead of 30% with all the 1099 tax ramification etc).
No professional liability insurance from the company. The fired director did not have any company insurance provided for him either. He got his own professional insurance anyway because he have his own practice.
Going 1099 would put you in business as an independent architect with the developer as your client. You will need to buy insurance, set up an LLC etc. If you go 1099, price that into your deal.
The hold harmless needs review by a lawyer that works for you. Our insurance and legal advisors have always steered us more towards a mutually agreed upon limitation of liability with the client. Rare is the client that will really give anybody a hold harmless.
Every town has a cohort of one-person and tiny firms that will stamp this developer's stuff for cheap. Maybe connect the boss with some of those for him to pick from. That may be better for everyone because this developer sounds like they would be shitty client for you to have.
Hi, i would like to know how I can find this cohort in town of one person or tiny firms that provide stamping services. I'm really interested in finding this type of services because I'm a architect freelancer with no license.
So-called stamping services are illegal in most states. So don't go looking for someone to do it. Get licensed yourself, or actually *hire* an architect to actually design and produce the instruments of service aka drawings.
Vfj1108, if you are in the U.S., you have no business having anything to do with the designing a building that requires a stamp, unless you work for an architect as a subordinate employee. Only a licensed architect may engage in the practice of architecture. No state allows an architect to merely review plans already prepared and stamp them if the plans were prepared by a non-licensed person. All states requires architects to exercise control and supervision of throughout its preparation from initial consultation with the client to completed project. Lastly, unless licensed in the State where the project located, you are not an architect there nor may you refer to yourself as one. It is the law. Period.
"Architect freelancer" = I charge maybe $50/hr and screw legitimate architects out of work, and expect them to fix my problems when they inevitably arise.
You *ONLY* stamp a drawing if you are a corporate partner. The corporation setup gives you some protection, in some states, from any personal liability from stamping the drawings. Personal vs. corporate liability varies by state, so get yourself a lawyer who is knowledgeable about your state's laws around professional corporations.
Whether you are an AIA member or not I'd suggest calling the local AIA to ask for a lawyer recommendation; lawyers are often AIA sponsors who are hoping to get business.
TLDR don't stamp unless your are a full partner in the firm.
A minor correction, stamping drawings will expose you to professional liability. As an employee, you face that regardless of any scenario if you stamp the drawings. As an employee, you will not have personal liability for contractual matters and like matters. The firm would be. Corporate entities provide the owners of the firm with some limited liability protection. Limited liability protection does not cover professional liability. The reason you should not stamp drawings is because as a regular ol' employee, you are likely not paid well enough for the long-term professional liability. Firm owners tend to get paid more than regular employees so the advice is not to stamp drawings without an ownership stake and increase in pay by a significant amount.
Donna's TLDR short version response is reasonable advice. You should not stamp drawings at the firm unless you are a full partner of the firm.
It seems that everyone that has responded is correct! DO NOT STAMP THE PLANS!
I am an architect that provides expert opinions pertaining to construction defects. I have been involved with quite a few cases in local and Federal court dealing with such things as this. Remember, whatever you place your stamp on, you own it and YOU become the professional responsible for the project, and all the bad things that comes the project's way. Also, your liability does not stop once the project is finished; each state has a statute of limitations that begins to run once the project reaches substantial completion. The limitations can be for years, meaning that anything that goes wrong during this period of time, you can be invited into a legal situation. Latent and Patent defects.
Secondly, you worked too hard to lose your license so some individual can make a fast dollar off of you! Some hold harmless documents are not the worth of the paper they are written on, so yes, do not sign anything without your attorney reviewing it! It has been proven in case law, that a professional cannot transfer their liability for the work that they performed.
This is 40 years of experience talking!
Remember this if nothing else. There are people out there in the world who will say anything and promise the world to get a person to do something that they can make money off of! Believe me, if you were to stamp the drawings and something went wrong, he will not KNOW YOU!
Sounds like a lot of opinion here point to the same thing. I was pretty sure that I won't sign it, but this is my first experience that someone came asking me to.
A letter of holding one “harmless” is almost pointless when professional liability trumps over it. Even if this employer holds me harmless what about everyone else connected to the buildings current and in the future.
I do not trust the employer especially with the way they operate in short period of time I'm working here.
