Hello, I would like to start a conversation regarding grocery stores and their layouts and I am interested if that has become its own type of specialization in the architecture discipline yet?
I have observed the urgent need to change the layouts of traditional supermarkets and grocery stores in New York City. The layout is different from store to store and depending on size, customized, but the way its laid out is not 100% applicable anymore given changing consumer demands, changing interests and also regional preferences.
However, I see the need to reinvent supermarkets and also discourage from fully packed shelves, which mostly leads to food waste and their like.
In general, since I am not fully aware, is supermarket design a separate specialization in architecture?
In general when it comes to large grocery chains the Architect has little to no input on the interior store layout. That is all dictated by the economics & strategies of the grocer based on cumulative data over the years. For a non custom store, out in a new suburb development for instance, it's relatively typical for the grocer to handle architectural services in house from the interior face of masonry inwards & hire an outside architectural firm to handle from the masonry wall outwards. Submitting as two separate permits.
For certain types of stores the architect may handle the interiors as well, but it is dictated by the grocer's standards & has far more to do with equipment than where the apples go.
What the grocers do is it's own kind of architecture perhaps. There is a lot of thought and strategy that goes into the design of the spaces, just not from us... It's no coincidence that the milk is always in the back.
... and it does in fact have a lot to do with where the apples (and the rest of the produce) go in the store actually.
Agreed entirely, I just meant that it's not from us & most people don't realize that the interior of the store is mostly handled in house by the grocer. There have been a number of studies about why items are placed in different areas. The big ticket items are placed opposite of each other & they are hoping you will walk through individual aisles & see something else you like on the way. It's economics & behavior sciences 101.
Depends on the state. Some states require an architect or licensed interior designer to layout the stores. The owner will have certain programming numbers to comply with (aka LF of shelving).
Dec 13, 22 1:39 pm ·
·
RJ87
Agreed. When I say in house I mean they have an architectural / facilities planning department. We're talking about large companies.
Which, if we're being honest, is the preferred method for reducing headaches. You can make a ton of money tracking the equipment changes through multiple stores & charging for changes at an hourly rate, but you basically have to have a dedicated member of the team to track them through each project. Same goes for the smaller projects like a Starbucks or something. It can be lucrative but depending on the client may not be worth the headache vs just doing additional "cleaner" projects. To each their own.
I think this is an interesting subject, but not really one of architects. Also, regarding New York City in general, grocery stores here mostly do what they can. There's plenty of awesome stores weaving in and out of existing buildings and making things work. The real study would be out in regular America where there's room to do things.
Also, there isn't as much food waste on grocery store shelves as you imagine in New York City.
However, the other reasons I have started this conversation are these:
- today I was shocked how expensive produce is at a regular grocery store in Manhattan and I have also been shocked how expensive certain items are at a big grocery store in Queens, that is one thing, which I believe leads to food waste, since there are many people not able to afford some food, including myself at some point
- during COvID19 and the strict stay at home regulation time, I was not able to understand how the produce got sold and I am certain that much food had to be thrown away
- I am thinking about a more interdisciplinary approach and was interested in this specific topic, where I think the architect should lay out the whole structure and convince the grocer about certain things to enable a more ‘sustainable layout’
Dec 13, 22 4:10 pm ·
·
Non Sequitur
We were tied at the hip with a large (but local) hipster-friendly produce only type grocery store for years. They had their own interior design department that played with layouts and what not... which was a pain because other than shelving, there is a metric shit tonne worth of work that goes to organizing all the below slab services for the non-produce sections. Anyways, this particular chain had the brilliant idea several years ago to build a large commercial kitchen facility and ship it's soon to be past sell-by-date produce overnight. This food became ingredients for their own in-house premade meals... which was then shipped back to stores the next morning in time for hot breakfast & lunches.
We got to build this commercial kitchen.
Dec 13, 22 4:16 pm ·
·
Bench
Did it work? 99% sure i have shopped at said local chain...
I'm sure you have Bench. One of it's trademarks was a motorized gorilla above the banana displays. They are not local anymore since they expanded well outside of their original market... then got bought out by a large corp grocery chain.
It's an important subject, however I don't see how an architect could help as an architect with the information you've provided. Which is to say, yes, we're very good information managers, but I don't see food waste at the scale of the individual grocery stores fitting in the format of a traditional owner-architect project. Nor do I see it as the driving factor in food waste and cost.
As you say, it's interdisciplinary: I'll go further to say that subject-specific experts, policy makers, and activists are better suited for this work. Resource allocation is an enormously complex and politically important effort. Architects can and should be involved, but perhaps as citizens or consultants.
My personal ideological subtext: not everything is a design opportunity. Political problems cannot be resolved with technical interpretations.
Dec 13, 22 7:21 pm ·
·
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Supermarkets Grocery Stores Reinvented Reenvisioned
Hello, I would like to start a conversation regarding grocery stores and their layouts and I am interested if that has become its own type of specialization in the architecture discipline yet?
