So I was at our state's AIA conference this weekend, where one of the sessions I attended was specifically about burnout, and tips to avoid it, given by Michael LaValley. In addition, nearly every session this weekend mentioned the recent troubles of burnout and the "great resignation" that we've been seeing in the past couple of years.
I'm hoping this thread can be a place to discuss your experiences with burnout, and your own personal journeys through escaping the struggle, whether that's been making changes that helped you stay in architecture, or whether it's been deciding to leave the profession altogether.
My own experiences have shown a cycle of stress that has led me to switch firms three times in four and a half years. I would feel that I wasn't being adequately challenged at a position, and the long hours would lead to dissatisfaction with the general city I was living in, to the point that I would give my two-four weeks and find a new city and new firm to work in.
I've eased my troubles by branching out to find new hobbies, connecting with my local AIA community, and ultimately, finding fulfillment outside of my job.
That is a completely valid reason for burnout. I've been in a certain buzzword-left-wing political circle for a long time, which can make personal life really discouraging at times. I know that what I've done (to marginal success) is to go and volunteer some of my time working with local groups that make a difference in my community, while also helping myself feel as though I'm "walking the walk" of my personal politics.
Hope things look up for you soon Donna! Feel free to reach out!
I've given up on the world Donna, especially the state of affairs in this country, where it feels more and more that we are just left on our own to figure shit out, without any real social net.
On top of it, coming to terms that my work is basically just a paycheck at this point does not help either.
I have been using bike rides (and all the geekery that comes with it) as therapy to deal with all of this crap.
Part of it is the constant mill of news our tech provides us but it also feels like people are less friendly, maybe because of all the tech. Either way, connecting with people and casual social interactions I find go a long way to helping one feel good. Exercise is also good. Basically we're 15th century people living in the 21st century. Best of luck to our beloved little blue pearl.
let's not mix two entirely separate things. If I jump ship to better positions, clearly I have more in the tank to step into my more (presumably) demanding role. That's not burnout, that's promotion stagnation and dissatisfaction. It took a good 6 months after grad school for my own body to catch up to normal sleep cycles and for me to realize I was constantly running at 70% at best. That's burnout, and you can't start healing from it until you severely alter the demands of your situation. A job switch can sometimes do that for you, but recognize that it'll take longer to get back to 100% if you're still working out on a sprained ankle, so to speak.
I'm slow walking out of the profession, whether that takes a year or two or three depends on how I can speed it up/ afford the financial hit (or a bad economy will do it for me). Tried firm changes to see if it was the firm or profession, found out its the latter. You can only do so much exercise or meditation or substances to blunt the burnout but it eventually breaks through all of that if there is fundamental lack of desire of continuing on the current path.
There are many opportunities that are adjacent to architecture that pay better and have a better work/life balance. Construction, Owner's representative, development manager, ... what type of design work have you been working on?
was starting to move into more of a management role when the pandemic hit. My wife was required to be in person and I was responsible for majority of childcare in addition to working 50+ hours a week. It did not work. I was being pushed to do/learn a whole bunch of new things at work and I couldn’t do it.
With burn out people have a hard time learning new things - retaining information - taking risks. It was the absolute worst time for me in terms of my career development and I’m still recovering. I used to be a lot more confident but now I’m second guessing everything to the point where I can’t move things forward without checking in with someone.
I'm burnt out as well. A lot of things causing an incredible amount of stress. Work is a small part of it. However with the 'interesting' clients we're getting work is pushing me over the edge. I ALMOST lost my cool with a collogue who harshly and publicly reprimanded me for some office stuff. I had to remind myself that the collogue is going though some family stuff but damn, I almost gave my two weeks.
are we set up a little for this given the way the hero architect archetype was indirectly pushed in our introduction to the profession? are we ever going to be happy unless we are all sole proprietors?
or is it that modern business culture in general is toxic/sociopathic?
I don't know anyone who was directly or indirectly pushed to the 'hero architect' idea. The only people I've met who subscribe to that idea are egotistical douchebags who aren't good architects.
In the US I think burnout is more due to overall stress and the stigma of caring for a persons mental health. Not having access to affordable / free health care is also a big part of this.
Sole proprietorship helps, but at the end of the day you still have clients to answer to. There is no situation in a service profession where you are completely free from a “boss”. The only real difference in a sole prop is that you can drink beer in the office.
@chad, "Hero archetype" insofar as studio is set up as individuals designing, not that profs are pumping you with ideas of grandeur (that may happen too, but I just mean the former). A subliminal understanding of the field as individually driven. (and not necessarily by the client as we find out after we start working, as x-jla mentions)
proto -
I still don't know anyone who was 'pushed' into that 'hero architect' ideal. Maybe it was just my professors. My original comments still stands about people to subscribe to that ideal.
Aug 3, 22 3:42 pm ·
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thisisnotmyname
Sole proprietorship is at best a different set of stressors. Those who want/need things like lots of health insurance, vision and dental plans, retirement matches, and frequent paid time off probably shouldn't try it. Ask me how I know!
Aug 3, 22 8:15 pm ·
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Wilma Buttfit
As a sole proprietor getting work isn’t as hard as completing it. I might
Aug 4, 22 11:14 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
As a sole proprietor getting work isn’t as hard as completing it. I might
Aug 4, 22 11:14 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
As a sole proprietor getting work isn’t as hard as completing it. I might
Aug 4, 22 11:14 am ·
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Wilma Buttfit
I want to go back to pretend I’m drafting while sitting in an office workstation while reading gossip and funny rants on archinect. No. No I don’t. Never mind. But yes I’m burned out. I tried to do minimal work for the last few mo the snd just coast. Tried to pick it back up again full time about 2 weeks ago and now burned out again already. Too many problems, too many things go wrong. Not much I can do about it but let it go and change my expectations and be super careful about the work I take and who I engage with. Something I do have control over as a sole p and I don’t as an office staffer. But dog sitting seems to pay so well, I’m tempted.