Yeah, agree with the many statements here. And I worked for a developer for a short period as a PM...and would not go along with signing drawings. As a note and to further some of the comments, multifamily buildings are extremely litigious projects. If it's for a condo, basically the first thing that happens after a condo board forms is that everyone gets sued. so that is a big issue, no matter what is stated by the developer upfront. In general, my attitude has been that this is why a contract (ideally AIA) between owner and architect is paramount as the start to any relationship there...and it needs to be acceptable as not horribly manipulated away from AIA precedent (trust me, I've seen some hatchet jobs by developer's attorneys that are completely unsignable and gross in terms of the liabilities heaped onto the architect).
I think the bigger question here is why you are even considering keeping any kind of relationship with what this company. Is it possible the fired design director saw problems in what he was being asked to stamp?
just leave. you will save yourself years of stress and frustration.
I agree it is a terrible place once I learn more working here. It was supposed to be a small design department (just started) in a development firm with construction staff. But the boss has not learned to trust his director to build it from scratch.
No standards to follow. Staff turnover is high (4 left since I started 4 months, in a 6 people department!) I always thought it will be a train wreck coming but this pressure to stamp drawings put this on to another level of recklessness and shortsightedness.
Aug 10, 23 11:47 am ·
·
reallynotmyname
In my community, I've observed that most developer in-house design departments turn to shit quickly and die out in 3 years or less. You should start looking for a new job.
And I say the above because I worked for one. Usually the developer will eventually get caught in market downturn and run out of work for the design department. It's also common that the developer will come to realize that they can hire cheapie outside architects who will do design work for less money than an in-house crew.
Aug 10, 23 3:10 pm ·
·
midlander
yeah, i'd wonder what the strategy of having in-house design services is - in this case it sounds like probably a misguided idea that it would be cheaper. architect-led development can be an exciting business, but this obviously requires the design team to be leading projects not merely executing. if there is no partnership between the design and development teams at the leadership level, this cannot succeed.
I have served as the AOR for an employer before, however I had a separate contract with the client and set my own terms and fee, and thw projects were small, low risk renovations.
It sounds like your employee is trying to take advantage of you to make their lives easier. There is no way I would ever agree to this, even for a 100% pay raise, forget 20%. I eventually cut ties with the employer I was AOR for, as she was making decisions and promises to clients without my knowledge and I was almost sued twice. The clients had no issue with me, thwy wanted to sue my boss, but legally it would fall to me.
If I were you I would document all of this and explictly tell your employer no. If there are any negative repurcussion, then you st least have a case for wrongful termination, if it comes to that. If you happen to have a copy of any emoloyment agreement you signed when you started, I would also re-read it to see if there is any pertinant info included. If it says nothing about stamping drawings (i’d be surprised if it did), you can say this was not part of the job description or agreement that you signed.
Aug 18, 23 10:07 am ·
·
midlifecrisis
Ugh, so many typos! Can’t figure out how to edit the post from my phone.
Aug 18, 23 10:10 am ·
·
Richard Balkins's comment has been hidden
View comment
"I have served as the AOR for an employer before. However, I had a separate contract with the client and set my own terms and fee, and the projects were small, low-risk renovations.
It sounds like your employer is trying to take advantage of you to make their lives easier. There is no way I would ever agree to this, even for a 100% pay raise, forget 20%. I eventually cut ties with the employer I was AOR for, as she was making decisions and promises to clients without my knowledge and I was almost sued twice. The clients had no issue with me, they wanted to sue my boss, but legally it would fall to me.
If I were you I would document all of this and explicitly tell your employer no. If there are any negative repercussions, then you at least have a case for wrongful termination, if it comes to that. If you happen to have a copy of any employment agreement you signed when you started, I would also re-read it to see if there is any pertinent info included. If it says nothing about stamping drawings (I’d be surprised if it did), you can say this was not part of the job description or agreement that you signed."
Corrected the obvious typos for ya. I agree with you.
It was a small “design” office. The owner studied architecture, but wasn’t licensed, so the work was mostly interiors when I started.
One project, the client was a bit crazy and wanted us to do something illegal and got mad when we could not deliver his “dream home.” Not fully my employer’s fault, but I got a little pressure to try to do something not to code that I was not comfortable with.
Another project was meant to be a 3 season bungalow, and my employer, without my knowledge, told the client it was okay to use one space as a bedroom (not allowed) and install an HVAC system. It was a small town and the building department guy happened to be driving by while the install happened and called me up and was screaming about how I tricked him, etc. In reality, I was just as surprised as he was! The client was pissed and threatened to sue. We ended up having to re-file the job at no cost, and lost a ton of money.
