This is going to be as anonymous as possible. I am a recent masters graduate working at an unnamed firm somewhere in Colorado. I have been employed for two years at my current office.
Without getting into too much detail, the office basically doesn’t function, and I think it’s time to leave - though it’s not that simple.
This was a large and vastly popular practice before 2008, but contracted severely during the recession, and has remained at that size. There are no benefits, no bonuses, and pretty much everyone (aside from the principals) is a 1099 (including myself) making below average wages. They refuse to hire any actual actual employees, the mindset being that the economy could collapse at any second. They operate by obsessing over the operating ratio and focussing only on cashflow one month at a time. It has destroyed our ability to efficiently respond to client needs.
I think I’ve maybe experienced one meeting in two years. We never meet to discuss goals or expectations. Employees/contractors are expected to understand without communication; communication is seen as costly and time consuming. Both principals operate in isolation from each other on the same projects. The results are embarrassing for the firm.
There are frequent outbursts from principals, yelling at employees, expecting weekend overtime, and intrusive calls and e-mails through the night and on weekends. Ignoring these things gets you in hot water. They haven’t fired anyone because of how busy they are.
I have been planning on leaving since November. I have some exciting prospects to focus on. However, I have become so entangled with the management of our clients/projects and drawing production that my leaving the office would cause workflow to stop. They don’t know I’m planning on a change, but have warned me (and others) against leaving, knowing how disrupted the office would become.
What are some suggestions for respectively leaving a toxic office? I feel very trapped, the only way out seems like a burned bridge.
Their problems, and fuck if I worked there I would have been charged with assault already, are theirs not yours. You seem to have a version of Stockholm Syndrome. If you think by giving a standard two weeks is going to have a deleterious affect on your career, burn that bridge, today. Or, set fire to the office and save your coworkers.
I’ve been told that many younger employees who came before have blown up and stormed out of the office. Trying to avoid that myself, but it’s getting more insane every week.
only will add - if other architects in the area know anything about the firm, they won't hold it against you for leaving. they'll probably know how bad an environment it is.
I’d go talk to the partner you get along best with and just tell them you are leaving. Be direct about your reasons - don’t worry about stepping on toes. That time has past. Give them a shot to propose some alternative, but don’t offer one. It’s not your problem, esp as a 1099.
Do not give 2 weeks notice.
Go invest in yourself and your exciting prospects. [In parallel, you may reach out to a client or two who may want to avoid the shit show by staying with you…]
I second all the above except for the part about not giving 2 weeks notice. You need to stay professional and classy, even when the bosses are not. Real asshole bosses will often just tell you to leave immediately the day you give notice, which probably wouldn't be a bad thing. Do be packed up and ready to walk out of the building forever when you give them the news. If you have any vacation days due, maybe use them to cut down on the amount of the two weeks you may have to spend in the office.
Thank you…I should also add that the principal has not approved any of my hundreds and hundreds of AXP hours in the two years I’ve been there…I noticed this a few weeks ago, so it’s on me for not checking sooner. It’s not clear why this is the case. He may not be getting the emails from NCARB.
Jan 15, 23 10:27 pm ·
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JonathanLivingston
YOU REALLY NEED TO GET THAT SORTED OUT BEFORE YOU LEAVE OR GIVE NOTICE. LIKE SIT WITH THEM AT THE COMPUTER AND MAKE IT HAPPEN
GO DO IT TOMORROW! bring them a cup of coffee and ask them to figure it out with you get anything you can approve now. the time limit (I think 8 months) applies for full credit. anything past that you can at least get half credit. SERIOUSLY I WANT TO HEAR TOMORROW THAT YOU GIT THEM TO APPROVE SOME HOURS
What you describe is a hopelessly broken operation. You need to leave immediately. What happens after you leave is not your responsibility. Burning a bridge with toxic bosses isn't really a bad thing.
Thank you all for the comments. I should add that my principal has not approved a single AXP hour…I just realized this in the past few weeks. It’s not clear why; he may not be receiving NCARB notifications for all I know. That is something I definitely need to salvage if possible.
Jan 15, 23 10:29 pm ·
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reallynotmyname
I hope that it's just a matter of missed emails. You need to get those hours approved ASAP. I'm concerned you may lose out under NCARB's 8 month reporting requirement. Contact NCARB and plead for mercy if you have to. Know that the boss can easily rob you of the hours if they decide they want to by claiming you did subpar work and checking the "disapprove" box. For that reason, get the AXP approved before you give notice.
Yes. As of now I hadn’t thought about through the lens of AIA violations.
Jan 15, 23 11:16 pm ·
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JonathanLivingston
NOT approving the hours you submitted like that is a violation. People have been reprimanded in the past for this. It is a direct and very clear violation of AIA Cannon V rule 5.201 to withhold approval like that.
You are an independent contractor - none of the standard protocols of employer/employee apply. You can simply stop whatever it is you are doing at any time. You should have been dictating how and when you work the entire time. They are paying you as an independent contractor and treating you as an employee.