I'm finally feeling restored after 5 months living in my van down by a series of increasingly exotic and beautiful rivers. No plans to go back to architecture.
I got some medicine. According to the bottle it's supposed to take the entire first prescription's time to start working, but either I'm having a string of good days or that's conservative. Things seem better.
Sneaky, when I started Prozac I felt better immediately even though Prozac doesn’t work that way. But I think mentally the fact that I was taking ahold of the steering wheel of my mental health was what made me feel better and then the Prozac eventually kicked in and started doing its actual work.
That's a good possibility, but my partner pointed out I was humming yesterday. Literally humming. I don't think I've done that in as long as I can remember. Also losing my temper less frequently. It's been a couple weeks, so I'm hopeful that this is the medicine. Otherwise it might end and I'm back to having no real tools to help me.
When I started on Zoloft (another major antidepressant), I also felt better immediately...like within hours. I was later diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and warned that I shouldn't be taking antidepressants without a mood stabilizer. Take it with a grain of salt.
If it's not too personal, what caused you to suspect being bi-polar?
Aug 4, 22 11:51 am ·
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ivanmillya
Oh I never suspected it. I had a girlfriend at the time who got tired of me making self-deprecating suicide jokes and convinced me to see a doctor, where they initially diagnosed me with major depressive disorder, and prescribed me 50mg of Zoloft. It was only after I immediately began a two-month long manic episode that I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
On the up-side, I've been managing it quite well for years, and haven't been on medication for over two years, in massive part what I attribute to very strict daily routine and avoiding potential mental health triggers.
When you say manic, do you mean hyperactivity, aggressive reactions, something else? So far I feel the same, just things don't seem as bleak. I'm glad you got it into balance. Especially the part about not needing the medication anymore. Thats huge.
Aug 4, 22 1:09 pm ·
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ivanmillya
I mean various symptoms of a manic episode as defined by the DSM. My specific symptoms were hyperactivity, fluctuation between boredom and hyperfixations, lack of sleeping, and delusions of grandeur.
It's likely that you're just experiencing the intended elevation of the medication. If you or your loved ones notice any worrying changes in mood or behavior, I'd talk to your doctor. I'm (obviously) not one, so don't take my advice with too much stock, it really just comes from personal experience.
I am burned out on working alone for clients who can't afford the work I'd like to be doing and on working for clients who can afford it but won't allow it because they don't care about their impact on the environment. I am also burned out doing design development and CD drawings. I am taking steps to fix those things and feel good about the future. I should clarify: I feel like I will enjoy my work again soon, once I can do the parts I like and am good at, and get help with the parts I don't want to do anymore. Other aspects of the future I don't feel so good about but I'm doing what I can to help on those fronts.
If it makes you feel any better, I got my copy of your book yesterday and everyone in the office is really eager to go through it. It's the kind of book that I would have bought as a student, but has more, and more in-depth information. Well done!
Thank you! The positive feedback feels good. I hope that as people read through it they find it helpful. Honestly one reason for writing it was selfish, to help pre-qualify my leads. But that wasn’t the main reason of course.
Aug 4, 22 4:29 pm ·
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Non Sequitur
Is it bad that I'm actively pushing my wife to go out with friends on this coming weekend so that I can dig into the book without distractions?
Haha, sounds like a good plan to me! Hopefully with some good beer. I was at a building science conference this week with your guy John Straube--best presentation among a lot of excellent presentations.
Pretty sure I was heading towards burnout a few weeks ago from a combination of ever-changing client changes with no dead-line extensions and serious lack of support staff... but I was looking forward to some vacation so figured this shit would calm down. It didn't since there is no one available to cover when others are away. It does not help that I spend all my vacation isolated from family due to catching covid. I only spent one afternoon with my son while I expected a full week+.
I came back from vacation weak and tired as fuck from covid (still can't taste/smell and my throat is always burning) but I quietly decided that my day stops at 5:05pm. Deadlines are still unmanageable and there is no-one to help out but it's not my job to meet unrealistic deliverables. Ownership misused my time when I had some to spare and never got control of the clients (high end and particular residential). The office is trying to do damage control (we lost 2 staff recently) and offered some raises but have yet to approve them... but I'm above the average for my exp and local so it's not a big deal or generator of stress. Missing out on a few hours with the kiddo is, and he was recently diagnosed with ADHD (another thing to worry about among many others).
My wife's situation is another story. Kiddo concerns aside, she's in the education world and deals with special need cases (autism, ADHD, behaviours) but takes home 50% of what a fresh from college teacher does. Throw in all the covid changes and angry parents, and it's no surprise that everyone in childcare/special needs is leaving their industry (and they are heavily unionized). So I try to keep my shit out of the house as much as possible, hence my desire not to WFH unless it's the only option.
On that note, we're looking to hire in every possible position yet I would say 90% of the resumes we've received are from people outside our country. We're not an international office and have no plans to expand. It's good that we're all so fucking busy but... there has to be some people in our city looking for change of office? probably not.
I feel you on that first paragraph. My problem is that I don't know how to take vacations from work without... well, working. If I ignore my phone and email, then I just get stressed thinking about the possible mountains of back-up I'll have to do when I get back. And if I check/answer these things, then I'm not enjoying my vacation. But at the moment, being understaffed for our workload means that I guess our industry's policy is to enjoy vacation in the little pockets you get, but be ready to jump at any time. It's frustrating.
Don't let the burnout train leave the station without me.