There was also the time my employer told a client that we could add an illegal AirBNB suite into their house reno, and was annoyed when I refused to do that, and that’s when I decided to cut ties.
Aug 18, 23 1:11 pm ·
·
Jay1122
I think the breach of contract law suit is against the Firm. I could see the AOR being brought into the lawsuit together as a threat. Not sure if the AOR has the liability since the contract is between the client and the design firm. The tort is the one that goes against AOR stamping the drawing. Negligence causes damage to 3rd party. Anyway, I am no expert. Who knows. OP is doing 100 unit apartment buildings. That is way worse than the single family renovation. Imagine some non code compliant railing design kills someone. Oopsies.
Correct, do not stamp unless you are the architect of record in charge of producing documents, hired and paid by the client for professional services. If your boss persists you should resign but also report the boss to state licensing board for his past practice and current pressure on you. This is not an uncommon demand by those who are not licensed for they do not face a penalty for the licenced professional's misbehavior.
At least one world-famous architect had his managing partner, a licensed architect, stamp drawings but then in turn this partner directed staff members to simulate his signature over the stamp. The practice was halted after the partner was warned he would be reported for doing this.
Don't be disuaded from doing the right and legal thing by intimidation.
Aug 19, 23 10:26 am ·
·
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Employer asked me to stamp drawings
My employer (a multifamily developer) fired the director of design and now there is no one to stamp permit drawings. The boss is adamant about submitting for permit asap (as for any projects in the firm to the extent that it would miss out lots of info and details, their reason is that get it in the door then we'll come back to address the comments later). Having said that, in a team meeting, the stamp issue was brought up and he asked (basically told) me to stamp the project I am working on for permit (2 big 100 units apartments). He sent me a "hold harmless" form used with the past director (not the recently fired director) and told me that would be good and that they will never sue me for anything in the future. No other professional insurance or coverage mentioned. I am mid level in experience so I would really hesitate to do this, never came across my mind, never on the job description (just started for 4 months). With the director gone, I am pulled to the front and have to directly deal with the boss and all the politics in the leadership team. I took this job because I am a capable PA and it is remote position. After working here, I learn the cheapness culture and the "wheel and deal" attitude toward not just consultants (multiple consultants got screwed and quit mid projects) but also internally.
I think my option would be to tell the boss that I won't sign anything and it is not my job (diplomatically way), also I have been asking for an adjustment of my salary in the beginning (20% underpaid for my experience) but last week he came to meet in a middle (my guess is that he anticipate asking me to stamp drawings). The second option is to detach myself from the firm and work 1099 as a contractor (boss was not interested in giving me a lot more than my salary now, maybe 7.5% more instead of 30% with all the 1099 tax ramification etc).
Big no. The second option sounds good to me.
No equity in office, no stampy.
Refuse to stamp unless given equity/full coverage under company insurance. Prepare to be fired.
No professional liability insurance from the company. The fired director did not have any company insurance provided for him either. He got his own professional insurance anyway because he have his own practice.
Going 1099 would put you in business as an independent architect with the developer as your client. You will need to buy insurance, set up an LLC etc. If you go 1099, price that into your deal.
The hold harmless needs review by a lawyer that works for you. Our insurance and legal advisors have always steered us more towards a mutually agreed upon limitation of liability with the client. Rare is the client that will really give anybody a hold harmless.
Every town has a cohort of one-person and tiny firms that will stamp this developer's stuff for cheap. Maybe connect the boss with some of those for him to pick from. That may be better for everyone because this developer sounds like they would be shitty client for you to have.
Hi, i would like to know how I can find this cohort in town of one person or tiny firms that provide stamping services. I'm really interested in finding this type of services because I'm a architect freelancer with no license.
Thanks you!
So-called stamping services are illegal in most states. So don't go looking for someone to do it. Get licensed yourself, or actually *hire* an architect to actually design and produce the instruments of service aka drawings.
vfj, you're not an architect then.
Vfj1108, if you are in the U.S., you have no business having anything to do with the designing a building that requires a stamp, unless you work for an architect as a subordinate employee. Only a licensed architect may engage in the practice of architecture. No state allows an architect to merely review plans already prepared and stamp them if the plans were prepared by a non-licensed person. All states requires architects to exercise control and supervision of throughout its preparation from initial consultation with the client to completed project. Lastly, unless licensed in the State where the project located, you are not an architect there nor may you refer to yourself as one. It is the law. Period.