Agree with most on here. The way I put it is if you're a fulltime employee somewhere they will never give you the luxury of giving you a two weeks heads up you are getting fired but for some reason that is the norm for us as employees? If you are 1099, secure a better job and get the hell out of dodge. Talk to a principal you are close to and let them know you are leaving and that's it. It is their problem if everything comes to a grinding halt when you leave because their staffing seems to be a massive problem.
I agree. Both principals are seriously in a different reality. This morning has been bad so far. Already there has been a re-hashing of client meeting last Friday, which went poorly due to a lack of communication beforehand. Let’s just say I’m not the only one who’s been called “mysteriously incompetent”. I’ll wait for the dust to settle, then I’ll likely resign. I’ve been wanting to talk to NCARB today about my unapproved hours (nearly 1000) but I don’t know if there’s much they can do.
so, you need to make sure you have documentation (or that NCARB has documentation) on when you've submitted reports for them to sign off on. there are repercussions if they just refuse to out of spite. and i think it's important because you're establishing you've been consistently sending the reports in a timely manner, vs. forgetting to and gathering all the info together in one go (what NCARB's rule was intended to help prevent). you should be able to file an appeal to NCARB if it comes to that. AND.... this is why you should have an IDP mentor, who is separate from your supervisor. hopefully you do. if not, find one. now. they are also your advocates to NCARB in a situation like this.
a new thought I had was this, and maybe it’s far too lenient:
I could agree to complete the SD/DD phase of my current project ONLY if they agree to approve the AXP hours. This would allow me to ensure some income stability until the new job starts. But, it would mean that I continue to put up with the insanity and chaos of the office. It also sets up the possibility that they could reject the proposal and decide that it’s better if I’m gone.
Jan 16, 23 1:10 pm ·
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reallynotmyname
It's fundamentally wrong that your rightfully earned AXP credits should be held hostage in exchange for performing exit-related tasks.
I wouldn't tie it to the hours. The hours and your departure are separate issues. I would get harassingly insistent about those hours (escalate to the point of multiple daily reminders), secure as many of them as I could, then tell them I'm leaving. If you want the income then you can tell them your timeline and frame it as helping "wrap things up." Timeline is better than milestone because milestones have a way of moving. But it's fine to just quit outright. Be tactful but firm. You won't regret it a month from now.
If you do what you propose (which could well be the path of least resistance), make sure you have a written contract. This shouldn't be a problem for the bosses since they have you classified as a 1099 contractor, who, by definition, should be working under a contract. Approval of all AXP to date should be the first thing that happens under the agreement. Then you do the SD/DD work with the bosses incrementally approving your AXP hours for the SD/DD regularly, like on each payday.
How can you get AXP hours as a 1099? I was under the impression that you had to be an “employee”. A 1099 contractor is technically not “under the direct supervision” of the employer per IRS classifications.
Jan 16, 23 3:04 pm ·
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x-jla
Furthermore, how can an architectural firm hire 1099 employees whom aren’t licensed? As a contractor, I can only subcontract/1099 others who are independently licensed. I can 1099 someone to do work that doesn’t require a license. I can’t subcontract someone to do work that does require a license, even though I have a license, because I can’t technically have direct control over unless they are an employee.
It's different for professional licensure situations. In an architectural firm if you're not licensed then all of your work is under direct supervision of an architect.
Same thing with say a traveling nurse or doctor. Both are considered 1099 contractors but both are under the direct supervision of another licensed medical professional.
I don't think they would need to do that though. Anything the OP did at the firm would need to be under direct supervision of an architect. It's required by law. If the employer would say otherwise I'd think they'd get in big trouble with the state's licensing board.
This happened to a architect in a city I used to live in. This architect was a petty jerk and hired everyone as a 1099. He tried to not sign off on AXP hours for an employee who was leaving. The state regulatory board, NCARB, and AIA slapped him with a bunch of fines and he nearly lost his license.
Doesn't matter. You can be a 1099 and still work under supervision of someone if a regulatory board requires it. AKA - the final work requires a licensed professional to sign off on it. It's a grey area. In this type of situation a business is incorrectly classifying someone as a 1099. Hence why they get in trouble.
You're confusing two things. Independent Contractor doesn't mean that your employer doesn't have a supervisorly role in your work effort. How could you be independent in that way, it's not your client, and the labor is still provided on behalf of the firm owner. Independent means that all of responsibility for paying taxes and social security is yours to bear.
I’m construction we have the option for employees or subcontractors. Sure, many contractors illegally hire independent contractors and treat them as employees, but it’s not legal. If it were, life would be a lot easier and more profitable for most contractors. I’m pretty sure the laws are consistent across professions, but probably more heavily enforced in construction because of workman’s comp, dangerous nature of the work, etc.
Jan 16, 23 8:35 pm ·
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b3tadine[sutures]
You're completely misconstruing what that link states.