It's been building for a while but it's hard to realize it when it happens so slowly over time. I ended up taking some time off recently to try and destress a bit, but like NS noted above, there's no one to cover when someone is away so it doesn't calm down and it's all still there boiling and building up steam for you when you come back. It's been causing me to look at making some changes to my work situation to have others that can pick up the work when I get too busy. The reality is, I'm in a quasi-managerial role, but I end up doing everything myself because we have no staff for me to manage. For a smaller office, or with fewer projects, it wouldn't be an issue.
On top of that, part of my role is mentoring, education, training, office standards, etc. ... but I have no time for those things when I'm too busy with the other work I have no support for. The result then is my frustration builds as I see staff making dumb mistakes that they should know not to make, but I can't take the time to teach them what they need to know because no one has time for that. Even if I had the time, they don't have the time to spend learning/internalizing it.
In the meantime, we keep losing staff to other opportunities. We're not a bad firm, if anything we're one of the best ones I've worked for ... but we're still overworking staff and ourselves, and there's only so much people can take before they move on. I'm not sure it's much better elsewhere, but we can do better in our practice. I have seen some steps to make this better while I've been here, but the culture persists.
I'm around 75% on board with cutting my ties and going elsewhere too. I've mentioned elsewhere on the forums I've got an opportunity that basically landed in my lap that I'm seriously considering. Started the process to apply and get interviewed so we'll see where it goes and if they make me an offer.
ditto on the time constraints, throwing myself at mentoring training and office standards and seeing some progress, but frustrated when the people who need it most skip out on LnL day to work through lunch and yet another design/Charette effort when they really need to learn how to put a building together. For what it's worth, my efforts (and others) don't go unnoticed, but progress is slow.
Aug 5, 22 8:36 am ·
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reallynotmyname
While it may be almost impossible to do given today's labor shortages, your firm should work towards replacing people who don't want to learn. They are a cancer in an architectural business.
I definitely haven't noticed a presence of slackers in the office. If anything it's the opposite. People are almost too excited to take on things to their ultimate detriment of being spread too thin. There are a few people I could point to as being less willing to learn. The problem is some of them are firm principals/partners and are not likely to be replaced anytime unless they really screw something up. It's likely they feel burned out and push back on anything outside of their immediate comfort zone.
Sounds like you have a good crew! The partner/principal situation is ok as long they don't hold back everyone else by discouraging the development and learning of the other staff.
I agree, I just wish we had more crew to spread the load. Like I said before, there's only so much people can take of being overworked before they decide to move on. I just found out we're losing another talented young architect at the end of this week.
My concern with the partner/principal situation is that I can convince staff that something is important, but then have that be pushed aside by a partner/principal for comfort zone reasons. I've even had one tell me he agrees with me, but still wants to do it his way with all the complications it entails because he likes it better and it's what he's used to. I'm already helping him correct real CA issues associated with having done it his way and trying to point out in the least passive aggressive way possible that these issues are because we documented things his way instead of the way I recommended. I don't hold out hope that he's learning from the mistakes though. He likely sees this as simply part of the process without realizing that we cause these issues rather than prevent them in the first place.
so many stories of burnout, especially from the management side. ive all but decided that for me there is zero incentive to “achieve” more responsibility at an architecture firm. for maybe 10, even 20k, it’s not worth the stress, lack of boundaries, and nonexistent support from above. id rather enjoy the free time I have and pursue other things that make me happy, regardless of the money.
Yup, the idea that "progress" in an office means leaving behind drawing and moving to project management (spreadsheets! yay!) and then to principal/partner (meetings, marketing, bullshit) kind of sucks. Good if you get to work in a place that sees beyond that.
had a client call me at 10:30 pm last night. They decided on the stone that they want. I woke up today at 4:30 am, drove 30 mins to my favorite hiking spot, and did a 2 hour hike. The birds were extra chirpy and the weather was cooler than usual for this time of year. I almost forgot how rude that call was.
We're working through a high-end custom cottage and got a barrage of late night emails from the client regarding their pool and stone selection... then more emails the next morning. I dealt with the frustration by changing projects for a day or so... let them pick their finishes and let me know when done.
Chad, when you are a sole-practitioner, you're business phone is likely to be a cell phone. You work at a firm. At a firm, the firm may have a receptionist to field the calls during office hours or the firm has one of those PITA computerized receptionist switchboard, directory thing and likely such a client would hang up after the first tier or two of the phone "menu" system and go away. Might be convenient to have.
If I don't want some dipsh*t calling the house line, I have a solution from the 1980s and it will almost certainly get rid of them... (dial-up BBS system) after the modem handshake noise starts and they go say to themselves... f*** this. PEACE at last.
We just need an auto-response system on the phone that doesn't bother to collect a voice mail from them at that time at night where it says, "Hey Moron, we're closed you dipsh*t. Stop being a rude f*** and call back during BUSINESS HOURS. Of course that message won't be the one played when business had just closed but more when it's like after 8pm when having dinner and going to bed so you can get up in the morning.
We need something like that for our phones.
Aug 5, 22 3:38 pm ·
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proto
Most mobiles have a Do Not Disturb function that can be set to business hours or some other time criteria.
The other thing that works is publishing office hours in the proposal/contract.
If they think that's rude, then they can go *bleep* themselves because they are rude for calling at such a screwed-up time. We're NOT open 24 hours a day to answer the phones. There's actual phone hours. It's one thing to call within an hour after "closing" time for the phone hours. It's another thing to call when any sensible human being would be sleeping before going back to work in the morning.
PS: DON'T TELL THE F---ING CLIENT THAT YOU MAY BE UP AT THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT WORKING ON THE PROJECT. KEEP THAT TO YOURSELF. OTHERWISE, THE CLIENT *WILL* BOTHER YOU IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT WHEN YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY BE SLEEPING.