I have observed the urgent need to change the layouts of traditional supermarkets and grocery stores in New York City. The layout is different from store to store and depending on size, customized, but the way its laid out is not 100% applicable anymore given changing consumer demands, changing interests and also regional preferences.
However, I see the need to reinvent supermarkets and also discourage from fully packed shelves, which mostly leads to food waste and their like.
In general, since I am not fully aware, is supermarket design a separate specialization in architecture?
Anyone has some ideas or thoughts to share?
Thanks
Friederike
In general when it comes to large grocery chains the Architect has little to no input on the interior store layout. That is all dictated by the economics & strategies of the grocer based on cumulative data over the years. For a non custom store, out in a new suburb development for instance, it's relatively typical for the grocer to handle architectural services in house from the interior face of masonry inwards & hire an outside architectural firm to handle from the masonry wall outwards. Submitting as two separate permits.
For certain types of stores the architect may handle the interiors as well, but it is dictated by the grocer's standards & has far more to do with equipment than where the apples go.
What the grocers do is it's own kind of architecture perhaps. There is a lot of thought and strategy that goes into the design of the spaces, just not from us... It's no coincidence that the milk is always in the back.
... and it does in fact have a lot to do with where the apples (and the rest of the produce) go in the store actually.
Agreed entirely, I just meant that it's not from us & most people don't realize that the interior of the store is mostly handled in house by the grocer. There have been a number of studies about why items are placed in different areas. The big ticket items are placed opposite of each other & they are hoping you will walk through individual aisles & see something else you like on the way. It's economics & behavior sciences 101.
Depends on the state. Some states require an architect or licensed interior designer to layout the stores. The owner will have certain programming numbers to comply with (aka LF of shelving).
Agreed. When I say in house I mean they have an architectural / facilities planning department. We're talking about large companies.
Very true. The big box stores have in house Arch and ID's to do this stuff. Typically they only hire an Architect of Record to do the core / shell.
Which, if we're being honest, is the preferred method for reducing headaches. You can make a ton of money tracking the equipment changes through multiple stores & charging for changes at an hourly rate, but you basically have to have a dedicated member of the team to track them through each project. Same goes for the smaller projects like a Starbucks or something. It can be lucrative but depending on the client may not be worth the headache vs just doing additional "cleaner" projects. To each their own.
I think this is more the work of Industrial Organizational Psychologists.
https://www.greenbook.org/mr/b...
I think this is an interesting subject, but not really one of architects. Also, regarding New York City in general, grocery stores here mostly do what they can. There's plenty of awesome stores weaving in and out of existing buildings and making things work. The real study would be out in regular America where there's room to do things.
Also, there isn't as much food waste on grocery store shelves as you imagine in New York City.
so happy about the replies already! Thank you.
I have a few facts to share regarding food waste, there is still a lot and for me its combining some issues
https://www.nycfoodpolicy.org/food-waste-food-by-the-numbers/
there is actually quite a lot of waste
However, the other reasons I have started this conversation are these:
- today I was shocked how expensive produce is at a regular grocery store in Manhattan and I have also been shocked how expensive certain items are at a big grocery store in Queens, that is one thing, which I believe leads to food waste, since there are many people not able to afford some food, including myself at some point
- during COvID19 and the strict stay at home regulation time, I was not able to understand how the produce got sold and I am certain that much food had to be thrown away
- I am thinking about a more interdisciplinary approach and was interested in this specific topic, where I think the architect should lay out the whole structure and convince the grocer about certain things to enable a more ‘sustainable layout’
We were tied at the hip with a large (but local) hipster-friendly produce only type grocery store for years. They had their own interior design department that played with layouts and what not... which was a pain because other than shelving, there is a metric shit tonne worth of work that goes to organizing all the below slab services for the non-produce sections. Anyways, this particular chain had the brilliant idea several years ago to build a large commercial kitchen facility and ship it's soon to be past sell-by-date produce overnight. This food became ingredients for their own in-house premade meals... which was then shipped back to stores the next morning in time for hot breakfast & lunches.
We got to build this commercial kitchen.
Did it work? 99% sure i have shopped at said local chain...
I'm sure you have Bench. One of it's trademarks was a motorized gorilla above the banana displays. They are not local anymore since they expanded well outside of their original market... then got bought out by a large corp grocery chain.
Ha! That's the one I was thinking of.
It's an important subject, however I don't see how an architect could help as an architect with the information you've provided. Which is to say, yes, we're very good information managers, but I don't see food waste at the scale of the individual grocery stores fitting in the format of a traditional owner-architect project. Nor do I see it as the driving factor in food waste and cost.
As you say, it's interdisciplinary: I'll go further to say that subject-specific experts, policy makers, and activists are better suited for this work. Resource allocation is an enormously complex and politically important effort. Architects can and should be involved, but perhaps as citizens or consultants.
My personal ideological subtext: not everything is a design opportunity. Political problems cannot be resolved with technical interpretations.
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