Sorry x-jla - you are incorrect about this. It's easy to do with the wording of things. If you speak to an accountant and or a lawyer you'll see that a 1099 employee can be under the direct supervision of someone.
Jan 17, 23 1:35 pm ·
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x-jla
Chad, I’d be happy to be proven wrong on this, as it would make my life much easier, but I’m pretty sure that I’m not. The term 1099 employee is misleading. A 1099 is a independent contractor providing a particular service for the company. An architectural firm may choose to hire a freelance web designer or rendering company for instance. Anyone who is paid over 600$ to provide a service must be issued a 1099. If a company has 1099 workers, whom they treat as employees (see the outline below), and that is discovered upon an employee audit by the irs, that company could face significant fines. Uber recently had to pay (not sure if they got out of it) 100mil for this type of violation. Independent contractor and subcontractor is synonymous. Independent contractors are hired to provide a particular service that they don’t need supervision for. They do it on their own timeline. They can do it for one or many companies. They don’t have their name on company cards, wear company logos, etc.
X-jla - I'd recommend you speak to your accountant and or lawyer on this.
You're talking about 1099's in a non professional service job and if you can be a 1099 and still be under direct supervision of someone else in a professional job that requires licensure.
The two are very different and have different tax rules that can vary by state.
Jan 17, 23 2:08 pm ·
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x-jla
I’m not sure if ncarb cares or not. They may not care. The irs and Department or labor definitely draws clear lines however. To me it sounds like this firm is operating illegally.
I have and I did. I'm not going to debate this with you x-jla.
You need to contact your accountant and lawyer. Have them explain the difference between contract employees, independent contractors, and how you can be classified as a 1099 for either.
This firm isn't just toxic, misclassification as a 1099 employee when you're obviously not is illegal and extremely shady. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/w...
You absolutely don't deserve to be treated the way you've described. You absolutely don't owe them anything including a single second more of your time. There's never going to be a "good" way out of a toxic relationship. Cut off all contact with them and don't go back. I mean tomorrow. Run, don't walk.
update as of tonight: This is my last week, and I am extremely relieved - though there will be a little financial pressure before the new job starts. Today’s achievement is that I’ve been able to get the AXP hours approved. There was actually no malice - just incompetence and disorganization as I had assumed. Still leaving as soon as I can.
Per the 1099 comments: This has become extremely common in architecture, according to other friends/peers of mine. Often times it occurs with very skittish/paranoid managers who were burned badly in ‘08 and have anxiety about taking a chance with a full hire. Of course, it’s unethical, and will only damage their business.
"my leaving the office would cause workflow to stop" - you should never worry about that. I agree with everyone here, you need to get out ASAP, and since you are 1099, 2-weeks notice is not even needed. My principal in previous job had some toxic elements too, but it wasn't as bad as yours, and since I was a full time employee with health insurance and small package of benefits, I just handed her two weeks and politely rejected the efforts to keep me in. EDIT: just saw that you're actually leaving the firm in a week, good job.
IF they were laying you off, they wouldn't worry about the effect it might have on your plans or needs. Employment is an economic relationship. Act as professionally as you can, but make your self interest the first priority.
If they have everyone on 1099's even though they are supposedly a relatively prominent firm with plenty of work, they sound shady as Hell. I'm from Colorado and I'm curious about who they are, but I understand why you don't want to out them right now.
People working as 1099s really need to make sure that their employer is paying them somewhat more than other firms that actually play by the rules. The additional expense for a 1099 person to pay the full amount of self employment tax, health insurance etc., adds up fast. You are also not getting paid vacations, sick days, retirement matches, etc.
I would wait to give your notice until you have secured another position, Then give them a professional letter of resignation and walk. If they give you any shit I would turn them into the IRS for illegally classifying employees as 1099. I guarantee that you and your coworkers don’t meet the definition of a subcontractor based on your description of the office environment and it doesn’t matter if you accepted the job as such. https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-8919
For reference, here is a definition of what an independent contractor is:An independent contractor provides a good or service to another individual or business, often under the terms of a contract that dictates the work outcome, but the contractor retains control over how they provide the good or service.[2] The independent contractor is not subject to the employer’s control or guidance except as designated in a mutually binding agreement. The contract for a specific job usually describes its expected outcome.[3] Essentially, independent contractors treat their employers more like customers or clients, often have multiple clients, and are self-employed.
Sorry to hear your current situation sucks. I didn't have a chance to read all the updates, but if you're still looking for a position, find me on LinkedIn, and I'll do what I can to help! I'm in Denver.
I'm in Grand Junction so a bit farther west than that. Honestly I've never heard the RFV called the Western Slope. It always seemed like that area wanted to be its own (expensive) thing. ;)
Also CO here. Curious where you're at that has that bad if a reputation....I know if a few firms hiring right now.VDTA, ZGF (just opened here), Gensler, Arch 11, Goettsch Partners just opened an office here as well to name a few.
Leaving a toxic architecture firm can be a difficult process. Reach out to colleagues and mentors for advice and support. Make sure you have a plan for how you will transition out of the firm and take steps to protect yourself legally and financially!