Another option for Do Not Disturb message, "Hello Moron, you have reached the Do Not Disturb digital circular file system, we are closed and like normal human beings, we need sleep. You may leave your message after the beep but we will not respond to the message because it will go into the automated digital circular file system, so call back during business hours. BEEP!"
Aug 5, 22 4:03 pm ·
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Wood Guy
I have one cell phone for both personal and business use. I rarely answer it, regardless of who is calling. Nobody seems to get worked up about it. But I do get annoyed when I forget to turn the ringer off and someone calls after normal work hours. For me it's often contractors calling before 7am or after 7pm.
Aug 5, 22 5:06 pm ·
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x-jla
Same. I use a cell for personal and work. I usually let it go to vm if it’s a client calling that late, but I was dozing off and it startled me lol.
Same here. I turn the ringer off, usually. Most of the time, if I don't recognize the number, it goes to vm and if it is important, they'll leave a msg. Then I'll check the vm and go from there.
I have realized that most times, burnout is cuz of bad leadership - who dont really do much, so overpromise. Or they take on the bad energy from the client, and instead of managing the client, they run the employees into the ground
I am not a architect but had my own small construction company for 30 years, where I had to do everything, and then went to work for a good size commercial company as a project superintendent doing 2mil - 30mil dollar projects and I hit my stress wall on Jan. 6th 2022. That is the day I quit.
There were days when I was the super that I could barely get out of bed because I knew how stressful and busy I would be. My phone would blow up at 6:00 every morning with questions or clarifications from subs that I would have to answer. Our PM's would set the schedule but I would have to do the 3 - 5 week look ahead every week for the Owner Architect Contractor meetings and update everyone on the progress or lack of and why. Add on top of that having to approve all submittals and provide a material look ahead.
I wasn't taking care of myself all I did was work, come home to 2hrs. of emails and paperwork on the computer. Of course I drank to much so I could disappear. The silver lining is my wife and grown kids were/are very supportive also when I got more right answers on Jeopardy than my wife was a good day :)
A couple of months after I quit I went to a shrink and after trying various medications and strengths we settled on venlafaxine and it has been working great for me. I no longer have arguments with myself to convince me to get out of bed, make breakfast, take a shower just normal stuff people do automatically. And no more suicidal thoughts.
I started riding my bicycle again and training for a California to South Carolina ride and will be leaving at the end of August with my wife providing the SAG, (support and gear) for food and drinks just like the Tour de France only way slower! I have been wanting to do this ride for 40 years and I finally get to do it.
I will see what happens with my life when I get back.
Depression is a terrible thing. It keeps you from doing the very things that can make you better. It's like you are always pushing the rock up the hill and when it gets near the top something happens and it rolls down only the have you start pushing it up again.
If you are out there and suffering FORCE yourself to get help.
WFH has been fantastic for my work life balance. I get way more done in a day now that I don’t spend 10 hrs a week commuting and all the bullshit that goes with life in the office.
Also helpful is that we have enough people helping that I can focus on the big issues and let others focus on revit drafting, which I don’t really know how to do
Interesting. what about this particular week has you thinking? I've got a few projects on the brink of imploding because 100% of the decisions are locked with one of the partners and they can't spare 4min to answer basic questions (friends of friends type projects, high-design with demanding clients. daily changes, etc) ... even with daily reminders over several weeks/months. Construction is expected to start end of month and we're no-where close to issuing drawings (and don't have the staff to do it). I'm starting to think I should keep my eyes open as well.
Non, wow, I thought you were there for life. I'm sure you would be in high demand if you looked around! A.N., I am also curious what happened this week.
WG, just some odd inter-office/client politics. Lingering early covid pet projects from well-off clients that suddenly need 1:2 details of everything while still making massive design changes... and formwork starts in 2 weeks. It will pass but we're also waiting on a massive project competition. I am a key member of that team so it would be foolish not to wait and see on those results.
Wow, sounds stressful. Good luck on the design competition, though.
Aug 11, 22 12:45 pm ·
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atelier nobody
Thanks, everyone! I'd love to be more specific, but honestly right now I'm so frustrated that I'd just end up going off on several pages of verbal diarrhea... Maybe over the weekend I'll have calmed down enough to speak coherently.
I realize I'm resurrecting a thread that's almost a year old, but I searched "burnout" and this was top of the list. The post above references verbal diarrhea, and I typed out a doozy, but who cares. This profession takes all you have to give, then taps it's foot and wonders why you can't just give more. I'm pretty sure it's killing me. The fucked up thing is I still convince myself I enjoy it.
I made a commitment to myself this year that, regardless of the work I have on my plate, I won't work weekends on active client projects. The only work I do on weekends (if at all) is on pro-bono smaller things now. It's helped a lot with the constant take-take-take of this profession. For me at least.
It is heartning in a goulish kind of way to see that we are all in the same boat. Jovan, I took my weekends back also and now Friday is starting to mean something again.
Burnout Check-In
So I was at our state's AIA conference this weekend, where one of the sessions I attended was specifically about burnout, and tips to avoid it, given by Michael LaValley. In addition, nearly every session this weekend mentioned the recent troubles of burnout and the "great resignation" that we've been seeing in the past couple of years.
I'm hoping this thread can be a place to discuss your experiences with burnout, and your own personal journeys through escaping the struggle, whether that's been making changes that helped you stay in architecture, or whether it's been deciding to leave the profession altogether.
My own experiences have shown a cycle of stress that has led me to switch firms three times in four and a half years. I would feel that I wasn't being adequately challenged at a position, and the long hours would lead to dissatisfaction with the general city I was living in, to the point that I would give my two-four weeks and find a new city and new firm to work in.
I've eased my troubles by branching out to find new hobbies, connecting with my local AIA community, and ultimately, finding fulfillment outside of my job.
How about all of you?