What if Vfj1108 is OPs boss? Plot twist.
"Architect freelancer" = I charge maybe $50/hr and screw legitimate architects out of work, and expect them to fix my problems when they inevitably arise.
Yeah, that’s a hell no.
No chance. What Flatroof said.
You *ONLY* stamp a drawing if you are a corporate partner. The corporation setup gives you some protection, in some states, from any personal liability from stamping the drawings. Personal vs. corporate liability varies by state, so get yourself a lawyer who is knowledgeable about your state's laws around professional corporations.
Whether you are an AIA member or not I'd suggest calling the local AIA to ask for a lawyer recommendation; lawyers are often AIA sponsors who are hoping to get business.
TLDR don't stamp unless your are a full partner in the firm.
A minor correction, stamping drawings will expose you to professional liability. As an employee, you face that regardless of any scenario if you stamp the drawings. As an employee, you will not have personal liability for contractual matters and like matters. The firm would be. Corporate entities provide the owners of the firm with some limited liability protection. Limited liability protection does not cover professional liability. The reason you should not stamp drawings is because as a regular ol' employee, you are likely not paid well enough for the long-term professional liability. Firm owners tend to get paid more than regular employees so the advice is not to stamp drawings without an ownership stake and increase in pay by a significant amount.
Donna's TLDR short version response is reasonable advice. You should not stamp drawings at the firm unless you are a full partner of the firm.
Nope. I you're working in a firm unless you're stamping the drawings you're not liable, even if you're an an architect working on the project.
(is this a sort of bay signal?)
“bat signal” (stupid autocorrect)
It seems that everyone that has responded is correct! DO NOT STAMP THE PLANS!
I am an architect that provides expert opinions pertaining to construction defects. I have been involved with quite a few cases in local and Federal court dealing with such things as this. Remember, whatever you place your stamp on, you own it and YOU become the professional responsible for the project, and all the bad things that comes the project's way. Also, your liability does not stop once the project is finished; each state has a statute of limitations that begins to run once the project reaches substantial completion. The limitations can be for years, meaning that anything that goes wrong during this period of time, you can be invited into a legal situation. Latent and Patent defects.
Secondly, you worked too hard to lose your license so some individual can make a fast dollar off of you! Some hold harmless documents are not the worth of the paper they are written on, so yes, do not sign anything without your attorney reviewing it! It has been proven in case law, that a professional cannot transfer their liability for the work that they performed.
This is 40 years of experience talking!
Remember this if nothing else. There are people out there in the world who will say anything and promise the world to get a person to do something that they can make money off of! Believe me, if you were to stamp the drawings and something went wrong, he will not KNOW YOU!
Sounds like a lot of opinion here point to the same thing. I was pretty sure that I won't sign it, but this is my first experience that someone came asking me to. A letter of holding one “harmless” is almost pointless when professional liability trumps over it. Even if this employer holds me harmless what about everyone else connected to the buildings current and in the future. I do not trust the employer especially with the way they operate in short period of time I'm working here.
Yeah, agree with the many statements here. And I worked for a developer for a short period as a PM...and would not go along with signing drawings. As a note and to further some of the comments, multifamily buildings are extremely litigious projects. If it's for a condo, basically the first thing that happens after a condo board forms is that everyone gets sued. so that is a big issue, no matter what is stated by the developer upfront. In general, my attitude has been that this is why a contract (ideally AIA) between owner and architect is paramount as the start to any relationship there...and it needs to be acceptable as not horribly manipulated away from AIA precedent (trust me, I've seen some hatchet jobs by developer's attorneys that are completely unsignable and gross in terms of the liabilities heaped onto the architect).
I think the bigger question here is why you are even considering keeping any kind of relationship with what this company. Is it possible the fired design director saw problems in what he was being asked to stamp?
just leave. you will save yourself years of stress and frustration.
I agree it is a terrible place once I learn more working here. It was supposed to be a small design department (just started) in a development firm with construction staff. But the boss has not learned to trust his director to build it from scratch. No standards to follow. Staff turnover is high (4 left since I started 4 months, in a 6 people department!) I always thought it will be a train wreck coming but this pressure to stamp drawings put this on to another level of recklessness and shortsightedness.
In my community, I've observed that most developer in-house design departments turn to shit quickly and die out in 3 years or less. You should start looking for a new job.