I will add another three cents loosely connected to this thread, as I also left toxic firm at the end of last year, and recently had a chance to reconnect with former coworkers. Approximately 6 of us left within few months (~10 person company). So, out of these 4 people that remained, 2 of them were on design team - both asked me on different occasions, why is everyone leaving and what's wrong with the firm. They genuinely didn't know - I think it has to do with the fact that they're immigrants from places with much lower standards, and it was their first or second job, from which first one was could've been even worse, so they don't know any better.
Like I mentioned earlier, while chatting with my former coworkers, I was surprised that I wasn't the only one treated like shit. And even though company wasn't that bad after all and my boss had some good moments, at the end of the day her greed, delusion and unmatched narcissism made me so fired up that it was very difficult to stay polite and professional when she changed her tone after I handed her 2 weeks notice. The firm itself was well organized IMO, it's just my principle had terrible personality traits.
Out of the long list of her shenanigans, one that particularly annoyed me was her complaining about how much she pays for all the business expenses and how basically she makes no profit (thus making us feel guilty that she has to spend money for example on Revit licenses), yet just during my couple of years with the firm she purchased multiple properties and cars, and grew her business exponentially. Or her stories of 'struggling' in earlier years - but yet when we spoke in casual setting about cars we owned, it turned out she had a long streak of luxury European vehicles, one after another. So I did the math and realized that when I drove my overheating 1994 Corolla in my early 20s few years ago (we are the same age, she inherited firm from her parents), she had a brand new Porsche Macan at that time, having a Mercedes before, Jaguar after, etc.
Last but not least, cherry on the top was when she surprised me a raise announcement, but didn't deliver - and when I reminded her, she answered with furious rant on how much money the firm is losing because of my mistakes, and how scared she is she may get in trouble because of my recklessness. Not only I didn't do any mistakes, she also made some stats right before that on which designer had the most permits and work done, and it was determined I was 2nd most efficient worker there... talk about mood swings. I could also go all day about about her violating various state labor laws or simply being a bitch to both me and my coworkers, but my rant is already too long. Over
Today I had to leave rather suddenly. I had planned to leave the other week, but a really great coworker of mine convinced me to stick it out a little longer. I needed the money, besides.
Today on a Teams call I was called an immature idiot by the principal, who was irate that we had to clarify some things before a deadline tomorrow. He was furious that we hadn’t already understood what he needed. I abruptly left the call to prevent myself from saying something regrettable.
After I informed the principals of my intentions, they become upset, asking how I could justify leaving on a whim. I referenced my 1099, which allows for that. Should I be worried about a lawsuit since I left on the Eve of a deadline? I am well within my contract.
I wouldn't worry about it. The odds of them coming after you are pretty slim.
Maybe now is the time to reach out to state and local authorities about the mis-classification of you and everybody else in the office as 1099's.
Feb 2, 23 6:24 pm ·
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reallynotmyname
If your bosses are so broke/cheap that they make all the staff 1099s, they probably won't spend the money on a lawyer to sue you. (Which I don't think they have grounds to do anyway).
Unless your contract stated when your end date was and / or that you were to finish project 'x' I think you'd be just fine quitting without legal concerns.
On a side note, I really want to know what firm this is.
why isn't your really great coworker planning to leave too? honestly, you can't actually be good working in a toxic firm. it limits you and eventually degrades your potential. there is never a good excuse for staying.
if there is a lawsuit, how much of your employer's books can you get into in discovery? how they operate their business would then become public if it's admitted into court right?
I sincerely hope you don't go back on Monday or have anything to do with those people ever again. You don't need them nor do you deserve to be treated that way.
If you're not violating your contract you don't have to worry about a lawsuit, and like others have said if their business practices are so shady and illegal they're not going to want that to be revealed.
Go and don't look back. You're only young once, don't waste your time or your life on these people.
P.S. If you at least gave some hints about which firm this is, you'd be doing a lot of people a favor including potential future employees.
I left Friday. Took one more insulting quip about “you’re not thinking right” and I sent my resignation. I’m not revealing the office, not because of fear of retribution (they don’t even know what archinect is) but because it’s so irrelevant and small in the Colorado front range eco system. They contracted from 60 people to 6 in 2008. They’re dwindling.
I'm glad to hear you left. I think with the hint you gave about the firm dwindling in size people will be able to figure out who they are and avoid them. Good luck in your future endeavors!
Feb 7, 23 10:21 am ·
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How to Leave a Toxic Firm
Hello Everyone,
This is going to be as anonymous as possible. I am a recent masters graduate working at an unnamed firm somewhere in Colorado. I have been employed for two years at my current office.
Without getting into too much detail, the office basically doesn’t function, and I think it’s time to leave - though it’s not that simple.