I’m severely burnt out, more by the world than by my job. My job’s fine (I’m not practicing architecture).
I’m hoping to try lexapro.
That is a completely valid reason for burnout. I've been in a certain buzzword-left-wing political circle for a long time, which can make personal life really discouraging at times. I know that what I've done (to marginal success) is to go and volunteer some of my time working with local groups that make a difference in my community, while also helping myself feel as though I'm "walking the walk" of my personal politics.
Hope things look up for you soon Donna! Feel free to reach out!
I've given up on the world Donna, especially the state of affairs in this country, where it feels more and more that we are just left on our own to figure shit out, without any real social net.
On top of it, coming to terms that my work is basically just a paycheck at this point does not help either.
I have been using bike rides (and all the geekery that comes with it) as therapy to deal with all of this crap.
Part of it is the constant mill of news our tech provides us but it also feels like people are less friendly, maybe because of all the tech. Either way, connecting with people and casual social interactions I find go a long way to helping one feel good. Exercise is also good. Basically we're 15th century people living in the 21st century. Best of luck to our beloved little blue pearl.
why are you so burnt out?
let's not mix two entirely separate things. If I jump ship to better positions, clearly I have more in the tank to step into my more (presumably) demanding role. That's not burnout, that's promotion stagnation and dissatisfaction. It took a good 6 months after grad school for my own body to catch up to normal sleep cycles and for me to realize I was constantly running at 70% at best. That's burnout, and you can't start healing from it until you severely alter the demands of your situation. A job switch can sometimes do that for you, but recognize that it'll take longer to get back to 100% if you're still working out on a sprained ankle, so to speak.
I'm slow walking out of the profession, whether that takes a year or two or three depends on how I can speed it up/ afford the financial hit (or a bad economy will do it for me). Tried firm changes to see if it was the firm or profession, found out its the latter. You can only do so much exercise or meditation or substances to blunt the burnout but it eventually breaks through all of that if there is fundamental lack of desire of continuing on the current path.
There are many opportunities that are adjacent to architecture that pay better and have a better work/life balance. Construction, Owner's representative, development manager, ... what type of design work have you been working on?
was starting to move into more of a management role when the pandemic hit. My wife was required to be in person and I was responsible for majority of childcare in addition to working 50+ hours a week. It did not work. I was being pushed to do/learn a whole bunch of new things at work and I couldn’t do it.
With burn out people have a hard time learning new things - retaining information - taking risks. It was the absolute worst time for me in terms of my career development and I’m still recovering. I used to be a lot more confident but now I’m second guessing everything to the point where I can’t move things forward without checking in with someone.
I'm burnt out as well. A lot of things causing an incredible amount of stress. Work is a small part of it. However with the 'interesting' clients we're getting work is pushing me over the edge. I ALMOST lost my cool with a collogue who harshly and publicly reprimanded me for some office stuff. I had to remind myself that the collogue is going though some family stuff but damn, I almost gave my two weeks.
Foolish on my part.
Family is all that matters. Everything else I take pretty lightly.
are we set up a little for this given the way the hero architect archetype was indirectly pushed in our introduction to the profession? are we ever going to be happy unless we are all sole proprietors?
or is it that modern business culture in general is toxic/sociopathic?
both?
Neither.
I don't know anyone who was directly or indirectly pushed to the 'hero architect' idea. The only people I've met who subscribe to that idea are egotistical douchebags who aren't good architects.
In the US I think burnout is more due to overall stress and the stigma of caring for a persons mental health. Not having access to affordable / free health care is also a big part of this.
Sole proprietorship helps, but at the end of the day you still have clients to answer to. There is no situation in a service profession where you are completely free from a “boss”. The only real difference in a sole prop is that you can drink beer in the office.
I'd think being a sole proprietorship would be super stressful. You have to find all the work!
@chad, "Hero archetype" insofar as studio is set up as individuals designing, not that profs are pumping you with ideas of grandeur (that may happen too, but I just mean the former). A subliminal understanding of the field as individually driven. (and not necessarily by the client as we find out after we start working, as x-jla mentions)
proto - I still don't know anyone who was 'pushed' into that 'hero architect' ideal. Maybe it was just my professors. My original comments still stands about people to subscribe to that ideal.
Sole proprietorship is at best a different set of stressors. Those who want/need things like lots of health insurance, vision and dental plans, retirement matches, and frequent paid time off probably shouldn't try it. Ask me how I know!
As a sole proprietor getting work isn’t as hard as completing it. I might
As a sole proprietor getting work isn’t as hard as completing it. I might
As a sole proprietor getting work isn’t as hard as completing it. I might
I want to go back to pretend I’m drafting while sitting in an office workstation while reading gossip and funny rants on archinect. No. No I don’t. Never mind. But yes I’m burned out. I tried to do minimal work for the last few mo the snd just coast. Tried to pick it back up again full time about 2 weeks ago and now burned out again already. Too many problems, too many things go wrong. Not much I can do about it but let it go and change my expectations and be super careful about the work I take and who I engage with. Something I do have control over as a sole p and I don’t as an office staffer. But dog sitting seems to pay so well, I’m tempted.
My previous firm burned me out completely and had me questioning remaining in architecture. In fact, I’m in two articles talking about it.
Now? The office isn’t burning me out, the world and interpersonal relationships are.
Where'd you move to?
I'm finally feeling restored after 5 months living in my van down by a series of increasingly exotic and beautiful rivers. No plans to go back to architecture.
I got some medicine. According to the bottle it's supposed to take the entire first prescription's time to start working, but either I'm having a string of good days or that's conservative. Things seem better.
Sneaky, when I started Prozac I felt better immediately even though Prozac doesn’t work that way. But I think mentally the fact that I was taking ahold of the steering wheel of my mental health was what made me feel better and then the Prozac eventually kicked in and started doing its actual work.