And I say the above because I worked for one. Usually the developer will eventually get caught in market downturn and run out of work for the design department. It's also common that the developer will come to realize that they can hire cheapie outside architects who will do design work for less money than an in-house crew.
yeah, i'd wonder what the strategy of having in-house design services is - in this case it sounds like probably a misguided idea that it would be cheaper. architect-led development can be an exciting business, but this obviously requires the design team to be leading projects not merely executing. if there is no partnership between the design and development teams at the leadership level, this cannot succeed.
NO NO NO NO NO NO.
Give em the ol mushroom stamp.
My employer asked for a reach around....
I have served as the AOR for an employer before, however I had a separate contract with the client and set my own terms and fee, and thw projects were small, low risk renovations.
It sounds like your employee is trying to take advantage of you to make their lives easier. There is no way I would ever agree to this, even for a 100% pay raise, forget 20%. I eventually cut ties with the employer I was AOR for, as she was making decisions and promises to clients without my knowledge and I was almost sued twice. The clients had no issue with me, thwy wanted to sue my boss, but legally it would fall to me.
If I were you I would document all of this and explictly tell your employer no. If there are any negative repurcussion, then you st least have a case for wrongful termination, if it comes to that. If you happen to have a copy of any emoloyment agreement you signed when you started, I would also re-read it to see if there is any pertinant info included. If it says nothing about stamping drawings (i’d be surprised if it did), you can say this was not part of the job description or agreement that you signed.
Ugh, so many typos! Can’t figure out how to edit the post from my phone.
"I have served as the AOR for an employer before. However, I had a separate contract with the client and set my own terms and fee, and the projects were small, low-risk renovations.
It sounds like your employer is trying to take advantage of you to make their lives easier. There is no way I would ever agree to this, even for a 100% pay raise, forget 20%. I eventually cut ties with the employer I was AOR for, as she was making decisions and promises to clients without my knowledge and I was almost sued twice. The clients had no issue with me, they wanted to sue my boss, but legally it would fall to me.
If I were you I would document all of this and explicitly tell your employer no. If there are any negative repercussions, then you at least have a case for wrongful termination, if it comes to that. If you happen to have a copy of any employment agreement you signed when you started, I would also re-read it to see if there is any pertinent info included. If it says nothing about stamping drawings (I’d be surprised if it did), you can say this was not part of the job description or agreement that you signed."
Corrected the obvious typos for ya. I agree with you.
Ok, I'm sorry but correcting someone else's typos is just weird.
@midlifecrisis: was your employer an architecture firm? what was the issues that the client tried to sue, is it fee related or design related?
It was a small “design” office. The owner studied architecture, but wasn’t licensed, so the work was mostly interiors when I started.
One project, the client was a bit crazy and wanted us to do something illegal and got mad when we could not deliver his “dream home.” Not fully my employer’s fault, but I got a little pressure to try to do something not to code that I was not comfortable with.
Another project was meant to be a 3 season bungalow, and my employer, without my knowledge, told the client it was okay to use one space as a bedroom (not allowed) and install an HVAC system. It was a small town and the building department guy happened to be driving by while the install happened and called me up and was screaming about how I tricked him, etc. In reality, I was just as surprised as he was! The client was pissed and threatened to sue. We ended up having to re-file the job at no cost, and lost a ton of money.
There was also the time my employer told a client that we could add an illegal AirBNB suite into their house reno, and was annoyed when I refused to do that, and that’s when I decided to cut ties.
I think the breach of contract law suit is against the Firm. I could see the AOR being brought into the lawsuit together as a threat. Not sure if the AOR has the liability since the contract is between the client and the design firm. The tort is the one that goes against AOR stamping the drawing. Negligence causes damage to 3rd party. Anyway, I am no expert. Who knows. OP is doing 100 unit apartment buildings. That is way worse than the single family renovation. Imagine some non code compliant railing design kills someone. Oopsies.
Correct, do not stamp unless you are the architect of record in charge of producing documents, hired and paid by the client for professional services. If your boss persists you should resign but also report the boss to state licensing board for his past practice and current pressure on you. This is not an uncommon demand by those who are not licensed for they do not face a penalty for the licenced professional's misbehavior.
At least one world-famous architect had his managing partner, a licensed architect, stamp drawings but then in turn this partner directed staff members to simulate his signature over the stamp. The practice was halted after the partner was warned he would be reported for doing this.
Don't be disuaded from doing the right and legal thing by intimidation.
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