This was a large and vastly popular practice before 2008, but contracted severely during the recession, and has remained at that size. There are no benefits, no bonuses, and pretty much everyone (aside from the principals) is a 1099 (including myself) making below average wages. They refuse to hire any actual actual employees, the mindset being that the economy could collapse at any second. They operate by obsessing over the operating ratio and focussing only on cashflow one month at a time. It has destroyed our ability to efficiently respond to client needs.
I think I’ve maybe experienced one meeting in two years. We never meet to discuss goals or expectations. Employees/contractors are expected to understand without communication; communication is seen as costly and time consuming. Both principals operate in isolation from each other on the same projects. The results are embarrassing for the firm.
There are frequent outbursts from principals, yelling at employees, expecting weekend overtime, and intrusive calls and e-mails through the night and on weekends. Ignoring these things gets you in hot water. They haven’t fired anyone because of how busy they are.
I have been planning on leaving since November. I have some exciting prospects to focus on. However, I have become so entangled with the management of our clients/projects and drawing production that my leaving the office would cause workflow to stop. They don’t know I’m planning on a change, but have warned me (and others) against leaving, knowing how disrupted the office would become.
What are some suggestions for respectively leaving a toxic office? I feel very trapped, the only way out seems like a burned bridge.
Thanks for reading the extremely long post!
Their problems, and fuck if I worked there I would have been charged with assault already, are theirs not yours. You seem to have a version of Stockholm Syndrome. If you think by giving a standard two weeks is going to have a deleterious affect on your career, burn that bridge, today. Or, set fire to the office and save your coworkers.
Get out.
Now.
I’ve been told that many younger employees who came before have blown up and stormed out of the office. Trying to avoid that myself, but it’s getting more insane every week.
only will add - if other architects in the area know anything about the firm, they won't hold it against you for leaving. they'll probably know how bad an environment it is.
the cool thing about quitting is that their problem stops being your problem
I’d go talk to the partner you get along best with and just tell them you are leaving. Be direct about your reasons - don’t worry about stepping on toes. That time has past. Give them a shot to propose some alternative, but don’t offer one. It’s not your problem, esp as a 1099.
Do not give 2 weeks notice.
Go invest in yourself and your exciting prospects. [In parallel, you may reach out to a client or two who may want to avoid the shit show by staying with you…]
I second all the above except for the part about not giving 2 weeks notice. You need to stay professional and classy, even when the bosses are not. Real asshole bosses will often just tell you to leave immediately the day you give notice, which probably wouldn't be a bad thing. Do be packed up and ready to walk out of the building forever when you give them the news. If you have any vacation days due, maybe use them to cut down on the amount of the two weeks you may have to spend in the office.
Thank you…I should also add that the principal has not approved any of my hundreds and hundreds of AXP hours in the two years I’ve been there…I noticed this a few weeks ago, so it’s on me for not checking sooner. It’s not clear why this is the case. He may not be getting the emails from NCARB.
YOU REALLY NEED TO GET THAT SORTED OUT BEFORE YOU LEAVE OR GIVE NOTICE. LIKE SIT WITH THEM AT THE COMPUTER AND MAKE IT HAPPEN
GO DO IT TOMORROW! bring them a cup of coffee and ask them to figure it out with you get anything you can approve now. the time limit (I think 8 months) applies for full credit. anything past that you can at least get half credit. SERIOUSLY I WANT TO HEAR TOMORROW THAT YOU GIT THEM TO APPROVE SOME HOURS
i dunno, 2 weeks seems incredibly generous when you're both not an employee and these people are terrible. 1 week max.
What you describe is a hopelessly broken operation. You need to leave immediately. What happens after you leave is not your responsibility. Burning a bridge with toxic bosses isn't really a bad thing.
Thank you all for the comments. I should add that my principal has not approved a single AXP hour…I just realized this in the past few weeks. It’s not clear why; he may not be receiving NCARB notifications for all I know. That is something I definitely need to salvage if possible.
I hope that it's just a matter of missed emails. You need to get those hours approved ASAP. I'm concerned you may lose out under NCARB's 8 month reporting requirement. Contact NCARB and plead for mercy if you have to. Know that the boss can easily rob you of the hours if they decide they want to by claiming you did subpar work and checking the "disapprove" box. For that reason, get the AXP approved before you give notice.
Are these fucks AIA? They've already violated about three AIA Code of Conduct rules.
Yes. As of now I hadn’t thought about through the lens of AIA violations.
NOT approving the hours you submitted like that is a violation. People have been reprimanded in the past for this. It is a direct and very clear violation of AIA Cannon V rule 5.201 to withhold approval like that.
man, we really need a Gordon Ramsey of architecture to smack some fools around.
It sounds like he already runs the place.
You are an independent contractor - none of the standard protocols of employer/employee apply. You can simply stop whatever it is you are doing at any time. You should have been dictating how and when you work the entire time. They are paying you as an independent contractor and treating you as an employee.
Agree with most on here. The way I put it is if you're a fulltime employee somewhere they will never give you the luxury of giving you a two weeks heads up you are getting fired but for some reason that is the norm for us as employees? If you are 1099, secure a better job and get the hell out of dodge. Talk to a principal you are close to and let them know you are leaving and that's it. It is their problem if everything comes to a grinding halt when you leave because their staffing seems to be a massive problem.