That's a good possibility, but my partner pointed out I was humming yesterday. Literally humming. I don't think I've done that in as long as I can remember. Also losing my temper less frequently. It's been a couple weeks, so I'm hopeful that this is the medicine. Otherwise it might end and I'm back to having no real tools to help me.
When I started on Zoloft (another major antidepressant), I also felt better immediately...like within hours. I was later diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and warned that I shouldn't be taking antidepressants without a mood stabilizer. Take it with a grain of salt.
If it's not too personal, what caused you to suspect being bi-polar?
Oh I never suspected it. I had a girlfriend at the time who got tired of me making self-deprecating suicide jokes and convinced me to see a doctor, where they initially diagnosed me with major depressive disorder, and prescribed me 50mg of Zoloft. It was only after I immediately began a two-month long manic episode that I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
On the up-side, I've been managing it quite well for years, and haven't been on medication for over two years, in massive part what I attribute to very strict daily routine and avoiding potential mental health triggers.
When you say manic, do you mean hyperactivity, aggressive reactions, something else? So far I feel the same, just things don't seem as bleak. I'm glad you got it into balance. Especially the part about not needing the medication anymore. Thats huge.
I mean various symptoms of a manic episode as defined by the DSM. My specific symptoms were hyperactivity, fluctuation between boredom and hyperfixations, lack of sleeping, and delusions of grandeur.
It's likely that you're just experiencing the intended elevation of the medication. If you or your loved ones notice any worrying changes in mood or behavior, I'd talk to your doctor. I'm (obviously) not one, so don't take my advice with too much stock, it really just comes from personal experience.
I appreciate the sharing. Always good to have first hand experiences to reflect on.
I am burned out on working alone for clients who can't afford the work I'd like to be doing and on working for clients who can afford it but won't allow it because they don't care about their impact on the environment. I am also burned out doing design development and CD drawings. I am taking steps to fix those things and feel good about the future. I should clarify: I feel like I will enjoy my work again soon, once I can do the parts I like and am good at, and get help with the parts I don't want to do anymore. Other aspects of the future I don't feel so good about but I'm doing what I can to help on those fronts.
If it makes you feel any better, I got my copy of your book yesterday and everyone in the office is really eager to go through it. It's the kind of book that I would have bought as a student, but has more, and more in-depth information. Well done!
Thank you! The positive feedback feels good. I hope that as people read through it they find it helpful. Honestly one reason for writing it was selfish, to help pre-qualify my leads. But that wasn’t the main reason of course.
Is it bad that I'm actively pushing my wife to go out with friends on this coming weekend so that I can dig into the book without distractions?
Haha, sounds like a good plan to me! Hopefully with some good beer. I was at a building science conference this week with your guy John Straube--best presentation among a lot of excellent presentations.
I've been following the above convoy.
Pretty sure I was heading towards burnout a few weeks ago from a combination of ever-changing client changes with no dead-line extensions and serious lack of support staff... but I was looking forward to some vacation so figured this shit would calm down. It didn't since there is no one available to cover when others are away. It does not help that I spend all my vacation isolated from family due to catching covid. I only spent one afternoon with my son while I expected a full week+.
I came back from vacation weak and tired as fuck from covid (still can't taste/smell and my throat is always burning) but I quietly decided that my day stops at 5:05pm. Deadlines are still unmanageable and there is no-one to help out but it's not my job to meet unrealistic deliverables. Ownership misused my time when I had some to spare and never got control of the clients (high end and particular residential). The office is trying to do damage control (we lost 2 staff recently) and offered some raises but have yet to approve them... but I'm above the average for my exp and local so it's not a big deal or generator of stress. Missing out on a few hours with the kiddo is, and he was recently diagnosed with ADHD (another thing to worry about among many others).
My wife's situation is another story. Kiddo concerns aside, she's in the education world and deals with special need cases (autism, ADHD, behaviours) but takes home 50% of what a fresh from college teacher does. Throw in all the covid changes and angry parents, and it's no surprise that everyone in childcare/special needs is leaving their industry (and they are heavily unionized). So I try to keep my shit out of the house as much as possible, hence my desire not to WFH unless it's the only option.
On that note, we're looking to hire in every possible position yet I would say 90% of the resumes we've received are from people outside our country. We're not an international office and have no plans to expand. It's good that we're all so fucking busy but... there has to be some people in our city looking for change of office? probably not.
I feel you on that first paragraph. My problem is that I don't know how to take vacations from work without... well, working. If I ignore my phone and email, then I just get stressed thinking about the possible mountains of back-up I'll have to do when I get back. And if I check/answer these things, then I'm not enjoying my vacation. But at the moment, being understaffed for our workload means that I guess our industry's policy is to enjoy vacation in the little pockets you get, but be ready to jump at any time. It's frustrating.
Get the prospective employees visas and move them to canada ... easier said than done but could be a win-win for all
Don't let the burnout train leave the station without me.
It's been building for a while but it's hard to realize it when it happens so slowly over time. I ended up taking some time off recently to try and destress a bit, but like NS noted above, there's no one to cover when someone is away so it doesn't calm down and it's all still there boiling and building up steam for you when you come back. It's been causing me to look at making some changes to my work situation to have others that can pick up the work when I get too busy. The reality is, I'm in a quasi-managerial role, but I end up doing everything myself because we have no staff for me to manage. For a smaller office, or with fewer projects, it wouldn't be an issue.
On top of that, part of my role is mentoring, education, training, office standards, etc. ... but I have no time for those things when I'm too busy with the other work I have no support for. The result then is my frustration builds as I see staff making dumb mistakes that they should know not to make, but I can't take the time to teach them what they need to know because no one has time for that. Even if I had the time, they don't have the time to spend learning/internalizing it.