I agree. Both principals are seriously in a different reality. This morning has been bad so far. Already there has been a re-hashing of client meeting last Friday, which went poorly due to a lack of communication beforehand. Let’s just say I’m not the only one who’s been called “mysteriously incompetent”. I’ll wait for the dust to settle, then I’ll likely resign. I’ve been wanting to talk to NCARB today about my unapproved hours (nearly 1000) but I don’t know if there’s much they can do.
so, you need to make sure you have documentation (or that NCARB has documentation) on when you've submitted reports for them to sign off on. there are repercussions if they just refuse to out of spite. and i think it's important because you're establishing you've been consistently sending the reports in a timely manner, vs. forgetting to and gathering all the info together in one go (what NCARB's rule was intended to help prevent). you should be able to file an appeal to NCARB if it comes to that. AND.... this is why you should have an IDP mentor, who is separate from your supervisor. hopefully you do. if not, find one. now. they are also your advocates to NCARB in a situation like this.
My firm is nearly not as bad, but I still feel its Toxic AF. Seems like this a firm that you MUST burn bridges with.
a new thought I had was this, and maybe it’s far too lenient:
I could agree to complete the SD/DD phase of my current project ONLY if they agree to approve the AXP hours. This would allow me to ensure some income stability until the new job starts. But, it would mean that I continue to put up with the insanity and chaos of the office. It also sets up the possibility that they could reject the proposal and decide that it’s better if I’m gone.
It's fundamentally wrong that your rightfully earned AXP credits should be held hostage in exchange for performing exit-related tasks.
I wouldn't tie it to the hours. The hours and your departure are separate issues. I would get harassingly insistent about those hours (escalate to the point of multiple daily reminders), secure as many of them as I could, then tell them I'm leaving. If you want the income then you can tell them your timeline and frame it as helping "wrap things up." Timeline is better than milestone because milestones have a way of moving. But it's fine to just quit outright. Be tactful but firm. You won't regret it a month from now.
If you do what you propose (which could well be the path of least resistance), make sure you have a written contract. This shouldn't be a problem for the bosses since they have you classified as a 1099 contractor, who, by definition, should be working under a contract. Approval of all AXP to date should be the first thing that happens under the agreement. Then you do the SD/DD work with the bosses incrementally approving your AXP hours for the SD/DD regularly, like on each payday.
How can you get AXP hours as a 1099? I was under the impression that you had to be an “employee”. A 1099 contractor is technically not “under the direct supervision” of the employer per IRS classifications.
Furthermore, how can an architectural firm hire 1099 employees whom aren’t licensed? As a contractor, I can only subcontract/1099 others who are independently licensed. I can 1099 someone to do work that doesn’t require a license. I can’t subcontract someone to do work that does require a license, even though I have a license, because I can’t technically have direct control over unless they are an employee.
It's different for professional licensure situations. In an architectural firm if you're not licensed then all of your work is under direct supervision of an architect.
Same thing with say a traveling nurse or doctor. Both are considered 1099 contractors but both are under the direct supervision of another licensed medical professional.
If challenged, the OP would need to prove to NCARB that they were misclassified as a 1099, which strongly appears to be the case here.
I don't think they would need to do that though. Anything the OP did at the firm would need to be under direct supervision of an architect. It's required by law. If the employer would say otherwise I'd think they'd get in big trouble with the state's licensing board.
This happened to a architect in a city I used to live in. This architect was a petty jerk and hired everyone as a 1099. He tried to not sign off on AXP hours for an employee who was leaving. The state regulatory board, NCARB, and AIA slapped him with a bunch of fines and he nearly lost his license.
Ncarb may handle it differently, but the IRS definition is clear. Independent contractors work independently, without direct supervision.
Doesn't matter. You can be a 1099 and still work under supervision of someone if a regulatory board requires it. AKA - the final work requires a licensed professional to sign off on it. It's a grey area. In this type of situation a business is incorrectly classifying someone as a 1099. Hence why they get in trouble.
https://archinect.com/forum/thread/150201575/first-time-contracting-as-a-designer-out-of-grad-school
Some discussion of that in this thread.
Yup. As I said above . . .
You're confusing two things. Independent Contractor doesn't mean that your employer doesn't have a supervisorly role in your work effort. How could you be independent in that way, it's not your client, and the labor is still provided on behalf of the firm owner. Independent means that all of responsibility for paying taxes and social security is yours to bear.
Not according to the IRS. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee
I’m construction we have the option for employees or subcontractors. Sure, many contractors illegally hire independent contractors and treat them as employees, but it’s not legal. If it were, life would be a lot easier and more profitable for most contractors. I’m pretty sure the laws are consistent across professions, but probably more heavily enforced in construction because of workman’s comp, dangerous nature of the work, etc.
You're completely misconstruing what that link states.