In the meantime, we keep losing staff to other opportunities. We're not a bad firm, if anything we're one of the best ones I've worked for ... but we're still overworking staff and ourselves, and there's only so much people can take before they move on. I'm not sure it's much better elsewhere, but we can do better in our practice. I have seen some steps to make this better while I've been here, but the culture persists.
I'm around 75% on board with cutting my ties and going elsewhere too. I've mentioned elsewhere on the forums I've got an opportunity that basically landed in my lap that I'm seriously considering. Started the process to apply and get interviewed so we'll see where it goes and if they make me an offer.
ditto on the time constraints, throwing myself at mentoring training and office standards and seeing some progress, but frustrated when the people who need it most skip out on LnL day to work through lunch and yet another design/Charette effort when they really need to learn how to put a building together. For what it's worth, my efforts (and others) don't go unnoticed, but progress is slow.
While it may be almost impossible to do given today's labor shortages, your firm should work towards replacing people who don't want to learn. They are a cancer in an architectural business.
The presence of slackers will lead to burn out of the doers in the office.
I definitely haven't noticed a presence of slackers in the office. If anything it's the opposite. People are almost too excited to take on things to their ultimate detriment of being spread too thin. There are a few people I could point to as being less willing to learn. The problem is some of them are firm principals/partners and are not likely to be replaced anytime unless they really screw something up. It's likely they feel burned out and push back on anything outside of their immediate comfort zone.
Sounds like you have a good crew! The partner/principal situation is ok as long they don't hold back everyone else by discouraging the development and learning of the other staff.
I agree, I just wish we had more crew to spread the load. Like I said before, there's only so much people can take of being overworked before they decide to move on. I just found out we're losing another talented young architect at the end of this week.
My concern with the partner/principal situation is that I can convince staff that something is important, but then have that be pushed aside by a partner/principal for comfort zone reasons. I've even had one tell me he agrees with me, but still wants to do it his way with all the complications it entails because he likes it better and it's what he's used to. I'm already helping him correct real CA issues associated with having done it his way and trying to point out in the least passive aggressive way possible that these issues are because we documented things his way instead of the way I recommended. I don't hold out hope that he's learning from the mistakes though. He likely sees this as simply part of the process without realizing that we cause these issues rather than prevent them in the first place.
so many stories of burnout, especially from the management side. ive all but decided that for me there is zero incentive to “achieve” more responsibility at an architecture firm. for maybe 10, even 20k, it’s not worth the stress, lack of boundaries, and nonexistent support from above. id rather enjoy the free time I have and pursue other things that make me happy, regardless of the money.
Yup, the idea that "progress" in an office means leaving behind drawing and moving to project management (spreadsheets! yay!) and then to principal/partner (meetings, marketing, bullshit) kind of sucks. Good if you get to work in a place that sees beyond that.
had a client call me at 10:30 pm last night. They decided on the stone that they want. I woke up today at 4:30 am, drove 30 mins to my favorite hiking spot, and did a 2 hour hike. The birds were extra chirpy and the weather was cooler than usual for this time of year. I almost forgot how rude that call was.
I don't give out my private phone number to clients. Ever.
We're working through a high-end custom cottage and got a barrage of late night emails from the client regarding their pool and stone selection... then more emails the next morning. I dealt with the frustration by changing projects for a day or so... let them pick their finishes and let me know when done.
Chad, when you are a sole-practitioner, you're business phone is likely to be a cell phone. You work at a firm. At a firm, the firm may have a receptionist to field the calls during office hours or the firm has one of those PITA computerized receptionist switchboard, directory thing and likely such a client would hang up after the first tier or two of the phone "menu" system and go away. Might be convenient to have.
If I don't want some dipsh*t calling the house line, I have a solution from the 1980s and it will almost certainly get rid of them... (dial-up BBS system) after the modem handshake noise starts and they go say to themselves... f*** this. PEACE at last.
We just need an auto-response system on the phone that doesn't bother to collect a voice mail from them at that time at night where it says, "Hey Moron, we're closed you dipsh*t. Stop being a rude f*** and call back during BUSINESS HOURS. Of course that message won't be the one played when business had just closed but more when it's like after 8pm when having dinner and going to bed so you can get up in the morning.
We need something like that for our phones.
Most mobiles have a Do Not Disturb function that can be set to business hours or some other time criteria.
The other thing that works is publishing office hours in the proposal/contract.
If they think that's rude, then they can go *bleep* themselves because they are rude for calling at such a screwed-up time. We're NOT open 24 hours a day to answer the phones. There's actual phone hours. It's one thing to call within an hour after "closing" time for the phone hours. It's another thing to call when any sensible human being would be sleeping before going back to work in the morning.
PS: DON'T TELL THE F---ING CLIENT THAT YOU MAY BE UP AT THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT WORKING ON THE PROJECT. KEEP THAT TO YOURSELF. OTHERWISE, THE CLIENT *WILL* BOTHER YOU IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT WHEN YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY BE SLEEPING.
proto, yeah do not disturb, yeah.... I like the ability of a custom "Do NOT disturb message" for that.
Another option for Do Not Disturb message, "Hello Moron, you have reached the Do Not Disturb digital circular file system, we are closed and like normal human beings, we need sleep. You may leave your message after the beep but we will not respond to the message because it will go into the automated digital circular file system, so call back during business hours. BEEP!"
I have one cell phone for both personal and business use. I rarely answer it, regardless of who is calling. Nobody seems to get worked up about it. But I do get annoyed when I forget to turn the ringer off and someone calls after normal work hours. For me it's often contractors calling before 7am or after 7pm.
Same. I use a cell for personal and work. I usually let it go to vm if it’s a client calling that late, but I was dozing off and it startled me lol.