Sorry x-jla - you are incorrect about this. It's easy to do with the wording of things. If you speak to an accountant and or a lawyer you'll see that a 1099 employee can be under the direct supervision of someone.
Chad, I’d be happy to be proven wrong on this, as it would make my life much easier, but I’m pretty sure that I’m not. The term 1099 employee is misleading. A 1099 is a independent contractor providing a particular service for the company. An architectural firm may choose to hire a freelance web designer or rendering company for instance. Anyone who is paid over 600$ to provide a service must be issued a 1099. If a company has 1099 workers, whom they treat as employees (see the outline below), and that is discovered upon an employee audit by the irs, that company could face significant fines. Uber recently had to pay (not sure if they got out of it) 100mil for this type of violation. Independent contractor and subcontractor is synonymous. Independent contractors are hired to provide a particular service that they don’t need supervision for. They do it on their own timeline. They can do it for one or many companies. They don’t have their name on company cards, wear company logos, etc.
X-jla - I'd recommend you speak to your accountant and or lawyer on this.
You're talking about 1099's in a non professional service job and if you can be a 1099 and still be under direct supervision of someone else in a professional job that requires licensure.
The two are very different and have different tax rules that can vary by state.
I’m not sure if ncarb cares or not. They may not care. The irs and Department or labor definitely draws clear lines however. To me it sounds like this firm is operating illegally.
Chad, read what spacecraftbureau linked below.
I have and I did. I'm not going to debate this with you x-jla.
You need to contact your accountant and lawyer. Have them explain the difference between contract employees, independent contractors, and how you can be classified as a 1099 for either.
Specifically see myth #3.
This firm isn't just toxic, misclassification as a 1099 employee when you're obviously not is illegal and extremely shady. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/w...
You absolutely don't deserve to be treated the way you've described. You absolutely don't owe them anything including a single second more of your time. There's never going to be a "good" way out of a toxic relationship. Cut off all contact with them and don't go back. I mean tomorrow. Run, don't walk.
This right here. All of this really gets to the crux of the issue.
update as of tonight: This is my last week, and I am extremely relieved - though there will be a little financial pressure before the new job starts. Today’s achievement is that I’ve been able to get the AXP hours approved. There was actually no malice - just incompetence and disorganization as I had assumed. Still leaving as soon as I can.
Per the 1099 comments: This has become extremely common in architecture, according to other friends/peers of mine. Often times it occurs with very skittish/paranoid managers who were burned badly in ‘08 and have anxiety about taking a chance with a full hire. Of course, it’s unethical, and will only damage their business.
Really glad to hear it. Nice work
"my leaving the office would cause workflow to stop" - you should never worry about that. I agree with everyone here, you need to get out ASAP, and since you are 1099, 2-weeks notice is not even needed. My principal in previous job had some toxic elements too, but it wasn't as bad as yours, and since I was a full time employee with health insurance and small package of benefits, I just handed her two weeks and politely rejected the efforts to keep me in. EDIT: just saw that you're actually leaving the firm in a week, good job.
IF they were laying you off, they wouldn't worry about the effect it might have on your plans or needs. Employment is an economic relationship. Act as professionally as you can, but make your self interest the first priority.
If they have everyone on 1099's even though they are supposedly a relatively prominent firm with plenty of work, they sound shady as Hell. I'm from Colorado and I'm curious about who they are, but I understand why you don't want to out them right now.
People working as 1099s really need to make sure that their employer is paying them somewhat more than other firms that actually play by the rules. The additional expense for a 1099 person to pay the full amount of self employment tax, health insurance etc., adds up fast. You are also not getting paid vacations, sick days, retirement matches, etc.
Absolutely!
I would wait to give your notice until you have secured another position, Then give them a professional letter of resignation and walk. If they give you any shit I would turn them into the IRS for illegally classifying employees as 1099. I guarantee that you and your coworkers don’t meet the definition of a subcontractor based on your description of the office environment and it doesn’t matter if you accepted the job as such. https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-8919
Sorry here is the correct IRS form: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf
For reference, here is a definition of what an independent contractor is:An independent contractor provides a good or service to another individual or business, often under the terms of a contract that dictates the work outcome, but the contractor retains control over how they provide the good or service.[2] The independent contractor is not subject to the employer’s control or guidance except as designated in a mutually binding agreement. The contract for a specific job usually describes its expected outcome.[3] Essentially, independent contractors treat their employers more like customers or clients, often have multiple clients, and are self-employed.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d10ef48024ce300010f0f0c/t/5d1bb81a7c15100001d76dd8/1562097690744/Misclassification+of+Employees+2016+Format+Update.pdf
Sorry to hear your current situation sucks. I didn't have a chance to read all the updates, but if you're still looking for a position, find me on LinkedIn, and I'll do what I can to help! I'm in Denver.
I have some good contacts on the Western Slope if you're still looking for a position in Colorado as well.
I think I know you. :)
It's entirely possible! I was in the RFV for a while, and left in 2021 due to rising housing costs..