Same here. I turn the ringer off, usually. Most of the time, if I don't recognize the number, it goes to vm and if it is important, they'll leave a msg. Then I'll check the vm and go from there.
I have realized that most times, burnout is cuz of bad leadership - who dont really do much, so overpromise. Or they take on the bad energy from the client, and instead of managing the client, they run the employees into the ground
I'd say that's exactly what happens to us sole proprietors as well.
Is your "leadership" the client, then?
No, me!
lol
Yeah, the whole reason I'm not self-employed is because I know I'm a shitty boss and hit-or-miss as an employee...
I am not a architect but had my own small construction company for 30 years, where I had to do everything, and then went to work for a good size commercial company as a project superintendent doing 2mil - 30mil dollar projects and I hit my stress wall on Jan. 6th 2022. That is the day I quit.
There were days when I was the super that I could barely get out of bed because I knew how stressful and busy I would be. My phone would blow up at 6:00 every morning with questions or clarifications from subs that I would have to answer. Our PM's would set the schedule but I would have to do the 3 - 5 week look ahead every week for the Owner Architect Contractor meetings and update everyone on the progress or lack of and why. Add on top of that having to approve all submittals and provide a material look ahead.
I wasn't taking care of myself all I did was work, come home to 2hrs. of emails and paperwork on the computer. Of course I drank to much so I could disappear. The silver lining is my wife and grown kids were/are very supportive also when I got more right answers on Jeopardy than my wife was a good day :)
A couple of months after I quit I went to a shrink and after trying various medications and strengths we settled on venlafaxine and it has been working great for me. I no longer have arguments with myself to convince me to get out of bed, make breakfast, take a shower just normal stuff people do automatically. And no more suicidal thoughts.
I started riding my bicycle again and training for a California to South Carolina ride and will be leaving at the end of August with my wife providing the SAG, (support and gear) for food and drinks just like the Tour de France only way slower! I have been wanting to do this ride for 40 years and I finally get to do it.
I will see what happens with my life when I get back.
Depression is a terrible thing. It keeps you from doing the very things that can make you better. It's like you are always pushing the rock up the hill and when it gets near the top something happens and it rolls down only the have you start pushing it up again.
If you are out there and suffering FORCE yourself to get help.
If I didn't I would not be here today.
Take care.
CA to SC bike ride? OMG that is so awesome. Wish I could join you!
Go do it, are you familiar with the adventure cycling association?
https://www.adventurecycling.org/
Nice SP, I am not in THAT great of a shape yet, but maybe soon!
Also, godoit, what gear are you using for this epic ride?
Sneaky, yes I have heard of ACA and will be following their routes, mostly. Here is another resource https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/?o=3d2 and I will be using this trip as a guide since I will be doing a credit card tour also. https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1&doc_id=2522&v=y9
SameOld, I will be riding this bike, the Chambery http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek-Fisher-Klein-Lemond/2007lemond.pdf
Awesome! I have a personal connection to ACA, I'm glad to see you're finding them useful.
Beautiful Bike!
yea the colors are nice. it is old and there are better bikes out there but they won't get me up hills any faster. plus lemond is my favorite
WFH has been fantastic for my work life balance. I get way more done in a day now that I don’t spend 10 hrs a week commuting and all the bullshit that goes with life in the office.
Also helpful is that we have enough people helping that I can focus on the big issues and let others focus on revit drafting, which I don’t really know how to do
I was already putting out a few feelers for opportunities, but this week has convinced me it's definitely time to move on.
Oh? Do tell.
Interesting. what about this particular week has you thinking? I've got a few projects on the brink of imploding because 100% of the decisions are locked with one of the partners and they can't spare 4min to answer basic questions (friends of friends type projects, high-design with demanding clients. daily changes, etc) ... even with daily reminders over several weeks/months. Construction is expected to start end of month and we're no-where close to issuing drawings (and don't have the staff to do it). I'm starting to think I should keep my eyes open as well.
Non, wow, I thought you were there for life. I'm sure you would be in high demand if you looked around! A.N., I am also curious what happened this week.
Did I miss a post from Non?
WG, just some odd inter-office/client politics. Lingering early covid pet projects from well-off clients that suddenly need 1:2 details of everything while still making massive design changes... and formwork starts in 2 weeks. It will pass but we're also waiting on a massive project competition. I am a key member of that team so it would be foolish not to wait and see on those results.
Wow, sounds stressful. Good luck on the design competition, though.
Thanks, everyone! I'd love to be more specific, but honestly right now I'm so frustrated that I'd just end up going off on several pages of verbal diarrhea... Maybe over the weekend I'll have calmed down enough to speak coherently.
I understand atelier. I hope things improve for you.
I wouldn't worry about posting the story here though Most of the posts on this site are verbal diarrhea. ;)
I realize I'm resurrecting a thread that's almost a year old, but I searched "burnout" and this was top of the list. The post above references verbal diarrhea, and I typed out a doozy, but who cares. This profession takes all you have to give, then taps it's foot and wonders why you can't just give more. I'm pretty sure it's killing me. The fucked up thing is I still convince myself I enjoy it.
It's definitely killing me, or maybe it's me killing me, but man my neck and back are at its limits.
I made a commitment to myself this year that, regardless of the work I have on my plate, I won't work weekends on active client projects. The only work I do on weekends (if at all) is on pro-bono smaller things now. It's helped a lot with the constant take-take-take of this profession. For me at least.
How about not work weekends at all? It just not worth it
It is heartning in a goulish kind of way to see that we are all in the same boat. Jovan, I took my weekends back also and now Friday is starting to mean something again.
And come Monday:
Have fun with that one.
I think I'd simply shed a single tear and pre-emptively turn my phone off for the rest of the day.
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