I'm in Grand Junction so a bit farther west than that. Honestly I've never heard the RFV called the Western Slope. It always seemed like that area wanted to be its own (expensive) thing. ;)
Also CO here. Curious where you're at that has that bad if a reputation....I know if a few firms hiring right now.VDTA, ZGF (just opened here), Gensler, Arch 11, Goettsch Partners just opened an office here as well to name a few.
Leaving a toxic architecture firm can be a difficult process. Reach out to colleagues and mentors for advice and support. Make sure you have a plan for how you will transition out of the firm and take steps to protect yourself legally and financially!
I will add another three cents loosely connected to this thread, as I also left toxic firm at the end of last year, and recently had a chance to reconnect with former coworkers. Approximately 6 of us left within few months (~10 person company). So, out of these 4 people that remained, 2 of them were on design team - both asked me on different occasions, why is everyone leaving and what's wrong with the firm. They genuinely didn't know - I think it has to do with the fact that they're immigrants from places with much lower standards, and it was their first or second job, from which first one was could've been even worse, so they don't know any better.
Like I mentioned earlier, while chatting with my former coworkers, I was surprised that I wasn't the only one treated like shit. And even though company wasn't that bad after all and my boss had some good moments, at the end of the day her greed, delusion and unmatched narcissism made me so fired up that it was very difficult to stay polite and professional when she changed her tone after I handed her 2 weeks notice. The firm itself was well organized IMO, it's just my principle had terrible personality traits.
Out of the long list of her shenanigans, one that particularly annoyed me was her complaining about how much she pays for all the business expenses and how basically she makes no profit (thus making us feel guilty that she has to spend money for example on Revit licenses), yet just during my couple of years with the firm she purchased multiple properties and cars, and grew her business exponentially. Or her stories of 'struggling' in earlier years - but yet when we spoke in casual setting about cars we owned, it turned out she had a long streak of luxury European vehicles, one after another. So I did the math and realized that when I drove my overheating 1994 Corolla in my early 20s few years ago (we are the same age, she inherited firm from her parents), she had a brand new Porsche Macan at that time, having a Mercedes before, Jaguar after, etc.
Last but not least, cherry on the top was when she surprised me a raise announcement, but didn't deliver - and when I reminded her, she answered with furious rant on how much money the firm is losing because of my mistakes, and how scared she is she may get in trouble because of my recklessness. Not only I didn't do any mistakes, she also made some stats right before that on which designer had the most permits and work done, and it was determined I was 2nd most efficient worker there... talk about mood swings. I could also go all day about about her violating various state labor laws or simply being a bitch to both me and my coworkers, but my rant is already too long. Over
Hello everyone,
Today I had to leave rather suddenly. I had planned to leave the other week, but a really great coworker of mine convinced me to stick it out a little longer. I needed the money, besides.
Today on a Teams call I was called an immature idiot by the principal, who was irate that we had to clarify some things before a deadline tomorrow. He was furious that we hadn’t already understood what he needed. I abruptly left the call to prevent myself from saying something regrettable.
After I informed the principals of my intentions, they become upset, asking how I could justify leaving on a whim. I referenced my 1099, which allows for that. Should I be worried about a lawsuit since I left on the Eve of a deadline? I am well within my contract.
I wouldn't worry about it. The odds of them coming after you are pretty slim. Maybe now is the time to reach out to state and local authorities about the mis-classification of you and everybody else in the office as 1099's.
If your bosses are so broke/cheap that they make all the staff 1099s, they probably won't spend the money on a lawyer to sue you. (Which I don't think they have grounds to do anyway).
Unless your contract stated when your end date was and / or that you were to finish project 'x' I think you'd be just fine quitting without legal concerns.
On a side note, I really want to know what firm this is.
why isn't your really great coworker planning to leave too? honestly, you can't actually be good working in a toxic firm. it limits you and eventually degrades your potential. there is never a good excuse for staying.
I'll be curt, just leave.
if there is a lawsuit, how much of your employer's books can you get into in discovery? how they operate their business would then become public if it's admitted into court right?
I sincerely hope you don't go back on Monday or have anything to do with those people ever again. You don't need them nor do you deserve to be treated that way.
If you're not violating your contract you don't have to worry about a lawsuit, and like others have said if their business practices are so shady and illegal they're not going to want that to be revealed.
Go and don't look back. You're only young once, don't waste your time or your life on these people.
P.S. If you at least gave some hints about which firm this is, you'd be doing a lot of people a favor including potential future employees.
I left Friday. Took one more insulting quip about “you’re not thinking right” and I sent my resignation. I’m not revealing the office, not because of fear of retribution (they don’t even know what archinect is) but because it’s so irrelevant and small in the Colorado front range eco system. They contracted from 60 people to 6 in 2008. They’re dwindling.
I'm glad to hear you left. I think with the hint you gave about the firm dwindling in size people will be able to figure out who they are and avoid them. Good luck in your future endeavors!
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